Dell, HP Competition Heats Up

[Janak Parekh]

The Inquirer is running a <a href="http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7762">semi-humorous article and comic</a> on the fact that the Axim may be undercutting sales of more expensive HP PDAs.<br /><br />"A reseller of PCs in an eastern state of our Union has provided me with some collateral damage that HP is providing to combat what it sees as the threat of Unholy Dell penetrating uncharted parts of the IT market."<br /><br />In the meantime, HP says that it's ready to compete with Dell on a broad array of pricing, including computers, notebooks, and hopefully PDAs. <a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1001-984507.html?tag=fd_top">This article</a> suggests that the new post-merger HP will be able to compete long-term.<br /><br />Personally, I think the competition is good. While the Axim might initially undercut the iPaqs, in the long-term that will encourage HP to drive down the cost, which hopefully translates to a win for consumers.

[Jonathon Watkins]

Personally, I think the competition is good.

Yes. HP lying about Dell leaves a sour taste in the mouth. "Squeeze every bit of cost and quality out", "Low priced inferior products" :evil: :roll:

Nice one HP - you lost on price and quality, so you throw dirt at the competition. HP had standards and stood for something good once. Looks like some of the CPQ spirit has entered it rather than vice versa.

(Yes I did used to do work for HP while they were still good).

[heov]

i like competition for the high end... with dell releasing these ppc's at such a low price, OEMs will, instead of just lowering their prices, find out how to make the ppc's cheaper.

Thus were get NAND flash, etc. I'm afraid that when HP is going to release more competition against dell, they're going to release crappy prodcuts w/ cheap batteries, screens, etc... and they're too greedy to just lower their margins.

THat's my $0.02

[Janak Parekh]

Gerbil, is HP really distributing that flyer? If so, they should be smacked upside the head. I thought it was more humor -- you can never tell with the Inquirer & Co. :)

--janak

[Jonathan1]

Can someone scan that flyer? Seriously. I want to see it. I smell lawsuit in the wind if it really exists. *sniff sniff*…smells like bacon
If you want to talk about quality lets talk the iPaq 3635. The initial problems were as long as my arm and I got some fairly long arms.

Dell does the wait and see. They observe exactly what the problems are in first gen devices and improves on them. Yes the Axims are far from perfect but they ARE a far sight better then Compaq's first attempt at the Pocket PC. Even if people aren't fans of Dell they have to admit to the fact that Dell is going to eventually do one thing, if nothing else, to the Pocket PC market and that is drive down prices. Dell is the best thing to hit the Pocket PC market since the iPaq. It may not be revolutionary in the hardware department but it sure as heck is in price.

[Skoobouy]

Actually, as a staunch Jornada fan, I think that the iPaq 1900 is the very best thing to happen to HP in a long time. True, I think that the underclocked processor and the small headphone jack were mistakes, but by and large I believe that the iPaq (with a good overclocker) beats the Dell for anyone not already invested in Compact Flash.

I sort of represent a niche market, though: college student. I'm not a Joe-six-pack and I'm not a corporate buyer, so I have to deconstruct myself a little. But from this vantage point, it looks to me like the iPaq 1900 is a winner as an entry-level consumer machine, while the Dell would be best perhaps only for those who need to update a CF-based PDA without changing their storage format.

I will always be an opponent of the mainstream iPaq line though, all the way from 3600 to 5500. The size of an unsleeved iPaq means that HP/Compaq can never justify (to me) omitting Compact Flash. Sleeves are not a feature - they're a loyalty trap. And I think, perhaps, that this may be why the cheap Dells are viewed as a viable alternative even to the beefcake Bluetooth toting, superIR, fingerprint reading iPaqs.

[Rirath]

Skoobouy, care to give any reasons to back up your opinion the low end Ipaq is better than the Dell? Let me guess, you have just one. Size. Also, why are college students are a niche market and what college student isn't joe six-pack? ;)

[johncruise]

HP? Compete with Dell's pricing? HA! This I got to see. HP and Compaq are known for setting the pricing standards

[kaiden.1]

Well; this is typical. When ever someone comes along and looms to threaten your pocket book and your postion; it is very typical of people to start throwing dirt, and everything else to make the other look bad. That means only one thing. HP is scared of DELL! In fact I am a business owner and I see this happen a lot sadly enough in the business world. Actually; good for DELL! It onlymeans that they are headed in the right direction and that what they are doing is working and working very well. HP on the other hand, by reverting to childish whining and bad mouth dirt slinging makes them look bad; even really bad! (In the long run HP this is going to hurt you...... you don't sling mud without getting a lot of that mud on YOU!) :lol:

DELL has earned it's place with the public over the years and that is why they are trusted and where they are at, not because they come out with cheaper pricing...... come o; it is absolutely stupid to point a finger and cry because you fear that your going to loose market share. What HP should be asking themselves is what is DELL doing right that is causing it's customers to be loyal to them so that when a new product comes out, regardless of what that product might be (this just happens to be a PPC) that that same loyal customer (JOE PUBLIC who has a great impression of DELL) that they don't think twice about picking one up! It has nothing to do that garbage idea of poor Quality and Cheap pricing. It has everything to do with what they (DELL) have done right for many years and have thus earned the trust of the public so that they don't even question the product, they just buy it.

I just have to laugh; this isn't going to buy HP anything, it is really going to set them behind; and in the long run because people can see through this mess as utter garbage; it will bring DELL further into the spot light of attention and get even more people to look at DELL! BAD marketing for HP!!!! really BAD!!!! Great for DELL!!!!! Just you watch...... Marketing is a method that is always the same and bad marketing does not and will not get you ahead of your competition. IT only stirs up the pot for them. :D

Kudos to DELL for it all..... I don't even have a DELL PPC, but I have been seriously concidering it and this type of play only makes me think further and further back about ever getting an HP anything! Dirty people always get dirty and eventually are found to be dirty! What a bid dissapointment in HP!!!!!!! :?

[Roosterman]

Actually, as a staunch Jornada fan, I think that the iPaq 1900 is the very best thing to happen to HP in a long time. True, I think that the underclocked processor and the small headphone jack were mistakes, but by and large I believe that the iPaq (with a good overclocker) beats the Dell for anyone not already invested in Compact Flash.

I sort of represent a niche market, though: college student. I'm not a Joe-six-pack and I'm not a corporate buyer, so I have to deconstruct myself a little. But from this vantage point, it looks to me like the iPaq 1900 is a winner as an entry-level consumer machine, while the Dell would be best perhaps only for those who need to update a CF-based PDA without changing their storage format.

I will always be an opponent of the mainstream iPaq line though, all the way from 3600 to 5500. The size of an unsleeved iPaq means that HP/Compaq can never justify (to me) omitting Compact Flash. Sleeves are not a feature - they're a loyalty trap. And I think, perhaps, that this may be why the cheap Dells are viewed as a viable alternative even to the beefcake Bluetooth toting, superIR, fingerprint reading iPaqs.
I hope your not leaning to be so sterotypic in school. You made some pretty broad assumptions on sterotypes you've picked up some where. I am neither "Joe lunch box" or someone who "needs to update a CF-based PDA without changing their storage format". I am someone who couldn't justify spending $500 for a glorified address book that has been called an IPAQ. I am someone who can evaluate features compared to price and make an itelligent informed decision. The Axim offered the best features and expandiblity of anything on the market IMO.

[PapaSmurfDan]

Actually, as a staunch Jornada fan, I think that the iPaq 1900 is the very best thing to happen to HP in a long time. True, I think that the underclocked processor and the small headphone jack were mistakes, but by and large I believe that the iPaq (with a good overclocker) beats the Dell for anyone not already invested in Compact Flash.

I sort of represent a niche market, though: college student. I'm not a Joe-six-pack and I'm not a corporate buyer, so I have to deconstruct myself a little. But from this vantage point, it looks to me like the iPaq 1900 is a winner as an entry-level consumer machine, while the Dell would be best perhaps only for those who need to update a CF-based PDA without changing their storage format.



First of all PDAs are a niche market, and appear they will continue that way for a while. College students are not a niche market for PDAs! Being a college student, I feel that we are probally one of the biggest markets for PDA's. I have ditched my laptop, and use carry around my Axim and Pocketop keyboard everywhere. And it is the fact that I can take around my PPC everywhere in my pocket which makes it very valuable. After playing with an 1900 and owning an Axim, the two are targeted at different ends of the spectrum. The Axim is a great overall device where expandabilty and battery life outweight size, while the 1910 is a great tiny device to convert Palm users and people want the smallest device. I would find the 1910 a limted device for myself, while an Axim can fit either an entry level user or a power user. BTW, CF has lots of advantages over SD, and allways will, just becuase you don't own any CF cards doesn't mean CF is useless (cheaper memory, wifi cards, faster transfers, etc). But that is for a different decussion.

Sleeves are not a feature - they're a loyalty trap. And I think, perhaps, that this may be why the cheap Dells are viewed as a viable alternative even to the beefcake Bluetooth toting, superIR, fingerprint reading iPaqs.

HP/Compaq, Dell, Palm, Toshiba, Sony, et. al are after one thing, Your money. Lets not forget that. I have never thought about the sleeves as a "loyalty trap" but now that you mentioned it, it does seem like that. But the fact that HP/Compaq has kept the interface the same makes it less of a trap.

Becuase Dell is selling direct, they don't have to deal with the retail chain and markup structure. If you think Compuka[sic] or HP are not making money on each PDA sale, it is time to come back to reality. That is why HP could never get a comparable Ipaq at the Axim's price range in the retail market. I would bet if Dell had something like a 1910, it would sell for 175-200 bucks and they would still make a pretty penny.

HP is not worried as much on consumer sales, but more so on corperate sales. Dell allready has a strong presence in the corperate and education markets. Now it is very easy for them to bundle Axim's with orders of new PC's and cut away HP's market overnight. I could see them doing an offer like: Buy 15 PC's and we will toss in an 300mhz Axim for 50 bucks each. This penitration is not going to be immediate due to the lack of a high-end intergrated with everything model, becuase there are very valid reasons in the corperate environment to have intergrated WiFi,BT, and a fingerprint scanner. But with the splash they have made in the last few months, people everywhere are taking a look at the Axim as a Palm/Clie/Ipaq replacement.

Dell hasn't done anything new. They are doing what they do best, manufactor, market, and sell computer equipment directly. They saw that the timing to break in the PDA market was good, and took advantage of it. They used thier close partnerships with OEM's such as Intel and MS to build a competitive device. They see both corperate and retail markets, and talyored a device that is suitable for both. Frankly, the Axim is pretty damn conservitive in styling, the only person I think who noticed that my PPC was an Axim was another fellow PPC user thinking of getting one. I predict that they will market the Axim as a 'Do you want fries with that?' type question in the near future once the intital demand for the X5 subdues. The only thing I think Dell did not expect was the popularity of the device to be this high.

Dell has yet to dethrone HP from the King of PPC's. However, I do believe an X3 to compete with the Ipaq 19xx's is more likely to occur first than an X7 to compete with the 54xx's. Once Dell secures the entry-level and mid-range market, they will try to dethrone the Ipaq line. However, step back and take a look at the PDA market and you will realize that most of the sales are in the entry-level and mid-range devices not the high-end. Dethroning the 5450 at first does not help Dell secure a good chunk of the market, it may give them better press but they allready have enough of that as is. HP needs to be scared of Dell because HP negliected the lowend PPC market for so long. Why did it take this long to get a device like the 1910? I bet it has everything to do with the Axim and V35's.

There is one thing Dell could do to secure a big chunk of the total PDA market. Release a grayscale Axim X5 or X3 at the 125-150 price range and deliver a huge blow to the lowend palm market. This would probally make both Sony and Palm scared s***less. Dell will gain the recogintion as an major PDA player, and MS will gain the market share they have wanted to have with PPC (and maybe they will see that spending a bit more time on PPC may help them reach the one common MS goal of market domanince). At one point, Dell was giving away free Palm m105's with every PC and Laptop as a special. Just imagine the impact if they gave away a free grayscale Axim with every PC. I still think there are times when a grayscale screen is nice to have and not everyone needs a color screen. I would of bought a cheap grayscale device if I had the same features as a 300mhz Axim if I could.

One thing is constant, Dell wants to and will become a big player in the PDA market. I just don't think they expected to become one this quick.

My 2 cents.
-Dan

[Will T Smith]

I absoluetly love when all my predictions come true.

What the HP spin fails to acknowledge is that the Dell Axim looks and feels like a ....

A JORNADA .......

Could it be that their axing the smart, sensible Jornada was a bit short sighted and foolish?

Beyond that, price does make a big difference, but so does practicality. And the iPaq 54xx series while high on features, still has the cutting edge form factor from three years ago. It's still slippery, and easily dropped.

What we are seeing here is iPaq's momentum wearing off and true competition creeping into the market. Look for iPaq's market share to continue to fall to Dell and others until they start making PDAs for peoples hands and pockets instead for their oversized, bulky expansion jackets.

Oh, BTW, a built in CF might help as well.

[Rirath]

What the HP spin fails to acknowledge is that the Dell Axim looks and feels like a ....

A JORNADA .......

Could it be that their axing the smart, sensible Jornada was a bit short sighted and foolish?

I must admit it does remind me an awful lot of my Jornada 525. :D

[PetiteFlower]

I've been looking all over for a case for my Axim(unsuccessfully *sniff*) and in the process got to check out a 1910 a little. And I must admit, god DAMN that is a tiny little thing! So cute :) But as much as my Dell is a friggin beast next to it, I still wouldn't want to trade the extra battery life and dual card support of the dell, not to mention the faster processor. I would rather compromise on size then features. And at $100 less then the 1910, it was really no contest.

Now if I could only find a case for it....

[R K]

I am someone who couldn't justify spending $500 for a glorified address book that has been called an IPAQ.

Is it absolutely necessary to throw device targeted insults while trying to make a point?

[Rirath]

I am someone who couldn't justify spending $500 for a glorified address book that has been called an IPAQ.

Is it absolutely necessary to throw device targeted insults while trying to make a point?

Probably not, but it does up the fun a little. This is an HP vs Dell thread after all. :)
I approve, carry on. :lol: :wink:

[JimDantin]

The design/pricing model of the IPAQ line has puzzled me since its inception. The old HP produced a moderately-priced line (54x series) with built-in expandability (CF slot). You could buy a Pocket and add accessories such as modems, wireless adapters, memory, or cameras and just plug them in. Having only one slot is a bit of a pain, but workable.

Compaq (and the New HP) produced a premium-priced line where you had to buy accessory sleds in order to use most other accessories. It's just like the automotive design model where you can't get electric seat warmers unless you buy the premium sound package. This seems bass-ackwards to me --

Why not produce a low cost basic machine that had built-in expansion slots? The new user is able to enter the market at a low price, and then expand the unit with more memory or accessories one piece at a time. She/he doesn't have to work through a confusing minefield of accessory sleds that add to the bulk and complexity. He/she doesn't have to invest in different cases for whenever the sleds are attached or not.

Wait a minute -- this sounds line the Axim!

I've had HP pocket-size computers for many years -- 95LX, 100LX (2 of them), 200LX (2 of those), 430 (bad mistake), 545, and 548. Whenever I get around to replacing the 548, it will be with a machine that has both CF and SD slots built in. I may wait for built-in 802.11. I will NOT but a machine that requires sleds for expansion. I'm hoping some company will realize that the built-in cover of the HP 54x and 56x lines is REALLY a good idea.

[Deslock]

Some of the comments here are ironic as the low price of the HP1910 is one of the factors that converted me (and others) to PPC. I got it the day it came out for $199 (no rebate either) and while that deal is long gone, the HP1910 is still well priced at $299. Sure the Dell offers CF, IO, and jogdial, but size does matter to many people. I've had the HP1910 for 8 weeks and I'm still in awe at the formfactor.

As far as that article goes, it lacked substance and the cartoon is not that funny. I'd be surprised if HP was actually distributing it. Then again, Microsoft is reportedly gearing up for another counter-switch-ad (http://www.macnn.com/news.php?id=18372), so I guess these marketing types will attempt anything.

[R K]

The design/pricing model of the IPAQ line has puzzled me since its inception. The old HP produced a moderately-priced line (54x series) with built-in expandability (CF slot). You could buy a Pocket and add accessories such as modems, wireless adapters, memory, or cameras and just plug them in. Having only one slot is a bit of a pain, but workable.

Compaq (and the New HP) produced a premium-priced line where you had to buy accessory sleds in order to use most other accessories. It's just like the automotive design model where you can't get electric seat warmers unless you buy the premium sound package. This seems bass-ackwards to me --

Why not produce a low cost basic machine that had built-in expansion slots? The new user is able to enter the market at a low price, and then expand the unit with more memory or accessories one piece at a time. She/he doesn't have to work through a confusing minefield of accessory sleds that add to the bulk and complexity. He/she doesn't have to invest in different cases for whenever the sleds are attached or not.

Wait a minute -- this sounds line the Axim!

I've had HP pocket-size computers for many years -- 95LX, 100LX (2 of them), 200LX (2 of those), 430 (bad mistake), 545, and 548. Whenever I get around to replacing the 548, it will be with a machine that has both CF and SD slots built in. I may wait for built-in 802.11. I will NOT but a machine that requires sleds for expansion. I'm hoping some company will realize that the built-in cover of the HP 54x and 56x lines is REALLY a good idea.

This may or may not have much relevance to your post, but what most people fail to realize when criticizing the iPAQ's sleeve concept is that everything is integrated now.
It really misses the point when people say, "Yeah yeah--It has integrated Bluetooth and WiFi, but you still have to use SLEEVES for CF Cards--Ha ha".

Ok, I'll admit that the price could be lower, but lets throw price out the window for a second. If you have integrated BT & WiFi, you really don't need CompactFlash for much else. SD is getting cheaper by the month, and 256MB cards are getting very affordable these days.
Need a landline modem? Buy a Psion InfraRed Modem.

If you look at it from another viewpoint, the iPAQ H5450 could be one of the most versatile Pocket PCs due to its integrated wireless capabilities.
With the iPAQ, you get...

1 SDIO Card Slot
1 Integrated Bluetooth (takes up one slot on other PPCs)
1 Integrated WiFi (same as Bluetooth)
1 Expansion slot

This adds up to about 3-4 expansion slots. Even the Dell only offers one slot for I/O peripherals. This means that you could have a package even smaller than the Dell if all you needed for the CF slot was BT or WiFi.
Now if we want to bring the pricing and the price value issues back, then yeah I'll admit that Dell has HP beat, but it would be nice if we could all let the iPAQ sleeve criticism drop for a little while. Some Pocket PCs don't even include a CF slot-period.

[tcugrilla]

IMHO the reason dell was able to get such a large market share so quickly was their reputation for quality. the market assumed the axim would have the same quality standards as their computers. does dell have the cheapest computers in the marketplace? hell no. does the marketplace care that they are not cheap? hell no. they are reliable. period. now on the other hand the Ipaq's were made by Compaq. also known as Comcrap. god awful computers with horrible service. hp may have bought them, but the stench persists.

[Will T Smith]

I've been looking all over for a case for my Axim(unsuccessfully *sniff*) and in the process got to check out a 1910 a little. And I must admit, god DAMN that is a tiny little thing! So cute :) But as much as my Dell is a friggin beast next to it, I still wouldn't want to trade the extra battery life and dual card support of the dell, not to mention the faster processor. I would rather compromise on size then features. And at $100 less then the 1910, it was really no contest.

Now if I could only find a case for it....

You might have luck with Palm V style cases and holsters. The HP 1910 is actually a bit smaller than the Palm V. BTW, I do really like that particular devices save the teflon (slippery) shell.

Speaking of cases, there is only one thing missing that would make the Axim perfect, an integrated Jornada/Palm style flip-up lid. Thats the only thing thats keeping an Axim from replacing my Jornada 568.

[Will T Smith]

The design/pricing model of the IPAQ line has puzzled me since its inception. The old HP produced a moderately-priced line (54x series) with built-in expandability (CF slot). You could buy a Pocket and add accessories such as modems, wireless adapters, memory, or cameras and just plug them in. Having only one slot is a bit of a pain, but workable.

Compaq (and the New HP) produced a premium-priced line where you had to buy accessory sleds in order to use most other accessories. It's just like the automotive design model where you can't get electric seat warmers unless you buy the premium sound package. This seems bass-ackwards to me --

Why not produce a low cost basic machine that had built-in expansion slots? The new user is able to enter the market at a low price, and then expand the unit with more memory or accessories one piece at a time. She/he doesn't have to work through a confusing minefield of accessory sleds that add to the bulk and complexity. He/she doesn't have to invest in different cases for whenever the sleds are attached or not.

Wait a minute -- this sounds line the Axim!

I've had HP pocket-size computers for many years -- 95LX, 100LX (2 of them), 200LX (2 of those), 430 (bad mistake), 545, and 548. Whenever I get around to replacing the 548, it will be with a machine that has both CF and SD slots built in. I may wait for built-in 802.11. I will NOT but a machine that requires sleds for expansion. I'm hoping some company will realize that the built-in cover of the HP 54x and 56x lines is REALLY a good idea.

When iPaq was first release, the form factor made sense. The iPaq was the best thing in the smallest package and I give them credit for it. The expansion concept was an excellent concept to manage providing ANY format of expansion vs integrating a PC-card. I surmise that the iPaq had little room at the time for ANY internal expansion.

Unfortunately, Compaq put little forthought into the form factor of the connector and the expansion packs. The fatal mistake they made was making the expansion packs a "jacket" instead of a true "sled". Furthermore, if you've ever modded your own CF jacket it's quickly obvious that the expansion connector is absoluetly massive compared to the actual size of the device.

The jacket hamstrung iPaq into the same form factor which was once considered thin, but is now considered somewhat brickish. Furthermore, in order to make the jackets "slide" right, the external casing of the device had to be "smooth & polished". The devices slide alright, right through the average hand and right of the side of a table.

BTW, a side effect of the jackets was also to make "side" buttons fairly inpractical since any jacket would cover the buttons. Their is of course the "record" button that is legendary for being pressed every time you pick up the device since this is the only practical handhold on the device.

Ultimately, I think that an external expansion solution IS a good idea. However, HP needs to make these "backpack" style expansion instead of "jackets". The connector would be near the top, perhaps with some grooves to facilitate a good lock and take stress of the IO/power connectors. The expansion packs would NOT cover the sides of the device making them free to have easy rubber "grippies" and jog/select/record buttons.

To facilitate those with "large investments" in expansion packs, any new devices could have a companion "jacket adapter" that would provide a traditional iPaq profile and would allow hooking a smaller device up to newer expansion packs.

Of course that's just what I would do to kill off that outrageously impractical form-factor :-)

[Jonathon Watkins]

Agreed, but in the meanwhile try this:

http://www.thepocketsolution.com/merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PS&Product_Code=PSCU-110

I'm going to get one for my Axim (when it arrives). :D

[Roosterman]

I am someone who couldn't justify spending $500 for a glorified address book that has been called an IPAQ.

Is it absolutely necessary to throw device targeted insults while trying to make a point?
I'm sorry but the truth may hurt some times. :wink:

[Jonathon Watkins]

I am someone who couldn't justify spending $500 for a glorified address book that has been called an IPAQ.

Is it absolutely necessary to throw device targeted insults while trying to make a point?

Yup, cause it's funny. :D

I just got a phone call from Dell a few minutes ago saying my device will be delivered on Tuesay and asking if that was OK and checking that the person recieving it could show some ID. Nice! First time I've had that from any delivery. Looking forward to it. :P

[Skoobouy]

I hope your not leaning to be so sterotypic in school. You made some pretty broad assumptions on sterotypes you've picked up some where. I am neither "Joe lunch box" or someone who "needs to update a CF-based PDA without changing their storage format". I am someone who couldn't justify spending $500 for a glorified address book that has been called an IPAQ. I am someone who can evaluate features compared to price and make an itelligent informed decision. The Axim offered the best features and expandiblity of anything on the market IMO.

A generalization need not be a stereotype if it is understood to be a generalization and nothing more.

Anyway, to answer some questions, here's why I would probably prefer the iPaq 1910 to the Axim:

-Size and weight
-Slightly larger screen
-Processor capable of higher benchmarks through overclocking

And here is why the Axim's obvious advantages don't weigh as heavily:

-Dual slots are great, but ultimately not really necessary; I was able to transition from the Jornada 720 to the Jornada 568 (From two slots [that I used] to one) with no problems. But of course, I understand that there are plenty others who need this feature more than myself.
-The slightly constricted RAM in the iPaq doesn't hurt functionality, so far as I've heard. And since I store everything on cards anyway, it becomes a sort of non-factor.
-Judging as best as I can from Brighthand, iPaq battery life is good (if not optimal). Its replaceability means I can have a second battery if necessary, but I doubt it would be, given my charging habits.
-Small audio jack is kind of a pain, but I already have an adaptor.

Of course, this is all well and good for a subjective judgement. But I should give an account for why I suppose others might think the same way.

OK, not a big problem. First, I think that, in the general conception, size really matters. We know that features don't weigh equally in importance. We also know that the size difference between the iPaq and the Axim can have real, practical implications - the difference between a belt-or-jeans-pocket PDA and a suit-or-shirt-pocket PDA. My Jornada is fine for class: I carry it together with my Stowaway in a camera case strapped over my shoulder. But just last night I attended a banquet where the Jornada was conspicuously thicker than my wallet inside of my thin suit-pants.

Generally speaking, the smaller the thing gets, the more possibilities open up for carry. And if a thing can get smaller without a big hit to features, then all the better.

Second, the immense success of overclock applications in the past month means that the iPaq - even moreso than the Axim - can finally pull a certain weight that we didn't think X-Scales were capable of. That was the main thing keeping me from wanting to upgrade in the first place. Besides that, either machine can run at very slow speeds to save battery, so battery life becomes less of an issue for either.

So, when I see both PPCs in front of me, I see the iPaq and think "Smallest, fastest, better display." I see the Axim and I think "Dual slots."

That's why, at the end of the day, I think the iPaq 1910 is better. But, of course, this is a matter in which reasonable people can disagree.

[Roosterman]

Skoobouy,

Your said “A generalization need not be a stereotype if it is understood to be a generalization and nothing more.”

This may be true in the most generalized definition, however, I believe those of minority groups would disagree with you. I think they may say that your generalizations are stereotypes. Stereotypes are false beliefs based on oversimplified conceptions. Generally speaking, :wink: it is best to refrain from sweeping generalizations least someone confuse you for a bigot. It is best to base your arguments on facts or observations that can be documented.

Now I don’t have any facts to back up this statement but I don’t believe “size really matters” to as many people as you may assume. Because there are not any sales figures to compare apples and apples, I am basing my thoughts on three observations. First, it would seem that sales are far greater than anyone imagined for the Axim. This is based on the backlog of people waiting to get their new units. It would appear that there has been a pent up desire to get PPC’s but price for feature has been sadly out of line. Second, if the afore mentioned cartoon is truly from HP, they would seem to be running a bit scared. They are seeing that features and value may be more important than they believed. Thirdly, since prior to the inception of the Axim, companies have been cutting prices. This is an indication that they realize many people want the best value for their money. As you can see, I am not making broad generalized statements but simply observations based on evidence found in the marketplace.

I am confused by your statement “Processor capable of higher benchmarks through overclocking”. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the 1910 and the Axim are both based on the Intel Xscale chips (the Axim giving you the choice of a 300Mhz or 400Mhz). If this is true, where is the advantage you speak of? Would not both units have the same capabilities?

You mentioned a “Slightly larger screen”. While this is a fact, 3.8” as opposed to 3.5”, IMHO, it is actually a drawback. Because the resolution is the same for both, the pixels of the 1910 are larger. This would, IMO, negate any perception of a slightly better display because all the letters would appear a little more jagged or fuzzy.

So when I see both units next to each other I see the Axim and think, excellent display, outstanding expansion capabilities, increased functionality, outstanding battery life and best of all a real value, perfect for me. When I see the 1910 I think, excellent display, nice size, but not what I want.

When all is said and done, the really important aspect of this whole discussion has nothing to do with PPC’s. What is really important is we live in societies that offer a tremendous amount of choice and the freedom to discuss our appreciation (or lack of appreciation) of those choices. In the end, we each can get that which meets or desires and those desires don’t have to be the same. IMHO, a capitalistic democracy is the only place to live. :D

[Skoobouy]

Skoobouy,

Your said “A generalization need not be a stereotype if it is understood to be a generalization and nothing more.”

This may be true in the most generalized definition, however, I believe those of minority groups would disagree with you. I think they may say that your generalizations are stereotypes. Stereotypes are false beliefs based on oversimplified conceptions. Generally speaking, :wink: it is best to refrain from sweeping generalizations least someone confuse you for a bigot. It is best to base your arguments on facts or observations that can be documented.

Woah woah woah - d'ems fightin words, my good friend! I certainly hope no one here has confused me for a bigot. I think perhaps you could pick your words more carefully yourself - please, warn me that I may be a sophist, a logic chopper, an incompetent iPaq-loving boob or something (anything!) kinder than a bigot. Opinions do not a bigot make - hate does.

Besides, I spent my previous post trying to justify my past remarks. Isn't that what you asked for?

Now I don’t have any facts to back up this statement but I don’t believe “size really matters” to as many people as you may assume. Because there are not any sales figures to compare apples and apples, I am basing my thoughts on three observations.

First, it would seem that sales are far greater than anyone imagined for the Axim. This is based on the backlog of people waiting to get their new units. It would appear that there has been a pent up desire to get PPC’s but price for feature has been sadly out of line.

I believe both the Axim and the iPaq 1910 are quite popular. But I don't believe either of us can claim your point until we see numbers. Even then, external factors will wiggle their way in - like demographics - to confuse the whole matter. Besides, I could mention the legendary Palm Vx; you could just as easily counter by noting the popularity of the Cassiopeia series. I think that market numbers will, on the whole, tell us very little about whether people actually prioritize small size in their PDAs. Exit polls are a dark science, and second-guessing them is an even darker one.

My point before was quite simple: I believe that the freedom of transport offered by small size is a feature that many, many people value very highly. This need not be insisted upon, however, and I will drop it upon learning that most people don't care.

Second, if the afore mentioned cartoon is truly from HP, they would seem to be running a bit scared. They are seeing that features and value may be more important than they believed.

I kind of doubt it is; however, if you're right on the fact, there is still absolutely no logical connection between the chicken-scratches of an HP employee and the disposition of HP itself. What did you just tell me about generalizations? It would seem more reasonable - inductively - to suppose that HP's attitude is one of determined competition. Why? Because it always has been in the past.

Thirdly, since prior to the inception of the Axim, companies have been cutting prices. This is an indication that they realize many people want the best value for their money.

A fallacy of false cause: anyone who reads investor magazines (pfft - even Time got it right) knows that computer companies are cutting prices because consumers are tightening their fiscal belts and the booming economy is dead. And, I think that the very early appearence of "2-for-1" sales in grocery stores in the 19th century is evidence that corporate America has always known about the appeal of value-pricing.

As you can see, I am not making broad generalized statements but simply observations based on evidence found in the marketplace.

I believe that your justifications need some revision. They may well be correct, but they lack support.

I am confused by your statement “Processor capable of higher benchmarks through overclocking”. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the 1910 and the Axim are both based on the Intel Xscale chips (the Axim giving you the choice of a 300Mhz or 400Mhz). If this is true, where is the advantage you speak of? Would not both units have the same capabilities?

Time for the documentation you asked for:
Brighthand thread: "h1910 really is faster then Axim 400."
http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=ffe328a7a5b5905d1dfec12573888663&threadid=72104&highlight=1910+axim

You mentioned a “Slightly larger screen”. While this is a fact, 3.8” as opposed to 3.5”, IMHO, it is actually a drawback. Because the resolution is the same for both, the pixels of the 1910 are larger. This would, IMO, negate any perception of a slightly better display because all the letters would appear a little more jagged or fuzzy.

Not any, just some. This perception won some credibility, I think, in part due to Wes Salmon's opinion at the Pocket PC 2002 launch that...

While most of our highlight choices were based solely on the raw numbers, there were a few that were subjective in nature, one being display size. We have also chosen to give the highlight nod to the 3.5" displays rather than the 3.8" displays. Since a tighter dpi is almost always preferred, it seems more logical that even though the display is smaller, it is more crisp and clear. However, we are certain some users will disagree with this assessment, so for them we would like to point out that we used the color of "white" to highlight the most desireable screen size. http://www.pdabuzz.com/Features/PPC2002_Launch/comparison.html

I fall in the latter category: 3.8" displays rock. I might agree that the Toshiba Genio e550's 4" screen is overkill, but I also think that it is a little absurd, between the iPaq 1910 and the Axim, that the smaller machine has the bigger screen. Hey, that rhymes. :lol:

So when I see both units next to each other I see the Axim and think, excellent display, outstanding expansion capabilities, increased functionality, outstanding battery life and best of all a real value, perfect for me. When I see the 1910 I think, excellent display, nice size, but not what I want.

And that is the reason why you should buy an Axim, and not an iPaq. :)

[Steven Cedrone]

Skoobuoy and Roosterman,

So far, so good. But, keep the debate from turning ugly, O.K.?

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

[Roosterman]

I have heard on defensive driving but never defensive reading :lol: . Slow down a bit and reread what I wrote. No where did I call you a bigot, I was simply explaining to you that what you consider a generalization will be considered bigotry by others. A bigot is not necessarily someone who hates. Many times that is the case, but a bigot is an intolerant person. Most intolerance, from my experience, comes from ignorance. Many times the person may be well meaning in what they say, but if they are ignorant of the experience of their audience a generalization becomes a stereotype (Now don’t go reading that I am calling you ignorant :) ).

Your link about overclocking bore out my point. Your statement was “Processor capable of higher benchmarks through overclocking”. My point was both are Xscale thus both are capable of overclocking and better benchmarks. The Axim 400 was overclocked to 498.

You said “A fallacy of false cause: anyone who reads investor magazines (pfft - even Time got it right) knows that computer companies are cutting prices because consumers are tightening their fiscal belts and the booming economy is dead.” This is apples and oranges. You will notice you mentioned computer companies. Yes computers have been dropping in price (in fact that has been true since I bought my first computer in 1994), however, I didn't notice the same response in PPC prices until the last three or so months. I have been watching very closely. The economy has been tanking since the end of 1999/early 2000 (anyone who reads financial magazines is aware of this :) ). Maybe it is just a coincidence that the price drops of PPC's coincides with the announcement of the Axim, maybe pigs will fly.

The sad part of this whole discussion is you missed the whole point of my post. Reread, with a bit more discernment and less emotional defensiveness my last paragraph. It’s been fun, now on to other things. Good luck.

[Skoobouy]

I have heard on defensive driving but never defensive reading :lol: . Slow down a bit and reread what I wrote. No where did I call you a bigot, I was simply explaining to you that what you consider a generalization will be considered bigotry by others. A bigot is not necessarily someone who hates. Many times that is the case, but a bigot is an intolerant person. Most intolerance, from my experience, comes from ignorance. Many times the person may be well meaning in what they say, but if they are ignorant of the experience of their audience a generalization becomes a stereotype (Now don’t go reading that I am calling you ignorant :) ).

Ok, I understand. Of course, I read your posts very carefully, and I was careful not to misquote you. In my last post, I wrote, "I certainly hope no one here has confused me for a bigot." I understand very well that you never called me a bigot Still, it seems odd that anything I've ever written could ever be confused as bigotted (or stereotypical) by any reasonable person.

"The Amish have learning disabilities" = bigotted.

"Most people would prefer the 1910 over the Dell unless they were invested in CF" = potentially false generalization - even sophistical, if I didn't make an honest attempt to justify it. But this is about as far from bigotry as Australia is from New York.

Your link about overclocking bore out my point. Your statement was “Processor capable of higher benchmarks through overclocking”. My point was both are Xscale thus both are capable of overclocking and better benchmarks. The Axim 400 was overclocked to 498.

Bear in mind, clock speeds are not benchmarks. The Dell 400MHz will always be capable of higher clock speeds, and the Brighthand thread discusses this. For whatever reason, however, the iPaq 1910 also has an adjustable bus speed, which means that even though its clock speed doesn't reach 400MHz, its benchmarks (voBenchmark numbers) bypass those of the Axim 400MHz.

Also, if I understand correctly, the Axim 300MHz and the iPaq 1910 share the same XScale processor (along with the ViewSonic), but the X-Scale used by the Axim X5 Advanced, Toshiba e750, etc. is different.

The former can be clocked to between 100MHz and 400MHz without too much trouble. The latter, however, can be clocked as high as 498MHz.

But the iPaq 1910 (And I only speak as best as I can understand) can also overlock the bus speed in a manner which makes it faster than all the other machines, even though its clock speed cannot run above 400MHz.

Maybe it is just a coincidence that the price drops of PPC's coincides with the announcement of the Axim, maybe pigs will fly.

I yield. :) Dell was the first out with a sub-$300 Pocket PC, and competition was likely the primary factor in PPC price-drops. You have my assent. Still, technologically speaking, the 1910 is well-priced and offers what I interpret to be a more advantageous feature-set for the dollar.

The sad part of this whole discussion is you missed the whole point of my post. Reread, with a bit more discernment and less emotional defensiveness my last paragraph. It’s been fun, now on to other things. Good luck.

I didn't think I was being defensive in an inappropriate way. Let's review your remarks:

I hope your not leaning to be so sterotypic in school. You made some pretty broad assumptions on sterotypes you've picked up some where.
Generally speaking, it is best to refrain from sweeping generalizations least someone confuse you for a bigot.

And then your latest comment, "Reread, with a bit more discernment and less emotional defensiveness". I understand that you're only cautioning against generalizations that you don't believe are correct. But your statements invite defense.

I'm only defending two points here: 1. That, in a qualified manner of speaking, the iPaq 1910 is better suited to most than the Axim X5, and 2. I've written nothing in this thread that could be mistaken by anyone as bigotted, or even stereotypical (unless my 'Amish' example were taken completely out of context).

---

Hi Steven. I think everything's good, but I won't object if you need to do your job, whatever that entails.

[Steven Cedrone]

Hi Steven. I think everything's good, but I won't object if you need to do your job, whatever that entails.

I'm watching... :wink:

As long as you two keep on topic, and keep it "civil" (read: it doesn't look as if the thread will degrade into a flame war), I won't do anything...

Steve