Follow-up On New Sony Memory Stick

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/n/2889.html">http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/n/2889.html</a><br /><br />Just over a month ago, we reported on the <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5688">new Sony Memory Stick Pro</a> linking to a CNet News.com article. Immediately other PDA enthusiast sites dismissed the article based on contacts within Sony saying that the author of the article, Richard Shim, would be embarrassed.<br /><br />Well, it looks like he was mostly right. "Not all devices will support the new format, however. Some products already have support for the Memory Stick Pro built-in, suggesting that Sony has been "priming the market" for some time, while others will require a software upgrade. In particular, Sony's CLIE NX-line and NZ-line of Palm OS handhelds will support the Memory Stick Pro with a software patch. No other members of the CLIE line will support the new Memory Stick."<br /><br />So even the high dollar NR series is not supported. :roll: They are adding another new format, called the Memory Stick Select, which will essentially cram multiple 128MB sticks into a single stick. You remove the stick and slide a switch to access different "partitions." How useful is that? Who wants playlists spanning volumes? <!><br /><br />I don't care if Sony builds a Pocket PC tomorrow that has all the power of the NZ-90 in the size of an HP iPAQ h1910. If it has a memory stick slot, it won't be on <b><i>my</i></b> shopping list. I hate to see consumers being duped like this. I hope current Clie owners remember this treatment when they are ready to upgrade.

[dh]

I would buy an NX60 (don't need the camera) NOW if Sony provided SD instead of the Memory Stick and that the WiFi slot supported all CF cards. I understand that Sony has a corporate mission to support it's memory format, but the result is a PDA that fails to meet many potential customers desires.

This idea of moving a switch to access the different memory stick partitions just sucks.

Between them Palm and Sony must be making many current users take a close look at the PPC alternatives. Actually if the NX60 was a dual slot PPC it would be a fantastic, albeit rather expensive device.

It looks as though the Palm OS guys are losing it, whereas the PPC gang are coming up with products more in tune with users needs.

[Jonathan1]

Even better since its 4 partitions you get to play where's that document. Hmmmm did it put it on partition 2 or 4??!?! I’m still pissed that I spent a cool grand on my Cybershot 707 and, while its not worthless, sony’s proprietary **** has definitely decreased the value. NEVER AGAIN! :twisted: :x

[igreen]

I used to be a big fan of Sony products.....I like the VIAO notebooks..but Memory Stick is the deal breaker. The capacities of Memory Sticks are a joke. Sony should do itself a favor and drop this Betamax-like farce.

[Janak Parekh]

Yeah, a lot of F707 users are very, very angry about this. We haven't even thought about consumer confusion between "Classic" vs "Pro" vs "Select"...

I wouldn't call this "partially right", Ed. I think he was almost completely correct.

--janak

[hokie36]

The day after I heard about Sony going with the Memory Stick Pro that would not support legacy devices I returned my Clie SJ30 (beautiful screen that I do miss) to get the HP 1910. This just made my hatred for Sony grow deeper since they are leaving most of their customers out in the cold.

Palm vs PPC...I hate that argument because I love both and think each has it's weak and strong points. Everyone vs Sony...I'd rather buy a Packard Bell...screw Sony.

[Ed Hansberry]

Yeah, a lot of F707 users are very, very angry about this. We haven't even thought about consumer confusion between "Classic" vs "Pro" vs "Select"...

I wouldn't call this "partially right", Ed. I think he was almost completely correct.

--janak
Agreed. I'll edit my post. Seems only devices made within 2-3 months of the original announcement *might* be eligible.

[markpmc]

The bottom line is that Sony did lie, the CNet article was correct. Sony gave us just enough info to make us think the new sticks would be usual MS Magic Gate w/ increased capacity...not another damn flash format.

My solution was simple and obvious. I've sold my Clie and today is my first day w/ a Zayo in hand.

markpmc

[pocketpcdude1024]

I don't care if Sony builds a Pocket PC tomorrow that has all the power of the NZ-90 in the size of an HP iPAQ h1910. If it has a memory stick slot, it wont' be on my shopping list.
If it has the price of a Zire it's on mine!

[GregWard]

I wouldn't call this "partially right", Ed. I think he was almost completely correct.

--janak

So where does this "... be embarassed" come from then? Do Sony think he'll be really embarassed 'cos he was dead right? :oops: :oops: :oops:

[Foo Fighter]

Is Sony deliberately trying to piss of its user base? They'll convert lots of Clie users into Palm and Pocket PC owners. Way to go SONY! :roll:

[Ed Hansberry]

I wouldn't call this "partially right", Ed. I think he was almost completely correct.

--janak

So where does this "... be embarassed" come from then? Do Sony think he'll be really embarassed 'cos he was dead right? :oops: :oops: :oops:
Here we go - http://www.brighthand.com/article/Better_Memory_Sticks_In_January

"According to CNet, Sony will announce 256MB, 512MB, and 1GB Memory Sticks at the Consumer Electronics Show in early January. Even better, these will transfer data more quickly than current ones. However, in order to obtain this increased capacity and speed, Sony has had to change the way they work. This means that not all current devices will be able to use the new Memory Sticks.

CNet is crediting this information to unnamed sources and a Sony spokesperson vehemently denies that it is true. According to him, when the actual details come out, the CNet article will look "foolish". "

Now who looks foolish? "vehemently denies" :roll:

How can anyone trust Sony with their money again?

[Janak Parekh]

How can anyone trust Sony with their money again?
There are always new consumers, unfortunately. Sony's very stubborn, and despite the loud cries about this and other actions they've taken regarding Memory Stick they've simply yawned. Until sales are noticeably hurt, they're not going to do a single thing.

--janak

[ricksfiona]

I never buy Sony computer equipment because of the propietary and non-upgradeable ideology.

Sony Vaio laptops and their computers have really cool designs, but you ever try upgrading those to a new OS? Forget about trying to get a Firewire driver to upgrade from Windows 98 to, well, anything else.

The Sony Clie's are beautiful devices and they are forcing Palm to be a little more innovative. I'll give them credit for that. But I won't pay extra for a technology that is not significantly better than current 'open' technologies.

[st63z]

Yeah I'd posted against the MS Pro announcement over at DPReview awhile back, but those pro photographers are a grown-up bunch and don't like to argue :)

What's worse, Samsung's also getting on the MemStick bandwagon, completely it almost seems like :( Just when they're now making cooler and cooler state-of-the-art gadgets (like their ITCam-7, cellphones, etc), now it's to be avoided (by me) just like Sony's gadgets, ugh I can't stand it!

If I recall Acer's heading that way too, what the heck's going on. Are these OEMs also going to follow Sony into MemStick Pro or will they wise up?

I mean MS, MS w/ MagicGate, MS Pro (w/ MagicGate), MS Select Function, MS Duo, [MS Duo w/ MagicGate?], [MS Duo Pro?], etc...

[Foo Fighter]

Damn, NR owners must be furious right now. They coughed up 5 Ben Franklins for a device that now has dead-end expansion capability. What was that old joke about the guy who goes to a brothel, the door closes behind him, where he finds himself standing in the back alley, he turns around and can't get back in. The sign on the door reads...."You have just been screwed. Hope you enjoyed it". I think this applies to Clie owners! :lol:

[heov]

but hey, look at the brightside... MS Pro will be @ 1GB by spring time and it's expandable to 32GB...

This isn't THAT big of a deal to consumers... the only thing they missed out on was more memory (which is a fairly big thing), but they can still use all the I/O stuff that the memory stick hold true to... but that's technology... it was bound to happen sooner or later :(

Anyway, I don't think Sony Clie users will be that mad- sony releases about 12 PDAs a year, they'll probably get a new one ;)

[heov]

also, let's hope the same thing does not happen to SD... it too is proprietory, owned by Panasonic, Toshiba, and SanDisk I believe... MemoryStick is the same, it's just that SD has more liscencees... MMC is the open industry standard.

[st63z]

But SD has much greater industry consensus and I think that stemmed from the way it had been developed (I think more open to input and such?) unlike Sony's way? I'm also guessing basing its backward compatibility on the open MMC has had an impact as well as lower licensing fees (someone correct me)? Otherwise why would all of them take up SD? I think Samsung et. al only adoped MemStick recently purely based on how effective Sony's market size is...

Plus on the technical side the SD design seems to have been more thought-out more completely. Single unified design w/o needing spec changes or different cards to ramp capacities, add SDMI, etc. And the size has been small enough to begin with that it hasn't needed an "SD Duo" as much as MemStick does...

[Foo Fighter]

but hey, look at the brightside... MS Pro will be @ 1GB by spring time and it's expandable to 32GB...

And how much do want to bet the prices will be astronomical? That 1GB stick alone will probably cost as much as an NX60.

This isn't THAT big of a deal to consumers...

To those who don't own a Clie, no it isn't a big deal. But Sony is the worlds second largest PDA maker. There are a lot of soon to be disenfranchised Clie users out there.

Anyway, I don't think Sony Clie users will be that mad- sony releases about 12 PDAs a year, they'll probably get a new one ;)

Uh....you are forgetting that Sony is still selling non-MS Pro handhelds. If they had replaced every current model, I would agree. But consumers are getting screwed right now every time they buy an SL10, SJ20, SJ30, or T665. And those devices make up the bulk of Sony PDA sales. NX-NZ are niche models.

[heov]

[quote] Anyway, I don't think Sony Clie users will be that mad- sony releases about 12 PDAs a year, they'll probably get a new one ;)

Uh....you are forgetting that Sony is still selling non-MS Pro handhelds. If they had replaced every current model, I would agree. But consumers are getting screwed right now every time they buy an SL10, SJ20, SJ30, or T665. And those devices make up the bulk of Sony PDA sales. NX-NZ are niche models.

I was kinda joking about them not being mad... if i had a clie i would furious :)

Anyway, the thing is they don't need to support MSPro in devices liket eh SJ series because they really can't do much except store pictures...

I can still see sony selling low end palm's w/ the duo (non mspro, shorter sticks) because in practicality, those consumers that buy the PDA don't need more than 128, and if they do, they can do that "select" thing...

Hopefully the t665 will be upgraded w/ OS 5 and highres+...

But I have to agree, sucks to be a Sony owner- that's why the only sony products I have is a big screen tv (w/o MS).

[Will T Smith]

but hey, look at the brightside... MS Pro will be @ 1GB by spring time and it's expandable to 32GB...

And how much do want to bet the prices will be astronomical? That 1GB stick alone will probably cost as much as an NX60.

This isn't THAT big of a deal to consumers...

To those who don't own a Clie, no it isn't a big deal. But Sony is the worlds second largest PDA maker. There are a lot of soon to be disenfranchised Clie users out there.

Anyway, I don't think Sony Clie users will be that mad- sony releases about 12 PDAs a year, they'll probably get a new one ;)

Uh....you are forgetting that Sony is still selling non-MS Pro handhelds. If they had replaced every current model, I would agree. But consumers are getting screwed right now every time they buy an SL10, SJ20, SJ30, or T665. And those devices make up the bulk of Sony PDA sales. NX-NZ are niche models.

I think you folks are all forgetting Sony's #1 outlet for memory sticks,

DIGITAL CAMERAS

I have a Sony camera and I'm VERY dissapointed by their announcement. Sony had me going for a while because they executed their memory stick strategy so WELL across their entire product line. However, they've destroyed all their work. Once again I'm in the mode of cautioning people AGAINST Memory Stick.

While Memory Stick languished at 128MB, SD pumped out 256MB, 512MB, 1GB, and now 2GB units. Admitably, they're expensive, but they won't be forever. And devices that now use SD memory will be able to use these high mem cards in the future when prices are cheaper.

Sony should really be ashamed that they could not deliver without changing the Memory Stick spec. This will have a HUGE impact on users who go to upgrade. It really gives SD momentum in the marketplace. Ditch Sony cameras, look at Canon and Kodak as awesome alternatives.

[jweitzman]

Sure Memory Stick is proprietary but so are most of the other formats. It's just a matter of how many licensees they have and how much momentum there is behind the format. There's a difference between "proprietary" and "standard." Almost everything Microsoft sells, including Windows is proprietary. It's just ubiquitous enough to be considered a standard. You still have to pay MS for it, and when they change it enough, you're still forced to upgrade.

There's also a difference between proprietary and licensable and proprietary and not licensable.

Sony actively tries to license the MS format, but has few takers so far. Probably too expensive. At least more companies are making the Memory Sticks now.

JW

[Timothy Rapson]

As one of the most satisfied Clie NR70V owners out there for the last 8 months, I am REALLY MAD at this news.


This effectively cuts a year or two out of the use I expected to get out of my NR. I can use 128 meg sticks now, but for music and movies I want (and most importantly Sony promised me) 1 gigabyte sticks at reasonable prices. I wasn't promised more speed, 32 GIG, or a pot to pee in. I WAS promised 1 gig memory sticks.

I, for one, would like to see a class action suite on this. Sony has publicly shown a future for Memory Sticks. They showed the charts last February promising to deliver 256 sticks in December of 2002. Where are they? They are the stupic switch thingees that are still not here? Bologna.

The only way Sony could salvage this for me is if they GAVE me a 256 Duo switch Stick. Then they better have prices that are lower that SD at every size. What are the odds on that? ZERO.

The bottom line for me is that I have taken the Sony Minidisc I was going to get off my shopping list. Ditto ANYTHING with any dumb memory stick! I may tell my kids that the PlayStation IIIs can set in the stores forever for all I care. I am not going to fall for it again.


They announced prices for the new sticks too. $880 for the 1 gigs. $170 for the 256. Now, what does a 256 MB SD cost these days? Less than $100.



Sony, YOU ARE PATHETIC!

[Foo Fighter]

I am REALLY MAD at this news.

ROFL! I thought of you the moment I heard this news. :onfire:

[Janak Parekh]

Sure Memory Stick is proprietary but so are most of the other formats.
Possibly, but a consortium-based proprietary standard is a lot more appealing to third parties than a one-company standard. All the companies that would have implemented Memory Stick, for example, would have been screwed by the whole Pro debacle. I don't think this is going to help Sony's efforts to license the technology...

--janak

[guinness]

This reminds of Smartmedia cards, they're a proprietary "standard" from Olympus, Toshiba, and Fuji, but they never caught on much. They realizied that the format wouldn't allow for large memory sizes so they created the XD cards; smaller than SD cards and they actually will break the 128 MB barrier of Smartmedia cards. I have an Olympus 3040, which only supports Smartmedia, but I wouldn't feel as left out as Olympus has cameras that support Smartmedia, XD, and Microdrives in the same camera, unlike the wide spread use of MS by Sony in most of their consumer devices, with that format you're stuck with whatever Sony gives you.

[Jason Dunn]

Oh Sony...you have so much going for you, but you manage to screw it up over and over again.

It sucks for everyone that bought Sony products, but this only reinforces my belief that as long as Sony is backing the "Betamax of memory cards", I can't and won't buy any of their products that requires interoperability with my other devices.

[chrisdavies]

This is one of two reasons why I have not bought a Sony Clie (despite loving the design, high res screens etc).

The other is that they deliberately alienate Mac users by preventing them from working 'out of the box' on a Mac.

Dumb in every way.

And don't forget the extremely short product life cycle. Even the new $800 clamshell clie will be discontinued by March/April.... if prior experience is anything to go by.

[bjornkeizers]

Well, I'm just glad I picked up an SL 10 instead of that NR70V..

[I bet you don't hear people say that very often..] It's a guy thing.

I'm rather pissed at Sony too, but not as much as the guys who are paying hundred of dollars or over here, close to 600 euro for one of those NR's.

While this Clie is low end compared to a PPC, or even my wristwatch for that matter, I kind of like it over a Palm. One of the reasons I bought this was its memory stick slot, which has just become TOTALLY OBSOLETE. That's nice, isn't it?

I bought a 64 mb memory stick last week, and it cost me 70 euro's. A 64 mb CF card costs me 40... so they are quite a bit more expensive.

Add to that the fact that I was using CF back in the days of the old Philips Nino. I can still buy CF cards today and use them in that same Philips Nino, which is something like 4 years old already..

If I go to the store in 4 years, and want to replace my current memory stick.. i'm out of luck. With any luck, sony will be out of business by then BECAUSE THEY MANAGE TO PISS OFF THE PEOPLE THAT BUY THEIR PRODUCTS TIME AND TIME AGAIN!

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

I don't care if Sony builds a Pocket PC tomorrow that has all the power of the NZ-90 in the size of an HP iPAQ h1910. If it has a memory stick slot, it wont' be on my shopping list.
If it has the price of a Zire it's on mine!
Yeah, like when was the last time Sony created a new device and sold it at the price of a Zire?

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Oh Sony...you have so much going for you, but you manage to screw it up over and over again.

It sucks for everyone that bought Sony products, but this only reinforces my belief that as long as Sony is backing the "Betamax of memory cards", I can't and won't buy any of their products that requires interoperability with my other devices.
At the very least, Betamax was the superior format, it just came out too late. Never at any point was Memory Sticks considered the better standard over CompactFlash or Secure Digital.

[Kati Compton]

If I go to the store in 4 years, and want to replace my current memory stick.. i'm out of luck. With any luck, sony will be out of business by then BECAUSE THEY MANAGE TO PISS OFF THE PEOPLE THAT BUY THEIR PRODUCTS TIME AND TIME AGAIN!

Well, not that I'm a Sony fan, but 4 years is a long time in tech years...

To me, the problem isn't so much that they came out with something "new and better" (notice the quotes) that old devices won't support - that type of thing happens all the time, and SHOULD happen, really. Always maintaining full backwards compatability could really slow the rate of advancement.

Instead, I think it's bad that:

1. they obviously didn't plan ahead for the MS.
2. they lied to the consumers about predicting memory sizes that couldn't be supported at all by the format.

[Janak Parekh]

Well, not that I'm a Sony fan, but 4 years is a long time in tech years...
Well, yes and no. I have a Microdrive that's 2+ years old already. I think it'll hit its third birthday before I give it up. The fact that I was able to migrate that between different units with a CF slot was a big plus for me.

Always maintaining full backwards compatability could really slow the rate of advancement.
It's always a compromise. The fact that the CF/PC card form factor has permitted very, very large addressing lines from the early days on has been a major factor in its success. OK, Sony shouldn't prepare for 1TB, but they anticipated sizes greater than 128MB right from the outset. That's the shame, as you point out.

--janak

[bjornkeizers]

Well, not that I'm a Sony fan, but 4 years is a long time in tech years...
Well, yes and no. I have a Microdrive that's 2+ years old already. I think it'll hit its third birthday before I give it up. The fact that I was able to migrate that between different units with a CF slot was a big plus for me.

Exactly. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for progress, but the fact that sony promises us one thing [high-cap MS] and then doesn't deliver.. and on top of that they expect us to move to the new format, which in essence cuts the legs from under the current MS line [not that it had a leg to stand on in the first place, let's be honest] .. that just pisses me off.

I can pick up a CF card and still use it in my old devices; camera, reader, PPC, Nino, whatever.. it's a great format: I use it with a USB drive just as if it were a floppy disk! It's *a really great format*

MS on the other hand, is twice as expensive, doesn't deliver the amount of space they told us it would, like 256 mb or even 1 gb.. and now they effectively ditch the current MS, making all our sony stuff obsolete. What if I want more memory for my sony camera that I bought.. let's say 6 months ago? I'm out of luck. Better stockpile 128 mb MS's, 'cause that's as good as its going to get.

[Ed Hansberry]

If I go to the store in 4 years, and want to replace my current memory stick.. i'm out of luck. With any luck, sony will be out of business by then BECAUSE THEY MANAGE TO PISS OFF THE PEOPLE THAT BUY THEIR PRODUCTS TIME AND TIME AGAIN!

Well, not that I'm a Sony fan, but 4 years is a long time in tech years...
Not in flash memory though. CF has been around for at least 5 years and keeps growing. SD/MMC came out in 2000 and show no signs of slowing or of being replaced any time soon.

[Kati Compton]

Hmm... I posted a long response. Hit "submit" and everything. It's not here. I doubt it was deleted - must be a glitch? Probably on my part. I must have only hit "Preview". &lt;sigh>

Anyway, I think it's a credit to the designers of CF that it still works and supports such large sizes, and I think SD/MMC have seen that more storage is always needed.

I think Sony made a stupid mistake in the first place by not allowing for enough growth. I think though, that once they saw that this wasn't enough, there had to be SOME change. If they decided to switch to CF to support larger sizes, it would be considered a good thing, but it wouldn't change the fact that they had lied (at least from what you guys are saying) to their consumers by promising larger sizes of MS's. I think that if a company makes a poor decision, that they should do something to rectify it. (Like make another poor decision. &lt;sigh>)

So just the concept of "switching to a new format because the old one simply did not provide enough storage" doesn't bother me all THAT much. At some point we'll hit a wall with CF, and while that will be a bit sad, I won't begrudge the need for a new solution.

It's the lying that caused at least some of their consumers to make misinformed decisions that's my real problem with this. In addition to the short-sightedness. I guess I don't see how they could NOT have known about the size limit while listing the future MS sizes... Perhaps they planned obsolescence in, which would be pretty crappy.

I know I'm splitting hairs on this one - maybe I should just be upset instead of narrowing down exactly what about it upsets me. And describing it. At great length. To everyone. In public.

[Janak Parekh]

I think Sony made a stupid mistake in the first place by not allowing for enough growth.
Well, this is what we don't know about. I don't think it was shortsightedness - they did proclaim that large Memory Sticks were "just around the corner" from early on. So, did they just make a mistake in the design, or did marketing override engineering and say "screw the fact that we can't handle above 128MB, we'll just say that Memory Sticks will eventually support large sizes {but only new units}"?

That's the question we'll never know the answer to. :)

I feel most sorry for the NR70 and F707 owners, because they paid a lot of money for what they thought was a high-end unit with high-end storage capabilities, but were ultimately gipped. For a small Cybershot camera, it's not a huge deal.

--janak

[Kati Compton]

Well, this is what we don't know about. I don't think it was shortsightedness - they did proclaim that large Memory Sticks were "just around the corner" from early on. So, did they just make a mistake in the design, or did marketing override engineering and say "screw the fact that we can't handle above 128MB, we'll just say that Memory Sticks will eventually support large sizes {but only new units}"?

I think it would be hard to make a mistake thinking you could support more space but then not being able to.... Unless the limitation is not in the MS hardware itself, but rather in the rest of the product, the support circuitry.... Actually, this may be more likely. The units themselves may not be able to address larger sizes, regardless of the limitations of the MS itself. I'd have to spend a lot of time looking a documents Sony wouldn't let me see in order to know for sure, though.

Somebody at Sony dropped the ball, and at "best" there was a miscommunication between R&D and marketing, or two different divisions of R&D. But it is Sony's responsibility as a company to make sure those divisions communicate properly, so I still say it's the fault of the company, and their mistake to own up to. Whether it was a miscommunication or marketing knew they were lying, it was wrong, and hurt the consumer. The first is just less "evil".

I feel most sorry for the NR70 and F707 owners, because they paid a lot of money for what they thought was a high-end unit with high-end storage capabilities.

Agreed. I think many people will trust Sony a bit less after this.

[jlp]

The reason the MemorySTINKS :P have been limited to 128 MB and consequently require a new and incompatible format is because, like NotSoSmartMedia :P cards the driving electronic is inside the devices not the card itself; OTOH, CF, MMC and SD cards have theirs onboard.

I used to love Sony and have bought many products from them, but ever since the introdiction of things like MemorySINK :P, MagicHate :P and other things that put consumers last I've decided to stop support Sorry :P devices!!!

[Kati Compton]

The reason the MemorySTINKS :P have been limited to 128 MB and consequently require a new and incompatible format is because, like NotSoSmartMedia :P cards the driving electronic is inside the devices not the card itself; OTOH, CF, MMC and SD cards have theirs onboard.

Think how much cheaper MS media must be to make than CF/SD then.... I don't see those savings passed on to the consumer. :(

[jlp]

The reason the MemorySTINKS :P have been limited to 128 MB and consequently require a new and incompatible format is because, like NotSoSmartMedia :P cards the driving electronic is inside the devices not the card itself; OTOH, CF, MMC and SD cards have theirs onboard.

Think how much cheaper MS media must be to make than CF/SD then.... I don't see those savings passed on to the consumer. :(

Never noticed how expensive Sorry products always are??

Also think about the PCMCIA adapters for MemorySICK :P or NotSoSmartMedia cards: they are 3-4 times more expensive than adapters for CF or MMC/SD cards, and at least the MemorySH!T :P adapters require a coin battery; guess why??!!