03-22-2004, 09:00 PM
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Executive Editor
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 29,160
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Rebuttal to the Ford versus Chevy Article
"Jeff Kirvin's article entitled Ford vs Chevy just doesn't do justice to what Microsoft implemented in Windows CE (the core OS that the Pocket PC and Windows Mobile systems use). What he described is how physical ram is allocated between execution and storage. The critical thing he left out is how the OS virtually allocates memory and how it decides what to do. Also, his discussion does NOT explain how the Windows CE OS multitasks..."
Chris De Herrera has written a rebuttal to Jeff Kirvin's Ford vs. Chevy article, and it's worth a read.
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03-22-2004, 09:23 PM
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Mystic
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,768
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I find it interesting the Jeff mentions that the Pocket PC cannot have more than window being viewed... as if this was a fundamental flaw of the OS. It was intentional to make the experience in the Pocket PC seamless, not a limitation of the core operating system. To simplify the user experience, the PPC shell limits one top-level application to be viewed at a time, and the others are still running - just at a lower z-order. In fact, an application can have pop-up windows (see the screenx apps from mtux) that do not interfere with other apps in the z-order. The applications themselves actually can share the z-order top-level window with tools like seymore as well. These apps expose the true multi-tasking of the core OS. The Conduits MP3 player adds a notfication icon to control the player in the back-ground. This is the full application running in the background, not some seperate ui-less thread.
I do think it is an interesting step that PalmSource has taken to allow multiple thread processes... and it shows that MS was on the correct path. It just doesn't go far enough. The Palm implementation reminds me very much of the old DOS-based TSR utilities - and that just doesn't cut it.
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Jonathan (JonnoB)
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke
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03-22-2004, 09:28 PM
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Intellectual
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 217
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I don't think it was a rebuttle - more like an in-depth look at exactly how Pocket PCs handle multitasking. Since he doesn't have a discussion forum I guess we'll have to discuss his comments here. 
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Palm's decisions to require applications to be rewritten shows how poorly they initially planned to support multitasking. Further their decisions are going to limit what applications are available for their customers.
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Apps do not have to be rewritten to work under the new OS. The rewriting happens when developers want to take advantage of the multitasking of the new Palms OS (or when the developer chooses to write directly to the hardware and the hardware changes).
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Just take any Pocket PC and setup Notes to record voice and let it run until there is no more ram left and you'll see why we have the ability to perform a hard reset.
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Either I misunderstand this statement or PPC doesn't handle full RAM very well. :lol:
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03-22-2004, 09:36 PM
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Pupil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 11
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JonnoB
It just doesn't go far enough. The Palm implementation reminds me very much of the old DOS-based TSR utilities - and that just doesn't cut it.
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I keep reading on this forum how the Palm implementation of multitasking is not good enough, just doesn't cut it, etc. My question is why? Please give everyday examples of something a PPC device can do that a Cobalt device cannot do.
Lucan
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03-22-2004, 09:43 PM
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Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 498
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by c38b2
Palm's decisions to require applications to be rewritten shows how poorly they initially planned to support multitasking. Further their decisions are going to limit what applications are available for their customers.
Apps do not have to be rewritten to work under the new OS. The rewriting happens when developers want to take advantage of the multitasking of the new Palms OS (or when the developer chooses to write directly to the hardware and the hardware changes).\\
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I don't understand your words. Chris told us application need to be rewritten if the application want to run background in "mulittasking" POS, you said the same thing, what's the difference?
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Just take any Pocket PC and setup Notes to record voice and let it run until there is no more ram left and you'll see why we have the ability to perform a hard reset.
Either I misunderstand this statement or PPC doesn't handle full RAM very well. :lol:
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Actually most of people didn't notice that file explorer can always be launched even the ram is full(without any bit left). I found this feature by chance. One month ago I tried to copy my maps to SD card but by mistake I copied to RAM, I filled up all RAM and the system closed all apps including file explorer. I run the file explorer again, popup windows told me if I need convert some SD card space as virtual memory, I click yes and the file exploere launched and I moved away all my maps.
Most of time you won't see this popup windows " Do you want to convert some storage card space as virtual memory? ".
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03-22-2004, 09:46 PM
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Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 498
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lucan
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Originally Posted by JonnoB
It just doesn't go far enough. The Palm implementation reminds me very much of the old DOS-based TSR utilities - and that just doesn't cut it.
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I keep reading on this forum how the Palm implementation of multitasking is not good enough, just doesn't cut it, etc. My question is why? Please give everyday examples of something a PPC device can do that a Cobalt device cannot do.
Lucan |
The simplest example is old apps for earlier version OS can always stay background in every PPC os version without rewriten, but in POS the old apps will be closed once you launch another application.
Simple?
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03-22-2004, 09:50 PM
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Contributing Editor Emeritus
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,228
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lucan
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Originally Posted by JonnoB
It just doesn't go far enough. The Palm implementation reminds me very much of the old DOS-based TSR utilities - and that just doesn't cut it.
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I keep reading on this forum how the Palm implementation of multitasking is not good enough, just doesn't cut it, etc. My question is why? Please give everyday examples of something a PPC device can do that a Cobalt device cannot do. |
On a PPC, open and email. Say it has contact info in the sig you want and you decide to copy it to contacts. Open Contacts and open a form. Switch to the email and copy one line. Switch to the contact form and paste in the appropriate line. Switch to the email and copy the next line. Keep doing this until you are done.
On OS6, the UI keeps closing the contact form since the UI thread is killed. I'm not sure if it keeps the email actually open and your cursor on the same line or not or if it keeps closign that window.
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03-22-2004, 09:55 PM
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Mystic
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,768
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lucan
I keep reading on this forum how the Palm implementation of multitasking is not good enough, just doesn't cut it, etc. My question is why? Please give everyday examples of something a PPC device can do that a Cobalt device cannot do.
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Using Seymour I work on a word document in which the content is relative to research I am able to view browsing the web. I do this, while streaming audio via a shoutcast radio station. When needed, I talk to people on the Pocket PC phone without interuption to the downloading of multiple large files via WiFi, the remote administration (terminal server) at the office, and the multiple A. People who do not need true multi-tasking applications would not understand how important it is to others who really do need it. Kind of like those who said years ago that they could not understand why anyone would need a multi-tasking desktop and more than 640k of memory.
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Jonathan (JonnoB)
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke
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03-22-2004, 09:57 PM
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Pupil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 11
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[/quote]
The simplest example is old apps for earlier version OS can always stay background in every PPC os version without rewriten, but in POS the old apps will be closed once you launch another application.
Simple?[/quote]
True. But isn't it true that the majority of applications don't need or don't benefit from multitasking? Here is my list of applications that benefit for multitasking:
Web, email, IM, phone call, open form, music, GPS.
Did I miss anything?
Lucan
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03-22-2004, 10:00 PM
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Pupil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 11
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ed Hansberry
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Originally Posted by Lucan
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Originally Posted by JonnoB
It just doesn't go far enough. The Palm implementation reminds me very much of the old DOS-based TSR utilities - and that just doesn't cut it.
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I keep reading on this forum how the Palm implementation of multitasking is not good enough, just doesn't cut it, etc. My question is why? Please give everyday examples of something a PPC device can do that a Cobalt device cannot do. |
On a PPC, open and email. Say it has contact info in the sig you want and you decide to copy it to contacts. Open Contacts and open a form. Switch to the email and copy one line. Switch to the contact form and paste in the appropriate line. Switch to the email and copy the next line. Keep doing this until you are done.
On OS6, the UI keeps closing the contact form since the UI thread is killed. I'm not sure if it keeps the email actually open and your cursor on the same line or not or if it keeps closign that window. |
That certainly is a basic need for multitasking. Are the experts saying that this cannot be done in Cobalt?
Lucan
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