07-26-2002, 03:00 PM
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Contributing Editor Emeritus
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,228
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I don't get it. Maybe I don't want to get it.
A few weeks ago, Jason posted on the new Palm Oslo device because of its looks. Yesterday, Palm Infocenter (PIC) posted on some specs they had obtained - things like audio capabilities, 320 X 320 screen, bluetooth, 175MHz TI processor, etc. And what does the PIC audience do? They blast the device! "Too thick." "Too complex." "Another Zaurus."
And this is the problem Palm has right now. You have Pocket PCs nibbling away market share quarter after quarter, and they are doing it with power, not pricing. In fact, they are doing it in spite of the pricing differences. Then you have users like our very own Foo Fighter that are largely device agnostic and just want something cool, powerful and under $500, something the Oslo fulfills. And on the other end of the spectrum you have those that want a small package regardless of functionality, or a particular functionality regardless of what power user features are abandoned.
Microsoft has a very targeted focus on who it thinks will buy a Pocket PC. Enterprises and power users. Plain and simple. Want only PIM? Well, maybe the Pocket PC isn't for you. And MS seems happy with that. Palm, on the other hand, seems to be going after everyone with OS5 and beyond. The only thing they have to differentiate the different levels of users though is pricing. There won't be a scaled down simple OS5 on sub $150 devices, and there won't be multitasking on any device at any price. I don't envy Palm's marketing department as they try to guide Palm and PalmSource through this. If you aren't careful in a situation like this as you try to change the direction of a company, the risk of ticking everyone off is far higher than pleasing even 75% of your current base, something the current gripes at PIC seem to back up.
So, back to my original thought. I don't get why the Oslo is being blasted at PIC by Palm's core users. If it weren't for the limitations of OS5, Oslo is a device I'd be interested in playing with and perhaps even buying. If that is "not getting it" then I don't want to get it. Do you get it?
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07-26-2002, 03:36 PM
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Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 516
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I don't know that I saw people blasting it completely. I'm sure some people were unimpressed or hated it for one reason or another but, like every community, everyone's needs differ. Here are my thoughts...
When I saw early photos of the device, I was half-hoping that the slidable area would actually slide up to cover the Graffiti area while still keeping the device long, thus creating a nice rest area for your palms for playing games. Of course, it was still cursed by the now-standard center mounted joypad. It turns out that it collapses completely, thus making the device shorter. So, I'll dismiss it as a great gaming device. Now let's talk about the good points...
I agree that smaller can be better (for portability sake), but one of the things I hate is the idea that thinner is always better. This became a trend with laptops. I used to own an old Toshiba Portege. This was one of the original ones that was small but thick. It had a reduced-size keyboard but the keyboard had normal travel. Then everyone started making laptops bigger but thinner resulting in a full-size keyboard (good) and larger screen (good) but reduced keyboard travel (bad) and an overall larger (though thinner) laptop (bad, IMO - good for others I guess). Now let's talk about PDAs...IMO, it's more comfortable to carry around a small but thick PDA than a thin but long PDA. IMO, the CLIEs (even the 665) is too long. The NR70 series is much too long. PPCs, by and large, are also a bit too long. Try this, put a nice thick pager in your front pocket and sit down. Then try the same thing with a thinner but longer PDA.
Nobody wants a brick, so where do you compromise? A longer/wider yet thinner device can have a bigger screen, but will typically compromise on battery life, durability, and expansion (e.g. - for a PPC user this might mean dropping the CF slot in favor of just an SD slot). A shorter/narrower yet thicker device can probably throw more features inside but will have to use a smaller screen.
Back to the Oslo...I think I like it. I like the smaller but thicker aspect since it still provides good resolution (320x320), a fast processor, SDIO, and Bluetooth while being very pocketable. Combined with a Motorola Startac w/Bluetooth running on Verizon (sadly, no such thing exists), I think I might have my perfect combo. Which brings me to another problem...I can't (don't want to) carry a Bluetooth phone and a PDA in my pockets. I want a small, discrete (black Startac style) Bluetooth flip-phone that I can wear in a holster on my belt without looking like a geek.
Scott
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07-26-2002, 03:37 PM
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Pupil
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 41
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A Palm user's perspective
I have noticed the discourse on PIC becoming more shrill lately. I don't know if that's respresentative of the Palm community in general, but I hope not. I use both PocketPCs and Palms because I develop software for both. I choose to carry a Palm for personal reasons (software and peripheral investment, small size [m505]), but I can usually appreciate and understand the value of other models of both platforms.
The Palm community used to be very helpful, and discussions used to be constructive and thoughtful. Kinda like the PocketPC community is now.
On the Oslo... it looks innovative, which is what we've been missing from Palm lately. I'm optimistic about its future. I also think that PPC competition will only help both platforms continue to improve over time. We're now starting to see some nice, thin PPCs, and some bigger, more feature-laden Palms (Sony NR70, for example). It's all good in my view.
I don't see why one platform has to 'win' to the exclusion of the other.
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07-26-2002, 04:02 PM
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Thinker
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 390
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For some reason i still cannot see how the Oslo can be a sure winner.
I even see the sliding door as a big design flaw. Can you imagine playing a frenzied quake on that machine?if you push too hard you would slide the door instead of moving the d-pad. Holding the machine while trying to push more than one buttons with both hand will also be hell with sliding door. Unless of course the door come with some sort of locking mechanism.
Screen is just too smal, they definitely have to go with virtual grafitti.
Another one is CF exclusion. I don't even see how they could add it as peripheral considering the sliding door. the sledge cannot touch the bottom part. Despite it's size there are too many CF peripherals out there to ignore.
but than again there aren't ergonomically perfect PDA yet out there.
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07-26-2002, 04:11 PM
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Ponderer
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 69
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1) Do you expect everyone to like it? Keep in mind, almost no one has seen or used it.
2) Maybe because it's the sheer size of the Palm user base, but Palm Info Center regularly gets over 200 comments in some threads. With that number (mostly unregistered posters as well), you're bound to get some who don't like the device.
3) How is the fact that this device isn't for everyone bad? The beauty of OS 5 is that it's compatible with so many different chips and hardware sets. Palm source has said that diversity is the "killer app". That's hard to argue with. As you said, there are many Palm and "device agnostic" users wanting a device like this. Regardless of what some other Palm users think, they're going to get probably before the end of the year.
4) Pocket PC is not "chipping away" at market share with each successive quarter. I've seen it take a step back in the past by dropping a few percentage points and picking them back up next quarter, but it's been stuck in the same range for quite a while now.
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07-26-2002, 04:19 PM
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Contributing Editor Emeritus
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,228
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fundmgr90210
3) How is the fact that this device isn't for everyone bad? The beauty of OS 5 is that it's compatible with so many different chips and hardware sets.
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Yeah, as long as it is ARM. Pocket PCs can use any ARM chip too. The HP 928 WDA is a TI ARM processor, not StrongARM.
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4) Pocket PC is not "chipping away" at market share with each successive quarter. I've seen it take a step back in the past by dropping a few percentage points and picking them back up next quarter, but it's been stuck in the same range for quite a while now.
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I don't recall PPC marketshare being at 29%+ ever worldwide. Europe, yes, but world wide I think this is the first time north of 25%.
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07-26-2002, 05:18 PM
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Ponderer
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 69
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ed Hansberry
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Originally Posted by fundmgr90210
3) How is the fact that this device isn't for everyone bad? The beauty of OS 5 is that it's compatible with so many different chips and hardware sets.
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Yeah, as long as it is ARM. Pocket PCs can use any ARM chip too. The HP 928 WDA is a TI ARM processor, not StrongARM.
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4) Pocket PC is not "chipping away" at market share with each successive quarter. I've seen it take a step back in the past by dropping a few percentage points and picking them back up next quarter, but it's been stuck in the same range for quite a while now.
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I don't recall PPC marketshare being at 29%+ ever worldwide. Europe, yes, but world wide I think this is the first time north of 25%. |
Palm OS units will also be able to utilize chips from Motorola as well. As to market share, a couple more thoughts:
1) I don't believe Treo's are being counted as PDA's in the IDC survey (I could be wrong on this however);
2) More importantly though, I'm sure that current inventory of Palm OS units is suffering at the expense of those consumers waiting for an OS 5.0 device that is just around the corner. If OS 5.0 devices come out in time, I fully expect to see a 3% to 5% gain in market share this time next year.
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07-26-2002, 05:24 PM
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Contributing Editor Emeritus
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,228
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fundmgr90210
Palm OS units will also be able to utilize chips from Motorola as well
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That's right - the new Dragonball MX1 - an ARM chip.
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1) I don't believe Treo's are being counted as PDA's in the IDC survey (I could be wrong on this however);
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It is included.
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2) More importantly though, I'm sure that current inventory of Palm OS units is suffering at the expense of those consumers waiting for an OS 5.0 device that is just around the corner. If OS 5.0 devices come out in time, I fully expect to see a 3% to 5% gain in market share this time next year.
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Definitely true. We saw Pocket PC's dive in the 2-3 months preceeding PPC 2002's launch. However, this one is a 6-9 month dive before OS5 devices launch.
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07-26-2002, 05:33 PM
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Ponderer
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 69
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ed Hansberry
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Originally Posted by fundmgr90210
Palm OS units will also be able to utilize chips from Motorola as well
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That's right - the new Dragonball MX1 - an ARM chip.
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1) I don't believe Treo's are being counted as PDA's in the IDC survey (I could be wrong on this however);
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It is included.
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2) More importantly though, I'm sure that current inventory of Palm OS units is suffering at the expense of those consumers waiting for an OS 5.0 device that is just around the corner. If OS 5.0 devices come out in time, I fully expect to see a 3% to 5% gain in market share this time next year.
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Definitely true. We saw Pocket PC's dive in the 2-3 months preceeding PPC 2002's launch. However, this one is a 6-9 month dive before OS5 devices launch. |
I wasn't saying it wasn't an ARM chip.
I think you're splitting hairs with the 3 vs. 6 month dive scenario. Time will tell.
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07-26-2002, 05:37 PM
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Contributing Editor Emeritus
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,228
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fundmgr90210
I wasn't saying it wasn't an ARM chip.
I think you're splitting hairs with the 3 vs. 6 month dive scenario. Time will tell.
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Misunderstood what you were saying on the ARM. OS5 will run on any ARM4 or higher chip, just as Pocket PC will. Texas Instruments, Intel, Motorola, Granny's ARM shop, etc. :lol:
Time will tell on the marketshare. My point of the thought was Palm has a very difficult path ahead of it. The road is littered with dead companies that failed to guide their company through massive changes. Palm has shown enough progress IMHO that they will not be a dead company by any means, but they are also not out of the woods yet.
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