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Pete Paxton
06-15-2008, 11:00 AM
<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2320072,00.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,281...,2320072,00.asp</a><br /><br /></div><em>&quot;Calling the iPhone just a cell phone would be a mistake. Over the past 11 months, it has morphed into a handheld computer. With its new 3G connections and the promise of an abundance of PC-like applications, the iPhone appears to be on track to become a personal portable computing platform in its own right. When the new iPhone was launched this week, most of the folks covering it focused on the 3G radio and the low price. To be fair, some of the media did talk about the software, but I can't emphasize enough the fact that it is the software, coupled with a PC-class OS and Web browser, that will help make the iPhone the most portable computer on the market today&mdash;or even tomorrow.&quot;<br /><br /></em><img width="322" height="254" border="0" alt="" src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com/resizer/thumbs/size/600/spt/auto/1213506577.usr11642.jpg" /><br /><br />Three months ago I took only my iPhone with me to Little Rock. I thought about bringing my laptop but didn't want to lug it around. Turns out that the iPhone is all I needed. I could check my emails, surf the web, take notes, keep up with my calendar and contacts, watch movies, listen to music, and take a few notes. I was not able to create any word processing documents or spreadsheets though I could view them. That may change when the iPhone app store is ready. Office suites, Bibles, task managers, and electronic wallets should become available. Once MobileMe is kicks in, everything will sync automatically. What do you think? Do you agree with Tim Bajarin from PCMag that the iPhone become the most potable computer on the market today? Is there another handheld device (Tilt, Touch Diamond, Experia, Bold, E71) you think does or will do an even better job or do you grimace at the thought of a pocket mobile device being called a portable computer? Let us know what you think.

benjimen
06-15-2008, 12:20 PM
Slow news day? :rolleyes:

Don't Panic!
06-15-2008, 12:42 PM
Calling an iPhone or even a Pocket PC a portable computer is cringe worthy indeed. Tim Bajarin calling an iPhone a Pocket PC did make me smile though. I think I'll quote this article the next time someone says how innovative the iPhone is. My God, I'll say, did you know that the iPhone is a Pocket PC? It's true! PC Magazine says so. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are finally working together. Who'd a thunk it.

adamz
06-15-2008, 02:34 PM
Shouldn't this be on iPhoneThoughts.com?

After seeing the Touch Diamond's new Remote Desktop client (http://pocketnow.com/index.php?a=portal_detail&t=news&id=5454), I think the superiority of the Windows Mobile platform for mobile computing is pretty clear.

stevew
06-15-2008, 02:37 PM
With the iPhone now sporting 3G, GPS, MS Exchange, and new apps from the app store which will sure fill in all the gaps, this is everything a windows mobile phone has tried to be for years.

surur
06-15-2008, 02:44 PM
I agree with Adamz. This does not deserve to be on PPCThoughts.

The iPhone does not come close to being a portable computer. It cant handle peripherals like a keyboard or mouse, you have no access to the file system (to store word documents for example), the device is locked down like no other.

How about asking if the HTC Advantage is a portable computer. That makes much more sense. USB hosting so you can use a keyboard, mouse,or even external hard drive. Full web browser courtesy of Opera Mobile 9.5. Huge VGA screen. 16 GB of storage that you can use for anything you want.

In short, this story is pathetic. You may as well ask if a Razr is a portable computer. At least you can take videos with a Razr.

Surur

Jeff_R
06-15-2008, 03:38 PM
If you mean it in the loosest definition, as in a portable device that can do computation, then yes, but obviously that is so vague as to be useless.

With a more strict definition, like every other question of this sort, it depends on usage; for some, it is more computer than they need. For others, it is inadequate. If you consume content, it's probably fine; if you create content, it's probably not. For me, I have this wacky thing I like to do called "copy/paste" :) so for me, the iPhone falls far short.

My HP2133; THAT'S a portable computer.

alese
06-15-2008, 03:48 PM
Of course it's a pocket computer, all smartphones and PDAs are, they have CPUs, RAM, Storage, OS, installable SW...

Can iPhone replace Notebook - only if your requirements are really really small (low) and if you are willing to compromise a lot.

Is it better than PocketPCs and WM devices as Computer/Notebook replacement - NO, it can compare in some areas, it's better in some and it lacks in some.
Not just because it doesn't have SW yet, but simply because it's still too limited compared to WM and older PPCs to really fill that role - pretty interface is not enough in this case, you need SW that can handle more than just WEB and Mail, like Office creation, maybe access to file system... and you need HW capable of delivering somewhat decent experience like external keyboard and mouse, VGA output, USB host, expandability, maybe higher resolution - it's a pain to create office files on VGA device HVGA or QVGA it's just much worse.

virain
06-15-2008, 04:00 PM
With the iPhone now sporting 3G, GPS, MS Exchange, and new apps from the app store which will sure fill in all the gaps, this is everything a windows mobile phone has tried to be for years.
You mean "everything a WM phone has been for years?"
Apple should try harder to get to that point. iPhone is pretty much entertainment device, you can watch, listen, but can't create. WM phone is both. There are plenty of 3rd party apps to satisfy any of your entertainment needs, browsers, media players, games, etc... On top of that you CAN cut and paste, edit Office document, draw or "ink" and these are just a few basic functions that Touch screen smartphone can and IMHO must do. And not only WM, Symbian can, Palm could (I am not sure about latest version). iPhone missing it. Let's hope for iPhone 3! :)

Pete Paxton
06-15-2008, 04:08 PM
I guess my frustration is this. I used to read articles relating Windows Mobile devices to portable computers. I do think handheld devices are similar to portable computers, watered down of course but still similar. You can surf the web, view pics, movies, email, type docs, keep up with your personal management. Is it a full fledged computer? No, but it is a portable computer that can fit in your hands and perform many of the functions of a full fledged computer. I have owned 8 different MS Mobile devices and none of them gave me that "wow" feeling the way the iPhone has. I also have a Tmobile Dash but I seldom use it anymore. Why? Three reasons. 1. Simplicity - the iPhone is simply a much more user friendly device and very graphical. 2. Stability - my iPhone has never locked up on me where the Dash usually locks up a couple times per week. 3. The experience - 90% of what I do daily on my Dash I can do on my iPhone. Surfing the web, typing emails, viewing pics, watching movies, even keeping up with my schedule is just a better experience than on my Dash. When I use the iPhone, I feel like I'm using a portable computer more than any Windows Mobile device I've ever had. Microsoft frustrates me. They have so much money and so much talent and yet over the last 5 years they have been anything but innovative and very incremental. They just seem so complacent. I actually wish they'd get rid of their registry all together and start over. Vista is a joke and their mobile OS just doesn't seem to be going anywhere. I have some hope for the Experia but I'm not holding my breath.

Pete Paxton
06-15-2008, 04:31 PM
Oh, and as far as the iPhone missing many features such as document editing and cut and paste, I agree with you and that is what really frustrates me. The iphone was announced a year and a half ago and has been out for a year. With the new iPhone app store coming I can pretty much bet that by summer's end we will see an office suite, bibles, electronic wallets, and perhaps a program or hack to cut and paste. Microsoft has had over a year to blow this thing wide open and yet we've almost seen nothing. By the end of summer, what will Microsoft's bragging rights be?

felixdd
06-15-2008, 05:32 PM
Well, not until it can copy and paste.

randalllewis
06-15-2008, 06:06 PM
No, the iPhone is a cool device but there are others (as with iPods) that do the same and more and don't enjoy the real Apple Advantage: hype with a capital H.

Also, why have so few commentators noted that once again Apple intends to require its customers to only buy software from Apple. I don't question the legality of the Ap Store any more than I do iTunes, but just imagine if any other tech company tried to do that. It is a great marketing gimmick and it underscores my long held belief that Apple is really just a marketing and product design firm.

Janak Parekh
06-15-2008, 06:21 PM
No, the iPhone is a cool device but there are others (as with iPods) that do the same and more and don't enjoy the real Apple Advantage: hype with a capital H. Not quite. I have to admit, as an iPhone owner, it's one of the first devices I've actually used to surf the web as opposed to one of my computers. Since I'm in range of my computers nearly all the time, that really says something, and I think most of the compliments the iPhone gets as a mobile computing device is from its web browser.

I haven't yet tried Opera 9.5, and am looking forward to doing so. I have tried virtually every other mobile web browser, though, and have been extremely disappointed. Even without Flash, Mobile Safari is hands down far superior to everything else I've used.

Apart from that, I do think the iPhone has a ways to go. However, do note that "portable computer" has no single definition, and all of you being completely dismissive of Pete's opinion aren't doing yourselves a favor. If you think the iPhone falls short, fine, and I do know some people for whom I wouldn't recommend the iPhone and have suggested WM or (waiting for) Android instead. But it doesn't mean he's an idiot or something. ;)

Also, why have so few commentators noted that once again Apple intends to require its customers to only buy software from Apple. I don't question the legality of the Ap Store any more than I do iTunes, but just imagine if any other tech company tried to do that. No need to imagine -- Danger did that with the Hiptop (amongst smartphones; amongst "dumb phones", exclusive software stores are commonplace, although probably not germane to this discussion). This is nowhere near a new/revolutionary model. Also, if you ask many folks in the WM community, they are highly tired of the mediocre, overcharging retailers we have. Handango et. al. overcharge and underdeliver. Do I agree with Apple's lockdown? Not really. However, I do think the App Store is an excellent idea for the average consumer and I wouldn't mind seeing Microsoft doing the same thing.

--janak

surur
06-15-2008, 06:41 PM
I never get why people with clearly low requirements write for enthusiast web sites.

If you are tired of Windows Mobile its time to move on, not to spend your time trying to take your readership with you.

Where is your coverage of exciting new windows mobile devices such as the Samsung Omnia? I bet you have more articles about the iPhone 3G than the Windows Mobile device with similar but better specs and features?

All this telling us why the iPhone is better just turns your readers off.

Surur

Darius Wey
06-15-2008, 06:58 PM
Where is your coverage of exciting new windows mobile devices such as the Samsung Omnia?

Pocket PC Thoughts: Samsung's Feature-Packed SGH-i900 Makes An Appearance (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/news/show/89182/)
Pocket PC Thoughts: Samsung Omnia (SGH-i900) Announced (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/news/show/89475/)
Pocket PC Thoughts: Hands-on With the Samsung SGH-i900 OMNIA Windows Mobile Professional Smartphone (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/news/show/89484/)
Pocket PC Thoughts: PPCSG Test Drives the Omnia (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/news/show/89575/)

I bet you have more articles about the iPhone 3G than the Windows Mobile device with similar but better specs and features?

You may want to take a look at the archives. We haven't posted a single article on the iPhone 3G since its unveiling at WWDC.

Janak Parekh
06-15-2008, 07:40 PM
I never get why people with clearly low requirements write for enthusiast web sites. ... and I never get why people make sentences like this that make no sense. Listen to what you just said. It's an "enthusiast" website. And I can safely tell you that everyone who posts here is an enthusiast. What do you want? A professional news site that covers WM frivolously? If so, then you should read one of the PC magazines.

I bet you have more articles about the iPhone 3G than the Windows Mobile device with similar but better specs and features? As Darius pointed out, we have had pretty much zero to date. The only thing we posted on WWDC was the Mobile Me service.

For your information, being aware of the competition is something we've always done here. We post about Symbian, Android, iPhone, etc. It's a fairly low volume. We actively want to see WM devices improve, and that's why we post.

All this telling us why the iPhone is better just turns your readers off. With all due respect, given the tone of your post, if you're turned off, why are you posting in this thread then?

--janak

efjay
06-15-2008, 07:42 PM
The only thing I see that the iphone has over WM and other mobile OS's which is mentioned over and over is "its cool" and its browser. Its acknowledged that in actual functionality it is inferior when compared to WM but it appears that doesnt make any difference because the iphone is cool and has a good browser. All these "experts" forget that with Windows Mobile your device can be anything you want it to be - with Wizbar Advanced, Pointui, SPB Mobile Shell and Pocket Plus, Contact Breeze, Pocket Informant, the list goes on. You are not restricted to being just another iphone clone user. Any developer or phone operator could have stepped up and made WM look just as "cool" as their imagination let them - but they havent. As for the browser you have choices - Netfront's concept version works well and will support flash in its release version and Opera - if they ever decide to release the browser for sale that will be another alternative and will bring the desktop browsing experience to WM smartphones.

But it seems because the iphone has a good interface it makes it superior to every other device even though these devices are able to perform the same functions and even more. It seems perfectly all right to the apple faithful to say the missing functions will be implemented by 3rd parties so it doesnt really matter that the iphone is missing these basic functions - but no other OS is given such consideration for its shortcomings.

And people seem to have forgotten not so long ago WM users were clamouring for more one-handed support and less touching of the screen. Now because apple has it everyone wants touch as well. Maybe after that people will want to use their phones telepathically ?!

So yes, lets all say the iphone is a personal computer, no other smartphone has done or can do what the iphone can do and lets all trot down to the store and buy iphones, only buy what apple wants us to buy, and stop thinking for ourselves. I for one will be looking beyond the eye candy and getting a device that is fully funtional and which allows me to do what I want without having to get big brother Jobsy's approval.

Fritzly
06-15-2008, 08:23 PM
The only thing I see that the iphone has over WM and other mobile OS's which is mentioned over and over is "its cool" and its browser.

I am afraid you forgot the UI. I have been using PCs since the time of DOS strings so I can tell you that the UI is a fundamental part of a device.
Stick with your WM if you were happy with it. I will check back WM when V7 will be out.

surur
06-15-2008, 08:33 PM
... and I never get why people make sentences like this that make no sense.

If he's so satisfied with an iPhone that he thinks its a mobile computer he clearly does not have high requirements for his "mobile computer". I would think access to the file system would be a minimum, not to mention cut and paste. He did not even have a way to receive files from others, except for e-mail, and even then he could not store it permananetly locally.


Listen to what you just said. It's an "enthusiast" website. And I can safely tell you that everyone who posts here is an enthusiast. What do you want? A professional news site that covers WM frivolously? If so, then you should read one of the PC magazines.

Enthusiasts of what? I would hope writers for PokcetPCThoughts would be enthusiast of Windows Mobile, not the iPhone.

We actively want to see WM devices improve, and that's why we post.

With all due respect, given the tone of your post, if you're turned off, why are you posting in this thread then?

--janak

Me posting here is much more likely to have an effect on your writing than you posting an article will have an effect on how MS runs windows mobile.

Surur

Janak Parekh
06-15-2008, 08:47 PM
If he's so satisfied with an iPhone that he thinks its a mobile computer he clearly does not have high requirements for his "mobile computer". Everyone has different requirements. If you were strictly referring to his personal mobile device needs as opposed to his "credentials", then I'll take my comment back: you have a valid opinion, but I still don't agree with it. I believe it's useful to have enthusiasts with different requirements, some of which are going to be power users, others who are not.

I would think access to the file system would be a minimum, not to mention cut and paste. Again, that's your opinion. For example, it has long been argued that a filesystem should ideally be something that's completely hidden by the UI, especially on mobile devices. Does the iPhone have enough facilities to replace the flexibility of a filesystem UI? Certainly not yet for certain power users, but it's enough for some people. We'll see how that evolves over time.

As for cut-and-paste: yes, I think that's an omission. If it's a deal-breaker for you, that's a legitimate opinion.

Enthusiasts of what? I would hope writers for PokcetPCThoughts would be enthusiast of Windows Mobile, not the iPhone. Are you saying that enthusiasm is limited to one platform? Pete freely admitted he owns both a WM and an iPhone. To me, someone who's solely an enthusiast of one platform rapidly devolves into a fanboy. The best way to see a platform improve is to be an enthusiast of the form factor, to use the tools one needs, and appreciate the features each of the platforms have with interest of seeing them improve. Sure, we're here with a WM-centric focus, and would like to see WM improve, but that doesn't mean we won't post on the competition at times.

Me posting here is much more likely to have an effect on your writing than you posting an article will have an effect on how MS runs windows mobile. This doesn't jive with your previous assertion. ;) Also, for the MVPs in the group (of which I was one), one of their key roles is to give MS feedback. MVP advice certainly doesn't go ignored, although Microsoft won't always agree with it.

--janak

Pete Paxton
06-15-2008, 08:55 PM
First of all, I didn't mean to sound so down on Windows Mobile as perhaps it does. And the last thing I meant to do is turn people off. I'm not for or against any particular company. I just know what works best for me. When the iPhone was first announced I thought "Oh yea, wait until Microsoft counters with its next OS." When the iPhone was actually released to the public last June I just knew we'd see something from MS that would put Apple in their place. But after messing with my nephew's iPhone in December I realized that MS didn't really have anything in the future that is similar. I took the plunge and bought the iPhone and I've loved the experience ever since. I'm just disappointed that MS hasn't countered with anything like it. Do some of you agree? I've had an Ipaq 3600, Casseopia EM500, Dell X5, Dell X30, Tmobile SDA, and Tmobile Dash so I'm not exactly inexperienced with Windows Mobile and I'm fully aware of the limitations of the iPhone but I still have a better, more positive experience with it. For me it's the closest device I've ever had to a portable computer. Keep in mind this is just my opinion. I'm not trying to take readers anywhere. But I bet there are some that agree that MS needs to make some changes quickly.

Rocco Augusto
06-15-2008, 09:04 PM
I never get why people with clearly low requirements write for enthusiast web sites.

Pete uses email, web browsing and all of the other PIM features of his device... how is that a low requirement since the iPhone and his previous Windows Mobile devices are just that PIM devices?

If you are tired of Windows Mobile its time to move on, not to spend your time trying to take your readership with you.Last time I checked this wasn't your call, this was my call and I enjoy Pete's articles. I enjoy having an editor working with our site that uses more than the Windows Mobile Standard platform as it keeps everything fresh.

As Janak pointed out above, when you focus to much on one thing you quickly become a fanboy and then start making snarky comments on other peoples sites becuase you don't like that they covered something that was outside of your comfort zone.

Rocky Sullivan
06-15-2008, 09:08 PM
I think the debate is a perfectly good one.

I recall in the early days of PPC the Microsoft platform being dismissed by palm fanboys and looked what happened - where are palm today ? I am a smartphone fan and for me it just happened to be Microsoft who have been the innovators in this area in the last few years and that is why i use windows mobile. But I also try other platforms (I regularly use Symbian S60 on my N95) and real smartphone fans should always look at what the competition are doing and how our mobile experience can be developed.

The best thing about the 1st generation iphone (I bought one for my wife) is the music and video player. It was the first real convergence device. Audio, video, and phone. I know we had the ability on WM to do all those things but what made the iphone really simple to use is it was tied in to a good online purchasing experience. Prior to this I know lots of people that would carry a PPC but also use an ipod.

The second best thing with iphone 1st generation was the browser - again really simple to use but very useful and one of the best mobile internet experiences available.

I think the 2nd generation is a huge step forward - GPS, 3G, 3rd Party Apps (direct downloads to device) and the mobile me service. These additions will turn the previously good looking but fairly simple 1st generation phone in to a real best smartphone contender.

I have been using smartphones (and previously connected PDAs) for years and for me there are three parts to every good smartphone. The hardware, the software and the additional services.

If I buy a windows mobile device - it is usually network unlocked - its not that i cant get devices on a network its just that they take their time to arrive and are occasionally slowed down or hampered by poor network software additions. I normally buy additional software directly from the developer or via Handango mainly through a PC. The services I buy from the network - like data, or online services vary in cost and availability.

The reason i use a Nokia N95 as a second device - is that i got it for a good subsidized rate from my network, they provide unlimited data for a reasonable cost and they offered good additional services - it came with a slingbox and slingplayer and also allowed access to Orb. I get 80 hours per month for either slingbox or orb streaming plus unlimited data all for £10 per month. Now I would love it if the network provided this with a windows mobile phone but they don't - so i use an N95 and to be honest I think its a great device - the 5 megapixel camera and video recording are outstanding for a phone.


Apple appear to be in a unique position where they seem to have more control in the three key areas.

The hardware is good (could be better), they provide the software and media through iTunes, and they have convinced the networks to provide not just unlimited data but also free wifi in a lot of areas.

When the 2nd generation was announced my immediate reaction was that this was big news and will make a major dent in to the windows mobile market. Perhaps it could even kill off Windows Mobile which has such a bad image at the moment (mostly unjustified).

On reflection I think Apple have missed a trick - and surprisingly its in the hardware. They need to address two key areas. One is the fairly obvious text entry, the biggest complaint for 1st generation users. They should either come up with a slim slide out keyboard (not easy) or significantly improve the on screen experience - tactile response to onscreen presses would have been a start.

The second area and the most important for me is the camera(s). I have become so used to having a 5 megapixel camera that can do good video that i no longer feel i can do without it - I will use it on business trips to take video and pictures I need to share with colleagues. I use it regularly at weekends and even on holidays as my main camera. I also use the video call feature on my phone - not in everyday use but still regularly enough to not want to lose it.

I think some of the windows mobile devices due for release this year, the Xperia X1, Samsung Omnia, and HTC Diamond/pro - will give the 2nd generation iphone a run for its money.

But watch this space because Apple will be developing the hardware further (they are recruiting for camera engineers now) and expect to see another jump in spec for the 3rd generation Iphone. This time next year will be very interesting.

Rocco Augusto
06-15-2008, 09:12 PM
I'm just disappointed that MS hasn't countered with anything like it. Do some of you agree?

I for one am incredibly disappointed in Microsoft. The iPhone has been released for over a year and the best thing we have to counter it at the moment is to import the ridiculously expensive HTC Touch Diamond and even then the solution was provided by a third party company and not Microsoft themselves.

From what we have been hearing about for years is Microsoft has something incredible up their sleeves but unfortunately I have the feeling we won't see this incredible new platform arise until the technology itself will see dull and boring and then we're back at square one.

My honest opinion is Microsoft needs to stop screwing around and take complete control of their platform. Even if they do manage to get Windows Mobile 7 out the door and into the hands of manufactures and carriers before 2009, chances are we won't see any upgrades for our handsets at all and if we do they won't come out for months after the OS is released.

Don't get me wrong, I strongly believe that Microsoft is capable of pulling a rabbit out of the hat and making us all giddy with excitement over the new OS but on their current timetable the chances of that happening are slim to none.

Rocky Sullivan
06-15-2008, 09:14 PM
Sorry about the length of the last post - got away from me a little

surur
06-15-2008, 09:40 PM
Pete uses email, web browsing and all of the other PIM features of his device... how is that a low requirement since the iPhone and his previous Windows Mobile devices are just that PIM devices?

He did not say PDA, he said mobile computer.

Last time I checked this wasn't your call, this was my call and I enjoy Pete's articles. I enjoy having an editor working with our site that uses more than the Windows Mobile Standard platform as it keeps everything fresh.

As Janak pointed out above, when you focus to much on one thing you quickly become a fanboy and then start making snarky comments on other peoples sites becuase you don't like that they covered something that was outside of your comfort zone.

Of course its your call, and if you dont mind alienating your readership while WM grew 90% year on year, fine and good.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3986/alexatrafficrankhm7.jpg

Surur

blazingwolf
06-15-2008, 09:42 PM
It's getting a tad snippy in here.

Pete Paxton
06-15-2008, 09:54 PM
I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone in this post. I'm kind of shocked that it did. I was just posting an interesting article, how it relates to other devices, and my opinion on it. Please know that I am not saying that the iPhone or any other handheld device is a portable computer. I did say however that the iPhone is the closest experience to a computer in my pocket that I've ever had. Again, that's for me. My experience. For what I use it for. Not everyone uses a desktop, laptop, or handheld device the same way. Believe me, if the i900 Omnia or any other future device proves to be a better mobile experience for me, I'll get one. If not, I will stick with the iPhone. It has been the most user friendly, stable, and most fun of any of the devices I've had not to mention it suits my (not necessarily your) needs.

Rob Alexander
06-15-2008, 10:01 PM
However, do note that "portable computer" has no single definition, and all of you being completely dismissive of Pete's opinion aren't doing yourselves a favor. If you think the iPhone falls short, fine, and I do know some people for whom I wouldn't recommend the iPhone and have suggested WM or (waiting for) Android instead. But it doesn't mean he's an idiot or something. ;)


Well, Pete's certainly not an idiot, but perhaps he doesn't share the same perspective as some others of us. Now I couldn't necessarily say the same for Tim as this is about as useless a column as I've run across in some time. It's not that I care whether or not he thinks the iPhone is a portable computer, but it's mildly irritating that he acts like the idea is something new as if it's only now that the iPhone exists that one might even ask such a question.

For heaven's sake, I was using a portable handheld computer back in 1998 when I bought my first Velo 1. Back then, the discussion of whether a particular device (say a Velo versus a Palm Pilot) can realistically be considered a handheld portable computer was relevant because the concept was new. (Hint: Yes, they're all portable handheld computers, including the iPhone.) In 2008, it just sounds silly for people to be writing about how they can use their iPhone in place of their laptops because I've been doing that for a decade with various Windows CE-based devices.

Heck, I've even given Powerpoint presentations directly from my handhelds/PPCs at professional conferences. Is anyone doing that on their iPhones yet? I've taken lengthy notes during presentations and emailed them to colleagues for comment in later sessions using my handheld/PPC instead of a laptop. I've sat in a bar with colleagues and built Excel spreadsheet models on my handheld/PPC that we used in a presentation the next day. This is all starting before the turn of the millennium. I'm sure it's all really neat if you've never seen it before, but none of this is new with the iPhone. It's old news.

It's as if Apple decided to build a car and the people who bought it wrote articles about how amazing it is that they can actually get in this new Applecar, turn it on and move quickly from place to place around their city. All these people who had never owned a car before would be thinking this was really revolutionary, while everyone else who had owned cars for years would think it was all just a bit hysterical and naive. (We would all agree, though, that whatever interface Apple had come up with to replace the steering wheel and pedals was totally cool.:cool:)

The funny thing is how Tim manages to sound like he's saying something provocative when he's really saying nothing at all. The whole article is just one inane meaningless phrase after another. Look at this one... "Over the past 11 months, it has morphed into a handheld computer." What exactly does this mean? Does he mean that, when you first bought your iPhone, it wasn't a handheld computer, but over time the hardware has physically changed and now it is? If you define a handheld computer as something that has a CPU and memory and that runs applications, then it always was one. If you require expansion and the attachment of peripherals in your definition (which I don't really agree with, but some here have suggested) then it wasn't and still isn't. It either always was or always wasn't a portable computer; it didn't 'morph' into anything.

Or how about this one... "I can't emphasize enough the fact that it is the software, coupled with a PC-class OS and Web browser, that will help make the iPhone the most portable computer on the market today—or even tomorrow." Huh? "The most portable computer?" It's certainly not the smallest handheld computer out there. For example, the HTC Touch is much smaller and it does everything the iPhone does and more. So 'most portable' doesn't seem to fit if you mean size. What else could he mean by 'most portable'? It doesn't have the longest battery life of all handheld computers so it's not the 'most portable' in that sense. It doesn't work in as many countries as a whole raft of other portable computing devices, so it's not the 'most portable' in that sense. Seriously, what is this guy even talking about?

I'm sorry, but the whole column makes no sense. From my perspective, it's just one more in a long line of articles that belong to the category of: 'I just love my iPhone so much I have to write about it even if I don't make any sense doing it'. It's the literary equivalent of standing on a beach shouting that you love your girlfriend back when you were wide-eyed and young. :rolleyes: Love is a wonderful thing, but it's not always rational... as this article makes abundantly clear.

unxmully
06-15-2008, 10:09 PM
I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone in this post.

You only offended one person and he's been this site and Brighthand stoking the anti-iPhone fires with a vengeance. Well trying to anyway.

For a long time, people who frequented this site tried to push the limits of Pocket PC and now Windows Mobile into "real" computer land. Editing office documents, browsing, email, the whole PIM thing, writing apps in basic and so on.

And now you ask the same question about the iPhone and somehow this is responsible for the demise of the Windows Mobile platform and who knows, the end of civilisation itself.

I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

Pete Paxton
06-15-2008, 10:23 PM
Again, it's all in perspective. If someone thinks their device is the most portable like computing experience they've had, who is someone else to say they're wrong? I've used many Windows mobile devices. I've used Powerpoint, Word, Excel, remote desktop, file sharing, and just about every other feature MS has offered over the last few years. There are many MS devices that can do what the iPhone does and more. But I've always surfed the web, watched pics and videos, kept up with my calendar, write and receive email, and a slew of other things more than office suite stuff. The iPhone is superior in what I use in my opinion. If any other device besides the iPhone does a better job and is a better experience for you, I think that's great. But if the iPhone works as well for my needs as another device works for you, why does that make me wrong? When I decide to buy a new car, I hope I can share it with others even though I didn't buy the same brand they did. I doubt I'll use an Apple product forever but for now it's what best suits me. Remember I posted this on "Smartphone Thoughts and Pocket PC Thoughts - Daily News, Views, Rants & Raves."

Rocco Augusto
06-15-2008, 10:31 PM
Of course its your call, and if you dont mind alienating your readership while WM grew 90% year on year, fine and good.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3986/alexatrafficrankhm7.jpg


That chart might actually mean something if Alexa wasn't just gathering information from users who have a toolbar or extension in their browser to send information back to Alexa. What about the billions, and yes I do mean billions, of users that search the web with no means of transmitting that information back to Alexa? At the end of the day Alexa is nothing more than a glorified ego stroke to the few people that buy into it. That's why almost all sites still gather their analytic data the old fashion way ;)

No one is saying you are not entitled to your opinion, but what I am saying is that it is 100% possible to state those opinions without being uppity and rude because you don't agree with them.

Paragon
06-15-2008, 11:09 PM
Shouldn't this thread be moved to some off topic forum somewhere? Last I heard this was a Windows Mobile site....making all else off topic.

Dave

Pete Paxton
06-15-2008, 11:16 PM
Well, it was supposed to be about smartphones and how they can be viewed as portable computers. That's why I put it in "Smartphone Talk."

virain
06-15-2008, 11:26 PM
Well, this discussion reminds me topic once posted on umpcportal.com, What is the difference between MID and UMPC? If you draw a parallel, iPhone id more on a MID side (and I believe above website categorizes it as one) build for day to day small tasks and entertainment, while WM device is more in the UMPC corner, better suited to work on more serious tasks, s.a. writing Word document, or creating/editing Spread Sheets, polishing PowerPoint presentation, writing a program, trading stocks, etc... So, everybody is a winner here. iPhone is great for some people, others, who demand more functionality will stay in WM camp.

dh
06-16-2008, 12:18 AM
Whatever you want to call it, I think the latest version of the iPhone is a pretty compelling device.

We've had one in our family for a while (my wife uses it) and I've always resisted because of the lack of proper applications. iPhone 2.0 will change that - I can't wait to see how Pocket Informant works out. The MobileMe app looks to be pretty cool too.

For me, the problem with WM is that I have not seen any real progress for ages. If you take away the phone part, my old Axim X5 is as good a PDA as my current HP6940. My Sharp Zaurus still rates as my favorite PDA ever.

The only thing that would stop me upgrading on July 11 is that I'm going through a hardware refresh for our wedding photo business so funds are tight.

By the way, I really think that the way forward for the "Thoughts" sites (at least in the smartphone area) is to embrace and discuss all the smartphone options and get away from the Microsoft specific bias.

Janak Parekh
06-16-2008, 12:39 AM
Well, Pete's certainly not an idiot, but perhaps he doesn't share the same perspective as some others of us. Now I couldn't necessarily say the same for Tim as this is about as useless a column as I've run across in some time. Yeah, I don't care much for the article either. I think the article makes one point of some interest, namely that the desktop-class "web browser" may be the killer app in the Smartphone/"mobile computer" market, as 123 was in the desktop market back in the 80s. Perhaps that's the more interesting question to ask, as opposed to the general question, which tends to draw out opinions as to what appropriate use cases are.

Other than that, the article is more or less generic material, probably written for a far more general audience than us. Ironically, he goes back to '89 but skips the intervening years. ;)

--janak

Janak Parekh
06-16-2008, 12:42 AM
That chart might actually mean something if Alexa wasn't just gathering information from users who have a toolbar or extension in their browser to send information back to Alexa. What about the billions, and yes I do mean billions, of users that search the web with no means of transmitting that information back to Alexa? At the end of the day Alexa is nothing more than a glorified ego stroke to the few people that buy into it. That's why almost all sites still gather their analytic data the old fashion way ;) Moreover, the forum merger of Pocket PC Thoughts and Smartphone Thoughts should drastically affect Alexa rankings. As it stands, this "thread" is on forums.thoughtsmedia.com, not www.pocketpcthoughts.com or www.smartphonethoughts.com.

--janak

Macguy59
06-16-2008, 12:44 AM
Shouldn't this be on iPhoneThoughts.com?


Do you also complain when Palm OS, Symbian, etc. based devices are discussed? The thread title is pretty descriptive making it easy to ignore if it doesn't interest you.

Macguy59
06-16-2008, 12:54 AM
I I have owned 8 different MS Mobile devices and none of them gave me that "wow" feeling the way the iPhone has. I also have a Tmobile Dash but I seldom use it anymore. Why? Three reasons. 1. Simplicity - the iPhone is simply a much more user friendly device and very graphical. 2. Stability - my iPhone has never locked up on me where the Dash usually locks up a couple times per week. 3. The experience - 90% of what I do daily on my Dash I can do on my iPhone. Surfing the web, typing emails, viewing pics, watching movies, even keeping up with my schedule is just a better experience than on my Dash.

While I also enjoy my iPhone (and will be buying the 3G version) the "wow" feeling it gives you doesn't provide evidence of it's abilities. Clearly you are easily wowed as an iPhone owner :rolleyes: While the hardware from a design perspective is appealing it's the OS that sets it apart IMO. As for your specific needs . . . YMMV. WM users should be excited by the UI overhaul (for most of the elements) that HTC has done with the Diamond. The standard UI is really showing it's age.

Macguy59
06-16-2008, 01:04 AM
You only offended one person and he's been this site and Brighthand stoking the anti-iPhone fires with a vengeance. Well trying to anyway.

For a long time, people who frequented this site tried to push the limits of Pocket PC and now Windows Mobile into "real" computer land. Editing office documents, browsing, email, the whole PIM thing, writing apps in basic and so on.

And now you ask the same question about the iPhone and somehow this is responsible for the demise of the Windows Mobile platform and who knows, the end of civilisation itself.

I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

LOL *clappy guy*

surur
06-16-2008, 01:06 AM
Yeah, I don't care much for the article either. I think the article makes one point of some interest, namely that the desktop-class "web browser" may be the killer app in the Smartphone/"mobile computer" market, as 123 was in the desktop market back in the 80s. Perhaps that's the more interesting question to ask, as opposed to the general question, which tends to draw out opinions as to what appropriate use cases are.

--janak

Windows Mobile now has and is getting several "desktop class" web browsers, namely Opera Mobile 9.5, as found on the HTC Advantage II, HTC Touch Diamond and Samsung Omnia, Netfront 3.5 which is available on free beta, Skyfire, Mobile Firefox and the new PocketIE with the desktop rendering engine.

Opera Mobile 9.5 is already better than Mobile Safari (http://blogs.zdnet.com/mobile-gadgeteer/?p=1107), and when used on larger screens clearly demonstrate this. Opera Mobile does better on both the Acid II and Acid III tests than Safari.

Surur

randalllewis
06-16-2008, 01:10 AM
This is nowhere near a new/revolutionary model. Also, if you ask many folks in the WM community, they are highly tired of the mediocre, overcharging retailers we have. Handango et. al. overcharge and underdeliver. Do I agree with Apple's lockdown? Not really. However, I do think the App Store is an excellent idea for the average consumer and I wouldn't mind seeing Microsoft doing the same thing.

--janak

I didn't say it was a new model. I said I have issues with it. I am aware that some on line retailers have had issues and I am sure Apple will execute well. That is not the point. Poorly executing retailers provide opportunity for competition. Apple provides no opportunity. Don't like our prices? Tough! Don't like our selection? Too bad! Perhaps Sony should require consumers to purchase its Columbia Studio titles from the Sony store...and to carry it one step further...only allow them to be played on a Playstation 3.

And PS. While I have little tolerance for Apple hype, I am absolutely NOT opposed to reading articles on this site about other platforms.

Janak Parekh
06-16-2008, 01:21 AM
Windows Mobile now has and is getting several "desktop class" web browsers, namely Opera Mobile 9.5, as found on the HTC Advantage II, HTC Touch Diamond and Samsung Omnia, Netfront 3.5 which is available on free beta, Skyfire, Mobile Firefox and the new PocketIE with the desktop rendering engine. As I've said, I'm looking forward to trying Opera 9.5 out. I was not impressed with previews of the new IEM, although Skyfire does look promising as well.

I didn't say it was a new model. I said I have issues with it. I am aware that some on line retailers have had issues and I am sure Apple will execute well. That is not the point. Poorly executing retailers provide opportunity for competition. Apple provides no opportunity. Don't like our prices? Tough! That's true, except I'm not impressed with any of the WM resellers. ;) Competition is great in theory, but someone needs to step up and execute. If not, Microsoft ought to lead. (And, yes, I understand that doing that now might be viewed as anticompetitive, so it's a difficult line to walk.)

Perhaps Sony should require consumers to purchase its Columbia Studio titles from the Sony store...and to carry it one step further...only allow them to be played on a Playstation 3. Ha! I'm not quite sure the analogy applies, as you're talking about software platforms here as opposed to a standard movie platform. I do fully understand your point about Apple's exclusivity model, and I didn't say I cared for it, although I am immensely curious to see how it fares out. I don't think we're actually debating on this point.

(Worse, I'm about to break down and buy a PS3 for Blu-Ray. I so completely managed to ditch Sony's products, and now I'm being dragged back... <sigh>)

--janak

Pete Paxton
06-16-2008, 02:01 AM
The graphical interface of the "wow" factor is only a part of what I'm referring to. I love not having to carry pics with me because the iPhone is so good at viewing them. Movies play fantastically and so does music. Email is a breeze as is keeping up with my schedule. It also wow's me that I don't have to reboot it every few days like I did my Dash. I certainly don't dislike my Dash or Windows Mobile but I expect a simple, user friendly, and stable experience and after all these years, I think we all deserve this. Does the iPhone have some growing up to do? You bet and I think they will. I know it's not for everyone but I don't think it's ridiculous to compare it to other devices as to whether or not it makes a good portable computer like device. I'm also certainly not an Apple fanboy. In a year I may very well carry another device that best suits my needs. And if it's a Windows Mobile device, I'll be questioning why others aren't like them.

Paragon
06-16-2008, 02:16 AM
The graphical interface of the "wow" factor is only a part of what I'm referring to. I love not having to carry pics with me because the iPhone is so good at viewing them. Movies play fantastically and so does music. Email is a breeze as is keeping up with my schedule.

Pete, I'm not sure if you're aware, but WM devices allow you to view pictures as well. Not to mention you can making moving pictures with them as well...."talkies" even. ;) They also do email, and since WM2005 they even do push email with Exchange.........I'm glad you see the true innovation and 'Wow" factor of the iPhone. ;)

Dave

Russ Smith
06-16-2008, 04:00 AM
...in quotes because it's one of those phrases that begs definition and the definition differs from article to article in the same publication. I remember articles in PC-Mag panning UMPCs because they weren't as powerful as larger laptops, yet the iPhone is a "portable computer"??!

My definition, like many others here, tends to run deeper than the author's (A "computer" in my mind should at least support document editing and add-on keyboards.) but the iPhone does point to some interesting possibilities:

For good or ill (probably both), much of what the iPhone does is while connected. The downside of this is similar to that of phones that have aGPS features. You pay a subscription charge every month to use the feature and you also have to be connected to use it. On the plus side, you can leverage the processing and memory power of the server instead of relying on only the more limited processing and memory capabilities of the device. I recall a Microsoft demo several years ago with voice-to-text using a Pocket PC as a client.

I can see a future where much of our computing is done "remotely", with the local device simply providing the control and display functionality, but many people want local processing power and data now for two reasons: privacy and reliability. Unless it is obvious to even the most non-technical user that their data is secure and unless connectivity improves in coverage, speed, and reliability, that won't change. The success of "client mentality" devices like the iPhone depend on it changing.

mbranscum
06-16-2008, 04:01 AM
Since we're discussing the iPhone and it's capabilities with regard to browsing, take a lot at this interesting thread over at HoFo. Jobs apparently compared the loading time on the Iphone browser to a Nokia N95-4 when loading the National Geographic website.

His comparison was somewhat deceptive according to this article...

http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=1382772

...more hype! :)

Rocco Augusto
06-16-2008, 04:21 AM
Yeah, I don't care much for the article either. I think the article makes one point of some interest, namely that the desktop-class "web browser" may be the killer app in the Smartphone/"mobile computer" market, as 123 was in the desktop market back in the 80s...

--janak

For a while I come close to drooling at the thought of a desktop-like browser on the Windows Mobile Standard platform but over the years there is one thing I learned and that is to make a desktop-like browser work, not just loading and rendering pages, but to get that desktop like experience and not be tedious and annoying to use we need some bigger screens and touch functionality on our Smartphones... but then we would just be using Pocket PC's :D

Right now the iPhone and the Pocket PC are both fantastic platforms for browsing as they come with larger screens and have touch functionality which almost makes up for not having a mouse handy, but on the Standard side we're hosed :(

Even the new Internet Explorer that is included with WM 6.1 doesn't cut it. Sure its a lot nicer to use than the previous versions and the zooming out feature can at times make the experience a little less annoying but it still is incredibly annoying to use. How many times have we wanted to click a link on a page but had to play the maneuver-around-the-links-you-dont-want-but-no-matter-how-hard-you-try-you-can-never-get-the-link-you-actually-want-game?

That game makes me want to throw my handset every time I play it. In order to get desktop-like functionality on the Smartphone someone, hopefully Microsoft, will have to create a new method of navigating the pages for us. Maybe a virtual mouse controlled by the d-pad. Just a thought :)

Pete Paxton
06-16-2008, 04:30 AM
Pete, I'm not sure if you're aware, but WM devices allow you to view pictures as well. Not to mention you can making moving pictures with them as well...."talkies" even. ;) They also do email, and since WM2005 they even do push email with Exchange.........I'm glad you see the true innovation and 'Wow" factor of the iPhone. ;)

Dave

Yep I'm more than fully aware. I've had many pics and movies on my dash. Dave have you ever used pics and movies on an iPhone? If you think it's the same experience as a Windows mobile device then you and I clearly don't view it the same way. Actually, after viewing pics and movies on my many Windows devices, it's a bit sad that it took a device of another company to "wow" me. And WM has been doing this for how long? And this is only as far as they got? Maybe it's not so much that the iPhone wows me as much as MS has disappointed me.

superrrguy
06-16-2008, 07:13 AM
How did this become a iPhone vs WinMo thread?

Let me just say that I love my iPhone and I know exactly which desk drawer it's in although I'm not sure how much crap is on top of it.

Can you get by a weekend with just the iPhone? Sure, but I could do that with my Philips Velo with Window CE 10 years ago. (Remember that thing!?)

After using the iPhone for a few months, I had to go back to WinMo.

The iPhone is/was fun to use. I just felt good about using it and getting stuff done with it and never wanted to throw it at the wall. Somethings take an extra tap and flick but it was cool to do it and enjoyable to use. I did feel like a slave to Apple. $1 a track and then $2+ to make my own ringer? WTF? (Never paid that but just knowing that they try to charge that pisses me off).

I hate WinMo and I'm still happy to be back. The iPhone does it's 17 things and does them with style. With WinMo I can do 156 things in some sort of half assed method even if I have to reset 3 times a day. I also really like having my next appointment, tasks, weather, and stuff on one quick screen like the Today page.

I really like the TYTN II/Tilt with the 7th try at a decent hacked rom. This thing is really a portable computer and if it's not enough I can connect to my home or office desktops with logmein.com.

I don't know why MS feels like they have to copy Apple with WinMo7. Apple customers will never buy the next version of WinMo no matter what device it's on or how cool MS tells us it is. I like buttons and the one handed operation direction they've been going. The Tilt has 2 buttons and a jog wheel on the left side. By mapping the buttons to the left and right softkeys I can do 90% of what I need to with my index finger if I'm holding it in my right hand or my thumb if it's in my left hand. It's awesome.

Don't Panic!
06-16-2008, 11:07 AM
The iPhone is a Pocket PC. PC Mag says so. Just read Tim's article. Now that it's a Pocket PC maybe Apple will licence the WM OS for the iPhone like PALM did for the Treo. We can dream can't we?

maxnix
06-16-2008, 12:57 PM
<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2320072,00.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,281...,2320072,00.asp</a><br /><br /></div><em>&quot;Calling the iPhone just a cell phone would be a mistake.
Yes, beacause it is not even competent at that with a non user replaceable battery. It is just another sad joke perpetuated on the gullible American consumer like the fidelity impaired iPod.

Steve Jobs knows P. T. Barnum was wrong. Several are born every minute...

MattMojo
06-16-2008, 03:45 PM
With the iPhone now sporting 3G, GPS, MS Exchange, and new apps from the app store which will sure fill in all the gaps, this is everything a windows mobile phone has tried to be for years.

The Iphone does not support Exchange --- only a hybrid of ActiveSync --- if it truly supported exchange it would support remote wipe and lock downs as well as full encryption.

Windows mobile has enjoyed an "app" store for years too, btw; as well as GPS.

The Iphone does alot of things, but with out a proper file manager and document editing, it will never be a pocket pc or the like.

And how about the f-u Apple keeps giving it's customers.... first the immediate $200 cut after the initial sales (only giving a $100 credit to existing customers), then selling the new and improved Iphone for just $200!!!! People call MS evil....

Mojo

Janak Parekh
06-16-2008, 04:28 PM
The Iphone does not support Exchange --- only a hybrid of ActiveSync --- if it truly supported exchange it would support remote wipe and lock downs as well as full encryption. He's referring to the new firmware coming out in 3 weeks or so, which does support Exchange ActiveSync, remote wipe, etc. I know this amounts to "finally! they catch up to Microsoft in one feature!", but to Apple's credit, they've released about 3 major updates within one year. I'd love to see Microsoft aggressively update their WM5 and WM6 customers to WM6.1 and generate that kind of positive feedback.

And how about the f-u Apple keeps giving it's customers.... first the immediate $200 cut after the initial sales (only giving a $100 credit to existing customers), then selling the new and improved Iphone for just $200!!!! People call MS evil.... I don't think anyone called Apple "not evil" on this thread. ;) I belong in the "whoa, I spent way too much money on this thing, but I'm not too upset about it" camp. Especially considering I bought a 11oz Qualcomm pdQ for $799 that was rapidly outdated, an iPAQ 3650 for $499(?) that was rapidly outdated (and dusty, loose stylus, loose power switch door, mediocre battery life (and a sealed battery)), etc. :) I consider myself an early-adopter and end up spending lots of money as a result.

--janak

Janak Parekh
06-16-2008, 04:33 PM
How did this become a iPhone vs WinMo thread?

Let me just say that I love my iPhone and I know exactly which desk drawer it's in although I'm not sure how much crap is on top of it. superrrguy, excellent post. Suffice it to say I've managed to keep my iPhone out of the desk drawer, but your reasons for semi-retiring it are reasonable, and don't insult the choices of everyone else. :)

$1 a track and then $2+ to make my own ringer? WTF? (Never paid that but just knowing that they try to charge that pisses me off). I think they removed this limitation, right? Users did have to yell quite a bit, though. (I don't care much for ringers. My phones all stay on vibrate permanently.)

--janak

onlydarksets
06-16-2008, 04:57 PM
And how about the f-u Apple keeps giving it's customers.... first the immediate $200 cut after the initial sales (only giving a $100 credit to existing customers), then selling the new and improved Iphone for just $200!!!! People call MS evil....

Mojo
So, the "f-u" is that they keep lowering the price? I openly welcome any company out there to "f" over us consumers by cutting prices.

onlydarksets
06-16-2008, 05:00 PM
I don't think anyone called Apple "not evil" on this thread. ;) I belong in the "whoa, I spent way too much money on this thing, but I'm not too upset about it" camp. Especially considering I bought a 11oz Qualcomm pdQ for $799 that was rapidly outdated, an iPAQ 3650 for $499(?) that was rapidly outdated (and dusty, loose stylus, loose power switch door, mediocre battery life (and a sealed battery)), etc. :) I consider myself an early-adopter and end up spending lots of money as a result.

--janak

I think I spent $599 for the 3670 in 2001...:eek:

stevew
06-16-2008, 05:03 PM
The Iphone does not support Exchange --- only a hybrid of ActiveSync

As far as I know, the new software and the new iphone ll supports Exchange.


Windows mobile has enjoyed an "app" store for years too, btw; as well as GPS.

You call handango an app store? I won't bash them here but ask some developers how they like them. And yes WM has had GPS but how many devices acually are equiped with it? And I would wager to say the iPhone GPS will be a much better experience.


The Iphone does alot of things, but with out a proper file manager and document editing, it will never be a pocket pc or the like.

It will be very soon that a 3rd party software will allow files to be stored on it's 16 GB of storage along with a suite of office apps. BTW can you store 16 GB of storage on your WM device?


And how about the f-u Apple keeps giving it's customers.... first the immediate $200 cut after the initial sales (only giving a $100 credit to existing customers), then selling the new and improved Iphone for just $200!!!! People call MS evil....

You have to be kidding me.:) I've had at least 3 updates to my iPhone in less than a year. No charge. How many have you had? I'll be getting a major update in a couple weeks at no charge. When a major upgrade is avaulabe for WM will you be able to get it immediatly after it's release? Your lucky if you can get the update without having to purchase a new WM device.

Nice try though :)

I'm not an Apple fan and use to be a die hard Microsoft and WM fan. I owned many PPC's, PPC Phones and Smartphones. I got bored with WM and purchased a iPhone a few months ago. It works for me and it does everything I need very well. I'm dissapointed with MS and WM like many are. The iPhone has come along way in a year. What has MS done?

Janak Parekh
06-16-2008, 05:35 PM
I think I spent $599 for the 3670 in 2001...:eek: I spent $649 on a 3870 when it came out. :p Remember the buggy Bluetooth drivers? ("Not enough memory, you must soft reset!") ;) I will admit, the 3870 had the best audio of any Pocket PC (heck, of any portable audio device) I ever owned. Amazing bass. The HTC Universal came close though.

Okay, I'm REALLY derailing a thread that's already been derailed. Sorry about that. :(

--janak

Pete Paxton
06-16-2008, 05:50 PM
That's the cool thing about threads, you never really know where there going to go. I had no idea there would be over 60 replies and so many opinions. As long as people can respect other's viewpoints - I like it!:)

onlydarksets
06-16-2008, 05:56 PM
I spent $649 on a 3870 when it came out. :p Remember the buggy Bluetooth drivers? ("Not enough memory, you must soft reset!") ;) I will admit, the 3870 had the best audio of any Pocket PC (heck, of any portable audio device) I ever owned. Amazing bass. The HTC Universal came close though.

Okay, I'm REALLY derailing a thread that's already been derailed. Sorry about that. :(

--janak
This should have its own "iPaq revival" thread...

superrrguy
06-16-2008, 06:19 PM
This is such a silly thread! Remote Wipe? (Thank god for it. I've only had to use it once.)

Wipe this. The question is "Is the iPhone a Portable Computer?" In fact the article starts off with "Apple and its iPhone may define what the next generation of truly portable computing is all about." Where the hell has Tim Bajarin been for the last 10 years? The iPhone just took technology that's been around for a while and made it pretty. Real pretty.

As an ex-iPhone user I can say it is truly an enjoyable experience. Even Google's Picasa itegrates completely with the os. It's like looking at photos on the device locally. The pics are full screen and even go landscape when you rotate the thing. The Picasa version for WinMo just plain sucks.

We bought 12 iPhones for the office and out of a 12 users, only one is still using it. The ex-Treo user. Everyone else is back on their Blackberry and I'm the only idiot that's using WinMo.

For heavy day-to-day usage, it just didn't cut it for us. It's not about exchange, push email, remote wipe, gps, mms, im, web browers (do you guys really have a porblem with a version of NY Times without all the banner ads?), usb hosts, vga out, replacable batteries, $600, $400, $200. Actually for most of the office, the biggest complaint was the keyboard and everyone said in the beginning how much better it was than they thought it would be. But during the day trying to type quickly on it was just a pain in the ass. Give me some damn buttons! Other complaints were not being able to get to a contact without endless flicking (which has been "fixed" in 2.0) and battery life.

So will the iPhone define what the next generation of truly portable computing is all about?
Unfortunately it seems so because everyone is trying to copy them for the last year, but it really depends on what your definition of computing is about.

With WinMo I can control every computer in the office and at home and my grandfather's computer when he doesn't know where to click. I can see all our cameras at every location. I can use SlingBox to watch some TV. I have train/subway maps for every city i travel to for business. I have a keyboard and a swapable battery that last me through the flight. Even when the software gets added to the iPhone their stubbornness with non-swappable batteries just baffles me.

One thing I wish MS would start doing is including onboard memory in the GB range.

Jason Dunn
06-16-2008, 06:30 PM
It's getting a tad snippy in here.

That's a sad understatement - and most of the sniping is coming from one person who can't seem to grasp that discussion of the marketplace, and the challenges Windows Mobile faces, are a good thing. We might not all agree, but sharing our opinions in a respectful way is exactly what this forum is for.

Pete Paxton
06-16-2008, 06:54 PM
I guess it sometimes comes down to what you do for a living. As a teacher, I find the iPhone is great for just about all my needs. Plus it's simple, fun, and stable. For me and the way I use it, it's like a portable computer. I have Documents to Go on my Dash so I can use Word, Powerpoint, and Excel. The problem is that I mostly used it as a viewer but I never really created many docs with it. I have an iPhone friendly Box.net account. I just upload my docs, spreadsheets and PDF's and they look great. If I get an office suite for my iPhone (when the app store opens) I may use it more because of the screen size but I'm not sure. I definitely want a Bible and an electronic wallet. I can certainly see how business users would want more functionality. Windows Mobile is great for a certain group of people but I think the iPhone is too.

Jason Dunn
06-16-2008, 06:58 PM
I'm not expressing my opinion on most of this thread, but I thought I'd weigh on this point...

Pete, I'm not sure if you're aware, but WM devices allow you to view pictures as well. Not to mention you can making moving pictures with them as well...."talkies" even.

Yeah, but Dave, that's the crux of the issue: yes, Windows Mobile can do everything an iPhone can do, but when it comes to music/photos/videos, the iPhone does it better and easier for some people (I hate iTunes so much personally!). Maybe not for the people reading this thread, but it's perfectly valid for Pete to express his opinion on the subject.

I tried for years to use my Windows Mobile devices for music/photo/videos and the built-in apps just never cut it for me. The photo viewing app was created by an intern working on the Windows Mobile team over the summer...and it hasn't improved much since then. Why doesn't Microsoft take photo viewing more seriously? I love photos - lots of people do. Why hasn't Windows Media Player Mobile improved much over the years? Where's the support for h.264, or even 640 x 480 WMV coded for hardware acceleration?

Yes, there are some GREAT third party software tools out there for managing photos/music/video on your device, but I firmly believe that the old mantra of "We'll give you the basic tools, third party developers will give you everything else" just doesn't fly any more. People expect more out of the box, especially when you consider the stats that always get thrown around about how few people actually install third party software. That's why you see companies like HTC building so much on top of Windows Mobile, because they know that since Microsoft isn't giving the customer a decent photo viewer, they have do. Are they doing a good job? Yeah, more or less - but they don't control the desktop sync part of the equation...and Windows Mobile Device Center is pretty wonky in a lot of ways.

What always drives me NUTS about this particular topic is that years ago when the Portable Media Center devices were on the market (which had a great media browsing/viewing paradigm) Microsoft people were asking the question "Hey, should we put this UI onto Windows Mobile?" and I said "YES!" as loudly as possible as often as possible. They didn't do it. Could you imagine where we'd be know on Windows Mobile devices if we had the PMC UI and several years of evolution/improvements? It makes me mad just thinking about the wasted opportunity. :mad:

So because of that, I use my Zune for music/photos/video now. My Windows Mobile devices are fantastic at email/Exchange sync/notes/etc, but I just find it too frustrating to use them for media playback (and there's the whole issue of battery life, which is very significant for me).

onlydarksets
06-16-2008, 07:07 PM
I use SplashPhoto for pictures - it's really a great product, although it hasn't been updated in a couple of years. It does have a bug where you have to shut it down after opening an email attachment picture before you can open the next attachment, though.

Jason Dunn
06-16-2008, 07:09 PM
Now I couldn't necessarily say the same for Tim as this is about as useless a column as I've run across in some time. It's not that I care whether or not he thinks the iPhone is a portable computer, but it's mildly irritating that he acts like the idea is something new as if it's only now that the iPhone exists that one might even ask such a question.

Great post Rob - I agree completely. The basis for the article is pretty ridiculous - the iPhone is certainly not the first device to qualify as a "portable computer".

But...

I think the real issue here, and perhaps the point that Tim was trying to make but completely failed to do so, is that the out-of-box iPhone may very well represent one of the best end to end "portable computer" experiences - and I think that's what Pete was trying to get as well. We here in the forums know that if we were to take a VGA Pocket PC and load Opera Mobile onto it, we can get a damn fine browsing experience - but most device don't come with Opera Mobile (though that's certainly changing lately). We know that we can get a great music player by loading Conduits' Pocket Player into a device - but I'm not aware of any device that comes with it. We know we can get a great finger-based UI experience by loading Spb Mobile Shell onto a device - yet no device ships with it (HTC's TouchFlo, especially on the Diamond, goes much deeper and broader than before, which is great). We know that if we load CorePlayer into a Windows Mobile device with a powerful enough CPU, we can get support for a variety of video formats - yet no device ships with CorePlayer.

I firmly believe that Windows Mobile devices have more potential than the iPhone - with a huge variety of hardware and software options, our devices can run circles around the iPhone in terms of what we can do with it.

But not everyone is willing, or even able, to track down all those best-of-breed applications and build up their Windows Mobile device into a highly functional device. Let's face it, with the exception of some recent HTC devices, the vast majority of Windows Mobile devices are pretty anemic software-wise out of the box. So it's no wonder that the average person would look at a Windows Mobile device and an iPhone and think "Wow, the iPhone does more!".

Microsoft, and their partners, need to do much better at making Windows Mobile devices have more "wow" right out of the box. And I think if devices like the HTC Diamond, the Experia, and the OMNIA are any indication, they're on the right path...but a lot more needs to be done.

Jason Dunn
06-16-2008, 07:20 PM
Can you get by a weekend with just the iPhone? Sure, but I could do that with my Philips Velo with Window CE 10 years ago. (Remember that thing!?)

Heh. Do I ever! Check this out:

http://www.jasondunn.com/archive/velo/index2.htm

I *loved* the Velo 1. It was my first Windows CE device, and it's funny to think about where we were with the Velo 1 eleven years ago and look at the Asus Eee PC and other similar devices today. I'm actually hunting for a Velo 1 or Velo 500 for sale, but the few on eBay are either missing something important (like the battery pack or the AC adaptor) or are $200+. I really want to get one for nostalgia's sake. :)

I hate WinMo and I'm still happy to be back. The iPhone does it's 17 things and does them with style. With WinMo I can do 156 things in some sort of half assed method even if I have to reset 3 times a day. I also really like having my next appointment, tasks, weather, and stuff on one quick screen like the Today page.

That's a very effective comparison. :D But here's the thing that I think we have to keep in mind: for many people, most of them "normal" and not the uber-geeky types in this forum, 17 things are enough. And being able to do them without having to reset the device or fight with it is appealing. To a large degree, you just described the whole Mac vs. PC debate as well no some level. :D

I'm convinced though that Windows Mobile can, and should, be able to match those 17 things and do them with just as much style and fun as the iPhone can.

Mikey
06-16-2008, 07:25 PM
When I use the iPhone, I feel like I'm using a portable computer more than any Windows Mobile device I've ever had. Microsoft frustrates me. They have so much money and so much talent and yet over the last 5 years they have been anything but innovative and very incremental. They just seem so complacent. I actually wish they'd get rid of their registry all together and start over. Vista is a joke and their mobile OS just doesn't seem to be going anywhere. I have some hope for the Experia but I'm not holding my breath.

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

I could NOT have said it better myself! I read the new article in this month's issue (my last issue BTW) of PocketPCMag.com titled "30 things you can't do with an iPHONE" They left off several: You can't have that great experience of the resetting the WM device multiple times each day (as an iPHONE doesn't lock up multiples times each day), You're missing out on the whole "ActiveStink" experience...

After 10 years & over 10 different WM devices, the Dell Axim x50v & my Palm Treo 750 will be on eBAY by mid July, & I'll be on a 3G iPHONE!

Janak Parekh
06-16-2008, 07:28 PM
Actually for most of the office, the biggest complaint was the keyboard and everyone said in the beginning how much better it was than they thought it would be. But during the day trying to type quickly on it was just a pain in the ass. Give me some damn buttons! So I've heard this a lot, but interestingly, I find the iPhone keyboard to be much faster for me over the Blackberry or WM thumbboards, when I'm writing standard English phrases. I'm not kidding. :eek: I just type away and let it correct, and I find the lack of physical resistance actually speeds me up, because the amount of travel my fingers have to do is less. The thumbboards, on the other hand, are better when I have to write more esoteric material (proper nouns, technical jargon, etc.).

I fully accept that I'm probably in the minority (and, for the record, I carry a work Blackberry with me daily as well, owned a HTC Universal and a Treo 700w -- so I have extensive experience with thumbboards), but I suspect that most folks have written off the idea of on-screen keyboards without spending more time on them. I'd like more research to be done on that end, a la what HTC is doing with the Touch Diamond and whatnot.

So will the iPhone define what the next generation of truly portable computing is all about?
Unfortunately it seems so because everyone is trying to copy them for the last year, but it really depends on what your definition of computing is about. From a UI perspective, they may well have begun to redefine it. Witness the many touchable UIs coming out now that are less dependent on traditionally-sized buttons and controls. The in-call UI in particular is particularly excellent. Other aspects, I'm not so sure, that's partly Apple marketing-speak. ;)

Even when the software gets added to the iPhone their stubbornness with non-swappable batteries just baffles me. I think this is one of Jobs' personal beliefs, and he's probably dictated it over all the Apple engineers: thinness instead of removability. Witness the Macbook Air's lack of a removable battery. What's funny is that many of the folks "emcee'ing" the Genius Bar (i.e., directing the next customer to an open stool, etc.) in Apple Stores now use MBAs, and I have to imagine they probably have a back room with half of them being charged all the time. :rolleyes:

One thing I wish MS would start doing is including onboard memory in the GB range. Agreed.

--janak

Janak Parekh
06-16-2008, 07:33 PM
I'm convinced though that Windows Mobile can, and should, be able to match those 17 things and do them with just as much style and fun as the iPhone can. That's the thing, right? It's not that hard. If Microsoft shifted some development efforts into this regard (and I really hope they've done so with respect to WM7), they could kick ass. WMP 4 on Pocket PC 2000 was so far ahead of the competition it wasn't even funny. And yet, the latest WMPs are less stable than the original one!

The other danger Microsoft has by dallying is that they're keeping a seat open for Google. I obviously can't speculate about what I do and don't know, but Android's openness could draw away at least some of the WM power-user enthusiast market, and that's really something Microsoft should work hard to avoid.

--janak

Mikey
06-16-2008, 07:40 PM
That chart might actually mean something if Alexa wasn't just gathering information from users who have a toolbar or extension in their browser to send information back to Alexa.

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

I agree w/ all of Rocco's & Pete's points in this post. As far as measuring who reads your site on a daily basis, I for one read it for 5+ years, often several times a day, before I registered & began to post on the forums. Yours is the only site I am registered on but I frequent all the major PDA sites multiple times each day. Great Site, thanks for the different views!

superrrguy
06-16-2008, 07:43 PM
I'm actually hunting for a Velo 1 or Velo 500 for sale, but the few on eBay are either missing something important (like the battery pack or the AC adaptor) or are $200+. I really want to get one for nostalgia's sake.

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

I still have mine! (I have trouble throwing things away). It's a Velo 1. I have the cradle. I'm sure the AC Adaptor is somewhere in one of the boxes in my closet. The tip of the stylus is broken. You can have it. I need to get rid of stuff i never use and you'll get more use out of it than I would. I just wonder what the hell is on the thing after all these years.

onlydarksets
06-16-2008, 08:17 PM
I think this is one of Jobs' personal beliefs, and he's probably dictated it over all the Apple engineers: thinness instead of removability. Witness the Macbook Air's lack of a removable battery. What's funny is that many of the folks "emcee'ing" the Genius Bar (i.e., directing the next customer to an open stool, etc.) in Apple Stores now use MBAs, and I have to imagine they probably have a back room with half of them being charged all the time. :rolleyes:

--janak

With the plethora of battery extenders, this has never bothered me. I still have one of these kicking around, although I sold my iPod over 2 years ago:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=328550

Cybrid
06-16-2008, 10:55 PM
.... And yes WM has had GPS but how many devices acually are equiped with it? And I would wager to say the iPhone GPS will be a much better experience.
That is a matter of choice isn't it. You could get one or choose not to get one.
In addition, with a BT device you could choose to add that on at a later date. I'm not sure iPhone 2.0 BT is updated to support it since it isn't being demoed anywhere.
The iPhone has A-GPS. On their site... under all the Corporate speak...


How it works.
GPS (Global Positioning System) technology uses information from earth-orbiting satellites to find locations. A receiver estimates the distance to GPS satellites based on the time it takes for signals to reach it, then uses that information to identify its location. But the A-GPS (Assisted GPS) solution on iPhone 3G goes a step further, using a unique approach to find the closest satellites and more quickly identify your position. That gives you a faster fix on your location than with regular GPS. source (http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/gps.html) unique approach? Even dumb phones can do that...?

That approach is good but not nearly as useful out in the woods.
Can you hear me now? no?= no fix, no download of relevant maps. Unless the app store comes with downloadable maps....it's only one quarter of a solution.


It will be very soon that a 3rd party software will allow files to be stored on it's 16 GB of storage along with a suite of office apps. BTW can you store 16 GB of storage on your WM device?I've got 8Gb on my touch for $67. 16Gb would be not much more... but with the new pricing, it wouldn't be as competitive a solution.


You have to be kidding me.:) I've had at least 3 updates to my iPhone in less than a year. No charge. How many have you had? I'll be getting a major update in a couple weeks at no charge. When a major upgrade is avaulabe for WM will you be able to get it immediatly after it's release? Your lucky if you can get the update without having to purchase a new WM device.

Nice try though :) Yes, a definite advantage to the inhouse hardware development approach. With MS sending the update out to 3rd party hardware makers (HP, HTC, ASUS, Many more) who then customize to device..,.things are going as well as the should. But you'd think they'd take care of that nasty copy and paste problem sooner that way.


I'm not an Apple fan and use to be a die hard Microsoft and WM fan. I owned many PPC's, PPC Phones and Smartphones. I got bored with WM and purchased a iPhone a few months ago. It works for me and it does everything I need very well. I'm dissapointed with MS and WM like many are. The iPhone has come along way in a year. What has MS done?
MS is and always will be on the slow side. :(
FYI, I did a "merits of PPC vs. iPhone" thread quite some time ago and the customer with the iPhone upgraded to a Razr. To each his own, huh?

Chafic
06-16-2008, 11:32 PM
there are 2 types of computer users: those who use it heavily for business,research, heavy duty stuff, etc and those who use it to just browse, surf, download music and video.. I think the latter group was responsible for the introduction to the PC to homes, and its usage grew way beyond the original intent of the PC. if you consider the international market that statement becomes even more so. From that perspective, the question about iPhone becoming a portable PC is very valid since a lot of users of PCs are not using their PCs to their full potential, rather to do simple stuff. So Pete brings up a very valid point. If you add to that the fact that the "user experience" plays such a heavy role, iPhone certainly has an advantage. many a Windows application for the desktop that performed so well was shelved because in the end, the users were not comfortable using it. the fact that iPhone can do things in a way that is pleasant to the end user means in the end that the user will be using it. As the saying goes "reality perceived is reality achieved". I am an avid Windows Mobile user, like most on such threads, i had my share of dumb phone to palm to Windows to Symbian and back to Windows, etc.. and I have not owned an iPhone. my daughter bought one the other day, and I was impressed whit what it did. it still does not do what I want, but for her it did what she needed much better than my WM phone could have done and in a more pleasant way. it did what her computer does. she has a PC as well and all she does is surf, you tube, mail, picture viewing, music, and I have a PC that is a workhorse. she is happy with her computer and she calls it a computer, i am happy with mine. same goes for the phones.

superrrguy
06-17-2008, 12:23 AM
So I've heard this a lot, but interestingly, I find the iPhone keyboard to be much faster for me over the Blackberry or WM thumbboards, when I'm writing standard English phrases.

I agree. I never had problems with the iPhone onscreen keyboard. I just type fast no matter what keyboard is there. I even like T9 when it works.

onlydarksets
06-17-2008, 01:22 AM
That is a matter of choice isn't it. You could get one or choose not to get one.
In addition, with a BT device you could choose to add that on at a later date. I'm not sure iPhone 2.0 BT is updated to support it since it isn't being demoed anywhere.
The iPhone has A-GPS. On their site... under all the Corporate speak...

unique approach? Even dumb phones can do that...?

That approach is good but not nearly as useful out in the woods.
Can you hear me now? no?= no fix, no download of relevant maps. Unless the app store comes with downloadable maps....it's only one quarter of a solution.

I think you may not understand how A-GPS works. It's not GPS-light, it's GPS+:
GPS vs. aGPS: A Quick Tutorial - WMExperts (http://wmexperts.com/articles/gps_vs_agps_a_quick_tutorial.html)

Now, it's not clear if the iPhone will support standalone mode, which would make a difference. However, that's not a hardware limitation - it's a software decision (I'm not sure that's a distinction that matters, but I'm just pointing it out).

Here's another link (http://mobilitytoday.com/forum/showpost.php?p=79988&postcount=4) that explains some of the confusion:
the A-GPS has always been mistaken as the cellular-based GPS solution, which is not.

AGPS system by itself is a GPS with a full-blown gps chipset, SIRF3 or Globallocate chipset. the "A" is a additional or complimentary function, rather than a enabling function. i.e. w/o the "A", the system can still run.

What the "A" is about is basically a technology whereby the satellite orbital path can be projected over a period of 2-10 days, depending on the technology. GPS with a "A" will be able to have access to such projected path in advance, instead of getting it during each cold fix, which will only be valid for 4 hours anyway

adamz
06-17-2008, 02:10 PM
Regarding Apple's "unique" aGPS approach, you'll be hard pressed to find a Windows Mobile device with built-in GPS that does not also have aGPS. The HTC P3300 (http://www.pocketnow.com/index.php?a=portal_detail&id=886&t=reviews) had it, but didn't work very well. The TyTN II (http://www.pocketnow.com/index.php?a=portal_detail&t=reviews&id=988)'s aGPS works really well. I get a fix in about 7-11 seconds for the Touch Diamond (http://pocketnow.com/index.php?a=portal_detail&t=reviews&id=1077).


BTW can you store 16 GB of storage on your WM device?

Yes, if you have an HTC Advantage, or an SD card (http://www.google.com/products?q=16Gb+SD+card&show=dd) slot. I can put 16Gb into my iPAQ from 8 years ago.

Anyone remember, that nice finger-friendly T9 predictive keyboard that came with the HTC Magician (http://www.pocketnow.com/index.php?a=portal_detail&t=reviews&id=541) 4 and a half years ago? Why did nobody care about a finger-friendly interface back then? I seem to remember everyone wanting hardware keyboards instead.

http://www.pocketnow.com/html/portal/reviews/0000000541/review/imateJ37.jpg

Janak Parekh
06-17-2008, 04:39 PM
Anyone remember, that nice finger-friendly T9 predictive keyboard that came with the HTC Magician (http://www.pocketnow.com/index.php?a=portal_detail&t=reviews&id=541) 4 and a half years ago? Why did nobody care about a finger-friendly interface back then? I seem to remember everyone wanting hardware keyboards instead. It goes back further than that, to Spb's Full-Screen Keyboard (http://www.spbsoftwarehouse.com/products/fsk/?en). The reason these didn't work nearly as well as the new one is because the iPhone uses a capacitance touch screen, which isn't pressure-sensitive, and therefore registers "button" presses with much greater accuracy. I'm guessing, but haven't verified, that newer pressure-sensitive touch screens have been improved, and has served as an impetus for more attention for the screen keyboards on Pocket PCs.

--janak

Jason Dunn
06-17-2008, 04:45 PM
Anyone remember, that nice finger-friendly T9 predictive keyboard that came with the HTC Magician (http://www.pocketnow.com/index.php?a=portal_detail&t=reviews&id=541) 4 and a half years ago? Why did nobody care about a finger-friendly interface back then? I seem to remember everyone wanting hardware keyboards instead.

Oh, hadn't you heard? Touch screen wasn't cool four years ago because Apple hadn't told people that it was cool. People were waiting to hear from Apple you see. :rolleyes: :D

Don't Panic!
06-17-2008, 05:26 PM
Between the responses to this thread and the "Smell the Applsauce" (http://forums.thoughtsmedia.com/f322/jkontherun-smartphone-makers-better-wake-up-smell-applesauce-89582.html) thread I almost got ready to stand in line for the 8GB iphone at that $199 bargain price. But then I remembered my response to this thread (http://forums.thoughtsmedia.com/f359/did-apple-just-kill-windows-mobile-89481.html) and came to my senses. Apple's hype machine is a powerful thing. I haven't even seen the commercials yet!

I'm taking my 200 bucks and buying 48GBs of Flash memory for my X51v. Good to hear from paragon, TMAN and cybrid again. If nothing else the new 3G iPhone is brining some life back to Pocket PC forums.

Rocco Augusto
06-17-2008, 07:12 PM
I agree w/ all of Rocco's & Pete's points in this post. As far as measuring who reads your site on a daily basis, I for one read it for 5+ years, often several times a day, before I registered & began to post on the forums. Yours is the only site I am registered on but I frequent all the major PDA sites multiple times each day. Great Site, thanks for the different views!

Thanks Mikey! Hopefully we can keep you entertained for 5+ more years :D

Cybrid
06-20-2008, 04:34 AM
I think you may not understand how A-GPS works. It's not GPS-light, it's GPS+:
GPS vs. aGPS: A Quick Tutorial - WMExperts (http://wmexperts.com/articles/gps_vs_agps_a_quick_tutorial.html)

Now, it's not clear if the iPhone will support standalone mode, which would make a difference. However, that's not a hardware limitation - it's a software decision (I'm not sure that's a distinction that matters, but I'm just pointing it out).

Yea, I had a vague glimmer but that did clear it up. Thanks!
Nonetheless.
No network= GPS fix only + no Google Map= WTF are we?
For a useful solution, it'd need to be accessible and apps with maps written for it to be available. I'll believe it when I see it. :D

onlydarksets
06-20-2008, 04:47 AM
Yea, I had a vague glimmer but that did clear it up. Thanks!
Nonetheless.
No network= GPS fix only + no Google Map= WTF are we?
For a useful solution, it'd need to be accessible and apps with maps written for it to be available. I'll believe it when I see it. :D
True, but TomTom is offering their mapping software. Presumably it would carry the maps locally, but who really knows?

batuckan1
06-20-2008, 06:25 PM
the only thing the iphone has over my htc hermes/ATT8525 is
weight.

my phone does wireless, 3G <preiphone> GPRS, HSPDA... <didnt read that on the iphone>
and support multiple multimedia, video and audio. Can Iphone say that?

Sure its a big clunky, but its got features years ahead of 3G iphone.

I have a suite of mobile office software, native. Not sure if IPhone can connect to exchange servers, and do push mail. Iphone at best does push..

web browsing, Iphone Im stuck with safari. I can run opera, IE and pocket mozilla, <firefox?>

eh.. let the fair weather friends jump the bandwagon, and drive up the cost of an iphone.
Ill keep mine till touch diamond gets supported by att..

Darius Wey
06-21-2008, 06:36 AM
<didnt read="" that="" on="" the="" iphone="">Not sure if IPhone can connect to exchange servers, and do push mail.

It will once the v2.0 update is released, which should be no later than July 11.

</didnt></preiphone>
<didnt read="" that="" on="" the="" iphone=""> web browsing, Iphone Im stuck with safari. I can run opera, IE and pocket mozilla,<firefox?>

The irony is Safari is one of the most, if not the most, capable mobile browser around. IE still needs a lot of work. Minimo and Firefox Mobile aren't ready for prime time. But, fortunately, Opera 9.5 (not 8.x) is a step in the right direction.
</firefox?></didnt></preiphone>

jimtravis
06-23-2008, 05:57 AM
The iPhone is certainly not the first device to be used as a laptop replacement. Posting I made in 2004 follows - "During the 2004 MacWorld Conference in Boston, I utilized a PDA only, no laptop. I was very pleased with the experience, which included: taking session notes, checking email, some web surfing, using spreadsheets, using database queries, blog postings, and watching some TV shows from the previous night (Sony memory stick based video recorder, unfortunately no longer available)." The device I used to replace the laptop was the Sony Clie UX50 (not to be confused with the UMPC UX50 - this was a Clie PDA). The UX50 had a nice physical qwerty keyboard with both WiFi, and Bluetooth. If WiFI was not available, a Bluetooth connection to SE610 phone was always available. I was able to edit, and create office documents, not just view them.

In 2005, I created about 75% of a multi-page website from the B&N Cafe using a WM Toshiba e830, or Dell Axim X50v with a wireless keyboard. Using a 3rd party html editor, and FTP client, the pages were directly uploaded to web server from the PDA. Again, Bluetooth to the SE610 was a good connection when WIFI was not available. When I travel, I have not taken my laptop since my first successful laptop replacement experiment in 2004. My WM5 smartphone is also an excellent laptop replacement due to its physical qwerty keyboard, and my favorite 3rd parts apps.

Come on - the iPhone is a nice device, but is far from the the first device that has been used to replace a laptop. Let's see, iPhone since 2007, - various Palm OS, and WM devices that efficiently replaced a laptop since 2004.

Concerning mobile Safari, and Opera Mini - I much prefer Opera Mini to mobile Safari. Based on using both mobile Safari (iPod Touch), and Opera Mini 4.x on several WM5/6 devices, Opera Mini is the equal of mobile Safari when displaying multiple column, "full internet" pages, and far superior to mobile Safari when displaying single column webpages such as Craigslist. When you double tap mobile Safari on some single column pages, the zoom does not increase the text size to a comfortable reading level for me. Your choice is to read the small text size which will get old very quickly, or use the pinch zoom to enlarge the text to a comfortable reading level. The problem with using pinch zoom to enlarge the text is the text does not word wrap again which results in horizontal scrolling being required to read each line. Horizontally scrolling to read each line gets old very quickly also. Opera Mini will display single column pages like Craigslist similar to mobile Safari initially; however, and this is a big however, Opera Mini has a mobile view option. When you select mobile view option, the text on single column pages like Craigslist word wraps again, and you can now read single column pages at your preferred text size without horizontal scrolling. Unless you enjoy reading smail text, or have 20/20 or better eyesight, chances are you will be horizontally scrolling when reading single column pages with mobile Safari while users of other mobile browsers, ranging from NetHopper on the Apple Newton to the Amazon Kindle (NetFront) will enjoy those same single column pages like Craigslist at their preferred text size without any horizontal scrolling.

Janak Parekh
06-23-2008, 03:31 PM
When you double tap mobile Safari on some single column pages, the zoom does not increase the text size to a comfortable reading level for me. Your choice is to read the small text size which will get old very quickly, or use the pinch zoom to enlarge the text to a comfortable reading level. This is an excellent point. It is mitigated somewhat by rotating the device into landscape form, but not entirely. Part of the problem is the website; it is fixed-width, and Mobile Safari does not rewrite/reinterpret the webpage. Opera's (and IEM's) ability to is useful in this case. Overall, though, I find Mini to be much clumsier in navigation, speed, etc. Of course, YMMV. :)

--janak

jimtravis
06-23-2008, 08:09 PM
This is an excellent point. It is mitigated somewhat by rotating the device into landscape form, but not entirely. Part of the problem is the website; it is fixed-width, and Mobile Safari does not rewrite/reinterpret the webpage. Opera's (and IEM's) ability to is useful in this case. Overall, though, I find Mini to be much clumsier in navigation, speed, etc. Of course, YMMV. :)

--janak

I have found mobile Safari to be totally unreadable in portrait mode when displaying single column pages, and barely readable in landscape mode as I indicated in my original post. This can be corrected by adding a META viewport tag with a width of 320 to the HEAD section of the webpage. Although I have added this metatag to my personal pages so iPhone/touch users can read the pages at a comfortable text size without horizontal scrolling, most webmasters have not, and probably will not. I maintain my webpages in single column mode so just about any mobile device can display the pages properly. I find it a bit ironic that many sites dedicated to mobile gadgets use the latest, and greatest html formatting which most mobile devices can not display.:confused:

As you indicated, YMMV. I have found Opera Mini to be smooth, and fast. Opera Mini on the 4" VGA HP210 looks great, and is an excellent full web experience.

In 2006, NetFront 3.3 on a WM VGA device was able to correctly display the desktop version of the secure banking site for my checking account including viewing copies of processed checks.

I enjoy your video reviews, thanks for sharing.