Biting the Handango that Feeds It: Are You Getting Your Money's Worth?

[Raphael Salgado]

It's like going to the dentist. You know that it does some good to visit, but it's a painful experience every time. As both a developer and a customer, I constantly try to justify the reasons to be there. Handango started off as a modest portal for mobile games and applications. Now, I just don't know what to make of it.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/salgado-20060726-handango.jpg" /><br /><br />The "developer" side of me hopes that I get the proper exposure my programs need, but at what cost? By slicing off as much as 40% of the listed price, what I am actually left with (and taxed on) is hardly an appreciated profit, and by overpricing my products, it's no wonder that piracy remains rampant. The "customer" side of me just has a hard time sifting through the various pages of repetitive junk (from ringtones, wallpaper, eBooks, and fake or pirated programs) and re-releases of the same version of software just to stay on the front page, then trying to charge me for things like "Download Protection." And, in my experience, response times and support by Handango staff have been close to non-existant, especially in the case of their online contests - does anyone ever win?<br /><br />I've heard of incidents where customers have resorted to contacting the developers directly to "PayPal" them a more "agreeable" price for full versions of their software, and have seen developers price their software according to the markup that the portals impose, and/or offer a "free" version with a subtle hint to visit their own site for the "real" version. As a developer or a customer (or both), what are your thoughts on Handango and its cost of dealing with them?

[pocketdoc]

I will NOT use Handango again. I agree with all of the above compalints.

Most baffling is their 'download protection'. What the @#%$ is that? I thought when I purchased one program and paid $5 for protection that it covered all of my previous and future downloads. It does not appear so. Ridiculous.

I also do not like the fact that I have to dig out my old credit card numbers to redownload previously purchased sofware.

I am now back to PocketGear.

[klanum]

AMEN BROTHERS AND SISTERS...RIGHT ON!!!!!

I too can't fathom that download protection stuff when you can download a trial of updated software from theirs or some other sites, input the reg code and get going again. Granted there are some items that you can't do that but very few in my experience and many times can work with the developers directly to work something out.

Being a part of the vast right wing conspiracy, I'm all for making a buck and the capitalist system overall but they might as well hold a gun to your head when you click on the "confirm purchase" button. The only purchase I have left with them is to close out my points account and that will like be it.

Probably will print out my account page with regististration numbers just in case they start to charge for that access as well. Most of it is in ewallet but you just never know!

[FallN]

I have to agee with that crazy "download protection" scam. Just a complete ripoff. And navigating Handango is an exercise in frustration.

I've been going to Pocket Gear (easier for me to navigate) or directly to the software maker's website to purchase directly from them. Does Pocket Gear do the same shady things as Handango?

[alese]

I must say I had zero problems with my purchases on Handango, and I never used download protection.
But 40% markup, for what?
The only question is, does Pocket Gear also charge that much to a developer?
I guess most of my software purchases in the future will be done directly from developers.

[Jason Lee]

I have had nothing but good experiances with Handango. and nothing but bad with pocket gear...

To this day i still get 4 copies of their monthly spam mail. I have tried to unsubscribe time and time again to no avail. I refuse to use pocket gear.

So what am i to do? :)

[Mark Kenepp]

Trying to purchase and download direct from the developer is the first stop for me. Sometimes, the developers site directs you to Handango or another online software distributor which upsets me, a little.

Another thing to me is that when I purchase something online, I am giving out my personal details. I feel if I purchase direct from the developer, my details are going somewhere where I feel comfortable. If I didn't want them to have my personal details, I wouldn't buy their product. When purchasing through Handago (and other distributors), I feel my personal details are going more places than they need to go.

I want to eliminate the middleman when ever possible (in all my purchases).

I don't want to imply that I think what Handango, or any other online middleman, is doing is wrong. I think that they are within their rights to charge for any service they offer.

As a consumer, I can accept that.

If I was a developer, I might not be able to accept that.

What I want to know, do developers have a choice to distribute their own software or is the process of handling your own software distribution just not worth it?

Maybe to some developers, the price they pay to Handango is worth it.

[bvkeen]

Although I have used Handango extensively for the past few years (over 80 purchases, mostly Pocket PC but some Palm), and have never had a problem with them (except for the silly having to re-enter a credit card number after downloading the fourth upgrade to a product I bought there), I would much prefer to use PayPal to pay the developer directly. Many, many years I ago I developed shareware and I know how hard it can be to make money at it, and that having 40% lopped off the top would not make me happy. Until about a year ago, I thought that Alex Kac made 24.95 off of each PI sale on Handango, and to find out that he only gets 60% or so of that just doesn't seem right to me. He works very hard to give users great products and I think he deserves to be appropriately compensated for it (not to mention all the free insights he offers in forums on this and other sites). I mention Alex because everybody knows he deserves to be paid well for great products and great service, but he is certainly not alone. Amit and CTitanic are two other greats that immediately pop to mind. Of course these folks can speak in their defense and can probably list many upsides to their relationships with Handango. I'm just saying I would prefer to pay them direct.

[capo]

Agreed - download protection doesn't seem like something I'm likely to buy any time soon.
But having said that, I've had nothing but good luck with Handango support. Among other incidents, they went to bat for me with Fonix. I bought a Fonix voice control app (trying to save a buck and not buy MS Voice Command) but it didn't have all the advertised functionality. After repeated unsuccessful attempts to contact Fonix failed, I went to Handango. They were also unsuccessful in contacting Fonix and gave me my money back.

[kaiden.1]

I usually buy all my stuff from handango for the rewards program, however I still buy from pocket gear too. Both sites are OK.... nothing really drives me to them other than I do not know where else to go? IF there was s place that developers could post I would definately check it out.

I have always wondered how much money the actual writers are making, they are the ones that I want to support so that they can keep writing software, I really could care less for handango.....

Perhaps the idea is to write a starter version of software that costs a buck or so from handango, then when the software is purchased, have a link that takes you to the real website where you can buy the real thing? That is definately clever. But if handango is HOGGING all the money, they really don't need to be in the picture.

Maybe PPC thoughts could have a place where developers could post for a small fee, then we could frequent this site more and learn what is new out there.

Another way is to get everyones e-mail and always inform them of the updates and upgrades via- their personal e-mail and do not post the upgrade on handango. Then they will always go to your site for the update and purchase there instead of handango. I am always buying the updates as they come out, usually I don't know that the software had even been upgraded cause no one sends out and e-mail to inform me of it. I think that the best company for this has been Iambic. They always send me e-mails of their updates and I have bought every time. I bought iambic for my palm from handango the very first time, ever since then all the updates I have bought off their own personal web site.

No one should ever be stuck in a handango rut. There should be ways to maximize your marketing somewhere........

Thanks for letting me post!

-kirk

[SHC]

Agreed to all the above. Why, when I've logged in to my account do I have to enter my credit card to download an upgrade? Why should I pay "download protection?" Protection from what?
I try to buy direct from the developer if I can, I can usually get upgrades that way - SBSH and WebIs for example. I used to use Palmgear some years ago and my account and purchases are still there and accessible without problem.

[Marcel_Proust]

I'd like to know how much PocketGear charges. %40 per cent seems outrageous for the service they provide, which is valuable to have it all in one easily accessible place, but not that much. I would rather go to PocketGear if they charge less.
They are obviously price gouging but I don't fault them, they are charging what the market will bear, and laughing all the way to the bank, which is what their job is. And their services have some problems, and not stellar service, but not bad, but overall they are decent except for the price. If developers could band together to form a cooperative for transactions, that would be best. I'm sure they could do it for less cost than 40%. How much does a paypal transaction cost developers? Probably in single digits percentage. There is the added cost of the web site.
Also, the 40 % is hurting all of us by driving prices up. Except of course whoever owns or has shares of Handango.
I'll try looking for alternate ways of buying from now on.

[CUShane]

As a developer who sells software on Handango, I feel like I do have some legitimate comments here. First, Handango and PocketGear provide nothing approaching enough value to justify a 40% commission. Both sites have clauses in their distribution agreements prohibiting a developer from offering a better price anywhere else (although developers routinely do). Checks are only sent when the accumulated balance reaches $100, encouraging developers to set higher prices to see money on something approaching a regular basis. Personally, I have only received 1 check per year for the last two years as a result of this. The commission rates of 40% also force developers to raise the price of their products to have any hope of seeing a real amount of money. The price of my applications has gone up $1 over the last year simply to cover the increases in the Handango commissions.

PocketGear/Motricity is no better and charges the same commission percentage (40%) as Handango. I stopped listing my applications on PocketGear because they simply did not drive enough sales in 1 year to ever cut a check. I don't really believe that Handango or PocketGear are worth anything near what they charge, but I've yet to find an acceptable alternative, so I'm left with choosing the lesser of two evils.

[PPCRules]

There have been plenty of developers disgruntled (mild term) with PocketGear over the years as discussed on this and other forums. As a customer, I much prefer PocketGear's site design at this point in time, and redownloading there is a snap.

From what I understood from previous heated discussions, Pocketgear terms are very similar to Handango's. So before complaining too much about this, realize that if it were easy, anyone could open a storefront with "more fair" terms and not allow H and PG any business. Since this doesn't happen, I suspect in order to offer what these sites offer, for developers and customers, it is necessary to take the cut they do and use the 'scam' tactics they might employ.

[damager]

"Personally, I have only received 1 check per year for the last two years as a result of this. The commission rates of 40% also force developers to raise the price of their products to have any hope of seeing a real amount of money."

Wait - you are selling an app that generates $100 a year, and are complaining about paying $40 of that to Handango? They are running a site that creates a market for your product, and requires no hosting / maintenance from you - this seems like a good way to sell a niche product like you are selling. Your sales would likely be a fraction of this AND you'd have to support your own site otherwise.

[Mark Kenepp]

From what I understood from previous heated discussions, Pocketgear terms are very similar to Handango's. So before complaining too much about this, realize that if it were easy, anyone could open a storefront with "more fair" terms and not allow H and PG any business. Since this doesn't happen, I suspect in order to offer what these sites offer, for developers and customers, it is necessary to take the cut they do and use the 'scam' tactics they might employ.

Good point,

What does it take to sell and distribute software over the web and what is it worth to have someone else do it for you?

It would be great to see an actual cost breakdown of where all the money goes for a online software purchase. It would likely placate some and outrage others.

[CUShane]

"Personally, I have only received 1 check per year for the last two years as a result of this. The commission rates of 40% also force developers to raise the price of their products to have any hope of seeing a real amount of money."

Wait - you are selling an app that generates $100 a year, and are complaining about paying $40 of that to Handango? They are running a site that creates a market for your product, and requires no hosting / maintenance from you - this seems like a good way to sell a niche product like you are selling. Your sales would likely be a fraction of this AND you'd have to support your own site otherwise.

This is just about the only reason I even bother. I get to go out to dinner once or twice per year from the revenue that this generates. My big complaint is that the amount required to generate a check has doubled in the last 2 years and the commission has gone from 25% to 40% in the same time. The reality is that I still make money out of the deal which is the only reason I stay with Handango. The only real value they provide is the traffic (though they don't provide any statistics as to how many of the sales came from my site so I am somewhat dubious as to how much traffic they actually generate by themselves), and the credit card processing. The reality is that I do have to support my own site (sans the credit card processing) regardless of whether Handango exists or not.

Don't get me wrong here though. The relationship is profitable for me which is the only reason I continue doing it, but they don't do nearly enough to justify the percentage that they take. When I initially started at Handango, the commission was 25% and I considered that fair for the service they provide. The have raised the commission 15% over the last 2 years, however the lack of real competition leaves a small developer, like myself, with nowhere else to go. I have seriously considered implementing PayPal processing on my own site because of Handango's commission hikes. The time and effort involved in what Handango does is nowhere close to 40% of the cost of the software, but because there are no other portals with better terms, a developer has the choice of developing their own system (not realistic for someone who's full time job is not mobile software development like myself) or paying the Handango tax.

[tnelson2000]

As a developer, I offer products on both Handango and Pocketgear. The 40% is just the start as in order to drive real business one must also advertise on their sites. Only the highest volume software can support even the a modest advertising campaign at these sites.

I believe that Microsoft helped promote Handango when they first released Windows CE devices years ago. This helped establish them as pretty much a monopoly. If you don't sell on Handango, you probably won't be found. Heck, even PPC Thoughts has no incentive to promote a product if not on Handango as their Members Discount site is linked directly to Handango's Commerce Engine.

Furthermore, Handango and Pocketgear will not provide the developers with the e-mails of those that download trial versions. I would like to provide incentives and promotions to all those that download a trial, but I never know who they are. I am sure they are afraid that we will try to sell directly. However, the commerce engine at my site is Handango's! Yet, Handango only takes 30% (not the full 40%) if a customer orders from my site so they treat me as a competitor even though all my orders go through Handango!! The bottom line is the consumer loses because they pay a premium.

There are only two solutions to this problem:
a) Competitive sites to Handango and PocketGear are created
b) The Developers organize so we might be able to pressure Handango and PocketGear.

Until some true competition is introduced, the customer will have to pay extra!

[hacqua]

The case is worst if you are a developer living outside US, because you have yet to pay taxes over your little 60% just because your software is hosted in an US server! And there is no option for hosting your program in your own server!

In addition to that, depending on where you live, your bank may charge over $100 to process the $100 check!!! This happened to me, so I chose to receive my credits in Paypal to spent them in little e-Bay purchases. Pathetic!

All in all, I think that it's simply impossible for most of us to make a decent profit from this business. I'm on this just because I love to develop PPC apps, and this is a hobby for my spare time. For this reason, however, sometimes I simply cannot put enough time in supporting customers, and this really pisses me off.

If we could get better profit from our work, I believe there would be many more professional and fantastic apps (and happier developers) out there.

[tnelson2000]

"Wait - you are selling an app that generates $100 a year, and are complaining about paying $40 of that to Handango? They are running a site that creates a market for your product, and requires no hosting / maintenance from you - this seems like a good way to sell a niche product like you are selling. Your sales would likely be a fraction of this AND you'd have to support your own site otherwise."

Well, I sell way more than $100.00 a year, but Handango does little in "creating a market for my product." The dirty little secret is that Handango and Pocketgear only allow a developer to list our products in a couple of categories and use only a few key words in their search engines. So it is very hard for Handango customers to find our products. . . unless we advertise on their sites.

So as Hillary Clinton once said, "I can't be responsible for all those small undercapitalized business in the United States!"

Handango is there to sell advertising. By crippling our ability to be found in their search engines, we are forced to pay the big bucks to advertise. If a product does not generate over $20,000.00 a year it is not cost effective to advertise on Handago. This is why you only see the same products being advertised over and over again on those sites. Handango is not about maximizing unit sales, they are all about maximizing advertising $$$$. They are very Google'ish!

[Paragon]

....hmmm....questionable post to have right above one promoting a 15% discount at Pocket Gear. I'm sure it was unintentional. :)

In my business, and in fact in most businesses supplying a product to retailers, we would love to get 60% of the "profit." I don't, by any means, defend all of Handango's policies, but to take a 40% cut for promoting and delivering a product seems rather fair.

I'm always a bit leery of retailers who may overprice my product to the point that it effects sales, but one thing I have learned is that the more money a customer makes selling my product the happier they are doing business with me and the more product they buy from me.

I'd be curious to know....as a developer, back when they were taking a 25% cut, how much were you willingly giving back to support their awards program or all the free giveaways they do?

I don't mean to come across as argumentative, it just seems to me that it's not that bad of a deal when you consider all that Handango, and Pocket Gear do.

I've often wondered why more developers who are not happy with the arrangements don't get together and start some sort of co-op site?!

Dave

[CUShane]

... I'd be curious to know....as a developer, back when they were taking a 25% cut, how much were you willingly giving back to support their awards program or all the free giveaways they do?

I don't mean to come across as argumentative, it just seems to me that it's not that bad of a deal when you consider all that Handango, and Pocket Gear do.


They actually did not have any of the "awards" programs when they were charging 25%. Note that the "awards" program and giveaways come directly out of the developers cut, not out of Handango's. So when Handango gives a member reward, Handango takes 40% of the non-discounted price and the developer eats 100% of the discount despite having no say at all in the discount amount. When Handango gives a download for free as part of a promotion, Handango doesn't charge a commission.

[Paragon]

Handango takes 40% of the non-discounted price and the developer eats 100% of the discount despite having no say at all in the discount amount.

That's not much of a two way relationship is it?! I'll bet it is the relationship, or lack of one that bugs developers more than anything? Personally I've always thought that the best deal, or business relationship is one where both sides are equally happy with the arrangement. Listening to developers it seems that Handango, and Pocket Gear don't quite grasp that....If everything else came out a bit more equal perhaps you guys wouldn't mind the 40% cut so much, right?

Dave

[yildi]

I also do worry for the money that HandanGo takes from the developpers given the service they provide (the site is useful but it is quite messy if you do not exactly know what you are looking for). I have heard about another project called Modaco and it promises 80% for the developper. Do you know it?
http://fairdeal.modaco.com/homeSoftware.asp

If yes, what is your opinion about it? It seems the provide an alternative to more greedy solutions like H&amp;G and PG.

[tnelson2000]

(the site is useful but it is quite messy if you do not exactly know what you are looking for). I have heard about another project called Modaco and it promises 80% for the developper. Do you know it?
http://fairdeal.modaco.com/homeSoftware.asp


Exactly! By design, Handango needs to make it hard to find products. In this way they can force the top tier products to buy advertising. Handango promotes nothing on thier own.

And the problem with modaco is that no one knows about them. the M$/Handango relationship has put them in a monopolistic position.

[Phillip Dyson]

I'm not a mobile developer nor do I play one on TV


This topic always resurfaces every so often and the same idea always comes to mind. I always post it and never get any replies. So here goes again.

What about developers forminng some kind of membership union and form a competing distribution channel. Membership dues can pay for the upkeep, management and house keeping. Maybe even a little advertising. Then the more members that come on, the more finances for expansion and advertising.

Let it compete side by side with Handango and PocketGear. Then developers have an alternative if they decide to withdraw from the other two. Perhaps this could become a negotiating point for some of the more popular developers. If a developer decides to go solely with this channel, then they can potentially lower prices because they're not paying a percentage. Or atleast its a union agreed upon amount.

I can see the caption now... "For Developers by Developers."
Its basically the notion of power in numbers.

Developers can then decide their own fate and maybe even undercut the prices due to lack of overhead.

Think what would happen if a WebIS, or an SBSH gave their support to this 'union' channel.

just a thought.

[Ummagumma]

:devilboy:

[Ummagumma]

As a developer, I offer products on both Handango and Pocketgear. The 40% is just the start as in order to drive real business one must also advertise on their sites. Only the highest volume software can support even the a modest advertising campaign at these sites.

I believe that Microsoft helped promote Handango when they first released Windows CE devices years ago. This helped establish them as pretty much a monopoly. If you don't sell on Handango, you probably won't be found. Heck, even PPC Thoughts has no incentive to promote a product if not on Handango as their Members Discount site is linked directly to Handango's Commerce Engine.

Furthermore, Handango and Pocketgear will not provide the developers with the e-mails of those that download trial versions. I would like to provide incentives and promotions to all those that download a trial, but I never know who they are. I am sure they are afraid that we will try to sell directly. However, the commerce engine at my site is Handango's! Yet, Handango only takes 30% (not the full 40%) if a customer orders from my site so they treat me as a competitor even though all my orders go through Handango!! The bottom line is the consumer loses because they pay a premium.

There are only two solutions to this problem:
a) Competitive sites to Handango and PocketGear are created
b) The Developers organize so we might be able to pressure Handango and PocketGear.

Until some true competition is introduced, the customer will have to pay extra!

As a customer and software buyer, I can assure you that (1) I never, ever used Handango or Pocket Gear to find software that suits my needs - I always use usenet (google groups) or sites like this one, because I'm interested in userss opinions, not dumb advertisement. (2) I never buy from Handango if I can buy directly from developer - simply because I don't need a 3rd party and it's easier to get billing problems solved, (3) I never, ever, ever give my real email when downloading trial software.

I think generating enough exposure on Usenet will do much more for you, then Handango ever could - this is how most of the people I know find out about software. I did buy from them a couple of times, if developer's site directed me there. That was before Download Protection scham - that's pure extortion. I would not buy from Handango.

[WyattEarp]

I to have seen this issue brought up time and time again. I have used both Handango and PocketGear and find that neither have actually created any market. It is the software developers who created the programs people asked for and filled a need. So if software developers who can afford to don't take control of their own product then they can't really complain. Although I doubt any of the big name ones will. Others should try another way if possible since without software both sites are nothing. And we as consumers just should not buy from them if we know they are over charging and using unfair sales tactics. They need us more than we need them as with all goods. You can always find it or something better elsewhere.

[Zonner03]

Is it just me...or is it that everyone that has replied to the original post a bunch of cry babies?

First, you can shop where like. No body asked you to shop there. No body made you not unclick the download protection checkbox.

Second, if a developer chooses to sign up with Handango and does not read what he/she is getting into, too freaking bad. They are up front about the charges.

Lastly, correct me if I am wrong, but the complaints boils down to this; you are too lazy to unclick a checkbox, to lazy to get your credit card, to lazy to look for software somewhere else, and too lazy to write your own program in the first place.

I think you all are pissed off you did not think of the Handango scam yourselves.

Come on!!!

With that said, in my opinion the cost of the programs are rather small to begin with. I do write programs for different applications in a few different languages. It take alot of time to dream up, write, debug and rewrite a program.

I hope you all realize that someone who writes programs for a pocketpc is not going to get rich in the first place and they know that. They do it for the satisfaction of programming.

[cteel2004]

I hope you all realize that someone who writes programs for a pocketpc is not going to get rich in the first place and they know that. They do it for the satisfaction of programming.

I hate to tell you this man. But the bulk of people out there who start a business (whether its software development or something else) want to make money more than anything.

I do agree with your points though that we do still have a choice (generally speaking) in what we do and what we sign up for. That being said, we also have a choice to demand better than what we are given. That's the business world in a nutshell. A demand for something better.

[WyattEarp]

Zonner, everyone is not lazy and everyone is not able to write programs. If that was the case then no one would make one red cent. People do have choices but when you are starting out and you forced to sell your product on a site that is not helping promote your product then it leaves a bad taste in the mouth. It's real no different from the music industry which is why they're in trouble now but that's a story for another time. That said I stopped buying from either a long time ago unless it can't be avoided. And if companies like Handmark and PocketGear are treating software developers unfairly then it is we the consumers who truely get cheated and lose out. Everyones, entitles to rant.

[Zonner03]

Wyatt, I know everyone is not lazy, maybe just the ones that were the complainers.

"People do have choices but when you are starting out and you forced to sell your product on a site that is not helping promote your product then it leaves a bad taste in the mouth." - WyattEarp

Dude, that is my point. I am saying developers do have a choice of using a company like Handango, granted they may not get the exposure if they start their own website or some like that. The thing is there are alot of other avenues to sell your software than being "forced" to by a Handango type company.

As for the companies treating developers unfairly; the only way that can happen is if policy changes at the company that adversly affects the relationship between them. If that is the case and developers are being ripped off AFTER signing with them, I feel for them and you have a point.
If that is not the case then the developer knowing went into contract with them having the policies of the company know beforehand.

[Mitchybums]

As a developer with a listing of software on both Handango and PocketGear, I am not too happy about the 40% they charge. Unfortunately for developers there is no choice. Just look at the frontpage of this very site for example. Take a guess where the "Most populair software" box on the right comes from?

I really wish I could drop Handango, but I have no choice. Too many sites link to them, and for PocketGear/Motrocity, they have too many mirror sites in various languages to drop them (which makes their 40% cut kinda worth it though) However, when I look at my monthly sales, over 70% comes from Handango.

There are lots of other services availiable, Mobihand, Share-It and I believe even Clickgamer or someother software company has started to offer sales services for small developers, however, with the current position Handango is in, they have the biggest market share for mobile device software.

In the same way Microsoft has the biggest market share in operating systems, Handango has the biggest market share in software sales. Because of this, as a developer you really do not have a choice if you want to make a living.

[haesslich]

As a user, I tend to prefer PocketGear, since (unlike Handango), I know I can both get updates on when a product's been updated (I check the account page) as well as the serial code for the product if I need to do a reinstall on the road and don't want to sort through 40 emails to get every product code (assuming the restore program failed to do its job).

On the other hand, I'm also more than willing to buy from the programmer directly if there's an option, unless PocketGear or someone is chopping 20% off the price of the product. Personally, I don't really have a preference beyond pricing, although Handango's 'automatic' Download Protection does piss me off enough that I don't really buy from there anymore.

[jamesbe2759]

It's like going to the dentist. You know that it does some good to visit, but it's a painful experience every time. As both a developer and a customer, I constantly try to justify the reasons to be there. Handango started off as a modest portal for mobile games and applications. Now, I just don't know what to make of it.

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/salgado-20060726-handango.jpg

The "developer" side of me hopes that I get the proper exposure my programs need, but at what cost? By slicing off as much as 40% of the listed price, what I am actually left with (and taxed on) is hardly an appreciated profit, and by overpricing my products, it's no wonder that piracy remains rampant. The "customer" side of me just has a hard time sifting through the various pages of repetitive junk (from ringtones, wallpaper, eBooks, and fake or pirated programs) and re-releases of the same version of software just to stay on the front page, then trying to charge me for things like "Download Protection." And, in my experience, response times and support by Handango staff have been close to non-existant, especially in the case of their online contests - does anyone ever win?

I've heard of incidents where customers have resorted to contacting the developers directly to "PayPal" them a more "agreeable" price for full versions of their software, and have seen developers price their software according to the markup that the portals impose, and/or offer a "free" version with a subtle hint to visit their own site for the "real" version. As a developer or a customer (or both), what are your thoughts on Handango and its cost of dealing with them?

Finally someone has the balls to expose the crappy way Handango conducts business. I've bought alot of software from them when they were the only game in town. That's not true anymore but the competition isn't any better. There should be a web site run for (and by) the software developers only for selling their products at a FAIR price.

[juni]

Use the developer's pages if at all possible, the prices usually are lower since they don't have to make up for the 40% scam :).

[bnycastro]

for me I have no choice but to buy from Handango or PocketGear as my country is not recognized by PayPal.

[Phillip Dyson]

People do have choices but when you are starting out and you forced to sell your product on a site that is not helping promote your product then it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

The only reason why I might concede to newbie developers being forced is because the veteran developers only complain. In all the times this subject has come up, I've never seen one developer even suggest the possibility that something could be done. If they need something to get the creative juices going, see my previous post on page 3. Maybe it wouldn't work, but it could something for developers to talk about and decide if its feasible.

There should be a web site run for (and by) the software developers only for selling their products at a FAIR price.

Exactly. I'm always hearing about developers complaining, but never any effort to find and alternative.


Use the developer's pages if at all possible, the prices usually are lower since they don't have to make up for the 40% scam :).

I think thats one option. However, consumers like convenience, and Handango/PocketGear provide that. See my previous post on page 3, a competitive channel would go a long way to providing a consumer alternative that has the possibility of affecting Handango and PocketGear.

[clickgamer]

You might want to check out Clickgamer (http://www.clickgamer.com) and Clickapps (http://www.clickapps.com) - both great alternatives for games and applications.

We offer:

* FREE "download protection" for life! Simply register with ClickPayGo (www.clickgamer.com/clickpaygo) (if you have bought from us before use the same email and past purchases will be hooked up)
* TONS of pre-checked quality games and software (no jumble sale!)
* FREE GAMES for Pocket PC - check the FREE stuff area of ClickPayGo (http://www.clickgames.com/clickpaygo)
* BUY using ClickPayGo Wallet, PayPal, MoneyBookers to buy (plus plastic of course)
* SUPERB customer support - every email is answered within 24 hours (often within the hour)

... we are also running a special promo - paste this coupon code into the registration screens (www.clickgamer.com/clickpaygo) and get 3 USD free credit to spend on anything .... code: e410994c4e

[Trevor]

I try not to use Handango as I cannot believe they want to charge me to "protect" my downloads for software I have purchased.
I do on the other hand like using PocketGear, there web site is easy to navigate and downloading previous purchases are no problems. :D

[dommasters]

You might want to check out Clickgamer (http://www.clickgamer.com) and Clickapps (http://www.clickapps.com) - both great alternatives for games and applications.

We offer:

* FREE "download protection" for life! Simply register with ClickPayGo (www.clickgamer.com/clickpaygo) (if you have bought from us before use the same email and past purchases will be hooked up)
* TONS of pre-checked quality games and software (no jumble sale!)
* FREE GAMES for Pocket PC - check the FREE stuff area of ClickPayGo (http://www.clickgames.com/clickpaygo)
* BUY using ClickPayGo Wallet, PayPal, MoneyBookers to buy (plus plastic of course)
* SUPERB customer support - every email is answered within 24 hours (often within the hour)

... we are also running a special promo - paste this coupon code into the registration screens (www.clickgamer.com/clickpaygo) and get 3 USD free credit to spend on anything .... code: e410994c4e
ClickGamer are a joy to work with !

[JVL]

I bought software from Handango one time.
When I had problems with it they would not respond to me.
I called my credit card company and they got my money back.
Never again.

[Pixelnose]

Use the developer's pages if at all possible, the prices usually are lower since they don't have to make up for the 40% scam :).

The real scam isn't even the 40%, which is steep, but apparently the going rate. It's just that they don't earn it. Customers can't download what they purchase, then there's the protection scam, and developers, ever notice that sometimes Handango just decides not to pay on the 15th? What if your livlihood is from that site? No news posting about it, nothing, just no money. From what I understand this is still better than Pocketgear, but still, accounting knows the end of the month is coming. It's a fixed point in time, it doesn't move around and surprise you.

The protection scam is really really bad for the little guy type developers. Like say for instance a skin pack, which isn't supposed to cost that much. Tack on another 5 bucks and it adds up. We were really left scrambling for a solution for our Handango customers when that happened.

And who do most customers blame? Us. "You said upgrades were free!" I can't tell you how many times I got emails about that. I'd posted in my blog about it, which was linked from our site, but most customers simply don't see it or don't read it, so they had no idea, and why should they? It's all supposed to be seamless. But that's just it, it's not so seamless anymore.

FWIW, yeah, we did raise our prices a little, and after some research on what other skinners were charging I didn't feel so bad, but we still do take a loss at Handango, and it's a big loss.

[Pixelnose]

You might want to check out Clickgamer (http://www.clickgamer.com) and Clickapps (http://www.clickapps.com) - both great alternatives for games and applications.

We offer:

* FREE "download protection" for life! Simply register with ClickPayGo (www.clickgamer.com/clickpaygo) (if you have bought from us before use the same email and past purchases will be hooked up)
* TONS of pre-checked quality games and software (no jumble sale!)
* FREE GAMES for Pocket PC - check the FREE stuff area of ClickPayGo (http://www.clickgames.com/clickpaygo)
* BUY using ClickPayGo Wallet, PayPal, MoneyBookers to buy (plus plastic of course)
* SUPERB customer support - every email is answered within 24 hours (often within the hour)

... we are also running a special promo - paste this coupon code into the registration screens (www.clickgamer.com/clickpaygo) and get 3 USD free credit to spend on anything .... code: e410994c4e

I checked out your site, but there's no mention of how and when you pay the developers. This is especially important for those of us who cannot cash a check (this country stopped using checks 20 plus years ago, no bank will take one anymore). Is it the ever-expensive bank transfer from a US-account, or is there a less expensive Paypal option?

Developers need to know this stuff, because if your payment options aren't there, there's no point in filling out the app and setting up the product pages.

Otherwise, it looks like a nicely laid out site.

[gnad]

As a consumer I think should chip in few words about my Handango's experiences. Most of my softwares are purchased from Handango (~ > 30 pieces) and I have not encountered any problem but once. In that time I could not get key codes , but after few e-mails flying back and forth , I finally get the keys.
Recently, they've added the "protection download" which I could not fathom . But other software vendors have similar things ie . Ulead ...
As far I am concern if these charges are not compulsory or posing any risk with the transaction then we can ignore them and get on with our usual bussiness.

[clickgamer]

We pay on request to developers - payment options include PayPal , so no problem there! To sign-up please go to www.clickgamer.com/apply we can then process your application so you can upload content :D

[Pixelnose]

As a consumer I think should chip in few words about my Handango's experiences. Most of my softwares are purchased from Handango (~ > 30 pieces) and I have not encountered any problem but once. In that time I could not get key codes , but after few e-mails flying back and forth , I finally get the keys.
Recently, they've added the "protection download" which I could not fathom . But other software vendors have similar things ie . Ulead ...
As far I am concern if these charges are not compulsory or posing any risk with the transaction then we can ignore them and get on with our usual bussiness.

But IMO it does interfere with the transaction since we've had reports that the protection fee is already added to the cart when you purchase. That's an extra purchase that neither the developer or the customer asked for, and the last time I checked, which was when this whole scheme began, there's no statement of it anywhere in their policies. The customer can only read the policy at the point of checkout.

Developers weren't warned at all either. It was just a sudden "Surprise!" which makes the whole thing feel like its run by Tony Soprano.

Clickgamer, thanks for letting us know, the site really does have a nice layout. :)

[Ilium Software]

Hey Everyone,

For a variety of reasons I'm not going to wade into this argument too deep, but I did want to offer some additional developer perspective.

First off, we have a direct sales, non-Handango store available on our website that we run (in addition to a Handango affiliated store.) Here is the link:

http://iliumsoft.com/site/custserv/catus2.htm

For some background about why we have two stores just check out the explanation here: http://iliumsoft.com/site/custserv/purchinf.htm

Part of the reason we have a Handango store, though, is that our customers asked for one. Many people prefer Handango.

Now as for some of the questions:

What I want to know, do developers have a choice to distribute their own software or is the process of handling your own software distribution just not worth it?

What does it take to sell and distribute software over the web and what is it worth to have someone else do it for you?


It costs a lot of money to distribute software (at least on a large scale). Not only is it a tough job setting up a top-notch online store, but daily processing, fulfillment, redownload, accounting, shipment, refunds, fraud prevention, security, and all the other aspects of selling software eats up time and thus money. And the cost doesn't go away after the sale. Long term support of the purchase means long term costs.

So yes, anyone can open their own store but in many cases it really IS more beneficial (and profitable) for a company to have someone else do it.

But 40% markup, for what? The only question is, does Pocket Gear also charge that much to a developer?

That's a pretty standard rate today.

What about developers forminng some kind of membership union and form a competing distribution channel. Membership dues can pay for the upkeep, management and house keeping. Maybe even a little advertising. Then the more members that come on, the more finances for expansion and advertising.

Great idea, but the problem is finding someone who is happy to abandon their software development to run a project like this.

In all the times this subject has come up, I've never seen one developer even suggest the possibility that something could be done.

Again, our business is creating great software for our customers. If we start focusing on establishing some sort of online store, we can't create software.

As for new stores, there are LOTS of online software stores out there. In fact new ones open all the time. Do we sign up to be on them all? No. Why? Because for a software developer, being on a new store costs money. We have to process purchases, verify customers, balance sales figures to our system, maintain updates, manage things like 'device lists', mail codes, and much more. And we have to do this for every single reseller.

It might not sound like a lot but it really does start to add up. When we list on a new store we need to know that the return is going to more than offset the cost. And remember that return isn't just the check we get. Return is, as someone mentioned, the fact that you can find the Handango top 10 list on sites all across the web. Return is that Motricity (the parent compant of PocketGear and PalmGear) has exclusive agreements to run stores for major device manufacturers like Palm. Return is when Handango brokers a deal to provide trial software for the CD that comes in the box with your Pocket PC.

I'm not saying that Handango or PocketGear or any distributor is without fault. Over the past 9 years we've had plenty of disagreements with our distributors. And I'm not suggesting that they don't need to work on their customer service. They do! I'm just offering a little additional perspective that will help everyone to make their own decision.

And as always, if you EVER have trouble with a reseller in regards to one of our products, let us know! We'll do everything we can to help!

Marc Tassin
Ilium Software
--------------------
[email protected]
+1 (734) 973-9388
---------------------
http://www.iliumsoft.com

And be sure check out our new blog! http://blog.iliumsoft.com/

[maximum360]

It's a shame that developers and consumers alike are getting scammed (especially at Handango). I used to make most of my purchases there until I found out that you only had a limited amount of downloads (of the product you purchased) and after that you needed to reenter your credit card info over and over again.

For someone who has had a new PPC almost yearly and changed cards a few times this can be a nightmare. I decided to make all my future purchases at Pocketgear and I haven't had a problem since.

[dragonhand]

As an end user, I have been disgusted with Handango's "download protection" racket. I see it as no different than the protection rackets perpetrated by the mafia. When I purchase software products that offer free updates, I shouldn't have to suddenly pay extra charges to get the updates. It may not be a bad idea to complain to the Federal Trade Commission about Handango's unfair business practices. It's simply an outrage -- and maybe a breach of contract.

[fgarcia10]

I have bought most of my software from Handango, and their customer service everytime I have asked for, have been low average at best.

I never go to their website to find out about a software, I either find out in a website like this one or google or the developer website.

I have enought of them and their re-donwload policies. I rather give my bussines to modaco or clickapps.

[Mark Kenepp]

For a variety of reasons I'm not going to wade into this argument too deep, but I did want to offer some additional developer perspective.

Thanks, your post was one of the more informative in this thread and helped me form a better opinion about the issue being descussed.

[Pixelnose]

Amen it costs a lot to setup your own e-commerce solutions. There are a few rather rude emails we've gotten from customers, and lots of nice ones, but the rude ones really stick out ;) - demanding that we have our own automated downloads and shopping cart. We try to warn people it will take a day to process, but sometimes they don't always see it, so what can ya do?

But it's so cost prohibitive to have that kind of setup for skins, that we'd either have to raise the price to something that isn't worth it for skins, or we'd be running a skinning charity service.

So yeah, software download sites have their place, I just wish Handandgo earned that 40% commission by at the very least being straight with developers and consumers alike.

But if you're willing to wait a few hours for us to see and process the order, it costs a lot less and you'll still have permanent download access, but that's just us. :)

[KAMware]

This is a good discussion. Glad to see other people's views of this subject.

When I wrote the first ThemeMaker I did not have any intent of selling it. But the folks at PocketThemes talked me into it and they advertised it and sold it on their site. I then used PayPal only.

As the program and then programs became more popular and I started writing one for McDeb, Deb got me hooked up with an outfit called eSellerate. This company only handles the sales. Credit card transactions, the downloads, book keeping, etc. But not the advertising. There are other companies like them.

Their cut of the sale is far less than Handango and PocketGear.

I used both PocketGear and Handango for a while but when they started raising rates and other isssues I did not like came about I quit using them.
Plus I was selling more on my sites than they were.

I now just use my own sites and McDeb's to sell them and it works good for me.

The only thing Handango and PocketGear offer that eSellerate is the supposed marketing portion. But they do not do much in that regards unless you want to pay them even more. Plus much of your competition is also on the same site!

I see them now as a good place for someone just starting up. To get some exposure. After you get going then go it on you own.

The key is marketing and you do not need them to do that.

Thanks for reading.

:)

[hfann]

As a developer, I would like to add my 2 cents. Pocketgear actually charge more than Handango. They split up their fees and commissions and at the end, it costs us more than 40%. The worst part is that Pocketgear leaves us to deal with IRS (because we are not a US company). I stopped selling at Pocketgear when they try to withhold taxes when there is no need to do so. (Canada is exempt from withholding.) :evil: I have no such hassle from Handango regarding taxes.

Although Handango charges 40%, it at least gives us more exposure. In the past, Handango sales is usually 4 times more than Pocketgear. I find it hard for Pocketgear to justify a > 40% commission charge.

Fann Software
http://www.fannsoftware.com

[Birdiestyle]

Yes, well put Marc. I had a similar post started but you seemed to convey the messages very well.

Ill just re-touch on a few points:

1. If you are going to purchase a product and want to support the developer as much as you can, you definitely should use their own website, even if they use a Handango powered store(as the developer still gets more than the 60% that way).

But if you found a product browsing at one particular reseller, well consider that fact as the reason why you found the software at all....

2. For developer's: A Paypal shopping cart is a very easy thing to setup, Pros: You get great percentages, and some people prefer it. Cons: more bookkeeping/processing.

3. Yes, most developers don't agree with the "download protection" either. Turn it off when buying, and visit the developer's site if you need
to re-download this software, as this works in most cases. This protection system is designed for one software model, unfortunately that is a model that most of us developers in the Pocket PC world dont use....

4. The 40% is a debatable topic, but they do offer a ton of exposure and other processing and a lot more behind the scenes for that. And Handango is the best in this regard.

I know of some AWESOME products who's developer(s) refused to go on Handango, and so lost out on potentially 1000s upon 1000s of dollars simply on principle. They could have put it there(if it was listed correctly), and not promoted Handango anywhere on their own channels/site and still would have easily made so much more than they did. (this is probably not as true for any other channel).

5. Just an FYI: Pocketgear charges OVER 40% as well but seem to still gloss over it instead of being upfront about it. (This % + scrubbing fees + cc fees). Though again, Motricity(Pocketgear) does create exposure and does some of the other stuff already mentioned as well...

6. Mobihand(Modaco uses this) seems like a great up and coming site, that hopefully sticks with their 30% cut. It started out with a very cool site, both front and back end....


So hopefully that clears this up some more. I dont want to get to vocal into this, as I have to get back to coding.... :)

Thanks

Brian
Birdsoft.net

[Pixelnose]

I'd also like to point out that for those who think they're doing developers a favor by using Pocketgear - Pocketgear may be US-friendly, but they're nowhere near international-friendly. We would have posted the skins at Pocketgear ages ago, but there's no way for them to pay us, which is a bit of an obstacle. ;)

So anyone wondering why we don't use Pocketgear, that's why. :)

[SlipstreamSolutions]

We're a software developer (www.slipstreamsolutions.co.uk) and although 40% may seem steep consider this:

- We're in the UK and getting payments PayPal'ed over is pretty handy. US cheques cost £'s to get cashed and they take ages to hit the bank account.

- Handango make it much easier than certain other PDA sites we could mention when it comes to handling US tax.

- Handango gives us excellent exposure. When we listed our first product a couple of years ago it took approximately 45 minutes for someone to notice and buy. We also list on PocketGear and Smartphone.net and they're good too. A couple of other sites we tried just didn't work out due to lack of sales.

- If developers really didn't like Handango they would leave and set up their own e-commerce. Anyway, all you need is some CGI-enabled web space, a mySQL database and a PayPal account. As it happens we run our own PayPal-powered e-commerce as well as listing on Handango but we generally get more sales on Handango.

- Consider how much 'big business' makes it sells software solutions like database, mobile and CRM. A good margin would be 20-40%, so 60% return on software is pretty good.

- And as a final comparison, how much do you think authors get paid for each copy of a book they sell? I can tell you it's a lot less than 60%.

We're not like a huge fan or anything...we're just realistic.

Jo

[crairdin]

Marc from Ilium did a good job summing up some responses from the perspective of a developer. Let me add a few more points.

First, we appreciate all the sales we get from any channel, Handango included. So when I make comments here I'm going to address all the ESDs (electronic software distributors) not just Handango. So I'm not picking on them but on their kind.

Second, some background for the uninitiated: It's relatively straightforward to set up your own software distribution capability on your Web site. There are a variety of third-party solutions and rolling your own e-commerce and/or download solution isn't impossible. But it takes time. If you're a one-person shop working nights and weekends, using the ESDs for your fulfillment and sales isn't a bad option.

The average discount that a developer gives to a retail store that sells boxed software is from 40% to 50%. In this case the developer has paid the cost of the goods, which might be around $3-$5 for a CD/DVD, manual, and nice box. The retail store has lots of costs to pay -- rent, utilities, salaries, advertising, etc. -- so giving them 50% to 60% of the total revenue is fair.

The developer establishes a suggested price and a discount structure. So we might decide to sell our program for $30 and offer it to the store for 50% off ($15). The store decides the actual selling price. So they could sell our program for $20 and only make $5 profit per unit sold. That's fine with us -- it's their margin. In fact, the store could sell our program for $50 and keep $35 profit. If the market will bear it, it's OK with us.

The problem with the ESDs is this:

1) They set the selling price
2) They set the discount structure
3) They don't have the overhead of a retail store

So they decide that the developer gets 40% of the revenue, then they decide how much the program is going to sell for. If we think the program is worth $30, they might agree with that or they might sell it for $25. If they sell it for $25, our portion of the selling price is based on $25, not $30. They could sell our software for $5 and send us only $3 when we were expecting $18.

While they don't have the overhead of a brick and mortar retail store, they demand the same discount we give to brick and mortar stores.

The reason most developers continue to deal with them is that they often have deals with sites like Palm, PalmSource, Microsoft, HP, and others to provide the software commerce at those companies' Web sites. That can mean a lot of volume.

So the relationship between developer and ESD tends to be one of mutual hatred, even though both highly prize the value the other brings to the table. Handango may power a big OEM site, resulting in lots of sales. That's great -- we respect that. And Handango needs to have developer products, so they respect us for what we do.

What the ESDs don't realize is that when you treat your friends like crap, you're counting on never needing their help. When PalmGear went through a big financial crisis 3-4 years ago and needed developers to discount their debt in order to get out from under it, we were unmoved. We not only demanded to be paid, but demanded to be paid with interest. When you're an ESD, being tough with your developers is all fine and dandy, but don't expect to get favors in return. We did, by the way, get paid 100% of what PalmGear owed us, and we earned 12% interest on our money over the 3+ years it took them to pay us back.

As far as working together with other developers to counteract the ESDs, we've tried that in a couple different formats. We're members of a group of mostly Palm OS entrepreneurs that represents all the major Palm software companies and a lot of unknown Palm software companies. We've tried a couple times to put together a consortium of some kind to sell our software together as a group, but as Marc said it's difficult to get anyone to dedicate the time to it.

One of the other frustrations we have with the ESDs is they don't like us to put our Web address on any of our demos. They want people to register with them so they can get the revenue from the demo upgrade. They don't want people to know that you can go directly to the developer site to pay for the product and get a reg code. In fact, they ask that we put links to THEIR sites in our demos so it appears their site is the only place to pay. This of course requires that we create a special version of all of our programs for each ESD.

This requirement not to reveal our identity in our demos combines with what I was saying before: They want a favor but in every other respect they treat us like crap. So the response is that we just pull our demos from their site, resulting in fewer sales for them.

Ironically, our research into this subject revealed that users are downloading the demos from our corporate Web site then buying the full version through the ESD site. So the fear that users will download the demo from the ESD then pay at the developer site has to be offset by the measurable reality that the users are actually doing it the other way around.

With all this said, we continue to do business with Handango and PocketGear, though not with PalmGear. We just don't cut them any slack.

Hope this helps with understanding the developer/ESD relationship. It is a strained relationship most of the time. It's both good and bad for the Pocket PC economy, depending on what you look at and when you look at it.

Craig Rairdin
President
Laridian, Inc.

[Ilium Software]

We're not like a huge fan or anything...we're just realistic.

Well said. There is absolutely room for improvement and we've never been shy about voicing our opinions to Handango, PocketGear, or any other reseller. Still, there are distinct benefits these resellers offer that other resellers (particularly smaller ones) just can't offer.

Marc Tassin
Ilium Software
--------------------
[email protected]
+1 (734) 973-9388
---------------------
http://www.iliumsoft.com

And be sure check out our new blog! http://blog.iliumsoft.com/

[Pixelnose]

To give an update on the clickapp idea, it's a cool site that's nicely laid out, but it's not too friendly to developers selling skin suites. You can't embed the images within the item description, and you can only add 6 screenshots to a page separate to the item description. That may work for your average program, but we need very many screenshots to show people what's in the skin suite. Newbies especially get confused enough about what a skin suite is, as it is, without further trying to condense a monster like Swdeluxe down to 6 screenshots.

To make matters worse, you can't add your own box graphics, you have to email them, and they make it for you, which I can tell you right now isn't going to happen as far as Juni's concerned. No one's going to do his graphics for him. ;)

There also aren't enough characters allowed to fully explain the suite and what is required.

The reason I say this here is so Clickapp can take some of this on board and do what they will, and in case anyone wonders why, if we dislike Handango so much, don't we use other alternatives.

[JMac]

Handango is absolutely one of the most frustrating companies with which I have had the displeaure to do business. You can either lambast or praise their business model, but you have to admit whenever have occasion to do business with them - from a consumer or developer standpoint - they can cause frustratiin like few other companies can.

My quick list of Handango complaints (I could go on for a lot longer than this!): The download Protection, of course, which is only the latest indignity they have foisted on this near-captive clientele.

A website that seems to have no organization to it at all; try searching for almost any program and you'll see just how bad it is. Often you can actually type in the exact name of an application and get 0 results returned. We all have at times ended up scrolling to find what we are looking for.

Poor device categorization - My Cingular 8125, which is a Pocket PC device using the WM5 OS was dsignated as a Smartphone and if I had that selected as my device the site would keep re-directing me away from the programs I found to the smartphone software section.

Where's the discounts? There was a time when you could use a discount code from most of the PPC forums sites, like Pocket PC Thoughts. Not any more. Discount promotions are rarely used anymore. Hey, we don't have many options if we don't like it.

No real support at all. Try sending in a support request. You'll get a quick acknowledgement, and if you are fortunate enough to get any other mail from them, it is usually a notification that your request has been closed. Don't know why, since they never do anything in between.

A "fake" forum. Ever signed up and posted there? You cannot even read posts unless you register, there is no Handango support there, and anything you post that is even mildly critical is immediately deleted. I don't mean nasty posts; I mean posting that you are having a dificult time reaching support - boom, it's gone. If you haven't seen the forum but need a good laugh - or cry - go take a look.

Best yet - and I'd love to see the developers here comment on this - phony awards. In 2004 an application that had a total of 368 downloads took over 1st place. At the end they had stayed ahead even though they still had barely over 400 downloads by then. I thought that Handango would see the obvious and disqualify them. Nope. So a hardly used application beat out the likes of SPB, WebIS, Developer One, etc. Wonder what they paid for that?
As I said, I could go on, but my fingers are getting tired. As most have stated, there's not much in the way of alternatives. I purchase direct from developers whenever available.

If this market would continue to grow, maybe more competition would even things out. But sadly the PPC software market is not growing much at all, so we will not see any more outfits willing to enter this arena against a well-established Handango.

[forestflyer]

I hardly ever post, but I got this sent to my inbox, and after reading the main post and skimming the comments I have to add my voice, because my frustrations with Handango are longstanding: From a consumer's point of view

Handango is the worst thing about owning a PocketPC.

After I got an Ipaq 4150 a couple of years ago, I made the mistake of buying software from Handango, and I continued to, unfortunately, for a year. (I've stopped now, but am hooked into them for new versions, etc.) I've kept scrupulous records of my purchases. In every way they have been a pain in the ass.

Some developers have chimed in with generally mixed reviews and resignation. I don't have time now go into any of a dozen nightmare interactions I've had with their lame customer service via email and phone re: re-downloading, updating to a new version, lost account info., the new (as of February '06) scam they call "download protection", etc., but as a consumer, I want to echo the concerns expressed by other users.

The site navigation is the lamest of just about any internet store I've seen. It's confusing, overly-cluttered with meaningless marketing awards, and full of marketing hype everywhere you look. The user comments are a sham--can anyone say they're not? It's absolutely nothing like Amazon.com. (Handango's "star" ratings don't mean sh*t, to give one example, and the comments themselves are marketing ploys.) Handango is a dishonest site. It takes a lot of time to find out what's the most appropriate software in a category for your needs. It's not user-friendly and it's not a deal for customers, despite their silly little clubs and credits.

I would urge any new device owner to look at Handango carefully, and if you agree it's mediocre, to steer clear of them. Look to the alternatives given earlier in this thread.

I haven't bought much software the past year. PocketGear doesn't seem to be much different, certainly the pricing is similar. I always buy directly from developers when possible. It would be great if every developer simply accepted PayPal. Seems that Handango is the favorite child of Microsoft and is pretty entrenched. I'll look at the Usenet that was recommended. In reading this thread it seems that Clickgamer and Clickapps might be good for an end-user--I'll check them out.

My main point is that Handango doesn't deserve your business. They simply do a poor job. Try an alternative and save yourself a lot of headaches.

Thank you for starting this thread.

[ppcinfo]

I'm a Pocket PC software developer who has been selling applications on the web for the last several years, and here are my two cents:

Developers seem to complain about the 40-50% commissions that Handango and PocketGear charges, but they aren't forcing you to use their web site to sell your software. If you don't like the commission agreement, don't sell your software on their site! This is analogous to some emails that I've received from people blasting me for charging too much for my software. My internal response to this is, "if you don't like the pricing, don't buy it!". The same goes for selling on Handango and PocketGear... if you don't like the commission rates, don't sell on their sites!

As stated in previous postings, Handango and PocketGear do have numerous requirements and rules for posting software for sale on their web site. You can't have your web site address in the description listing, you need to have a web link displayed in the splash screen or "about" screen of your application, etc. Because of all these rules and regulations, I've stopped selling on both sites.

I made a decision a few years ago to create my own web site for selling software, and went through the pain of setting up an eCommerce credit card processor, Internet Merchant banking account, etc. I also had to find a web host provider that allowed for running cgi-bin scripts, and I also had to write my own javascript coding to process shopping carts. In the end, the time spend doing so was well worth it, as the overhead for selling software from my site went from the 40-50% (from Handango/PocketGear) to less than 10%. The cgi-bin scripts that I've written will automatically handle the credit card processing and registration code processing and emailing. I don't need to manually send out registration codes, so the user gets immediate gratification when making purchases from my site. I encourage any developer who wants to receive more profit from their software sales to create their own web site for selling their products.

ppcinfo

[rlalouche]

I agree - 40% is too much. I believe they should have a minimum base fee, then a much lower percentage. For example - $5 to $10 flat fee, then 5% above that up to a max of 20% including the flat fee. I think both developers and Hangango would profit more under such a structure.

[JMac]

I agree - 40% is too much. I believe they should have a minimum base fee, then a much lower percentage. For example - $5 to $10 flat fee, then 5% above that up to a max of 20% including the flat fee. I think both developers and Hangango would profit more under such a structure.
Really? How would Handango "...profit more under such a structure."? I think you could think this through just a bit more... :wink:

[mbranscum]

Download protection...SCAM is right on the money. I got so upset when they imposed it, I wrote them a letter. Got a nice letter back and a $20 gift credit.

I still won't ever buy from them again if I can help it.

What a outright, blatant ripoff!!!! I hope they get hurt bad for what they've done...right in their OWN pocket books!

[Paragon]

I agree - 40% is too much.

Ok, as usual I have to be bluntly honest. I think everyone who is complaining about the 40% cut needs to revisit "economics 101"

No business is in business for the highest profit margin. They are in business for the highest net profit. You can sell through a site that is going to take a 20% cut and have a nice margin, or you can sell it through a high exposure site that takes a 40% cut. The difference in cost between righting one piece of software and thousands of copies of that same piece is extremely low. So, you can take an 80% cut of a few or a 60% cut of perhaps thousands.

I won't for a second defend Handango in all of their policies. I too believe it is extremely sleazy of them to try and slip in the download insurance, but by the same token they are far from the only ones doing it. Have you bought any antivirus software lately? There are a growing number of large international software companies out there doing the same thing. It is a scam....a growing one.

Personally I want there to be a place like Handango that makes a good profit selling software. This way I know they will be there when I need them and I will always have a dependable spot to find software. I learned a long time ago not to begrudge anyone making a profit off the product I work so hard to produce. I also learned a long time ago that I have to do business with some sleazy people sometimes, if I'm going to pay my mortgage each month. I work hard to make a product and price it at a level that we can all make a decent profit on it. The more money they make, the more I make. If all parties involved can't make a good profit, then it is doomed. It gets no more simple than that.

If you are not comfortable with someone else making a decent profit off your software then perhaps you should consider starting a nonprofit co-op to sell your product.

I think it is commendable for Clickgamer and the others to step up and offer their services at a lower rate. Good for them! However as places like that grow, so do costs, and so do the headaches and frustrations of running such an operation. That is when it becomes difficult to continue with little profit. It comes to a point where it just is not worth the effort to continue unless there is a fair reward for the effort.

Dave

[clickgamer]

In response to Craig from Laridian, Inc. -- I want to point out a some key differences with the way Clickgamer (http://www.clickgamer.com) works with developers ...

1. We don't set the end price - the developer/content partner has full control of this.
2. We never discount software without permission first from the developer.
3. We power many branded stores - their cut comes out of our portion, so the developer contains to receive the normal commission
4. There is no obligation for a developer to label demos as Clickgamer - they can mention their own site and/or URL, no problem at all.
5. We support all registration mechanisms even if the customer has to go to the developer site to unlock and/or register - we're 100% flexible on this!

... not all ESD's are bad ! Clickgamer (http://www.clickgamer.com) and Clickapps (http://www.clickapps.com) are run by genuine enthusiasts who want to see developers prosper so that they can go on to make MORE great software. There is no point in crippling developers (and causing resentful feelings) with high charges and poor service.

To give an update on the clickapp idea, it's a cool site that's nicely laid out, but it's not too friendly to developers selling skin suites. You can't embed the images within the item description, and you can only add 6 screenshots to a page separate to the item description. That may work for your average program, but we need very many screenshots to show people what's in the skin suite. Newbies especially get confused enough about what a skin suite is, as it is, without further trying to condense a monster like Swdeluxe down to 6 screenshots.

To make matters worse, you can't add your own box graphics, you have to email them, and they make it for you, which I can tell you right now isn't going to happen as far as Juni's concerned. No one's going to do his graphics for him. ;)

There also aren't enough characters allowed to fully explain the suite and what is required.

The reason I say this here is so Clickapp can take some of this on board and do what they will, and in case anyone wonders why, if we dislike Handango so much, don't we use other alternatives.

We're taken onboard your points pixelnose and done the following :

1. We now allow up to 12 screenshots - pls upload some more!
2. The product description has been upped to 5000 characters - feel free to say more!
3. If you wish to embed screens or even flash movies within the description email [email protected] and we'll co-ordinate this with you. We already do this , see the following two examples (the former has an embedded movie, the second some flash ) ... Ancient Evil (http://www.clickgamer.com/moreinfo.htm?pid=2672&amp;section=PPC) and Arcade Park (http://www.clickgamer.com/moreinfo.htm?pid=4820&amp;section=PPC)

[jcubes]

Someone create a search engine that lists the urls for developer sites and maybe a few lines of text describing the product. People then go straight to the developer and none of this commission BS.

That's the best solution... yes perhaps place a google adwords banner at the bottom or something to get some revenue and help keep the site afloat... and ask people to help by checking out the links on the banner from time to time... but that's it...

I realize that this doesn't help the dev that doesn't have the ability to charge people but hey there's paypal and now google checkout to handle that part... and the dev will have to endure the download bandwidth for their app but at least they don't LOSE 40% of every transaction. Heck, maybe even post a tutorial for the devs on how to set up payment options for themselves.

If you post the url to enough places it could gain popularity... just look at craigslist?? I wish ebay would disappear and just have them. Don't even get me started on the Ebay/Paypal double dipping scam they have going on... same parent company charging ya for the auction and the payment method... ridiculous.

If someone gets this together I'll gladly offer any other ideas to help get it off the ground... FREE of Charge! Just PM me. but only if they don't charge this silly percentage stuff. I won't help launch another handango or pocketgear, etc.

Why? 'Cause I'm sick of monopolies that don't provide service levels comensurate with the rates they charge. I know it's tough to code and the devs DESERVE their share not the greedy software/esd sites such as those mentioned. 40%? for shame!

I'm sure the flaming will begin from this post shortly... Sorry, if any esd site representatives get offended, but this has to change... And we all know there will always be people who prefer an ESD site so they shouldn't feel threatened. Are they all bad? No, I'm not saying that.. The ones that are know what shenanigans they are up to. But choice is sorely needed.

just my 2 cents,

jcubes

[JMac]

@jcubes:

...That's the best solution... yes perhaps place a google adwords banner at the bottom or something to get some revenue and help keep the site afloat... and ask people to help by checking out the links on the banner from time to time... but that's it...

jcubes
Not a flame, but the above quote suggesting illegal and unethical behavior takes away from any serious consideration of your entire post. You do realize that actually doing the above could single-handedly put a developer out of business?

[Marcel_Proust]

@jcubes:

...That's the best solution... yes perhaps place a google adwords banner at the bottom or something to get some revenue and help keep the site afloat... and ask people to help by checking out the links on the banner from time to time... but that's it...

jcubes
Not a flame, but the above quote suggesting illegal and unethical behavior takes away from any serious consideration of your entire post. You do realize that actually doing the above could single-handedly put a developer out of business?

why unethical or illegal or put anyone out of business, except giving people more choices and maybe hurting handango bottom line? maye i'm missing something, please explain.

[drthomasho]

I had ALREADY decided to STOP buying from Handango! :!:

[JMac]

...why unethical or illegal or put anyone out of business, except giving people more choices and maybe hurting handango bottom line? maye i'm missing something, please explain.
I'm talking about asking visitors to click on Adwords links for the sole purpose of deriving income from it. That's been big in the news recently - apparently it's directly against the rules of Adwords, as it falsely causes advertisors using Adwords on a "per click" basis. See this article as an example. (http://adwords.blogspot.com/2006/03/about-invalid-clicks.html)

[Jason Dunn]

&lt;whispers>

http://www.mobihand.com/pocketpcthoughts/

(coming soon...developers get your apps up there!)

[JMac]

&lt;whispers>

http://www.mobihand.com/pocketpcthoughts/

(coming soon...developers get your apps up there!)
Sweet, Jason...

A H_____go-free solution?

Promise not to gouge on re-downloads? :wink:

[jeff_geared]

Illium Said:
For a variety of reasons I'm not going to wade into this argument too deep, but I did want to offer some additional developer perspective.

Well, let me give you some clear advantages (particularly after sales) &amp; untold things in this disucssion so far.

I was also developing software for PDAs &amp; distributing it through Handango &amp; Pocket Gear. The advantage of using these to channels is you get a sale (almost) within 24 hours of your product release.

Now the question is about this 40% commision, or worse if you are a developer outside USA (you need to pay the 15% to 30% withholding taxes).

Remember, it gets you a *customer* which is most important for marketing your other products.

Now, when you have quality software products, you can be assured that your existing customer is going to first look at your website for new software or upgrades (even if he sees a new product at Handango/PocketGear).

Now you can setup a payment process in your website... but

As Illium Said:
It costs a lot of money to distribute software (at least on a large scale). Not only is it a tough job setting up a top-notch online store, but daily processing, fulfillment, redownload, accounting, shipment, refunds, fraud prevention, security, and all the other aspects of selling software eats up time and thus money. And the cost doesn't go away after the sale. Long term support of the purchase means long term costs.

Now Handango can do it for you, but you don't have to loose 40% anymore if you are selling it through your website or for your existing customers.

Simply setup a Handango Commerce Engine which will get you 80% of sales (70% developer commision + 10% Affiliate Commision).

This 80% would be worth more than setting up your own payment process &amp; all those related hassles.

Bonus : Mind you, you can link other developers' software through your Commerce Engine and you can still earn the 10% Affiliate Commision

Setting up this commerce engine does not cost you anything.

* PocketGear/Motricity has only an affiliate commision which is 3% (too low for referring a sale, isn't it?).
* MobiHand/MobiReach are also creating customized store for your website.

[jcubes]

...why unethical or illegal or put anyone out of business, except giving people more choices and maybe hurting handango bottom line? maye i'm missing something, please explain.
I'm talking about asking visitors to click on Adwords links for the sole purpose of deriving income from it. That's been big in the news recently - apparently it's directly against the rules of Adwords, as it falsely causes advertisors using Adwords on a "per click" basis. See this article as an example. (http://adwords.blogspot.com/2006/03/about-invalid-clicks.html)

Okay I'll address this since my initial wording seems to have been misunderstood... Adwords would only show PPC or PDA related links so they might be interesting to fellow PPC users... now, did anyone say you should just whimsically click if you have no interest?? Nope, I agree that would be CPC fraud... so if the site visitors have a legitimate interest in something in that ad banner they could click it and read through the site and determine their next action. That scenario wouldn't be fraudulent, illegal, or put any developers out of business...

So, a good question, but still not a show stopper to free market for developers rather than bondage thru those particilar esd hosting companies that price gouge..

[jcubes]

&lt;whispers>

http://www.mobihand.com/pocketpcthoughts/

(coming soon...developers get your apps up there!)

Always good to see alternatives...

go jason...

[Steve Sharp]

You know, this topic caught my eye because of a review that I did very recently. This was the first time I'd seen this, but the title I was reviewing was $4.95 on Pocket Gear but it was $6.95 on Handango. From a reviewer's perspective, this complicated the matter of stating a price for the title beingreviewed. I always use links to Pocket Gear, anyway, under the "Where to Buy" link, so I suppose that I should just list the price on the "Where to Buy" link.

But, I think the saddest thing is that it would appear that the greed of Handango (and probably other online software distributors) is turning into another exploitive relationship such as many music artists encounter with the record companies.

I agree with those who see a potential remedy for this problem by having a place for prospective customers to go and find the software that they desire and buy it directly from the creator. I'm really getting sick of big businesses exploiting the small guy who is just trying to share his or her product with the world and getting fair compensation for his/her work.

[clickgamer]

Clickgamer can provide partners with a better alternative to the Handango engine - our MiniCart solution gives 85% to 90% back to the partner

[sweb3028]

I was a LOYAL Handango customer for years. It started with my First Treo. The software included with the device actually linked to them for software. I had absolutely no problems with them … until I had a problem. I had the same experiences with customer service as most others did. Although, only in the last few months have I seriously started searching for alternatives. I liked the idea that they offered rewards to loyal customers. I felt the download protection was a racket from the start, but I never partook in that scam. I never realized that it was an across-the-board problem until I started seeing some remarks in the forums here. I will gladly take my business to another site if they are more than just the “better of two weasels”. I do try to buy my software from the developer’s site when possible now. Many of the developer’s also reward their loyal customers with discounts as well.

IMHO, this site is one of THE great sources for information and advice. I believe that the support of a site from the people that participate here would go a long way.

[Airscanner]

Some other developers have recently suggested that we band together in a "Developer's Interests Group." This seems like a good idea. That way, we could share ideas. We would also have a collective voice that was larger than our individual parts. It also might be an easier starting point than trying to start a developer-run ESD service. (That was tried a few years ago, after a thread similar to this one came out, but it fell apart quickly).

A Developer's Interests Group could be effective if we get a LOT of people to join...small developers, large developers, end users, eMVPs, etc. It would also be crucial to have a lot of the top-selling developers join. But I'm not sure if the "top sellers" would be interested in joining a developer's consortium, since they are already "on top".

If a bunch of us come together, it makes us harder to ignore. I know someone who can donate a server/bandwidth etc. if we want to set up a listserv.

Take care and God bless,

Brad

[Rob Alexander]

I've bought quite a bit from Handango, but that's just because that's where the developers have sent me. I never go to Handgo to see what's there. I find out about new software from web sites (mostly here), reviews, etc. and tend to check out the developer's site first. I'm only one customer, and not a prolific purchaser at that (since I already have most of what I need), but when I do buy, I buy it wherever the developer says to. If you want to sell it direct, then I'm happy with that and if you want me to buy it from Handango then I'm also happy with that.

[ppcinfo]

There already exists a few established groups for supporting Pocket PC developers. A Yahoo Groups site called "windowsce-dev" is a great place to post questions and search for answers, as well as the Pocket PC Developer Network (www.pocketpcdn.com) which offers similar discussion forums for developers. The only problem with these two sites (and others) is that a lot of people post questions but not many developers answer them. I guess knowledge is a "competitive" advantage that most developers do not want to share. I personally try to answer postings that I can do in a reasonable amount of time, but most people do not (or so it seems).

For a "Developer's Interest Group", what would you suggest be done differently to what already exists on the internet?

ppinfo
Some other developers have recently suggested that we band together in a "Developer's Interests Group." This seems like a good idea. That way, we could share ideas. We would also have a collective voice that was larger than our individual parts. It also might be an easier starting point than trying to start a developer-run ESD service. (That was tried a few years ago, after a thread similar to this one came out, but it fell apart quickly).

A Developer's Interests Group could be effective if we get a LOT of people to join...small developers, large developers, end users, eMVPs, etc. It would also be crucial to have a lot of the top-selling developers join. But I'm not sure if the "top sellers" would be interested in joining a developer's consortium, since they are already "on top".

If a bunch of us come together, it makes us harder to ignore. I know someone who can donate a server/bandwidth etc. if we want to set up a listserv.

Take care and God bless,

Brad

[Airscanner]

What was suggested to me by some developers was to join into a sort of Windows Mobile "Developers Union." That group power might allow us to negotiate better with ESDs, encouraging them to bring down their commission rates if possible. That could in turn drive down consumer prices, resulting in more sales, and more overall revenue for both developers and ESDs.

I don't know if such a union would be a good idea or not. I'm pretty ignorant about such things. Also, as you say, some larger developers might not want to share information.

But working together sounds like a good idea. For example, a long time ago the United States used to be 13 separate colonies. These separate colonies argued with each other all the time and couldn't even agree to come in out of the rain. But by some miracle they came together, and accomplished great things.

So, does anyone want to pursue such an idea? Or is there already such a group in existence?

Brad

[ppcinfo]

As someone mentioned in an earlier posting, a group of small developers decided to band together to sell their apps on a newly-formed web site when Handango raised their commission rates a few years ago. I remember checking out their web site, and it was very amateurish and not very professional looking. I think that attempt just faded away with waning interest.

Also, a few years ago Handango sent out a presentation to developers encouraging them to increase the price of posted applications. They did a "poll" of customers and learned that customers would pay higher prices than the average $9.95 US for most applications. Of course, higher prices means higher commissions for Handango! Pricing of an application is a very tricky subject, as too high of a price will turn customers off and too low will make your application appear cheap.

I'm not sure if a "Developer's Union" would work against ESDs like Handango or PocketGear. I do believe that having an alternative site to sell apps might be a better solution. I actually thought about putting together a site to do this, however, there were a number of pitfalls that prevented me from continuing it. The biggest problem is having a web host provider that can handle enormous bandwidth. Also, a good accounting system must be in place to track monthly sales of each developer and sending out a monthly royalty check. Can all this be done with a reasonable amount of overhead costs and a less than 40% commission from the developer? I don't know.

ppcinfo

[davea0511]

Wait - you are selling an app that generates $100 a year, and are complaining about paying $40 of that to Handango? They are running a site that creates a market for your product, and requires no hosting / maintenance from you - this seems like a good way to sell a niche product like you are selling. Your sales would likely be a fraction of this AND you'd have to support your own site otherwise.

To all those people out there who know very little about the monetary cost of doing what Handango does... let me clue you in. I have about 30+ websites, many with very nice and powerful stores that I built (including features like online coupons buying groups, affiliate accounts, etc. I do this with a resellers license that costs me a total of $600 / yr (which includes domain fees for 30+ sites), which provides me with plenty of bandwidth and disk space. No, this isn't a grossly oversold server either - I always get great pings - it's fast. How did I get such a great deal? It's not hard. I just did my shopping around.

My stores are free to build and Operate (I use OS Commerce), and nearly all my developer fees are next to nothing. My credit fees are only %2.2 through payquake, with an extra $100/year. Big deal.

Maintenance? I spend 10-20 minutes each day. I use templates for all my websites so they're a breeze to set up - and I'm good enough with Photoshop that you'd never know it was a template. That's all it takes, guys. Oh yeah, and design for SEO and trade links. Not a big deal.

Online hosting / maintenance is the biggest rippoff in the world - and it's all governed by the "knowlege is power" thing. I intentionally don't make hardly any money by selling my hosting and maintenance services - I provide those things as avenues to sell my other products, and I think it's a total crime when I hear about some clueless joe forking out $9000 for a website and hosting that I know the developer probably did in a week and cost him maybe $8 for the domain, which he put on a freebie sub-domain of another domain he already owned (there's no way for the customer to know whether or not he did that, neither does it make any difference).

Bottom line: Developers need to learn more about the hosting / etc and consolidate their efforts to combine their efforts to create a store that would cost them next to nothing and give Handango, PG, and others the bent-arm. To do otherwise is akin to running a business without an accountant. 40%! Sheesh! They're losing nearly half of thier income to someone who does relatively nothing. I understand that with brick-n-mortar stores because of the high cost of their infrastructure. Online stores? Infrastructure is virtual. All you need is some code monkeys and feed them enough bananas to finish the job. After that it's maintenance and networking. Piece of cake, especially if you offer your products for 30% less than Handango does.

I know. I do what Handango does, but without ripping off my suppliers and my customers. I'm not alone. There are 1000's of people just like me.

[davea0511]

I have to say one other thing about those customers who say Handango / PG / others provide a great service and they've done good by them...

Do you realize how much more you have to fork out because you go straight to them? Developers pay these exorbant fees and increase the price to do it and they do it because you don't take the time to shop around. Next time you think Handango is great and that you've purchase $1000 in software from them, realize that you paid them $400 for the convenience. Then revisit your opinion.

[ctitanic]

Although I have used Handango extensively for the past few years (over 80 purchases, mostly Pocket PC but some Palm), and have never had a problem with them (except for the silly having to re-enter a credit card number after downloading the fourth upgrade to a product I bought there), I would much prefer to use PayPal to pay the developer directly. Many, many years I ago I developed shareware and I know how hard it can be to make money at it, and that having 40% lopped off the top would not make me happy. Until about a year ago, I thought that Alex Kac made 24.95 off of each PI sale on Handango, and to find out that he only gets 60% or so of that just doesn't seem right to me. He works very hard to give users great products and I think he deserves to be appropriately compensated for it (not to mention all the free insights he offers in forums on this and other sites). I mention Alex because everybody knows he deserves to be paid well for great products and great service, but he is certainly not alone. Amit and CTitanic are two other greats that immediately pop to mind. Of course these folks can speak in their defense and can probably list many upsides to their relationships with Handango. I'm just saying I would prefer to pay them direct.

I'm offering discounts of my products from 30 to 33% when people buy them at my site using Paypal. And I have to say openly that the main reason why my products and all the other software sold at Handango and in other resellers stores have a higher price is because of this 40% commision. I have to say also publically that I have declined at least 3 offers this year of resellers that wanted to sell my programs asking for more than 30% of commission.

To me 40% is just a robbery. I'm saying this openly. They do not do nothing to deserve this money. And I know that for my own experience... I know the amount of work that I put in marketing my products and currently I'm selling at my site more than what Handango sells and I know for fact that more than 40% of Handango sells (the same applies to PocketGear) are customers using the links of these resellers in my own web site (people that do not want to use Paypal and prefer to go with these resellers!).

I keep using Handango because that was the first store I used and they are currently selling 30% of copies per month. But I categorize again here openly their commission as abusive.

[ctitanic]

Use the developer's pages if at all possible, the prices usually are lower since they don't have to make up for the 40% scam :).


juni, unfortunately no all developers do that. And this is pity because I think that this is the only method that will make Handango and other to low their commissions. We developers have all the resources to make this happens.

[Ilium Software]

And I have to say openly that the main reason why my products and all the other software sold at Handango and in other resellers stores have a higher price is because of this 40% commision.

I certainly respect your position and feelings on this and as I've said before, I agree that the resellers need to work to improve their offerings, both to the customer and the developers.

At the same time I think it is unfair to characterize all developers as raising their prices to cover the reseller costs. Our prices are what we feel is a fair price for our products. No matter what we get charged for selling a product we still sell those products for the same price. When Handango and PocketGear raised their rates we didn't raise our prices to cover that.

In fact we developed our pricing strategies before PocketGear and Handango existed. It's never been our business practice to pass costs along to the consumer. We sell our product at price X. If we sell it somewhere that charges 40%, then that is a direct profit loss for us. We don't make it up with higher prices.

Marc Tassin
Ilium Software
--------------------
[email protected]
+1 (734) 973-9388
---------------------
http://www.iliumsoft.com

And be sure check out our new blog! http://blog.iliumsoft.com/

[ctitanic]

At the same time I think it is unfair to characterize all developers as raising their prices to cover the reseller costs. Our prices are what we feel is a fair price for our products.

all depends of what your prices are. In my case I always had very low price in all my products and I had to increase them when they raised their commission.

I'm one of those that think that any software for Pocket PC should have a price between 10 to 15 dollars maximum. That what I liked most when I was just a palm owner, the low price of all programs designed for palm at the beginning and that's the idea that I always have tried to apply when I'm setting the prices of my products.

[Hx4700]

ctitanic, you are right about the price sweetspot being less than $20.
The exceptions would be a must have, killer app - such as a backup program, my main finance program, and Intellsync (for me, for Lotus on the desktop).
The only other exception for me is GPS Mapping programs - their prices are really painful - but its an area I enjoy.
Ron...

[GSmith]

I'm offering discounts of my products from 30 to 33% when people buy them at my site using Paypal. And I have to say openly that the main reason why my products and all the other software sold at Handango and in other resellers stores have a higher price is because of this 40% commision.

Is this in conformance with Handango's developer agreement? I thought they specifically mandated against differential pricing, that is, pricing differently on different sites, including the developer's own.

Or am I mis-remembering the terms of Handango's contract?

[Airscanner]

Yes, it is in the Handango agreement. However, I don't think it is enforcable. In fact, I'm pretty sure it is illegal, because it encourages "price fixing" that harms the consumer.

Note that I am not a lawyer. That is just my understaning from being in the business a while.

However, as a developer you really do want to sell it at your site for close to the full MSRP. Because if you discount too much, then you undercut your nice resellers, who will then have little incentive to push your products. Some of our best resellers are mom and pop companies.

As an alternative, you could offer time-limited sales or discounts on your site , just like you resellers can do on theirs.

Brad

[dommasters]

...... ... ...

[forestflyer]

Handango doesn't deserve your business. They simply do a poor job.

Look to the alternatives given earlier in this thread.

[Sogarth]

And just to add fat to the fire:

Handango closes Omnisoft account?! (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=421266)

I started another thread about that separately, since I felt it was a slightly separate issue (and important in its own right).

[forestflyer]

Handango is Evil. This topic should no go away.