The Destruction Of The English Language?

[Jon Westfall]

Earlier This Week on a forum devoted to the Pocket PC version of an anonymous piece of software:<br /><br /><i>"hi people just installed the app 5 min ago, and be4 the app loads up i get a message saying Expired so how am i ment to c if it works on my device be4 buying. i have had non of the deluxe versions on my xda 4 more than a day cus non of the others worked can sum1 please help me i realy want to buy the app if it works"</i><br /><br /> 8O Now there was a time when writing like this would have been thought to be the work of an 8 year old, today however, it's common. The scary thing is, it's starting to creep into forums and user groups that common sense suggests it shouldn't. After all, what would this guy use a Pocket PC for?<br /><br />With the advent of instant messaging, SMS messages, screen keyboards (Where text entry can be painfully slow), and tri-tap on phones with only numeric keyboards, abbreviations make sense. But has it gone too far? Technically, language theorists debate if a language should take a <i>proscriptive</i> approach (where the rules are clearly defined and people are obligated to follow them) or a <i>descriptive</i> approach (where the rules are modified to suit the current usage of the language). I've always felt strongly that language should be descriptive, but now I'm starting to see the proscriptive light. The even scarier fact is that I've received essays from <i>college freshman</i> that include 'u', 'becuz', and similar! What do you think - is it a serious threat to the English language, will it pass, or is it actually a &lt;shudder> good thing?

[Brad Adrian]

Well, my father is a retired English professor, so you can imagine what position has been engrained into my brain...;)

I have to agree with you, Jon; even though there is a place for abbreviations, like SMS and very casual exchanges, in other types of discussions it just looks a bit -- sorry -- ignorant. Every time I've landed a new job, promotion or desired "upgrade," I've tried to find out what tipped the scales in my favor, so I can try to continue to develop those skills. Without fail, an ability to communicate effectively and write professionally is at the top of the list.

So, kids, stay in school!!!

[capo]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but my guess is that a post written like that will be less effective in collecting useful replies than one where the author obviously took the time to try to communicate clearly. I tend to surf blogs sometimes when I get bored - when I run into one written in such a way that it almost needs a translator, I move on. Same thing with forum posts like the one you quoted. If I'd run into it in a forum instead of your editorial piece, I would have stopped reading about half way through.

[Tierran]

Y'know, it may hurt some sensibilities but in the grand scheme of things...it may be quite a natural progression. Language is pretty fluid over time. Some of what we see is shorthand...easier to type on a phone.

But some will stick I imagine. Not the end of civilization :)

[SteveHoward999]

Undoubtedly there is a natural progression to spoken and written language. Try reading a book written 200 years ago, 500 years ago or 1,000 years ago.

But the issue here is one of communication. I hang around several professional forums where the posters are all over the world. At least 30% of the posters are not native English speakers. When someone comes along using abbreviations like those noted here, we politely ask them to use plain English. The reason is simple. If you want people to understand and answer your questions, they should be presented as clearly and concisely as possible. If the reader has to spend an extra few moments (or minuntes in some cases) understanding what the writer wrote, then the question will very likely go unanswered.

On the other hand, if the discussion board is less formal abbreviations are often not only permitted, but down right encouraged.

There really is a simple answer to this. Look at the other posts on the board. If people are using abbreviations, then go ahead and tdo the same. If not, then don't.

Don't forget the years of finger-pointing at us computer geeks for our TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms! :-) ). Use the appropriate language for the audience. Simple.

[ctmagnus]

imo, language should lean towards the proscriptive end of things. I'm with capo on this one:

Maybe I'm mistaken, but my guess is that a post written like that will be less effective in collecting useful replies than one where the author obviously took the time to try to communicate clearly. I tend to surf blogs sometimes when I get bored - when I run into one written in such a way that it almost needs a translator, I move on. Same thing with forum posts like the one you quoted. If I'd run into it in a forum instead of your editorial piece, I would have stopped reading about half way through.

If the originater can't take the time to type out a decent request, I can't take the time to translate it.

Language tends to flow; when it gets "hacked" as in the example in Jon Westfall's post, it loses that flow, making it difficult to comprehend.

[posiedon7]

The School System Fault:

Having two daughters in High School and with many of my friends sharing the same thoughts, not enough emphasis is on actual education but rather on testing which in turn gives the school board a passing grade. I asked my daughter to name 3 famous British personas, as they are leaving for Europe for summer vacation, and she could not name one. When I asked her what they were teaching here in History, her response not anything about famous British people. She is in the gifted program and has straight A's. So I can just imagine what is covered in English/Grammar class. Her IM'ing skills impeccable. In comparison I struggled to get a C average in High School. I wish I was in that gifted program.

As for society:

For glamorizing and placing the highest degree of comparison on those that are famous for all the wrong reasons. Why would a young person in today’s society want to conform when the role models they look up to have no respect for anything else? "Respect" is now spelled "cred", which translates too how others view you by what you have done with yourself and I don’t mean in a positive and enriching manner.

Technology has definitely played a huge role in defining the next generation and if we are not careful, our future leaders will be reigning from their T-Mobile Sidekick 10's in a Cyber Cafe.

The Keep It Simple Stupid principle definately has an adverse application in this instance.

I hope I have not been to verbose on this matter. :!:

[Brad Adrian]

Language tends to flow; when it gets "hacked" as in the example in Jon Westfall's post, it loses that flow, making it difficult to comprehend.
I agree completely, but then I still cringe when I hear the word "ain't" used, and it's been legitimized through its appearance in the language's major dictionaries. I wasn't going to mention this at first (because I don't want to start down another path), but ctmagnus, I think that things like efforts to legitimize Ebonics also hacks the English language.

[Ed Hansberry]

…"please help me i realy want to buy the app if it works"

8O Now there was a time when writing like this would have been thought to be the work of an 8 year old, today however, it's common.
My 8 year old son would be offended if you attributed that mess to him.

I would never consider answering such a post. It is one thing to make some abbreviations via SMS with a limited input device, but the above is… I don't know what it is. It isn't laziness, anymore than wearing your pants 3 inches below your crack. It is just ridiculous.

[SteveHoward999]

As for society:

For glamorizing and placing the highest degree of comparison on those that are famous for all the wrong reasons. Why would a young person in today’s society want to conform when the role models they look up to have no respect for anything else? "Respect" is now spelled "cred", which translates too how others view you by what you have done with yourself and I don’t mean in a positive and enriching manner.


You were doing so well. Now you are just sounding like your mother. And grandmother, and her grandmother ... Heck even the Greeks liked to complain about how the world was going to ruin because of the youth and their lack of respect for everything.

Every generation likes to put its stamp on the world, and chooses numerous ways to do so - be it language, music (oh the devil Elvis Presley!) or hideous architecture. But somehow the world muddles on, and pot-smoking students become bank managers, lawyers and politicians (but only if they don't inhale!).

[WindWalker]

Though I cannot agree with the pile of misbegotten abbreviations that passed as a posting in the example, I have to say one thing about the management of a language: who's going to decide?

If I am not mistaken, doesn't France have an entire ministry devoted to controlling the French language? And though they can control it in France, there are still variations like the Quebec, Hatian, African and others that they have no control over. Who is willing to allow the government, or any other entity, to control the language?

Who's English would be right; ours, Australia's, or Great Britain's? We already speak 'Murican most of the time, don't we? The upper crust among the British surely frown upon our own degradation of the language.

Yeah I cringe thinking of my children typing like that, but I also let them know what is acceptable to turn in as a piece of "scholarly" work (well, as scholalrly as 11 and 7 year olds can turn in). Languages don't degrade, they evolve. Sometimes we don't like that evolution....

[darkfire07]

I feel that the dumbing down of our language has grown in the last few years. While I can understand the use of technological shorthand in situations where only limited input is available, usage in other situations now borders on the ridiculous. I have seen and tried to puzzle through many posts such as the one shown; I now skip on, preferring instead to answer someone with a problem serious enough that they will spend the necessary time to clearly and concisely define it. And while I do shorten some words when using SMS ('thru' instead of 'through', for example) I still place them in a reasonable order. I also capitalize when using SMS. :D

DF7

[Silver5]

I made a similar post on Howardforums a few weeks ago. I couldn't believe how many people posted support in the thread but was even more surprised by the number of people I offended (and I didn't write anything offensive).

I don't think these forums require perfect English. I certainly have posted an ugly one...or two, ok a few now let is go! I NEVER have written like that though. I don't understand it and I don't want to.

[duncanhbrown]

Language differentiates people. Those who care lavish more care on it; those who don't, don't. Then writers are judged as to education and social status, etc., and treated accordingly. Fair? Maybe not. But children eventually have to learn that life isn't fair, and get on with it.

You don't learn to care about language by being lectured about it. It doesn't help to tell kids to master clear and sophisticated communication because it's the right way to do it, and that what they're doing is wrong. Tell them they'll make more money and get better jobs.

Duncan H. Brown
Smartphone &amp; Pocket PC magazine
www.pocketpcmag.com

[posiedon7]

As for society:

For glamorizing and placing the highest degree of comparison on those that are famous for all the wrong reasons. Why would a young person in today’s society want to conform when the role models they look up to have no respect for anything else? "Respect" is now spelled "cred", which translates too how others view you by what you have done with yourself and I don’t mean in a positive and enriching manner.


You were doing so well. Now you are just sounding like your mother. And grandmother, and her grandmother ... Heck even the Greeks liked to complain about how the world was going to ruin because of the youth and their lack of respect for everything.

Every generation likes to put its stamp on the world, and chooses numerous ways to do so - be it language, music (oh the devil Elvis Presley!) or hideous architecture. But somehow the world muddles on, and pot-smoking students become bank managers, lawyers and politicians (but only if they don't inhale!).

Looking back on all the past generations who have wanted to put their stamp on society and comparing it to the current generation, I would have to say this has been those most damaging in this sense. While at a Home Depot recently a customers asks a Home Depot employee for assistance in picking up something out of the cart so that the cashier can ring it up, the Home Depots response, "why are you buying something you cant pick up, you should have brought a man, do you have a man, I am not hurting my back sorry" and walks off. I see that played out more and more each day. Or when you pull up to a register at the grocery store and the cashier is chewing gum and talking on a cell phone with a wired headset hidden beneath her clothes and when you ask her why she charged you twice for the Cheese Doodles she gives you a look like, Hey I am busy here why are you interrupting me.

It’s that type of behavior that is constantly rewarded and our ever accelerated and over exposed youth pick up on and mimic or worse yet actually believe in.

I am all for technology, hell I get in discussions with my girlfriend over who my girlfriend actually is, her or my XV6700. But to allow a society to be driven by a reduction in intelligence just because it’s cool is worth sounding like my parents and their parents before them.

[a4ace]

maybe in a year or two, ms word will start automatically replacing be4 with before, sum1 with someone, 2nite with tonight... :lol:

[Jon Westfall]

maybe in a year or two, ms word will start automatically replacing be4 with before, sum1 with someone, 2nite with tonight... :lol:

... and in 20 years, people will just type a varient of shorthand into Word and be amazed when it spits out perfect English. Most likely they'll be writing a rant on how they've become dependent on spell checking...

[caubeck]

I'm an English teacher with a passion for linguistics and phonetics. However, I would not condemn the abbreviation of the language that we see in mobile phones and internet posts. Not so harshly, at least.

The first reason is that in history there has never been such a high number of literate English speakers as now. Many of those who write as badly as in the example in 2006 probably wouldn't have been able to write at all in 1906 or 1856.

Secondly, this new system of dropping letters and playing with sounds will not lead to the fall of the English language. We're experiencing a time of transition. We'll see conflict and chaos at first, before "web abbreviated" or "mobile" English evolves into a mode of communication in its own right, with its rules and standards.

Anyone showing difficulty distinguishing "real English" from "mobile English" and their corresponding contexts and usage probably would never have had much of a grasp of the former anyway.

[jsp91470]

My son can barely put two words together (he's 21 months old), but I plan to teach him that nothing is more important than proper communication, and the proper form of communication at the proper time. As previous posters have noted, SMS shorthand is perfectly OK when it takes 4 taps of each button on a numeric keypad to produce a single letter. On the other hand, when you have the luxury of a full keyboard and time to really think about what you want to say, you can make your point more effectively and with more credibility if you put some thought into it. I detested English class in school, but some if it did manage to stick with me. I never send an e-mail or post a forum message without proofreading it first. I like to take the time to completely spell out what I'm trying to say. I've been criticized sometimes for being excessively verbose (and yes, this post is typical for me), but I believe that the way you communicate in writing with someone is the other person's first impression of you. It's obvious when someone has taken the time to carefully craft a written communication. It's equally obvious when someone is so lazy they wont even press the Shift key before referring to themselves (in my view, referring to oneself with a lowercase i indicates a lack of regard for oneself, as if they don't consider themselves important enough to merit a capital).
Enough of this. Now you all know why I don't use text messaging. I'd develop carpal tunnel after about 3 messages with my level of verbosity. Keep in mind that I don't actually speak this way; I was just brought up to believe that written communication is important.

[JVL]

I consider these people as uneducated rubes that got their hands on a keyboard via a credit card.
While I'm far from perfect, it is beneath me to use the language in such a maner and when it is addressed towards me I do not respond to it.

[bcries]

From the original post:The even scarier fact is that I've received essays from college freshman that include 'u', 'becuz', and similar!

I hate to be contrary, but either you have received essays from one individual named college freshman (hence your omission of the article "a"), or you have received essays from several college freshmen. Naturally your error is the small kind that could easily be caused by a mere typo, but I cannot help but point out the humour in failed object number-agreement appearing in a post about linguistic standards. :mrgreen:

Seriously though, I think that the evolution of the PC interface has led to a lower emphasis on developing typing skills among schoolchildren; the most exciting computing experiences are entirely mouse-based. I type in a manner similar to how I would speak because I was told to use Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing software as a child. Now my top speed is pushing 80 WPM. I could never imagine wanting to type "b4" because typing "before" takes me no longer... but I suspect that, sadly, the same cannot be said for the many hopeless touch-typists in my generation (I'm 23).

I have noticed, however, that I get a kind of "un-cool" feeling when using whole words and sentences to send instant messages to friends (especially those who typ lik dis ok? brb ttyl l8r). I end up feeling like John Hodgman on the "Hi, I'm a Mac / and I'm a PC" commercials; soon, I get absorbed into the teen chat shorthand language. Whether or not you think language should be descriptive, it seems inevitable that new media will beg for corresponding genres - IM being a good example thereof. Perhaps the future challenge will not be to integrate IM language into traditional correspondence, but rather to teach complex and differing sets of parlance for each medium as appropriate.

[psgny]

I, too, have a teen aged daughter who is very much into IM'ing and knows/uses all the IM shorthand. I told her that if I ever see any of them used in school work that her PC would be returned when she enters college. The only good thing IM has done is make her a very good and fast typist.

[Kevin Daly]

It is a serious threat to written English as a means of communication.
The rules of spelling and punctuation are not decoration, they are there for a reason.
While it's growing, the problem is not new: many people technically-oriented have for years unilaterally decided that they can ignore theagreed conventions of the written language. After all, how could anything outside there narrow circle of interests possibly be important?
(The same arrogance still leads people who are contemptuous of the "soft" sciences to fail to recognise that natural language translation by machine is an extremely difficult problem).
There is a related issue, which is the tendency to speak (and think) in clichés - we can thank a century and a half of marketing and propaganda for that one. But it makes life very easy for politicians.

[caubeck]

It is a serious threat to written English as a means of communication.

I beg to differ. Illiteracy in any form has never posed a threat to the survival of written English.

We need to distinguish between bad spelling (there for "their," for example) and abbreviated words (eg, L8 for "late"), these do not belong to the same category at all, though both may be a product of lazy writing in some contexts.

Bad spelling and punctuation may be annoying but the language has seen much longer periods of unstable orthography in the past, it's no more common than it ever was. In fact it's better than ever, historically speaking, and literacy is almost 100%.

Internet is a medium where we see a lot of writing. People who would never otherwise put pen to paper now have to write in order to communicate, so the small amount of illiteracy that remains in the population has suddenly become highly noticeable. It doesn't mean it wasn't there already.

And as for abbreviating words, it's evolving as all slang does, sometimes from necessity (of space in our case), sometimes as a joke, sometimes for the sake of speed or convenience. A huge amount of our modern vocabulary and expressions originated as codified or abbreviated language in just this way. As long as people know when to use it (and they will be forced to learn if not), it poses no threat to "established language."

I have contact with people from many countries. The same phenomenon is happening everywhere, it's the impact of mobile technology on the languages of the world. There will be no long-term harm.

[shirokuro]

I agree with many of the comments posted here.

I think that when you have the luxury of a full keyboard, and using a medium such as web forums, where you have time to think about and review your comments before submitting, then submitting posts such as the one showcased in this article is almost inexcusable.

Having said that, I often grant some leeway to posters in online forums, since in many cases English may not be their native language - you cannot always tell.

I think the language such as used in that post is (almost!) forgivable when using a mobile phone keypad, or some PocketPC touch keyboard - or when using some real-time media such as online chat rooms, or MMOs.

I had a colleage in the office (we are a professional engineering organisation) and he would use such language in normal emails to myself and other members of the group. It was not as extreme as in the showcase post, however it REALLY annoyed me. Having said that, no-one else in the group seemed to mind (or if they did they never said anything about it).

[BugDude10]

Consider this my vote for "it's yet another example of the decline of civilization", not unlike the popularity of the Ultimate Fighting Championship and Americal Idol... :roll:

[Jason Dunn]

I made a similar post on Howardforums a few weeks ago. I couldn't believe how many people posted support in the thread but was even more surprised by the number of people I offended (and I didn't write anything offensive).

I'm not surprised. ;-) Different communities have different standards - you'll hear very different types of English if you stand on a downtown street corner versus a quiet suburban community. In the same way, our forums here have what I believe to be a very high standard for written communication. Howard's Forums are...different. Witness the size and style "sigs" over there and you'll see it's an utterly different type of community.

[Cybrid]

Would'st thou yearn for a return to ye olden days? Aye, there's the rub. Whether 'tis better to abbreviate or not abbreviate. That is the question...
Methinks mayhap the answer is somewhat in the middle. There may evolve a new pidgin English for regular usage and a more formal one for the written word. I think many of those who wrote letters in the Victorian age would cringe at what passes as good diction today.

[Jason Dunn]

Most likely they'll be writing a rant on how they've become dependent on spell checking...

Guilty! :duh: (there are some words I simply can't seem to learn how to spell!)

[Jason Dunn]

Completely off topic, but you started it... ;-)

Consider this my vote for "it's yet another example of the decline of civilization", not unlike the popularity of the Ultimate Fighting Championship and Americal Idol... :roll:

Ahem. Sir, those are fighting words!. :lol: I happen to thoroughly enjoy the UFC, it's the first sport in years that has truly interested me. It's a pure sport, two men in a ring, unspoiled like the ridiculous mainstream sports with their prissy $100 million dollar athletes, half of them doped up. But I digress... ;-)

I agree with you about American Idol though, I never watch it and find it a tad bit silly. But hey, to each their own...I think there are worse things on TV (Fear Factor anyone?).

[Phillip Dyson]

This is an interesting thread. It actually reminded me of the time my cousin actually ridiculed me for using whole sentences and punctuation in my emails.

Luckily I never bowed to the peer pressure.

Someone earlier made mention of the great debate over teaching E-bonics in schools. It just goes to show that there are parts of the establishment that tend to give up when it comes to holding up the standard. Whatever it is.

Teaching E-bonics? No one who spoke it ever seemed to have any trouble with it.

As for the English language, as with many things in life, Natural Selection will decide what English will be in the future. Maybe it'll be "proper English" that survives. Maybe it'll be CitySpeak. Or QuickSpeak. Don't worry about communication, it'll continue. Though in what form, I cannot say.

I've often tried to take a checkpoint my perspectives on new things that pop up. In some cases I'm being intelligent. And in other cases I'm becoming the old generation that doesn't like the way the world is changing.

But for the record, my opinion about maintaining "proper" communication skills is me being intelligent. :wink:

[Steve Jordan]

One thing history has shown us is the fact that, if a new abbreviation, contraction, misspelling, etc. of a word is used often enough, it eventually gets put into the official lexicon, and soon it's okay for everyone to use it. I'm sure that some (probably not all) of the IM abbreviations, idioms, etc., will eventually end up as an acceptable part of the English language.

On the other hand, a lot of this is directly caused by limited keyboards. If IM devices (including cell phones) ever crack the "speech to text" problem, this issue will magically go away. So, if you want to stop the progression of IM-isms from entering the lexicon, get cracking on that speech-to-text thing!

[Cybrid]

On the other hand, a lot of this is directly caused by limited keyboards. If IM devices (including cell phones) ever crack the "speech to text" problem, this issue will magically go away. So, if you want to stop the progression of IM-isms from entering the lexicon, get cracking on that speech-to-text thing! Foshizzle ma nizzle. Y' tink dat gonna solve any o' dis here problem? Naw, spoken English is even more disjointed and or otherwise prone to silliness.

[Jon Westfall]

From the original post:The even scarier fact is that I've received essays from college freshman that include 'u', 'becuz', and similar!

I hate to be contrary, but either you have received essays from one individual named college freshman (hence your omission of the article "a"), or you have received essays from several college freshmen. Naturally your error is the small kind that could easily be caused by a mere typo, but I cannot help but point out the humour in failed object number-agreement appearing in a post about linguistic standards. :mrgreen:

"college freshman" was meant to be a generic name for any individual who was in college and submitted a paper to me using those spellings. I'm sure many of my offenders had more than one year in the college game and were still doing this. :mrgreen:

[Jon Westfall]

Seriously though, I think that the evolution of the PC interface has led to a lower emphasis on developing typing skills among schoolchildren; the most exciting computing experiences are entirely mouse-based. I type in a manner similar to how I would speak because I was told to use Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing software as a child. Now my top speed is pushing 80 WPM. I could never imagine wanting to type "b4" because typing "before" takes me no longer... but I suspect that, sadly, the same cannot be said for the many hopeless touch-typists in my generation (I'm 23).

I have noticed, however, that I get a kind of "un-cool" feeling when using whole words and sentences to send instant messages to friends (especially those who typ lik dis ok? brb ttyl l8r). I end up feeling like John Hodgman on the "Hi, I'm a Mac / and I'm a PC" commercials; soon, I get absorbed into the teen chat shorthand language. Whether or not you think language should be descriptive, it seems inevitable that new media will beg for corresponding genres - IM being a good example thereof. Perhaps the future challenge will not be to integrate IM language into traditional correspondence, but rather to teach complex and differing sets of parlance for each medium as appropriate.

Being:
(A) 23 Years Old
(B) An 80+ WPM Touch Typist
(C) Inundated with IM friends who insist on spelling like yours

... I feel your pain.

Do what I do, just mock the heck out of your friends until they spell better. Might not do wonders for the friendship, but you won't feel uncool and you won't have to decipher either.

[Jon Westfall]

This is an interesting thread. It actually reminded me of the time my cousin actually ridiculed me for using whole sentences and punctuation in my emails.

Luckily I never bowed to the peer pressure.

Never Give In.

Your post did remind me of one good point about this whole issue - it prevents people from impersonating each other easily. Case and point? My friend's girlfriend never uses punctuation in her text messages or IMs. She doesn't capatalize either. An apostrophe is a foreign object to her as well. So when her sister and mother took over the computer while she was away and started IMing my friend, he quickly figured out that it wasn't her!

[redraiduzz]

although I'm sometimes guilty of that type of "bastardized shorthand," I do feel -- and languish -- that the language is desecrated and butchered and ultimately threatened long term!

[heliod]

The text posted by Jon seems like a part of the multi-phase plan for creating a new all-european language based on English, which I received some time ago:

European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility.

As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy.

The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.

Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.

Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.

By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".

During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensi bl riten styl.

Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.

Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas.

If zis mad you smil, pleas pas on to oza pepl.


Now seriously, this is happening in all languages. I happen to know English, Portuguese, Spanish and Hebrew, and since the advent of SMS and IM it is happening in all of them, and I am sure that also in others. As the owner of a business, sometimes I get resumes written this way! It makes me crazy, since there is no way to differentiate a computer genius from a child.

I keep trying to write, even in SMS and IM, with the regular languages I know.... but I am afraid that some time from now people will not understand me anymore.

[natestera]

Quote from Dicken's Tale of Two Cities...Mr. Cruncher to Miss Pross in chapter 14...

"Would you do me the favour, miss, to take notice o' two promises and wows wot it is my wishes fur to record in this here crisis?"

I like spikey headed, corpse-stealing Mr. Cruncher, and his manner o' speakin by the way, and so did Dickens. Oh, and I also use the word "ain't". Note to the English Professors in this thread...save the kings english for your classroom, because most of the real world doesn't use it...

[Steve Jordan]

Foshizzle ma nizzle. Y' tink dat gonna solve any o' dis here problem? Naw, spoken English is even more disjointed and or otherwise prone to silliness.

We're talking about IM shorthand, not slang, here. But you prove my point: Although a lot of the slang you just used isn't "accepted" English yet, the words "gonna" and "o'" already are.

Dig?

[Steve Jordan]

I happen to know English, Portuguese, Spanish and Hebrew, and since the advent of SMS and IM it is happening in all of them, and I am sure that also in others. As the owner of a business, sometimes I get resumes written this way! It makes me crazy, since there is no way to differentiate a computer genius from a child.

Computer genius or not, everyone should understand that if the language of something you want to get into is established, you use it. The language of business is formal English (to get in), and sometimes colloquial English (once in). Most organizations (and the resumes required to gain access) operate under this rule, and it's understood.

If you want to learn slang, IM abbreviations, etc, it's cool. But most everyone will need to be conversant in formal speech to get ahead. How high within society would Mr. Cruncher have gone, speaking like that?

[saa001]

When I train new people for the job I do, I have to continually remind them that everyone is judged by how they sound (almost all of my job involves communicating via phone). I never had to do that until about five or six years ago. Now I have to do it for every new employee I train.

The problem is that now they don't think there is anything wrong with their speech patterns. I have to be more explicit and expalin in detail that if they sound like a ***blank*** people will respond to them in kind and you will be unable to perform their job in an efficient and PROFESSIONAL manner, Even then some of them don't see anything wrong with how they talk because while they were in school it was common and OK to talk that way.

It is very frustrating.

[Ed Hansberry]

Consider this my vote for "it's yet another example of the decline of civilization", not unlike the popularity of the Ultimate Fighting Championship and Americal Idol... :roll:
Oh.. hey hey hey! No need to go overboard on this misuse of the language now. It doesn't begin to sink to the level of reality TV. That is like comparing petty theft to mass murder. :twisted:

[Cybrid]

Foshizzle ma nizzle. Y' tink dat gonna solve any o' dis here problem? Naw, spoken English is even more disjointed and or otherwise prone to silliness.

We're talking about IM shorthand, not slang, here. But you prove my point: Although a lot of the slang you just used isn't "accepted" English yet, the words "gonna" and "o'" already are.

Dig? Get a clue, IM is Slang.
Wuz/Was is in no way shorter. And we could burn a whole new thread on 733T speak.
Dood A' jus pwnzd joo. ;)

[Steve Jordan]

Get a clue, IM is Slang.

Nope... be4, ment, 4 (for "for"), non, and sum1 aren't slang. That's text shorthand. "Yo," "ain't," "dude," "Foshizzle ma nizzle," that's slang.

Dee-nied!!! :wink:

[Jasmine]

I can see from the replies that people here are generally of the opinion that it's not the best thing that 'today's youth' don't seem to have an appreciation of (or even understanding of?) proper English. By the way, I say 'today's youth' with a smirk since I'm only in my twenties. :)

I pretty much always try to use a reasonable standard of spelling, punctuation and grammar in SMS, IM, forum posts, etc, and it really bugs me when other people don't. In fact, at best it bugs me, but sometimes it makes me wonder where they went to school and what went wrong with their education! Actually, that latter comment really just applies in situations where the person had a full keyboard. While I'm happy to tap out full punctuation in SMS, I think it's okay that not everyone is!

The other exception I'd make is when English is not the person's first language. If this is the case then I think it's unreasonable to expect them to have the same grasp of English. Having said this, I have met many people for whom English is a second or third language, and their English is so good you'd never know if it wasn't for their accent! :)

I'm certainly not an expert on English grammar, and I know that I do make errors, but I always make an effort to use English correctly. Also, I recognise that it's okay to be more casual with language in different contexts. For example, I'd cringe if I saw a hanging preposition in a formal document, whereas I'd overlook it in an SMS, IM or forum post.

I think it's true that some of us will continue to use 'full' English in SMS, IM, etc., while others (particularly 'young' people) will continue to ignore spelling and punctuation rules. This is hardly the end of the world. However, people should think hard about the context in which they are communicating, and at the very least, make sure to follow the English language rules when writing essays, job applications, doing job interviews, etc. I'm sure employers and university lecturers will be much more impressed by proper use of English than by the speed of your SMS/IM thumbs!

[Steve Jordan]

I do often find myself wondering how it is that the education system is not able to clearly and effectively impress that fact on their students...

[Jasmine]

When I train new people for the job I do, I have to continually remind them that everyone is judged by how they sound (almost all of my job involves communicating via phone). I never had to do that until about five or six years ago. Now I have to do it for every new employee I train.

The problem is that now they don't think there is anything wrong with their speech patterns. I have to be more explicit and expalin in detail that if they sound like a ***blank*** people will respond to them in kind and you will be unable to perform their job in an efficient and PROFESSIONAL manner, Even then some of them don't see anything wrong with how they talk because while they were in school it was common and OK to talk that way.

It is very frustrating.

I, too, would find this incredibly frustrating. I can understand people being slack with language in the context of SMS since there are valid reasons for keeping SMS very short (e.g. RSI of the thumbs!), but when it comes to spoken language, there really is no excuse! Except if English isn't their first language, or if they have tonsilitis/laryngitis and need to keep their vocalisation to a minimum!!

The situation you describe is something which I find even more annoying than slack language in SMS and IM. It makes me cringe when I hear people speaking in a way that sounds like they failed elementary school English. If I ever had children, which I don't plan to, but if I did, I would certainly impress upon them how important it is to have excellent written and spoken communication skills, particularly if they want to excel at university and in their careers.

Something that is encouraging though are the comments here by other PCThoughts readers. I'm glad to see that there are still some of us who believe in the importance of proper communication skills, regardless of the medium! :)

Jasmine

[Cybrid]

Get a clue, IM is Slang.

Nope... be4, ment, 4 (for "for"), non, and sum1 aren't slang. That's text shorthand. "Yo," "ain't," "dude," "Foshizzle ma nizzle," that's slang.

Dee-nied!!! :wink:Yes and no...L8ter, is 'nother keystroke equivalent to the word it replaces. IM may have direct short hand but quite a bit of IM is impossible to comprehend without knowing the dialect/slang it is derived from.
Anyway leading back to the point, speech to text would still suffer the same way. You might end up with silly dialect and slang. People are even sloppier in speech.
Caveat:
A speech to text filter/ translator that could turn.
D00d! like 1 so like totally like pwned joo.
Into:
Dear Sir,
In the spirit of good sportsmanship, I believe that I have bested you and am willing to allow you to gracefully withdraw if you would choose to do so. Better luck, next time.

[BugDude10]

Oh, and NASCAR, add that to the list. (Jeez, what a redneck, inbred, hillbilly, moron, sister-marrying, farm-animal-luvin', colossal crap in the genetic cesspool that is.)

[Ed Hansberry]

Oh, and NASCAR, add that to the list. (Jeez, what a redneck, inbred, hillbilly, moron, sister-marrying, farm-animal-luvin', colossal crap in the genetic cesspool that is.)

:rotfl: NASCAR: The WWF (http://www.wwe.com/) of the racing world.

[Brad Adrian]

...I happen to thoroughly enjoy the UFC, it's the first sport in years that has truly interested me. It's a pure sport...
Oh, right! :huh:
Nothing celebrates the human condition more than two guys in a ring, trying to beat the snot out of each other. ;)

[natestera]

jeez, even NASCAR and the UFC is trying to destroy the English language. I say we may as well go ahead and switch to Espanol. Of course the younger generation will just ruin that language as well. We could go back to grunting, but too few adjectives. How about we communicate purely in binary? That way any bits in the wrong combination to the response we expect will simply go right on the floor...

[veethree]

This is a really interesting topic to follow. However, though many have pointed to the fact that language evolves continually, something that seems to have been touched on only tangentially is that this evolution is prompted by changes in society as a whole. Two issues strike me here.

The use of shorthand in one form or another is clearly useful not only to the person sending the message but also to the one reading it. In today's world, with everything accelerated by technology, time seems to be at such a premium that people generally do not want to spend time poring over a message when they think they can grasp the essentials of it in half the time. This is not just endemic among the "modern generation" - just try producing a business report these days without an executive summary! Partly, I suppose, this is in an effort to deal with information overload but I can't help feeling something is lost in the process.

It also seems that, as messages are communicated to a wider and wider audience, the search for the lowest common denominator has led to an apparent "dumbing down" of society. In the search for ever increasing profits, for example, companies are aiming to keep their message as simple and oft stated as possible. This does not only apply to the commercial world though: it is just as obvious in the entertainment world. Don't you think that there is far more reliance on base (read: toilet) humour these days than there was a few decades ago? Just getting the simple, obvious message across seems to be the mantra of the day.

Personally, I think this is a pity: shades of meaning and subtleties in conversation (written or otherwise) are being lost. Complexity is being abandoned for the sake of volume. Rich variety in vocabulary is shunned in favour of speed of transmission of a message. I don't think it will affect adversely the ability of people to communicate effectively for a required purpose, but the nature of that required purpose seems to be a little .... lacking.

[BoxWave]

Mr. Brad Adrian and Co.,

Since I'm at work, I haven't had a chance to read through all the posts, but I can tell you this -- the comment about how the ability to communicate has tipped the scales in your favor time and time again is right on. I have noticed this trend in my life as well.

:). I don't mind a little UFC now and then either...

Wing Yew

[Ummagumma]

As for society:

For glamorizing and placing the highest degree of comparison on those that are famous for all the wrong reasons. Why would a young person in today’s society want to conform when the role models they look up to have no respect for anything else? "Respect" is now spelled "cred", which translates too how others view you by what you have done with yourself and I don’t mean in a positive and enriching manner.


You were doing so well. Now you are just sounding like your mother. And grandmother, and her grandmother ... Heck even the Greeks liked to complain about how the world was going to ruin because of the youth and their lack of respect for everything.

Every generation likes to put its stamp on the world, and chooses numerous ways to do so - be it language, music (oh the devil Elvis Presley!) or hideous architecture. But somehow the world muddles on, and pot-smoking students become bank managers, lawyers and politicians (but only if they don't inhale!).

Looking back on all the past generations who have wanted to put their stamp on society and comparing it to the current generation, I would have to say this has been those most damaging in this sense. While at a Home Depot recently a customers asks a Home Depot employee for assistance in picking up something out of the cart so that the cashier can ring it up, the Home Depots response, "why are you buying something you cant pick up, you should have brought a man, do you have a man, I am not hurting my back sorry" and walks off. I see that played out more and more each day. Or when you pull up to a register at the grocery store and the cashier is chewing gum and talking on a cell phone with a wired headset hidden beneath her clothes and when you ask her why she charged you twice for the Cheese Doodles she gives you a look like, Hey I am busy here why are you interrupting me. &lt;snip>

Well, if enough people complained to the manager and she got fired then the next one would be a bit more proactive in their work ? But then, how much is she being paid ? I think it's more of a Supply vs Demand thing, not "values" thing.

[Iain51]

How about we communicate purely in binary?

There are 10 types of people in the world...
:mrgreen: