Forever Waiting for a Firmware Update?

[Raphael Salgado]

I just got off the phone with a technical service representative at UTStarcom/Audiovox this morning, wanting to know where the much-anticipated firmware update is for the Verizon Wireless' XV6700, and when it's going to be released. All of the other carrier-branded models of the PPC-6700, which includes Sprint, Alltel, Qwest, and even Cellular South, have already received their firmware update to bring them the Messaging and Security Feature Pack (MSFP) and are available on <a href="http://www.utstar.com/pcd/Downloads.aspx">UTStarcom's website</a>.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/salgado-20060606-vzwxv6700.jpg" /><br /><br />But, in my latest conversation with UTStarcom, I have been basically told that the engineers have been sitting on a completed Verizon-branded firmware update <i>for some time now</i>, and simply been waiting for Verizon Wireless to "bless" the image in order to release it publicly. To add further insult to injury, according to the engineers, the most recent timeframe for a response is <b>3rd quarter 2006</b>. :evil: Honestly now - what in heaven's name is the hold up?! Verizon has been notorious in stalling nearly every Pocket PC Phone upgrade or fix, with the exception of their new flagship Pocket PC device, the Treo 700w. (Don't even get me started with the Samsung SPH-i700 upgrade to 2003 2nd Edition!)<!><br /><br />The UTStarcom rep wouldn't budge nor let anyone but Verizon individuals speak to the engineers (<i>"the engineers don't take calls"</i>), so getting a hold of the firmware update is out of my hands at this point. Regardless of the fact that they disable features on their phones, I'm thinking of only a few possibilities why Verizon Wireless continues to fail the Windows Mobile community: 1. their technical staff is incompetent, underpowered, or inefficient, 2. their infrastructure is so top-heavy that it takes multitudes of processes and protocols to accomplish even the most simple tasks, and/or 3. the timing of the release is mandated or influenced by the scheduling of other devices for better market penetration (i.e. releasing the 700w and Q is first priority).<br /><br />Whatever happened to the idea of users applying their own hotfixes and patches? Why can't the Windows Mobile OS be more universal, where device manufacturers simply apply their "device drivers" and software customizations after-the-fact? Windows Mobile 6 is yet on schedule - how many devices will yet again be left in the dust without an upgrade because their manufacturers will want to sell it with a "new" iteration of Pocket PCs? (My rant is slightly quelled - the Xbox 360 received a very nice <a href="http://www.xbox.com/en-US/community/news/2006/0605-springrelease.htm">Live update</a> today.) Your thoughts, please, while I practice some much needed meditation...

[signothefish]

I share your frustration, as I have been a victim of "announced" upgrades that were significantly delayed or never came. It's not just Verizon... I have learned to ignore availability dates from any carrier or device manufacturer for firmware that may never even materialize.

[Jon Westfall]

It's just another case of communication gone crazy. In this case, Verizon won't even discuss the issue with the user community. Instead, they will wield the power of "corporation", insisting that they know better and that we are simple peons that need to be told what to do, rather than suggest what the best course of action would be to the all knowing corporate gods.

Just another reason why I will not go back to Verizon - they boast that they have the best network (Which they don't), they cripple their devices (unforgiveable), and they treat their customers like dirt. The only positive thing I have to say is that their cancellation process is pretty painless, because, of course, they don't need you!

[amesskyway]

Does anyone know when T-Mo will release a firmware update for the MDA also?

[Jason Lee]

Dude! Should've gotta imate...

Or anyother device not offered through a carrier.
I learned my lesson the hard way with cingular and my sx66. I had to get a new device because the firmware update that made the builtin mail client work with my work mail server never showed up. All of the other blueangels got it...

I will never own another carrier branded device again if possible. yuck.

[AnonTelecom]

Regardless of the fact that they disable features on their phones, I'm thinking of only a few possibilities why Verizon Wireless continues to fail the Windows Mobile community: 1. their technical staff is incompetent, underpowered, or inefficient, 2. their infrastructure is so top-heavy that it takes multitudes of processes and protocols to accomplish even the most simple tasks, and/or 3. the timing of the release is mandated or influenced by the scheduling of other devices for better market penetration (i.e. releasing the 700w and Q is first priority).


While clearly the entire cellular industry leaves much to be desired in terms of quality, I have to say that Verizon continues to take the lead just how poorly they support their customers. I have relationship responsibility with each of the major carriers for all US cellphone users of a large multi-national company and would have to agree your assessments of Verizon's shortcomings.

My favorite response from them was an inquiry as to their poor support for Bluetooth. I was told by our technical account manager that they disabled features due to enterprise customer concerns about Bluetooth security issues. (Of course the fact that they get paid every time a user transfer a photo of the device using their for-fee MMS services didn't impact the decision at all! ;-) ) Unfortunately, this wasn't really a surprise. I once asked the VZW CTO during QA at a mobility conference about their premium pricing, particularly for data. He replied that they were confident that their network was worth the extra $$$ and they had no plans to adjust their pricing. This attitude was reinforced when, during recent pricing negotiations, a Sr VP compared themselves to BMW and the other carriers to Hyundai.

As far as their internal systems and personnel, I'm not surprised they are taking so long to release firmware. Our interactions with them are filled with finger-pointing, passing the buck, and inter-departmental arguments. I find their latest round of commercials amusing. You know, the ones with the massive crowd standing behind the Verizon Wireless user. It's sort of like a "how many Verizon Wireless employees does it take to make a phone call" joke.

[sdattilo]

Ahhhh, The joys of unlocked GSM. Again another reason why I too will never buy a branded phone version. I have been a PPC buying madman like yourself, Followed your blog on the k-jam till it died when you went to the universal. I then bowed from the k-jam to the m600. I then thought about Verizion for the speed of the network, but just then you went that way. Somehow I managed the patience (and lack of cash) to see how it went... I am very happy now to have stayed unlocked in the gsm sim card world. I am back with a JAMin and just waiting for what will be next...

Sorry to hear about the pain... I feel for you..... Now how long will it really be till you bite the bullet and bail on the verizion contract, pay the penalty, and get back to unlocked bliss... What is that feature you are waiting for to get from Cingular or T-Mo?

Good luck!

[burtcom]

Jeesh -- maybe I better hold off on migrating to the 6700.

I see that Alltell has this device too -- can anyone comment on Alltell's support and customer service?

[Underwater Mike]

This is why I stuck with Cingular and got an 8125, depite some spotty coverage in my area. Verizon's occasional network superiority doesn't mean a thing if you can't get help when you need it. Cingular's a long way from perfect, too, but nothing is as bad as Verizon.

(Of course, I shoudl heed my own advice: I'll probably have many tales of woe to share when my FIOS line gets installed at home later this month!)

[Janak Parekh]

This is why I stuck with Cingular and got an 8125, depite some spotty coverage in my area. Verizon's occasional network superiority doesn't mean a thing if you can't get help when you need it. Cingular's a long way from perfect, too, but nothing is as bad as Verizon.
See, I take the completely opposite position. All the support in the world is useless if you get no coverage. Verizon has the coverage and the service, and so I pay. :|

--janak

[amg]

Try waiting for a firmware update from Cingular... I've been waiting - and waiting - and waiting - for Cingular's "official" MSFP update to the 8125. At least there's xda-developers.com where somehow things circulate... :-)

[eagle63]

As if crippled Bluetooth, strict policies, and outrageous data-plan pricing wasn't enough...

[blazingwolf]

See, I take the completely opposite position. All the support in the world is useless if you get no coverage. Verizon has the coverage and the service, and so I pay. :|

--janak

I have to agree with you. Every other carrier pretty much stinks in the reception department in my area. Verizon is my only real choice.

[brianchris]

Try waiting for a firmware update from Cingular... I've been waiting - and waiting - and waiting - for Cingular's "official" MSFP update to the 8125. At least there's xda-developers.com where somehow things circulate... :-)

I was going to say the same thing.....while its a cousin (as opposed to a brother) to the 6700, the Cingular 8125 hasn't recieved its update either.......your not the only one with that device whose carrier is "sitting" on the update.

[signothefish]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but this is all the more reason to not go with a converged device right now. I just don't think it's the right time. Let the kinks get worked out and come back in a couple of years, when hardware is supported better, the robust features return, and high-speed data coverage is much better. That way you don't get locked into a service with a substandard piece of hardware to carry you through the 2-year term.

[wirelessbeachbum]

We can always hope that they accidently put it up on the vzw smithmicro site like they did for the i730... I hope they were able to include some fix on the memory card/ hang issue, I don't care too much about the messaging pack, since I left working for the borg (aka vzw) I no longer need it. My company uses hosted pop3 and my day job is still stuck in the 90's... all communication is by fax and voice mail...

As for my time working for vzw I can confirm that most decisions about release dates are controlled mostly by marketing considerations, and by cost to implement and train support staff...(data tech support not so much retail techs as they have very little training or responsibility for advanced devices.) From a cost perspective when an update is rolled out it cost quite a bit in manhours to support installations and all of the assorted nasty occurences when updating firmware.

There is a realitively small number of the data group that really know the ins and outs of the pocket pc, and the trainers (even the data specialist) mostly have a background in training and not in advanced devices. (they teach the products but only know as much as included in the prepared lessons.) Nothing against Verizon's training department they do have one of the best in the industry, however very rarely do you get a geek with the passion for the inner workings of a ppc that is also interested in working in a training department.

The group that approves data software updates is usually tasked to rank the projects by what will bring in the most revenue, as much marketing and hype that was put into the 700w it was deemed more important. And I can only assume that the i730 update was closely related to the i830 update which was needed for competative reasons with an international email solution, and of course the Q would get a bump on the list due to the "cool factor" and Moto / Microsofts desire to eliminate RIM from the equation.

Speaking of RIM anyone seen Blackberry Connect on a VZW device yet?

[Janak Parekh]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but this is all the more reason to not go with a converged device right now. I just don't think it's the right time.
I disagree. We're talking about a ROM upgrade to add MSFP. Even without that, the XV6700 and its brethren are light-years ahead of nonconverged devices.

That said, if you need things like Bluetooth headset voice dial, the Pocket PC may indeed be a bad choice. I may do up a THOUGHT on that in the near future.

That way you don't get locked into a service with a substandard piece of hardware to carry you through the 2-year term.
If you're willing to pay more, you can usually sign up to a 1-year term; that's what I do.

--janak

[szamot]

I don't even begin to comprehend your lamenting. If you know that Verizon is bad for providing upgrades for their devices then why do you bother buying from them? You are only fueling the problem. Second, if you were really crafty you could help yourself by visiting your friendly neighborhood xda-developers and see if they have a much needed remedy for your problems. Third you could always get a Palm based device and enjoy using your toy instead of forever waiting for the fixes that never come.

Then again you can always just sit and complaint and try to rally some support and pity for the poor state you are in…..but that is not going to help you now is it?


While you practice your meditation, and wait for some code scraps off of Verizon coding table, give this a thought or two.

Einstein told us, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.”

…and it that does not work – just reboot, it is Windows after all, so what do you expect?

[signothefish]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but this is all the more reason to not go with a converged device right now. I just don't think it's the right time.
I disagree. We're talking about a ROM upgrade to add MSFP. Even without that, the XV6700 and its brethren are light-years ahead of nonconverged devices.

That said, if you need things like Bluetooth headset voice dial, the Pocket PC may indeed be a bad choice. I may do up a THOUGHT on that in the near future.

That way you don't get locked into a service with a substandard piece of hardware to carry you through the 2-year term.
If you're willing to pay more, you can usually sign up to a 1-year term; that's what I do.

--janak

Obviously, MSFP is not available yet on this and many other Pocket PC phones, so we're not there yet. There is no reason to have to cough up more $ for a phone up front, and more $ each month as a result of a short term commitment. Things are changing and will be changing too quickly to warrant a long term commitment. Let the dust settle a bit, and then think about the device you want to stay married to for the next 2 years. Do a lot of research up front, and then if it already has the features and quality you're looking for, go for it.

The XV6700 is not light years ahead of nonconverged devices. I have 128MB RAM on my device, a VGA screen, dual slots, BT, WiFi, and a 400MHz processor. I bought my unit back in 2003.

I understand the reason converged devices are so hot right now... people want to be able to surf the web wirelessly. I would like to as well, but my plan is to exercise a little patience for a couple of years. By then, we may even have the BT voice dial you mentioned.

[wirelessbeachbum]

I respect your decision about getting a non converged device, it sounds like you made the correct choice for how you want to use your ppc, However when it comes to ROM upgrades on nonconverged devices you are only at the mercy of your OEM. Things can still go wrong at this level...I still own a Jornada that's capable of an upgrade but deemed not profitable by HP.

With converged devices you now include a third party (your carrier) into the upgrade scheme.

The issue with Verizon is they launched the phone (6700) after Sprint and Alltel, yet seem to be stalling the release of the upgrade.

If they didn't try to muddle up the OS so much the update would most likely be ready.

[Janak Parekh]

I don't even begin to comprehend your lamenting. If you know that Verizon is bad for providing upgrades for their devices then why do you bother buying from them? You are only fueling the problem.
Because Verizon works?

Third you could always get a Palm based device and enjoy using your toy instead of forever waiting for the fixes that never come.
I believe Raphael did initially pick up a 700w, but ditched it because of the RAM and Bluetooth troubles.

Then again you can always just sit and complaint and try to rally some support and pity for the poor state you are in…..but that is not going to help you now is it?
Well, this site, as the title suggests, is about "Daily News, Views, Rants and Raves". We freely point out that we're going to make the occasional rant. ;)

--janak

[inteller]

ah, feel the wrath of arrogant CDMA companies! This is how I felt with the PPC6600. I finally said f- all this and went with a GSM carrier so at least I have CHOICE!

[Janak Parekh]

Obviously, MSFP is not available yet on this and many other Pocket PC phones, so we're not there yet.
My point is, compared to a nonconverged device, this is moot. Even non-MSFP devices can do SMS push or timed pulls and get email reasonably fast.

There is no reason to have to cough up more $ for a phone up front, and more $ each month as a result of a short term commitment.
For Verizon, a 1-year contract implies you pay a bit more up front, but you can generally get the same plan.

The XV6700 is not light years ahead of nonconverged devices. I have 128MB RAM on my device, a VGA screen, dual slots, BT, WiFi, and a 400MHz processor. I bought my unit back in 2003.
Sorry -- I should have prefaced it with "IMHO". In terms of usability, I use my Treo 700w far more than I used my e805, which had that 128MB of RAM (and 160MB of NAND storage), 4" VGA, dual slots, WiFi, 400MHz, VGA adapter, etc. etc. I personally wouldn't go back. Of course, YMMV. I'm just trying to explain my perspective and why I make these decisions the way I do.

I understand the reason converged devices are so hot right now... people want to be able to surf the web wirelessly.
Actually, I "surf" very little, most of the time. I do use email quite heavily, and on occasion I'll use Google or Virtual Earth Mobile to look up information, and for that the 700w works great. It's also small, and by virtue of being a phone I always carry it everywhere -- more than my disconnected Pocket PCs.

I would like to as well, but my plan is to exercise a little patience for a couple of years. By then, we may even have the BT voice dial you mentioned.
Of course, you have to wait for when it's right for you.

--janak

[mmidgley]

signothefish wrote:
> all the more reason to not go with a converged device right now

Non converged devices (separate phone and pda) are also plagued with needed firmware updates that don't get delivered! Or if delivered, the firmware may be undesireable after Verizon screws it up. My brother has a flip phone on Verizon that he uses for bluetooth data. The firmware is so messed up that he has to manually get a data plan price adjustment monthly (they charge him $400+ when his usage is within his plan due to the way the phone identifies its data usage with the network). The newer firmware they have for his phone kills the bluetooth capability! What excellent service Verizon!

> Let the kinks get worked out and come back in a couple of years, when hardware is supported better, the robust features return, and high-speed data coverage is much better

It doesn't matter when you purchase your phone--the hardware, features, and data coverage/speed are always getting "much better". If you wait for the ideal hardware setup and price, you will never buy a product.

> That way you don't get locked into a service with a substandard piece of hardware to carry you through the 2-year term

Janak wrote:
> If you're willing to pay more, you can usually sign up to a 1-year term

I now own an i-mate JAMin, my first device non tied to my cell service term. It was well worth the higher price. No screwed-up bluetooth limitations, firmware updates, etc. That solves many of the technical issues and pains (but doesn't change the fact that I'm still locked into a carrier with a contract of some sort...for a few more months anyway).

> if you need things like Bluetooth headset voice dial, the Pocket PC may indeed be a bad choice

I just tried my i-mate JAMin with an iTech clip R35 a2dp/phone headset and when I tapped its phone button the JAMin started listening for voice dial... :) No registry hack needed.

wirelessbeachbum wrote:
> my day job is still stuck in the 90's... all communication is by fax and voice mail...

90's? I'd say 70's, maybe 80's. :)

m.

[Janak Parekh]

I just tried my i-mate JAMin with an iTech clip R35 a2dp/phone headset and when I tapped its phone button the JAMin started listening for voice dial... :) No registry hack needed.
Okay, let me rephrase -- the OS support for Bluetooth voice dial sucks, and it's up to individual OEMs to make sure their support is better. I think that's a scenario that should be well-supported out of the box on every Pocket PC phone. I'm glad to hear that i-mate/HTC is fixing it. :)

--janak

[szamot]

Third you could always get a Palm based device and enjoy using your toy instead of forever waiting for the fixes that never come.
I believe Raphael did initially pick up a 700w, but ditched it because of the RAM and Bluetooth troubles.


--janak[/quote]

err. I meant to say Palm Palm not WinPalm....big difference in reliability.

Ranting is not the same as whining..... Ranting I can take in stride because it can be fun, when I think of ranting I think Stalin, Lenin or that other guy with the funny mustache, when I hear whining I think 3 year old kid. Not quite the same thing.

[Janak Parekh]

err. I meant to say Palm Palm not WinPalm....big difference in reliability.
Hmm. From what I've heard, the latest PalmOS devices are actually known for their instability.

Ranting is not the same as whining.....
Well, that's your opinion. I disagree. This is a very well-placed rant, IMHO.

--janak

[alizhan]

I understand the reason converged devices are so hot right now... people want to be able to surf the web wirelessly.
Gah! I'm so tired of hearing about the wireless Web! :evil: Even the best of the converged devices are horrible at surfing the Web compared to simple computer (Opera helps, but it has its limits). I grant that a converged device is easier to carry around than even the smallest of laptops, but how many of us really need to stay attached to the Web all day long? And yet the companies act like that's the only reason anyone would want a converged device!

Some of us want a converged device because we want to carry both a phone and a PDA, but don't like looking like we're wearing Batman's old utility belt. I used to carry a phone (StarTAC 7868W, still a better phone than just about anything you can get today), a PDA (Toshiba e805, still a pretty decent PDA), and a multi-tool (Leatherman New Wave, accept no substitutes). I was bonking into doorframes and hanging up on seatbelts all over the place. Now I just carry my phone, and grumble when I need the devices I left at home.

Not bashing on you specifically, BTW; this is just a bit of a sore topic with me right now. I've been trying to find a replacement phone for a while, and I'm balking at being forced to buy a data plan I don't intend on using. :grumble:

[Janak Parekh]

StarTAC 7868W, still a better phone than just about anything you can get today
Bah, I say. ;) It was solid except for that lousy antenna. And the screen is awful small by modern standards. And the keys suck comparatively. ;) Ever use the WAP browser on the thing?

Anyway, I largely agree with the post. A PDA phone also allows you to sync/backup all your contacts and other PIM info, which is extremely useful. PDA phones are certainly useful as non-data phones. I would never get a phone today that didn't have a similar sync experience.

--janak

[alizhan]

Bah, I say. ;) It was solid except for that lousy antenna. And the screen is awful small by modern standards. And the keys suck comparatively. ;) Ever use the WAP browser on the thing?
Except for all that, it was great! :way to go: I've broken two antennas in the entire time I've had the phone, though they usually were bent at some odd angle for a long time before they finally broke off. The screen is definitely a relic of a more innocent time, I was lucky enough to get one of the early ones with decent keys, and the WAP browser was so obviously hopeless that I never bothered with it. I still get charged for it every so often, though. Oh, and the phone even locks up every so often, so that's not restricted just to modern phones. :rock on dude!:

But the reception is superb. That's mostly what I was referring to. The reception on most of the more modern phones is pretty sketchy out here in the sticks.

A PDA phone also allows you to sync/backup all your contacts and other PIM info, which is extremely useful. [...] I would never get a phone today that didn't have a similar sync experience.
My wife's lost all her contacts twice because the phone bellied up and she hadn't manually(!) copied all the numbers off of it. With how much we keep on these fool devices now, backups are a must. Hey, that sounds like a great opportunity for the cell companies to charge us for yet another basic service! :roll:

[Janak Parekh]

But the reception is superb. That's mostly what I was referring to. The reception on most of the more modern phones is pretty sketchy out here in the sticks.
I know what you mean, I was just teasing. ;) Incidentally, do you mean digital reception, or the fact the 7868W had analog? Digital reception is indeed all over the map with new phones, but I've heard some of the new phones are pretty good. My Treo falls in the "okay" category... of course, no analog.

With how much we keep on these fool devices now, backups are a must. Hey, that sounds like a great opportunity for the cell companies to charge us for yet another basic service! :roll:
Actually, I think one carrier does already offer a fee-based backup service... 8O

--janak

[alizhan]

Incidentally, do you mean digital reception, or the fact the 7868W had analog? Digital reception is indeed all over the map with new phones, but I've heard some of the new phones are pretty good.
Analog used to be vital around here, but most of the analog towers finally went digital in the past couple of years. Even now, though, I find that my 7868W gets better digital service (more bars, less clicks, etc.) than the new-fangled phones around me.

Supposedly the LG phones are some of the most receptive of the new lot. I keep hearing that they are now what Motorola used to be (i.e., first, make it work well; then, make it look cool). IME, the new Moto's sure are nifty, but they aren't very good.


Actually, I think one carrier does already offer a fee-based backup service... 8O
:grumble:

[Janak Parekh]

Actually, I think one carrier does already offer a fee-based backup service... 8O
:grumble:
Shocker: it's Verizon. ;)

www.verizonwireless.com/backupassistant

I'm glad I don't need it... :mrgreen:

--janak

[amg]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but this is all the more reason to not go with a converged device right now. I just don't think it's the right time. Let the kinks get worked out and come back in a couple of years, when hardware is supported better, the robust features return, and high-speed data coverage is much better. That way you don't get locked into a service with a substandard piece of hardware to carry you through the 2-year term.

And yet - the devices are actually quite capable and surprisingly stable. The 8125 I have works great - sure, there are things it could do better and faster, but that will always be the case. (The way technology works these days, whenever any device comes out, specs of the next one are already circulating... If we wait for the ultimate device, we'll be waiting forever...)

The 8125 is a particularly frustrating situation - the ROM upgrades that will activate all the great features and get the device performing wonderfully ARE OUT THERE - Just not from the carrier - which means that only those people who feel comfortable installing a theoretically unsupported ROM get access to the functionality. It's not a matter of a substandard device, just a carrier that hasn't gotten around to legitimizing use of its full power.

[jamisonw]

I was with Cingular for years and got the 8125 after much anticipation. I returned it a week later and switched to Verizon for the xv6700 because the 8125 was a DOG. Like five minutes to get the damn thing to start every morning. battery life was better, but the device was nearly unusable. Now Verizon is giving me other headaches, but the devices is MUCH more usable for those of us who need a little power, though battery life sucks. (I am buying a 2nd battery).

The answer is simple, no one carrier gets it all right all the time, and things change so fast that while you might find a good situation with one, that will probably change within 12 months and the grass will be greener on the other side. I love my device and am anxiously awaiting the ROM update. That said, service is better that Cingular and data speeds blow Cingular away. I can wait.

Need to change my profile to my new phone... :lol: