Moderator "rudeness"

[Steven Cedrone]

The moderaters here tend to be a little rude sometimes.

Really? Do you have specific examples of this "rudeness"? So far, the only rude comment, has been yours. :roll: If you don't have anything pertinent to add to this thread (IE: you want to sell a device to the person that started this thread) Do not post here!

Steve

[jnajera]

[MODERATOR: This post was split off from another thread]

The moderaters here tend to be a little rude sometimes.

[Steven Cedrone]

Posts split from here... (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=247471#247471)

Steve

[Kacey Green]

They're not rude they just don't beat around the bush when your posts are in violation, it's just a natural reaction to your baby being attacked (this probably has a name), I have felt they were being rude when they critisized my posts, but after I came back and looked again they were right, and they just didn't bother to add all the extra words to make it sound nice, but it certainly wasn't rude or mean.

[Empyrean]

I skim these forums quite frequently and it always annoys me when someone posts like "jnajera" without anything substantial to back it up. I always feel like they are just trying to stir things up. It is definitely not constructive.

That being said, Steven's response supports that statement a little. If you are in a position of customer service or support it is generally a no-no to react to a customer's negative comments with one of the same. I think jnajera's post leaves much to be desired but it was a statement of personal opinion. I wouldn't consider it rude. On the other hand, I think "Do not post here!" is definitely rude. But that's just how I read it.

A better response may have been:

"Do you have specific examples of a moderator being rude? It is our sincerest goal to make our users feel welcome and enjoy their stay here. In the future, please try to start a new thread for new topics as not to hijack another user's thread. Again, please cite some examples of moderator's acting rudely and we'll check into it."

That's just me winging it but I think it still get's the point across while being less inflammatory and showing concern about the feedback given. No one is perfect and this whole thread could have been started much more constructively. This type of thread *IS* probably the reason why moderators will sometimes have a knee-jerk reaction as they are being publicly dragged through the mud with no supporting evidence.

Overall, this site is great and pretty much the only place I come for PocketPC related news. This is partially because the moderators are doing a great job. Keep up the good work!

--AJ

[Steven Cedrone]

AJ,

Actually, the original comment is the direct result of a misunderstanding between myself and a buyer in the "Buy and Sell" forum. But, because this was split from the other thread, you are reading it out of context. This post was made right after I had posted about not posting "unless you had something to sell". See the third post in this thread to find the original thread. You can follow by time stamp to see the whole conversation as it developed. I decided to split these comments as I knew it would completely hijak the original thread.

Steve

[Kacey Green]

We (I anyway) sometimes get into reading only part of a split, but if you are going to reply you should at least glance at the other part of the thread fork (in this particular case I read the entire original thread after my post, but it didn't require that I update, edit or remove my post so I left it)

[jnajera]

This little episode you just pulled is a prime "example" of the stuff that goes on sometimes. Instead of deleting the post and keeping it between us, you go and start a whole new thread about it and make me look like the bad guy and put me out there so my fellow PPC comrads can bash me. I can point out a few instances of this but why would I want to. I was just stating my opinion to somebody.

[Kacey Green]

This little episode you just pulled is a prime "example" of the stuff that goes on sometimes. Instead of deleting the post and keeping it between us, you go and start a whole new thread about it and make me look like the bad guy and put me out there so my fellow PPC comrads can bash me. I can point out a few instances of this but why would I want to. I was just stating my opinion to somebody.

WOAH buddy, calm down, he only put it here instead of deleting it because he respects your oppinion, if you don't care about the statment you just made not too long ago, the drop it, he wasn't trying to make an example of you, the regularly leave posts open for further discussion, if he was making an example of you it would be in the "Hall of flame and shame", that and he had an open question to you asking for examples of how they were rude.

[jnajera]

It just made me mad the way it made me look. I did not intend to turn this into my own thread. I was just helping out another member by letting him know the way I look at things around here so he would not take it so personal.

[Steven Cedrone]

Guys! Relax! Had I just deleted the comment, there would have been an uproar about the fact that a negative comment about the moderators was deleted. In fact, jnajera, you are correct! Most of what happened in these two threads could have been taken care of with simple PM's. But, none were sent - by anyone (pleanty of fault to go around here - not just me). Misunderstandings happen, especially in this text based world here in the forums...

I suggest we all just "chalk it up to experience" and move along...

Steve

[PresBry]

I know I'm new here (relatively), but for what it's worth, I agree with jnajera.

I frequent most of the better known mobile and PPC forums on the net, and I can tell you that the Mods on this site are definitely what one might term "heavy handed" compared to others. I chalk this up to the fact that this site is not so much an "enthusiast" endeavor, as it is a revenue generating one. Unfortunate, because the difference between the two is obvious, and apparent.

I won't turn this into a pissing match by pointing out specific instances. And, although I myself have not been the subject of any of the abuse, I have witnessed a number of incidents with which I would take issue.

In fact, I personally know of one former member who rescinded his membership due to an attack by Kati.

Just my 2 cents.

[Kacey Green]

I have at least 12 crap posts here and though they got on my case I never once felt (Correction was) attacked, I was bad enough that even jason gave me a warning, but you live and learn, they weren't attacking me just letting me know that I was being less than helpful.

If anyone here has ever attacked me textually, it would be one member (who will remain nameless to protect his innocence and that fact that I want him to answer the question I'll inevitably ask him in about a weeks time if all goes well)

Edit: added a correction

[Steven Cedrone]

I know I'm new here (relatively), but for what it's worth, I agree with jnajera.

I frequent most of the better known mobile and PPC forums on the net, and I can tell you that the Mods on this site are definitely what one might term "heavy handed" compared to others.

Thanks for the input PresBry! Although we try to keep things on topic here by trying to stop the "natural" drift of a conversation, I wouldn't consider it heavy handed! However, in all fairness, I do try to look at how I've handled situations in the past and try to modify my behavior so as to not make the same mistakes twice (sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't :wink: ).

Steve

[Kati Compton]

This little episode you just pulled is a prime "example" of the stuff that goes on sometimes. Instead of deleting the post and keeping it between us, you go and start a whole new thread about it and make me look like the bad guy and put me out there so my fellow PPC comrads can bash me. I can point out a few instances of this but why would I want to. I was just stating my opinion to somebody.
We have found through experience that splitting the thread like this is *usually* the best course of action, because the majority of people who post what we consider to be argumentative posts or the like get very upset when their posts are deleted. So this technique is what we had decided on. It's not the "right" answer 100% of the time, but it is more often than not. Unfortunately, with all the work around here, it's important to just have some general guidelines for moderating and stick to them, rather than spend a half-hour on each post trying to figure out what to do about it.

[Kati Compton]

In fact, I personally know of one former member who rescinded his membership due to an attack by Kati.
Actually, no. If you're talking about the person I think you are, it was because I edited his post and removed a very detailed description that I as well as the other staff felt was not appropriate for this board.

I have rarely "attacked" anyone. I won't say "never", because I'm not perfect, and get upset when *I* am attacked, and sometimes let it get the better of me. However, more often than not, I do actually stay calm and polite even when treated rather rudely, as other staff members can attest to.

[Stephen Beesley]

Just my €0.02 and maybe a little OT, but I just wanted to say that although it cannot be doubted that PPC Thoughts and Thoughts media in general are, of course, a commercial enterprise. In my experience that has never taken away from the "community" feel of the site - especially the forums.

Sometimes moderaters and other members can indeed seem a little short or unforgiving, but that is often (IMHO) because of the difficulty of conveying subtleties in text sometimes. On top of that I can assure you that I have been to many forums on the net (I am thinking particuarly of some mobile phone and gaming forums that I visit) where the level of flaming and general rudness etc would just never be tolerated here.

[Janak Parekh]

I frequent most of the better known mobile and PPC forums on the net, and I can tell you that the Mods on this site are definitely what one might term "heavy handed" compared to others. I chalk this up to the fact that this site is not so much an "enthusiast" endeavor, as it is a revenue generating one. Unfortunate, because the difference between the two is obvious, and apparent.
It has nothing to do with being revenue-generating. There are two styles of moderation: a "minimalist" approach, and a "proactive" approach. If you contrast this site to, say Pocket PC Passion, you'll see the difference. Both have their advantages and disadvantages -- while you'll see less moderator interaction on PPCP, you'll see longer, more flamebait threads going on. There's no "right" way to do this, and we've always followed this policy from day one.

In fact, I personally know of one former member who rescinded his membership due to an attack by Kati.
You know, amongst your four posts here, you've made two vague negative-attack posts yourself, without caring to back either up. I don't mind specific criticism, but vague references like this are utterly unhelpful. Pardon me if I don't take your word at face value.

--janak

[jgrnt1]

I have to generally agree with the moderators and the way they have chosen to handle situations like this. Deleting a post often inflames the situation. However, leaving it in a thread about another topic can kill the thread.

Part of the problem, IMO, is that people will sometimes say things in forums they would not say face-to-face. There is a bit of power which stems from the perceived anonymity of the web. I sometimes find myself wanting to "let loose" and say something I probably shouldn't, because I am safely tucked away behind my PC screen. However, I try to remember that I shouldn't say anything I wouldn't say if I was standing with a group of people at a dinner party. In fact, because facial expressions, body language and vocal inflections convey so much of the intent of spoken words, we should all be even more careful when posting, since the readers of our posts do not have the benefit of the additional sensory clues.

This is not directed at the post which prompted this thread, but at the broader topic of moderator intervention.

moderator n 1: mediator 2: a presiding officer

I think the moderators at PPCT generally do a very good job of keeping things on track, courteous (or at least civil) and "PG" rated (even though I personally wouldn't mind it being a little racier).

In short (and IMO and only MO), if you wouldn't say it at dinner you shouldn't say it here. If you wouldn't say it in a room full of children, you shouldn't say it here.

[nosmohtac]

I frequent most of the better known mobile and PPC forums on the net, and I can tell you that the Mods on this site are definitely what one might term "heavy handed" compared to others. I chalk this up to the fact that this site is not so much an "enthusiast" endeavor, as it is a revenue generating one. Unfortunate, because the difference between the two is obvious, and apparent.



I don't consider the moderator's actions heavy handed at all. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and, although I've visited other forums to find information, I always come back to this site to get my daily dose of PPC news. I think it is, in great part, due to the diligence of the moderators to keep threads on topic, and to squash those posting unhelpful and inflammatory statements. IMO, this is what has made this site so successful.

[PresBry]

As the father of three, I can tell you unequivocally that this site is NOT PG-13. It is without a shade of a doubt G rated. If you don't think so, you don't have children watching G rated cartoons, and you don't know what you're talking about.

The reason I attempt to be vague, as much as possible, is twofold. One, it, to some extent, protects the identities of the people involved in the discussed instances. And two, it keeps my posts from inflaming an already volatile situation.

As far as why this site has adopted a more "proactive" approach to moderating...as I said before, it's due to the fact that this place is all about the money.

We can't have those sponsors miffed....now, can we?

Kati~You know to whom I'm referring. The guy lives three townhomes down the street from me. He's the one who told me about this site. He is a very well respected writer in the Tech community, and does a boat load of volunteer work with disabled children. I KNOW the inside story of what happened between you two. The other members here do not. In fact, one current member who spoke out against this former member, later contacted him outside of PPCT. After this current member got the FULL story, and saw the unedited post that you had changed, he agreed with the former member that you were wrong. He assumed that what you had edited, had been something else entirely.

What you did was VERY wrong. You impeded another person's first amendment rights of expression, in order to protect the revenue generating capabilities of this site. At least in that instance, you put money in front of a person's feelings and rights. PERIOD.

[jimski]

To PPCT Moderators:

Thank you for standing your ground and keeping this site one of the most pleasurable :D to visit every day.

Just thought you folks could use a big group hug :grouphug: about now.

Thank you. Really.

[Kati Compton]

In fact, one current member who spoke out against this former member, later contacted him outside of PPCT. After this current member got the FULL story, and saw the unedited post that you had changed, he agreed with the former member that you were wrong. He assumed that what you had edited, had been something else entirely.
They, and you, are welcome to disagree. However, all the admins agreed that it was out of line, not just me.

What you did was VERY wrong. You impeded another person's first amendment rights of expression, in order to protect the revenue generating capabilities of this site. At least in that instance, you put money in front of a person's feelings and rights. PERIOD.
Nope. Not true at all. I don't get paid - I don't make money. So apart from wanting the site to continue, I have no interest in the financial support of the site.

As for first amendment rights - this is not a public place, and it doesn't apply. Additionally, the site is Canadian, not American. So for both these reasons, the 1st amendment is irrelevant here.

[PresBry]

Intersting that something we (Americans) hold so dear, could be so irrelevant and mean so little here. My home is a private place, but the First Amendment applies to everyone who lives or visits here...whether we agree with them or not.

And while you disregard out of hand the values we hold so dear, you (the site) certainly are willing to take our money, aren't you?

[Tricia]

As the father of three, I can tell you unequivocally that this site is NOT PG-13. It is without a shade of a doubt G rated. If you don't think so, you don't have children watching G rated cartoons, and you don't know what you're talking about.

The reason I attempt to be vague, as much as possible, is twofold. One, it, to some extent, protects the identities of the people involved in the discussed instances. And two, it keeps my posts from inflaming an already volatile situation.

As far as why this site has adopted a more "proactive" approach to moderating...as I said before, it's due to the fact that this place is all about the money.

We can't have those sponsors miffed....now, can we?

Kati~You know to whom I'm referring. The guy lives three townhomes down the street from me. He's the one who told me about this site. He is a very well respected writer in the Tech community, and does a boat load of volunteer work with disabled children. I KNOW the inside story of what happened between you two. The other members here do not. In fact, one current member who spoke out against this former member, later contacted him outside of PPCT. After this current member got the FULL story, and saw the unedited post that you had changed, he agreed with the former member that you were wrong. He assumed that what you had edited, had been something else entirely.

What you did was VERY wrong. You impeded another person's first amendment rights of expression, in order to protect the revenue generating capabilities of this site. At least in that instance, you put money in front of a person's feelings and rights. PERIOD.

what did he say that was the prblem and was so important that he didnt want to be a subscriber?

[Kati Compton]

Intersting that something we (Americans) hold so dear, could be so irrelevant and mean so little here. My home is a private place, but the First Amendment applies to everyone who lives or visits here...whether we agree with them or not.

And while you disregard out of hand the values we hold so dear, you (the site) certainly are willing to take our money, aren't you?
I should have said the first amendment argument, sorry.

But regardless, people can say that the latest PPC sucks because of some reason or another, but they can't swear or use inappropriate imagery. We like to have people visit and contribute to the site, whether they subscribe or not. But if you feel so strongly about this issue, you may wish to consider finding a site that moderates more in line with your views, as PPCT is not going to change the way it is moderated.

[PresBry]

what did he say that was the prblem and was so important that he didnt want to be a subscriber?

He resigned because he felt he no longer fit in as a member, and as a result didn't belong here any longer. (at least, that's the way he described it to me)

As far as what was in the post, if you are interested in seeing the original post, PM me, and I will forward it to you.

[surur]

I hesitate a bit to enter the fray, as I believe the mods, due to the community nature of the site, can be very protective of it, but I find that Jason can be very, very sensitive at times, to statements which most people would not find offensive. The things he are particularly sensitive about usually involve the revenue stream of the site, e.g ad-blockers etc. While this is understandable, it does demonstrate how seriously he takes this site as a commercial venture. I think this is also reflected in the mods he chooses and their philosophy.

My 2c.

Surur

[Kati Compton]

I hesitate a bit to enter the fray, as I believe the mods, due to the community nature of the site, can be very protective of it, but I find that Jason can be very, very sensitive at times, to statements which most people would not find offensive. The things he are particularly sensitive about usually involve the revenue stream of the site, e.g ad-blockers etc. While this is understandable, it does demonstrate how seriously he takes this site as a commercial venture. I think this is also reflected in the mods he chooses and their philosophy.
Now we're off topic... Let's keep the criticisms to the moderators. ;)

[PresBry]

But if you feel so strongly about this issue, you may wish to consider finding a site that moderates more in line with your views, as PPCT is not going to change the way it is moderated.

Ahh, yes...inflexibility. The true mark of the tyrant.

Kati, are you asking me to leave? Because if you are, two marks on the side of your gun would be quite impressive.

Soon you may have a paradise where there is no free thought, no dissension, ....and no independent opinion. At least not any that gets expressed (if you wanna be able to hang around)

[socrates63]

Intersting that something we (Americans) hold so dear, could be so irrelevant and mean so little here...And while you disregard out of hand the values we hold so dear, you (the site) certainly are willing to take our money, aren't you?
I'm American but what does American values have anything to do with a Canadian web site?

And what's this about taking money? Last I checked, this web site didn't require dues to access its contents or participate. Unless your PPCT membership icon is hidden, it looks like both of us are not paying members of PPCT so what are you talking about?

Is it me or are you not making any sense? :?

In any case, this whole mess started because of a misunderstanding and the parties involved have had their say. This thread should be locked.

[PPCRules]

I'd like to say I appreciate the moderator philosophy chosen here, and this thread is the perfect example of why I feel that way. Seeing that there are people like this amongst us, it's easy to realize how quickly every thread would degrade if there were no controls in place. I've seen that happen elsewhere and that's why I don't frequent certain other sites. (I was looking at this guy's other posts and noticed his debut post; he came in here with chips on his shoulder.) Anyway, keep up the good, ususally thankless, work, all you mods (I'm not paid either).

[PresBry]

I'm American but what does American values have anything to do with a Canadian web site?

And what's this about taking money? Last I checked, this web site didn't require dues to access its contents or participate.

I said nothing at all about them requiring anything. I said they were willing to accept it.

[GoldKey]

I've always felt the moderators here do an excellent job. One of the most impressive things I have found is that they don't delete posts, but instead move them to a new thread. It would be much easier to delete these things so no one else sees them for discussion. I run the discussion forums for my Homeowners Association website (of which I am the VP), and have modeled much of how I moderate that board after what I have observed here.

[GoldKey]

I said nothing at all about them requiring anything. I said they were willing to accept it.

Saying willing to accept it and willing to take it really imply to different things and you said take, not accept.

[PresBry]

I said nothing at all about them requiring anything. I said they were willing to accept it.

Saying willing to accept it and willing to take it really imply to different things and you said take, not accept.

How's this:

"They are willing to facilitate a transfer of wealth from a party with whom they have significant differences...to themselves".


Something I personally would not do.

[Tricia]

this is what the guy said - pls dont delete!

"I'm so ecstatic, that if it wasn't highly inappropriate, I'd fly out there, and kiss their puckered little brown orifices".

eeeewww thats grody. not sure if i think it should be deleted but its gross. i dont see why the guy was so mad it got edited, tho. its just a butt description.

[Kati Compton]

But if you feel so strongly about this issue, you may wish to consider finding a site that moderates more in line with your views, as PPCT is not going to change the way it is moderated.

Ahh, yes...inflexibility. The true mark of the tyrant.
Even moderating by popular vote wouldn't necessarily get you the results you want. Seems like a number of people here *generally* agree with how we do it.

Kati, are you asking me to leave? Because if you are, two marks on the side of your gun would be quite impressive.
Nope. Just pointing out that if *you* are unhappy here, maybe *you* might want to visit a forum more in line with your views on moderation. If I am at a site that makes me happy, I leave and go to a different site. Rather than waste my time somewhere I don't like.

[GoldKey]

I said nothing at all about them requiring anything. I said they were willing to accept it.

Saying willing to accept it and willing to take it really imply to different things and you said take, not accept.

How's this:

"They are willing to facilitate a transfer of wealth from a party with whom they have significant differences...to themselves".


Something I personally would not do.

Just to use your own logic, every company would be guilty of this. Every company has facilitated a way for others to transfer wealth to them. Since everyone cannot possibly agree with every company, therefore they are all wrong? If I disagree with a company, I don't have to give them my money. If I do, even though I disagree with them, then it is my fault, not theirs.

[Kati Compton]

In any case, this whole mess started because of a misunderstanding and the parties involved have had their say. This thread should be locked.
Yes. I was leaving it open for a while hoping we could come to an agreement to disagree, but that does not seem to be happening. Plus, locking it right away is generally bad moderation on a thread complaining about moderating. But I will be locking it shortly, as the thread has outlived its usefulness.

[Kati Compton]

this is what the guy said - pls dont delete!

I'll leave it because it's what this whole argument has been about. A butt description.

However, *please* don't publicly post private PMs unless in the PM the person gives you permission. Repeated offenses could result in your account being locked.

[Jason Dunn]

Whoa...everyone relax! :-) Let's keep in mind that our moderators are volunteers, not paid employees, so let's treat them with a little respect ok? They're here because they enjoy Pocket PCs, and especially being a part of this community. They're your peers. :-)

PresBry, you're entitled to express your opinion, but I personally think you're so far off base you're on another planet. ;-) But hey, you're welcome to express that opinion in the same way that I can disagree with it. Based on looking at your IP address, I have to say I'm a little dubious about how legitimate your complaints are, because you've posted under other names here and seem to have an axe to grind against a certain developer, and aren't above using a second identity to do so. So I don't think your comments are very fair, or un-biased, but I'll address them anyway...

First, you say that these are heavily moderated forums, like that's a bad thing. For every complaint like yours, I get ten compliments from people saying that these are the most polite and helpful forums they've ever used. If you've got a big city and you want people to feel safe, you need some "law enforcement", right? In the absence of law, chaos reigns, and chaos doesn't make for a useful, helpful community. Our moderators aren't "cops" - they're helpful people who guide the community, and occasionally step in when people do things they shouldn't. I believe the success of our forums are in large part due to our moderators, because they help to create an environment where people can post without fear of being attacked, and ultimately that's how you gauge the success of a community: how much people get involved.

Anyway, as to you other points, I'll just say that I disagree and find it generally insulting that you think we moderate this site differently because it's "for profit" rather than being a "profitless" site. Profitless sites either scale up and become profitable, or they get wiped out. I chose to keep things going here, but that meant trying to eek some $$$ out of it rather than see it fade away...

[Kati Compton]

Okay - the statement in question is available on this thread to read if anyone is curious in Tricia's post, which I left up for reasons I already explained.

I am stepping aside (voluntarily) as moderator on this thread, in case anyone feels that I shouldn't moderate a thread complaining about me. ;)

Jason Dunn is now in charge of this thread.

[Jason Dunn]

Wow, things really blew up here since I started working on my post a few hours ago (I'm one of those multi-tasking types). I think I see what's going on here (and what certain people are trying to accomplish, but I'll have to get back to this thread later after I take care of some things.

[Don't Panic!]

Hi I'm a moderator from Pocket PC Pasison and I'd just like to say that the folks over here are doing a great job.

I'd like to address that First Ammendment dodge most flamers use to justify their posts. Here are some examples. You can't run around in a movie theater yelling fire without being arrested, You can't accuse someone falsely of a crime without being sued., By doing those things you are exercising your first ammendment rights but the law catches up with you eventually.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse even if the law is question is not codified to address every single possible event or written in stone.

I delete posts regularly over at pPCp. Sometimes even whole threads.I guess that makes me "Rude" also.

Thank you for your time, be nice to everbody and if you really want to exercise your freedom of speech create your own website. Who knows, someone might even actually read it. :wink:

Robert (Don't Panic!) Boyd

[Ripper014]

Ok.. I guess I will throw in my opinion since everyone else has. I too feel that the moderators here are uneven in the way the handle the threads... Many are more heavy handed in dealing with issues than others... and by the way they justify their reasoning, seem to enjoy the little power they have.

I realize that those that do this service are not paid... at least directly... but perhaps all your moderators should recieve some training in customer service. Since this and other forums are only going to stay alive as long as people continue to visit them. I guess what I am saying is that this site is only viable as long as it is supported by its visitors...

I come here and to other sites to gather information and to help those that need assistance. I do not come here to be talked down to by those that control the forums... I don't wish to name names... as I would consider it unproductive... Lets try not to be so hard in controlling what is being discussed in the forums as long as it pretains to the PocketPC world... and see where it takes us. Just because you don't like what is being said doesn not mean that it is not true. And this forum is all about sharing information isn't it...???

[Janak Parekh]

I realize that those that do this service are not paid... at least directly... but perhaps all your moderators should recieve some training in customer service.
I've read this point a few times, and just to clear things up: this is not like customer service -- people say things on forums they don't say anywhere else. There is no customer service equivalent to "banning trolls" or deleting posts.

Since this and other forums are only going to stay alive as long as people continue to visit them. I guess what I am saying is that this site is only viable as long as it is supported by its visitors...
From the vast majority of visitors I've heard, people are very happy with the moderation on the site. If you have constructive feedback as to how you feel moderation can be done better, email the moderators privately -- I'm sure they'd be happy to hear from you. I know I occasionally converse with them about moderation issues. There's no "right" or "wrong", so it's very difficult.

I come here and to other sites to gather information and to help those that need assistance. I do not come here to be talked down to by those that control the forums... I don't wish to name names... as I would consider it unproductive...
Again, vague references like this is not going to help. If you don't want to discuss it in public, fine. But contact the moderators if you feel something specifically wrong is being done.

--janak

[Kati Compton]

I realize that those that do this service are not paid... at least directly... but perhaps all your moderators should recieve some training in customer service. Since this and other forums are only going to stay alive as long as people continue to visit them. I guess what I am saying is that this site is only viable as long as it is supported by its visitors...
Actually, I think we have a pretty good track record. No one can be perfect all the time, but we are generally polite even when insulted. So, for example, right now some of the users are saying that despite all the hours we devote to trying to moderate well, that we're doing a poor job. What would be the natural way to react? *Most* people would react unfavorably - it's only natural. But, because we are moderators, we get upset but keep the posts reasonable. There's a lot of tongue-biting involved in moderating.

So, we say "please don't cross-post" to all 130 people a year that cross-post, rather than the usual forum respose of "you idiot, cross-posting is l4m3!" Again, I can't guarantee we've NEVER been rude about that - we probably have at some point or another around cross-posting incident #126. But so would anyone, really.

I come here and to other sites to gather information and to help those that need assistance. I do not come here to be talked down to by those that control the forums... I don't wish to name names... as I would consider it unproductive...
If you've felt "talked-down to", I apologize. We certainly don't intend to do that (most of the time). One thing that can be a problem is that when moderating we frequently post messages *quickly*, which can generally make them somewhat curt sounding. But with all those posts to go through every day, there's just not the time for in-depth explanations of all of the reasoning behind everything.

One thing that I will mention, though, and I'm not in any way saying that this applies to you in particular, is that more often than most people realize, users are rude to us as moderators before we've done anything. This is generally unintentional I assume, and is just that people don't always go back and read their posts and how they sound. So maybe we move a post from the iPaq forum to the Just Chattin' forum, and the poster freaks out and says "You shouldn't move my post! What gives you the right to move my post???"

The reason for moving the post was just so that the proper people would READ it, not just to excercise our "powers" on the board. The user could have simply said "I thought I posted in the right place, why was my post moved?" But for some reason, in text, people are more inclined to write their exact gut reaction instead of what they might say (more politely) in an "in-person" conversation.

So, sometimes after being insulted by a user, we might bark back a bit. Of course, we can always work to improve ourselves, and we do. But it's not just the moderators that need to be polite to make a forum work.[/quote]

Lets try not to be so hard in controlling what is being discussed in the forums as long as it pretains to the PocketPC world... and see where it takes us. Just because you don't like what is being said doesn not mean that it is not true. And this forum is all about sharing information isn't it...???
If there's something that's *factually* true that you feel has been "removed" by a moderator, feel free to write email to moderator at pocketpcthoughts.com and we'll look into it. I, personally, cannot recall anything that we've removed that is factually true unless it was embedded in an argumentative post or completely unrelated to PPCs.

If it's an *opinion* that you feel has been violated, and you feel that it was stated politely (even if it's a negative opinion), we can also look into that. We don't try to keep anyone from saying something negative about anything (even the moderators, as you see here). But those comments must be made in a polite manner, not insulting.

"Those a-holes stole my money! I'm going to ****ing kill them and fry their ******** after I rip off their ******* eyebrows!"

vs.

"Beware of GenericWebStore. They charged my credit card, refused to send me my lawn flamingoes, and bought 40 gallons of jello on my card!"

Also look at the differences in statements within this thread. At one end of the scale we have comments like "I think that the moderators moderate too much.", which we can discuss rationally and the reasons behind the way we moderate. Then we have comments that, while not quite this bad, tend strongly towards "They're on a power trip and they hate everyone and don't let anyone say anything ever and they even beat my grandmother and ate my hamster!"

See enough of the second type of comment, and it's difficult for *anyone* to stay polite in response.

[Kati Compton]

I come here and to other sites to gather information and to help those that need assistance. I do not come here to be talked down to by those that control the forums... I don't wish to name names... as I would consider it unproductive...
Again, vague references like this is not going to help. If you don't want to discuss it in public, fine. But contact the moderators if you feel something specifically wrong is being done.
Or, I might add, that if you disagree with a moderation issue but don't want to talk about it with a moderator because you think we're the problem, you could always email Jason to discuss the issue. ;)

[dh]

Here's a better solution. If you like the site and the way the forums are run - stay and read them.

If you don't like the way things are - go away and read something else.

Simple really. :lol:

[Pat Logsdon]

I realize that those that do this service are not paid... at least directly...
Or indirectly.

but perhaps all your moderators should recieve some training in customer service.
I disagree. The moderators take a disproportionate amount of abuse simply because they're moderators, and people don't like being told that they're out of line. This is a pleasant place to be due in large part to their efforts in keeping it that way, not the other way around. I've been involved in non-moderated forums before, and I'll take here, thanks. I think they do an awesome job of customer service, and if I had to deal with even 1/10th the amount of abuse they do, I wouldn't be nearly as nice as they are day in and day out. They perform a necessary service, and I think they do a stellar job.

Lets try not to be so hard in controlling what is being discussed in the forums as long as it pretains to the PocketPC world... and see where it takes us. Just because you don't like what is being said doesn not mean that it is not true.
"Like" and "true" don't always enter into the equation. If what is said will do nothing but degenerate into a flamefest, which will cause feelings to get hurt and people to stop visiting, that should be nipped in the bud, don't you think? I think Spock put it best: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." :mrgreen: Moderators need to keep the needs of the whole community in mind, and sometimes that's at odds with people who think they have the right to inflict themselves on others.

[Ripper014]

Well since dh offered and it seems to be the consensus of those here.. maybe it is time I moved on and found another board to frequent. I'll have to think that one over...

As far as using the excuse that they were rude to me first... Well I don't buy it... as a moderator... one would hope that you are better people than the rest of us... and that is why you are in the position you are in.

And I disagree... you are basically in customer service... or a better term might be community service... either way... you have choosen to secure this position... and there is a certain sacrifice that you have give in taking it. And a lot of that is having to deal with difficult people with out escalating the situation...

Yes I do feel that many of the moderators here feel that they are somehow better or smarter... how do you know that those that were unhappy with the forums just didn't take your advice and stopped coming... it seems that the forums have not been as active as they once were...

Not trying to start anything here... just giving my opinion... it seems anytime someone says anything that is against the establishment there are many that are quick to react...

I think that the moderators are to close to the subject to be responding.. and it would be better served to let the community chime in...

[Jonathon Watkins]

Intersting that something we (Americans) hold so dear...?

We who? "We" are a collection of individuals from all around the world, as this "Where are we all located? (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24790&start=0)" thread shows

This is a global site. 8)

And while you disregard out of hand the values we hold so dear, you (the site) certainly are willing to take our money, aren't you?

If you wish to support this site, you can show that practically by buying a subscription, like I did. However you don't *need* to do. It's just that a lot of people including me like what we have going here, and choose to. Site hosting, bandwidth, infrastructure etc. isn't free. Jason needs to eat too. :)

I like moderated forums. The one here is a thoughtfully and open, yet safe place to post, ask questions, get answers and genrally hang out. :mrgreen:

I think you are being extremely rude and obnoxious to very hard working folks who are honestly trying to do their bit to do their jobs in the best way possible. Moderating is a delicate balancing act, and having seen behind the scenes, I can say there is often a lot of thought and care to get it exactly right. :werenotworthy:

I have great respect for the Moderaters here. They don't get it right *every* time, but they are getting close to it. :wink:

[Jonathon Watkins]

Well since dh offered and it seems to be the consensus of those here.. maybe it is time I moved on and found another board to frequent. I'll have to think that one over......

He was not offering. It's just that each of us needs to find their own place. Moderated forums suit some folks, not others.

As far as using the excuse that they were rude to me first... Well I don't buy it... as a moderator... one would hope that you are better people than the rest of us... and that is why you are in the position you are in....

Better people? Where did you get that one from? The mods have the time and inclination to do a hard and thankless job? They were not chosen for their 'saintliness'. :angel: However, I honestly think they are a lot more polite and patient than I would be.

And I disagree... you are basically in customer service... or a better term might be community service... either way... you have chosen to secure this position... and there is a certain sacrifice that you have give in taking it. And a lot of that is having to deal with difficult people with out escalating the situation.

And they *usually* (just about every time I have seen) do handle difficult people without trying to escalate the situation. However, folks can get angry about the oddest things.....

Yes I do feel that many of the moderators here feel that they are somehow better or smarter... how do you know that those that were unhappy with the forums just didn't take your advice and stopped coming... it seems that the forums have not been as active as they once were...

TOTALLY disagree with you there old bean! :wink: That's not the mods I know.

Not trying to start anything here... just giving my opinion... it seems anytime someone says anything that is against the establishment there are many that are quick to react...

This is a thoughts and opinions site. When people personally attach someone, it's hard not to react. The Mods quick reactions is part of why the forums work so well.

I think that the moderators are to close to the subject to be responding.. and it would be better served to let the community chime in...

And they are. :wink:

Hover, it's a bit odd to talk about the mod 'behind their backs' isn't it? If someone has a correction or advice for the mods, best to give it personally, no?

[Jason Dunn]

As far as using the excuse that they were rude to me first... Well I don't buy it... as a moderator... one would hope that you are better people than the rest of us... and that is why you are in the position you are in.

The mods have admitted that they're not perfect 100% of the time, yet you seem to expect them to be. The reason why they were asked to be moderators is that in watching Steve and Kati interact in the community, they seemed level headed, respected, and dedicated enough to the community to stick around when things got tough (like they are now because of a few individuals). I find it deeply ironic that you can criticize them for not being "better people" yet not rise to the occasion yourself and extent them the grace in understanding that they cannot be calm, cool, and collected 100% of the time when people are being rude towards them.

...it seems anytime someone says anything that is against the establishment there are many that are quick to react...

It's because people like the site and the community here. When you like something, and someone attacks it, you tend to defend it. Does this behaviour surprise you? It shouldn't - it's normal and quite healthy. :-)

I think that the moderators are to close to the subject to be responding.. and it would be better served to let the community chime in...

I'd say you and the others are chiming in just fine - we unlocked this thread so you could just that.

[Kati Compton]

as a moderator... one would hope that you are better people than the rest of us... and that is why you are in the position you are in.

<snip>

Yes I do feel that many of the moderators here feel that they are somehow better or smarter...
So am I supposed to be better but not feel I am? ;)

I feel that I am more level-headed than *some* people (not thinking anyone in particular here). I think the fact that I haven't insulted anyone in this thread (that I recall, anyway) supports this. That doesn't mean I feel I'm better than everyone else, or even better than most. But I do think I try harder than a lot of other people to stay civil.

I can't count the number of times I've moderated a thread and I've gotten an IM from another staff member saying that *they* wouldn't have been nearly as polite.

I do my best here, and for most, that's good enough. If it isn't for you, then I'm sorry, but there's nothing that I can do about it. I'm certainly not going to resign. And if I change the way I moderate to suit what some vocal users have asked for, the board would become less pleasant for a larger segment of people, and that's not something I'm willing to do.

I think that the moderators are to close to the subject to be responding.. and it would be better served to let the community chime in...
We're supposed to watch people criticize us and not defend ourselves?

And you're telling me I shouldn't be posting? That sounds exactly like what you don't want in a board - heavy-handed moderation, but this time by you deciding who should and should not post in this thread.

Anyway, as the thread is open, the community is welcome to respond. My posting doesn't in any way prevent that. ;)

[Jason Dunn]

People have the choice of reacting one of two ways when they are contacted by a moderator about something they did, or when their post is moved/deleted:

1) Humbly understand that the volunteers who moderate the site have a firm grasp of what is accepted and what is not accepted in the community, and modify their behaviour to meet with the norms of that community.

2) Arrogantly assume that they know more than the moderator about what is appropriate and begin to rant about freedom of speech and other irrelevant issues. This site is not paid for by government funding, and hence the only freedom of speed is what I allow by having forums in the first place. If I wanted to have a site without any freedom of expression, I'd take down the forums. I'd never do that of course - community is what this site is all about - but it's important to understand why the freedom to express your thoughts, within the boundaries we've set out, is a privilege, not a right.

I've fallen into #2 more than once in my life (a certain Lockergnome newsgroup spat comes to mind :oops:), but I always strive for #1. Communities need rules in order to be friendly places to interact with others. When you violate those rules, on purpose or accidentally, the caretakers of that community will step in to tell you about it. At that point in time you have the choice between #1 and #2. Most people chose #1, which is why we have the great community we have here. Some people chose #2, and ultimately they don't last long in ANY onlime community, because they assume they have the right to act in whatever way they wish.

[dh]

I'm certainly not going to resign. And if I change the way I moderate to suit what some vocal users have asked for, the board would become less pleasant for a larger segment of people, and that's not something I'm willing to do.
Don't you dare even think about it, young lady! :bad-words:
Seriously, you and Steve do a great job making this a nice community to hang around in. Heck, I don't even use my PPC much these days, but I still like to be here with all you folks.
Come to think of it, I used to be here when I was a Palm user as well. I must be really anti-establishment.

[Janak Parekh]

People have the choice of reacting one of two ways when they are contacted by a moderator about something they did, or when their post is moved/deleted:

1) Humbly understand that the volunteers who moderate the site have a firm grasp of what is accepted and what is not accepted in the community, and modify their behaviour to meet with the norms of that community.
Let me chime in, though, that if you honestly, truly feel that the moderators didn't grasp a situation or acted in error, a courteous, constructive PM/email to them will go a long way. They truly care about the site and are always quick to action not only when something gets out of control, but also when there's a situation that they feel wasn't handled ideally. It'll certainly help more than making vague assertions. I've occasionally disagreed with Steve or Kati and have found them to be very receptive to others' opinions. (Note that this doesn't mean that they're going to drastically change their moderating style. If someone can't trust their gut when moderating, it makes the job nearly impossible.)

--janak

[jake080]

I didnt read all the responces, but in my experiences here, i only felt violated :), but really they are just keeping the peace. Doing great too, maybe one day AFTER i have a few ppcs and more time and a greater PPCT history, ill be a modder too :) thats like a fantasy, but yeah, maybe ill earn it someday!

Keep up the great "rudeness", it keeps this place clean and pure ;)
~Jake

[Zack Mahdavi]

I'd like to chime in now..

Back in high school (and during the summer of my first two years in college), I used to work in guest service (aka customer service) at a SuperTarget. I worked in guest service for a good 2 years, after being a cashier for a year and a half.

During my time in guest service, Target made a drastic change to their return policy. The new policy was, "No Receipt, No Refund." In other words, if you didn't have your receipt or didn't pay by a method where we could track down your receipt, then we couldn't return or exchange your item. In other words, instead of giving customers store credits, we didn't give them anything at all.

I understand why Target had to change their return policy. People would buy stuff from etailers like Amazon.com and then decide that they don't want the item. Instead of mailing it back, they'd save on shipping costs by pretending that they bought it from Target. Yes, it was completely dishonest.

Some customers found it very hard to accept this return policy. It's hard to have people yell at you while maintaining a calm manner at the same time. I remember once, this guy was trying to return an opened software package. At Target, we don't accept open software at all (which make sense), but when I told this guy we couldn't give him a refund, he became so mad. He started cussing me out, and he even put the cherry on top by throwing in a racist joke (I'm Indian). Anyway, I was really angry at that point -- I just wanted to blow up in this guy's face. I mean, is it really worth giving up any dignity you might have just because a store won't accept your open software package? Is it really worth yelling at some high schooler who's just trying to earn some money on the side?

In the end, I told the guy, "Sir, you need to leave, or we'll let security deal with this problem." Sure enough, he did some more yelling and left. Later on, I was commended for the way I handled the situation.

I think there's a lot of people here on these forums that don't take other people's feeling into account when they post. They post out of anger, annoyance, or they may just even want to start a fight. I think it's important to post when you are feeling level-headed. If you had a bad day at work, then don't respond to posts until you've taken out some time to relax. Don't use the forums as a stress-ball to take out your stress on. You'll only ruin a community that you love.

I can relate to the way the moderators are being attacked in this topic. As it was mentioned earlier, moderating can be a very thankless job (just like any sort of customer service job). It's important to understand that when you attack a moderator, you're attacking a person, not some artificial intelligence machine developed by a CS graduate student during his free time.

I personally think the moderators are handling the ugly situations very well. When I read how some people attack the moderators on these forums, I wonder if I could have handled the situation any better. I think 99% of the time, I couldn't have done anything better to improve the situation.

So to all the moderators on this site, thanks for doing such a wonderful job! I'm sure more than 95% of us appreciate the effort you all put into this site!

Ripper014, please do not leave these forums. You know the best way to handle any problems you have (by email), so please take advantage of it and express your troubles.

Oh, and one more thing before I end this terribly long post... I like the way the moderators handle the situations on these forums. I hate ugly forums.. if you want to see ugly forums, go visit Slashdot's... great news site, but disgusting forums.. :)[/i]

[Altaman]

I don't post in the forums much and I am not a paying member, but will tell you that PPCT is one of the top two sites on my list that I visit daily (before and after work)! Sorry it is not #1 YET! :) !

I enjoy reading the more than writing in them, unless I have something that I feel is beneficial to say and I guess this is one of those times :D

I do not feel that the moderators are being heavy handed in any way, shape or form...customer service/community service as someone called it is definately a fine balancing act and you can be sure that someone is not going to be happy with something. I work as a supervisor for a large crown corporation and can tell you that unless you are on the other end of the stick, you really don't know what it is like.

When someone is behind a keyboard or on a telephone they can be very abusive in ways that they never would in person and I can say that with experience. I have had customers call me and be extremely abusive on the phone only to be very polite in person.

As to Jason making money and/or helping to pay the bills for the site, god forbid! And as has been pointed out before, you have a choice to be a financial contributing member or not so that is a personal choice you make and by not you still have access to virtually everything on the site.

Finally thanks for a fine site and I look forward to belonging for some time to come.

Alt

[dh]

I don't post in the forums much and I am not a paying member, but will tell you that PPCT is one of the top two sites on my list that I visit daily (before and after work)! Sorry it is not #1 YET! :)
Just out of interest, which site do you like more?
For me, I like this one best with Zaurus User Group next.
You are absolutely right, you have access to just about everything here without having to be a paid subscriber which is great. For me, it's worth the price of subscription just to switch off the adverts. I'm reminded of this everytime I go to Brighthand. :D

[Altaman]

Just out of interest, which site do you like more?
For me, I like this one best with Zaurus User Group next. :D

Well for me Brighthand is my favorite, only because it has a forum dedicated to the Toshiba E80x series so I do not have to weed thru the other models to get E80x specific information. That is basically it...in order of preference my favs would be:

1) Brighthand
2) PocketPCThoughts
3) PDACorps
4) GPSPassion

alt

Ya know what, think I will put some $$ towards PPCT just so I can support a GREAT CANADIAN site! :) There 1 Yr Full subscription paid in full 8)

[dh]

Just out of interest, which site do you like more?
For me, I like this one best with Zaurus User Group next. :D

Well for me Brighthand is my favorite, only because it has a forum dedicated to the Toshiba E80x series so I do not have to weed thru the other models to get E80x specific information. That is basically it...in order of preference my favs would be:

1) Brighthand
2) PocketPCThoughts
3) PDACorps
4) GPSPassion

alt

Ya know what, think I will put some $$ towards PPCT just so I can support a GREAT CANADIAN site! :) There 1 Yr Full subscription paid in full 8)
I can see that as a Toshiba 805 owner you would like Brighthand. They do have a great forum for that device. Do you visit the forums at www.pocketpctools as well? They have a good community for VGA owners.

[Altaman]

Yep I goto PPCTools to get updates for MyVGA and TTM, but have never really looked at their forums much. For information I think that Brighthand and PPCT are the places...and if Jason ever decides on the new reviewers (and I do hope to be one) are maybe I can move this site to my #1 :lol:

Anyways, guess we should quit highjacking this thread eh! :lol:

[dh]

Yep I goto PPCTools to get updates for MyVGA and TTM, but have never really looked at their forums much. For information I think that Brighthand and PPCT are the places...and if Jason ever decides on the new reviewers (and I do hope to be one) are maybe I can move this site to my #1 :lol:

Anyways, guess we should quit highjacking this thread eh! :lol:

I'm sure Steve or Kati will get us back on topic very politely :D

[Jason Dunn]

Well, I think this has wound down, and that's probably a good thing. I'm going to move it into the HOFS now where it deserves to be...