Pricing Role Reversal

[Jason Dunn]

Last night I was flipping through a flyer from Staples, and I saw this ad:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/role-reversal.jpg" /><br /><br />Now consider what you're seeing for a second, and compare that with that you'd see in a flyer a year ago. How things have changed! If you were a consumer looking for your first PDA, which one would you chose? 64 MB vs. 16 MB, $299 CND vs. $449 CND, no camera vs. camera, Viewsonic brand name vs. Palm brand name. All of those factor into the purchasing decision, but the price is the foremost among them all for most consumers. Does anyone else remember when, not even a full year ago, the primary complaint against Pocket PCs was the price?<br /><br />It's great to see that entry level Pocket PCs are so competative with offerings from the Palm camp. Way to go Pocket PC OEMs! :way to go:

[sting0r]

I do agree that it is great to see cheaper PPC for the masses. The days of having to buy a $600 iPAQ are over :)

[dochall]

It's a great change and will shake up the market.

The onlyh thing that are a few things that bug about the flyer though.

1) The difference in memory is clouded by the use of SDRAM for the V35. The average reader of the flyer could well be confused. If it just said 64 MB RAM it would be easier to compare.
2) Ok the v35 mentions MP3 and voice recording but there is nothing to stop the user 'watch(ing) videos and play(ing) games.' The absence of these could lead the average reader (man on the clapham omnibus for the UK members) to assume that you can't on the V35.

Maybe we should vet all third party adverts to ensure that the PPC is shown in the best possible light. :D

[Mr. Anonymous]

Um, is that the Zire 71 for 449 in Canadian dollars? Because here in the US it retails for $299 at the Palm Store as well as Staples.com:

http://store.palm.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1283240&clickid=feat_prod_title

http://www.staples.com/Products/SpotLights/030713/506524/Default.asp

I think your local Staples is pocketing $150 on every Palm sale :)

[ricksfiona]

This is a good thing. In America, it all comes down to price. This is what drove Palm to it's market share originally.

[Jason Dunn]

Um, is that the Zire 71 for 449 in Canadian dollars?

Yes - it's highly unlikely that I'd receive US flyers up here in Canada, right? :wink: I've clarified that it's Canadian dollars in my post...

[bjornkeizers]

I've noticed this trend here in the Netherlands as well.

Just looking through the weekly stack of advertisements both on and offline, PPC's are much, much cheaper then palms.

An Ipaq 1910 costs 199 euro. This is the cheapest PPC you can get over here. Now let's compare that with some Palms and Sonys:

Palm Tungsten T2: 499 euro
Palm Zire 71: 379 euro
Clie TG50: 449 euro

The cheapest palm is the Zire, costing about 100 euro. Now, this would be cheating as the Zire is just one step above a pen and paper.. so let's take the next step up: color, more memory and high res. So we come to the Clie SJ-22 which costs **219 euro**

But can it play quake? Can it view flash? Does it have a decent word or excel or powerpoint? No. It's an OK palm, but it cannot in any way, shape or form compete with even the cheapest Pocket PC.

Palm used to have the upper hand with two things: price and battery life. Battery life is just about equal these days, and PPC's are cheaper... something to think about!

[szamot]

I almost want to say. To Palm, RIP. Amen

Good on you PPC

[gohtor]

palm is still in the market because of it's simplistic use and slim design. I feel rather stupid with a bulging Dell PDA coming out of my pocket =)

I watched Solaris about a week ago and noticed a sony clie model was being toyed around with briefly by the character played by George Clooney. I have yet to see a movie that shows ppc in use.

I guess ppc's just can't cut it in the movie industry. Damned physically biased hollywood people.

Robert Huie

[apeguero]

Nice! I took a step in the dark side a couple of months ago when my old Genio 550g died. I bought a Palm Tungsten C. Boy what a useless piece of cr*p that was. Difficult as heck to get it to play video files. Also didn't have a built in picture viewer that worked or an MP3 player for that matter. No built-in Mic. The sound recorder required you to buy Palm's headphone/Mic in order to do voice memos. The headphone was mono. The speaker was lousy. And, yes, it did crash an awful lot. About the only thing I liked about it was the built in keyboard and WIFI. Otherwise everything else was sub par when compared to the Pocket PC. Try viewing web pages in a palm :evil: I guess Palm's Tungsten C is good if used for work stuff but the normal Joe it's pretty much useless.

I sold that chunky brick on e-bay and bought an iPaq 2215. My hat's off to both HP for the hardware and Microsoft for Pocket PC 2003. Not only is it more flexible to use and run programs on, but I'm also finding a lot more programs to use in PPC then in Palm. I can actually use my MS Money 2k3 as well as MS Streets & Trips 2k3 with my Pocket PC without having to buy extra software. All of this and a bigger screen for $200.00 less plus you get a CF slot and removable battery as well. What a turn around :D

Have you all had the chance to use some of these console emulators on your Pocket PC? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there are any for the Palm OS :way to go:

[apeguero]

palm is still in the market because of it's simplistic use and slim design. I feel rather stupid with a bulging Dell PDA coming out of my pocket

I have to disagree my friend. Have you seen the iPaq 1900 series? Have you also seen the nice Mitac 8800 series clamshell Smartphone? There a lot of nice, slim, hip looking Pocket PCs out there too.

On the other hand, Sony's latest Clie models and the Tungsten C and W models are not that simplistic and slim. I guess you can't really call the Tungsten T simplistic and slim either :)

[famousdavis]

It is a very good sign that PPC prices have fallen so that it now tempts electronic enthusiasts on a budget! I remember years ago looking at both Palm devices and the first Joranadas. I liked the Joranadas' color screen vs. the Palm monochrome/grayscale. But the price! Egad, I could never have justified spending $600 for an electronic toy! (Well, not exactly true -- I could never justify spending that amount of money before my WIFE! :wink: ).

Even a year or so ago, I looked at Palms and didn't like the shorthand and hard-to-read screens.

What changed my mind was -- of all things -- a sermon I heard one Sunday by a Bible teacher doing pulpit supply for my church. He spoke about being willing to accept change, embracing change eagerly. As an example, he whipped his PDA and said he *never* thought he'd need or want such a device. Now, he was completely won over by it. Hey, if the preacher says having a PDA is a good thing, then I need one, too! :D

The difference now was that a handsome PDA could be had for half the cost of one a few years ago. If PDAs were still $600, I'd still be on the sidelines.

[Jason Dunn]

palm is still in the market because of it's simplistic use and slim design. I feel rather stupid with a bulging Dell PDA coming out of my pocket =)

The Dell is certainly big, but the V35 is as thin as a monochrome Palm V, and the iPAQ 19xx series is both thin and "short". Please be fair in your comparisons. :wink:

[flatlander_48]

The real question is how long will it be before Palm proponents will stop saying it's cheaper? I suspect that will be a while yet...

[quidproquo]

I was talking to a friend who happend to be a medical dr. today. So he is not a big tech geek (no time)...... and he saw my T-Mobile PPC Phone and said...hey a Palm Pilot.....
After further discussion, he said he has a Palm and a PPC (to my surprise) 8O and he found the Palm simpler to use. I then argued the features of the more robust PPC.

If price is finally removed as an issue, then is comes down to usability and features and I still think the PPC has Palm beat. :wink:

[Alexis]

... How things have changed! ... not even a full year ago, the primary complaint against Pocket PCs was the price ...
It's great to see that entry level Pocket PCs are so competative with offerings from the Palm camp...
I have seen you say the above several times. Why do you mention the price point difference so often?

[Jason Dunn]

I have seen you say the above several times. Why do you mention the price point difference so often?

So often? I've done perhaps three front-page posts on this issue in the past year, so I don't think it's "so often". Anyway, I mention it because I still hear "Pocket PCs are more expensive than Palms", which is a false statement.

Is that ok with you? :wink:

[felixdd]

Is this a fair comparison though? The V35 is running on a dated OS, and Viewsonic is selling the V37. If you look at it this way, the V35 is dated stock, while the Zire is still relatively new.

Unless you're comparing in terms of ability. In that case the Zire is expensive at $449.

[Jason Dunn]

Is this a fair comparison though? The V35 is running on a dated OS, and Viewsonic is selling the V37. If you look at it this way, the V35 is dated stock, while the Zire is still relatively new.

I knew someone would bring this up, I'm just surprised it took so long. ;-) You know what? It doesn't matter to the consumer! Sure, a few might be educated enough to know about Windows Mobile 2003, but most will look at the features+price and make their decision based on that.

[Crimguy]

Say what you will (I like both Palms and PPC's equally), but the Zire 71 is one of the best Palms to come out in a long time. While it could use a bit more ram, it does have a very nice display, a camera, and OS 5. Even though I no longer use my palm V, having upgraded to an iPaq 3970, when people on a somewhat limited budget ask me what to get for $299, I say get the Zire 71 or the Sony TG-50. I do not tell them to get a 1940.

I've posted this opinion before, and I'll post it again: I think there is enough room in the pda market for 2 operating systems.

[felixdd]

I knew someone would bring this up, I'm just surprised it took so long. ;-) You know what? It doesn't matter to the consumer! Sure, a few might be educated enough to know about Windows Mobile 2003, but most will look at the features+price and make their decision based on that.

Yeah but what are we trying to do here? Comment on the price drop from a consumer point of view, or commend the PPC makers for a job well done in beating down yet another myth of PPC = $$$$$ and Palm = $ ? I was under the impression on the latter.

But of course, it's all good. The Viewsonic is a splendid machine -- compact, light, nimble, and an awesome screen.

And yeah I was surprised why no one brought up what I did as well...or why it took so long? Maybe I'm destined to be the goat this time around? :oops:

[acronym]

I knew someone would bring this up, I'm just surprised it took so long. ;-) You know what? It doesn't matter to the consumer! Sure, a few might be educated enough to know about Windows Mobile 2003, but most will look at the features+price and make their decision based on that.

so, in essence, you knew that you were comparing an outdated/discontinued ppc against a new palm product to support your claim against palms. This is getting as bad as mac vs. windows debates.

Lets not forget that palm pilots will sync perfectly with all windows and macintosh OS running computers without buying additional software. And as much as I hate to say it, web browsing over gprs using bluetooth was flawless using the palm T (and noticably faster website rendering).

[spursdude]

so, in essence, you knew that you were comparing an outdated/discontinued ppc against a new palm product to support your claim against palms.

Even if the V35 is discontinued, it's in no way outdated. Even if it were though, I don't think that would matter. The bottom line to me is that you can get an PPC which can outperform a Palm, and the PPC is cheaper.

Heck - if there were a 5 year old PPC that was better and cheaper than the Zire Z1, I would choose the PPC - if it works well, who cares about age?

palm pilots
They're not "pilots" anymore... just thought I would point that out. :wink:

[kiwi]

hey,

I was in staples today in Toronto and saw this on sale for $299.. I thought it was a mistake! holy cow thats a great price for a PPC!! If I had not upgraded from my HP568 to 2210 I would buy it !
The e330 was also listed around $CA300 as well!!
Man those PPCs do look big though compared to the 2210/19XX series..

b

[SandersP]

so, in essence, you knew that you were comparing an outdated/discontinued ppc against a new palm product to support your claim against palms. This is getting as bad as mac vs. windows debates.

V35 is outdated? wooot?
It's 300mHz Xscale with 2k3 free upgrade.



Lets not forget that palm pilots will sync perfectly with all windows and macintosh OS running computers without buying additional software. And as much as I hate to say it, web browsing over gprs using bluetooth was flawless using the palm T (and noticably faster website rendering).

Sync perfectly? is that like outlook with half of category missing? heh...
and since when you can browse the net with GPRS using Z71? IR?

[Janak Parekh]

so, in essence, you knew that you were comparing an outdated/discontinued ppc against a new palm product to support your claim against palms. This is getting as bad as mac vs. windows debates.
Not only is what everyone else said true, Viewsonic has announced that the V35 and V37 will be upgradeable to Windows Mobile 2003. Palm also still sells outdated PalmOS 4.x devices, but they can't upgrade...

--janak

[Jason Dunn]

so, in essence, you knew that you were comparing an outdated/discontinued ppc against a new palm product to support your claim against palms. This is getting as bad as mac vs. windows debates.

&lt;sigh>:takethat:

Ok, let me spell it out in a more obvious fashion for you. Viewsonic has no Pocket PC 2003 devices out yet. The rumoured V36 has not yet been released. They have two Pocket PCs on the market:

V35: 64 MB RAM, 300 mhz CPU, $249
V37: 64 MB RAM, 400 mhz CPU, 64 MB Flash ROM, .Net CF, $349

Saying that the V35 is an outdated Pocket PC is the same as saying Dell's 300 Mhz X5 is outdated. It's not a "clearence bargain bin" device until the OEM is no longer touting it as a current device, and that hasn't happened yet.

It's not like I was saying "Wow, look at the price of this iPAQ 3650 - what a steal!" :roll:

[AKBishop]

Lets not forget that palm pilots will sync perfectly with all windows and macintosh OS running computers without buying additional software. And as much as I hate to say it, web browsing over gprs using bluetooth was flawless using the palm T (and noticably faster website rendering).

Pocket PCs will sync with Windows computers without buying additional software. If you payed for ActiveSync you were robbed. And... I have "flawless" browing with my 3850 (nearly 2 years old) over bluetooth using my GPRS phone. I guess when it comes to outdated, I compare my 3850 with a current Palm model and I still prefer my 3850. But it's probably a matter of preference when it comes to Palms vs. PPC. Do you prefer better devices and software or not? That isn't the same as the Mac vs. PC debate. That is a matter of personal preference with some minor issues as to what you want to do and also what you prefer to look at on your desk.

[AhuhX]

Lets not forget that palm pilots will sync perfectly with all windows and macintosh OS running computers without buying additional software.

And let's not forget that users of over 95% of the personal computers in existence probably just DON'T CARE that Windows powered PPC's don't sync with Apple OS machines out of the box.

I'd rather the MS PPC development team spend their limited resources creating useful additions to the platform than attempt to placate an ever dwindling minority- no matter how vocal they are.

[Michel]

The bottom line to me is that you can get an PPC which can outperform a Palm...
That depends on how you define "outperform": if you mean emulators available, native files, etc., then the answer is yes.
If you mean speed of opening/closing apps/forms, screen redraws (e.g. when using the PIMs) the answer is no: Palm is considerably faster in these areas.

In fact, PIM speed (or the lack thereof) was the primary reason for me selling my Axim Advanced.

*Edited a typo*

[Steven Cedrone]

Off-topic discussion about movies is here... (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17855&highlight=)

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

[apeguero]

Does the Palm OS offer true multi-tasking?

[Ed Hansberry]

Does the Palm OS offer true multi-tasking?Nope. OS6 is supposed to. I think that is supposed to start shipping in the spring of 2004.

[apeguero]

Thanks Ed. That's a point I wanted to make about Palm units. It's another reason why I decided to go back to Pocket PC. I couldn't believe a $500.00 Palm Tungsten C didn't have multi-tasking. I had to keep going through the motions of opening the Spreadsheet viewer in Palm then open the spreadsheet then adjust the zoom level, then go the row/column I was last viewing, then close the spreadsheet program, then open the Pocket Money software, then go to the account I was updating, update it, then close Pocket Money and start the whole damned process up again! Again, another reason why I went running back to CompUSA to buy the 2215 0X

[Jason Dunn]

If you mean speed of opening/closing apps/forms, screen redraws (e.g. when using the PIMs) the answer is no: Palm is considerable faster in these areas.

You won't hear me arguing that point - the Zire 71 is *blazing* when it comes to opening and closing apps, and screen redraws. Now, to be fair, DOS was fast too :wink: - any single-task operating system will be fast. But the screen redraws were awesome on the Zire - everything was instant. The real question though is whether or not Palm can maintain that speed as they become multi-tasking like the Pocket PC...we'll see!

[bjornkeizers]

Is this a fair comparison though? The V35 is running on a dated OS, and Viewsonic is selling the V37. If you look at it this way, the V35 is dated stock, while the Zire is still relatively new.

Unless you're comparing in terms of ability. In that case the Zire is expensive at $449.

Oh you MUST be joking! If I compare the latest and most expensive palm to my first real PPC, the Ipaq 3630, the palm still loses. The 3630 could play QUAKE! Can a zire do that? or a tungsten? or a clie? heck no! It doesn't even have proper Word or Excel! And speaking from experience, I can tell you that you need a different reader for every other bloody format. I can't view HTML, TXT, word, excel, or pictures on my Palm or Clie without needing at least two different readers or viewers! The Pocket PC has all that and more right out of the box.

[Fishie]

Does the Palm OS offer true multi-tasking?Nope. OS6 is supposed to. I think that is supposed to start shipping in the spring of 2004.

Palm OS6 Will NOT offer true multitasking, mark my words.

[spursdude]

It doesn't even have proper Word or Excel!
Just to be fair, the third party bundled apps for word processing on a Palm are, sadly enough, better than Pocket Word.

[bjornkeizers]

It doesn't even have proper Word or Excel!
Just to be fair, the third party bundled apps for word processing on a Palm are, sadly enough, better than Pocket Word.

Yes, but we're not talking about third party bundled apps. We're talking right out of the box. When I took my jornada out of the box, I could read all my word, txt, html, excel and other stuff on it.. without needing so much as a single piece of software.

On palm, I need like a dozen readers and viewers to do the same thing, and I need to convert my documents every time I want to use them on palm or PC... I don't have to do that with a Pocket PC.

Which was the simple platform again? :lol:

[Ed Hansberry]

Yes, but we're not talking about third party bundled apps. We're talking right out of the box. When I took my jornada out of the box, I could read all my word, txt, html, excel and other stuff on it.. without needing so much as a single piece of software.

On palm, I need like a dozen readers and viewers to do the same thing, and I need to convert my documents every time I want to use them on palm or PC... I don't have to do that with a Pocket PC.

Which was the simple platform again? :lol:
Exactly! To this day, most Palm devices don't have Excel and Word apps installed on them. They sit on the Palm CD, so if you have it installed and want to beam it to another Palm user, there is a better than not chance that they won't be able to read it.

[guinness]

Pocket Word or Excel barely count as doc/xls editors/viewers though, except in the most basic of uses. Most Palms do come with Docs to Go and at least that doesn't screw up formatting if you change anything on the PDA. Out of the box, the PPC's may have a slim edge, but there aren't as many replacements available for the PPC as Palm.

[crasher]

*snip* Out of the box, the PPC's may have a slim edge, but there aren't as many replacements available for the PPC as Palm.

AS of today there aren't as many replacements for PPC office apps, but if the popularity of PPCs continues to rise, I think it's fair to say that that argument won't be valid pretty soon! :wink: