Palm Releases Two New Handhelds

[Janak Parekh]

For the first time in years (in my opinion, since the release of the Palm V), Palm has released a pair of devices that are solidly competitive. The <a href="http://www.palm.com/products/handhelds/zire71/">Zire 71</a> is a consumer handheld that has a built-in camera, and the <a href="http://www.palm.com/products/handhelds/tungsten-c/">Tungsten C</a> has a thumbboard and built-in Wi-Fi. Just like all of us, I have several thoughts about these devices:<!><li> This, to me, shows that Palm finally realizes that consumers really <i>do</i> want advanced functionality in their handheld devices -- like what Pocket PCs have been offering all along. The Tungsten T was a start, but it was billed as a high-end unit. The fact that Palm branded an ARM-enabled, 320x320, integrated camera Palm OS 5.2 unit as a <i>Zire</i>, though, and that they made a unit that has built-in 802.11b support for the first time is evidence of this.<br /><li> At the same time, the notion of Palms being "svelte" and the Pocket PCs being "bricks" is rapidly fading -- first, the NX and NZ devices showed that there <i>is</i> popular support for larger PDAs, and the fact that both of these new Palms are about the same thickness as your typical iPAQ or Axim shows that this isn't really a valid comparison anymore. When the m515 is phased out, the 1910 will stand pretty much alone on the "tiny" side of things, with a few Clies close behind.<br /><li> RAM and CPU matters -- and I'm pleasantly surprised to see that the T|C has 64MB of RAM and a 400MHz PXA255 XScale built-in.<br /><li> Somewhat surprising is their total lack of Bluetooth support. I've moaned about this from Pocket PC vendors, and I'll moan about it from Palm vendors: it's not expensive to integrate and the possibilities would have been endless. Could you have imagined a Zire 71 where you could take pictures and exchange them with your friends? Or a Tungsten C that can attach wirelessly to your T68? As usual, like most handheld manufacturers, they always seem to leave something out. (And as for the Palm SDIO Bluetooth card -- from what I've heard, it's not compatible with OS 5 yet.)<br /><li> I'm not a huge fan of their decision to architect these as two separate devices. For example, the Tungsten C, which is clearly aimed at the <b>C</b>orporate market, doesn't have stereo audio (even if you use headphones). What on earth were they thinking? What I <b>really</b> want is a cross between the upcoming <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9659">Toshiba Genio with integrated camera</a> and the 5450: Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, and a camera all-in-one (or at least the Genio with a Symbol Wi-Fi card stuck in it... ;))<br /><li> Where is the Pocket PC with an integrated thumbboard? The online possibilities of a T|C with its integrated WiFi, thumbboard, and vibration are endless. It could be a compelling IM and email solution -- walk into a Starbucks, and pull this thing out of your pocket. The only Pocket PC solution that comes close right now is the Jornada 568 keyboard, and that still makes it nearly unpocketable.<br /><li> The T|C has Documents To Go <i>integrated into ROM</i>, giving rise to a whole new set of debates as to which PDA has the best Office functionality built-in. Overall, I think this is a very positive move by Palm to beef up the functionality of their units, and validates the device strategy held by Pocket PC vendors all along (and, more recently, Sony). Now, however, is the time for Pocket PC vendors to respond -- the hardware gap is nearly eliminated, and I won't go into the PalmOS vs. Pocket PC debate, since we've already addressed that -- but it's time to see new directions, like the HP prototype with the <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6367">integrated keyboard</a> or the aforementioned Genio with flash camera. I think the competition is about to heat up, which is a great thing for customers. 8)<br /><br /><i>[Note: Seeing as how we'll probably break into a debate, you're welcome to criticize either platform, but please be courteous and respectful and debate opinions, not people. Any personal criticisms or unwarranted language will not be tolerated!]</i>

[ExtremeSIMS]

As noted in other forums/threads, I tried the Tungsten C. WiFi was nice, keyboard rocked, PXA255 was fast. However, I am taking it back. I've mentioned the reasons elsewhere, so I am not going to retype them.

Like Janek, I would like Microsoft push:

1) PPC with keyboard. It makes a huge difference when you are trying to enter a lot of data or type out emails.
2) Sync with Mac. Yes, one of my pet peeves. Why does Entourage, a Microsoft product, sync with Palm and not Pocket PC?
3) Improve Pocket Office. D2G is a great solution, and Pocket Office has some catching up to do, IMO.
4) Up the resolution. The screen - even at 320x320 - on the Tungsten was crisp and clear. While the form factor of my Toshiba's screen offers more readable space with web sites and whatnot, I would like higher rez.

[Nellwaskilled]

Z71 is bigger than h1910 and h2200. I thought it was amazing that a dual slots h2200 is actually smaller than a Zire

[Foo Fighter]

I have the Zire 71. Incredible little handheld, but it's not without a few shortcomings. Its digital audio capabilities are a joke. The volume is far too weak to be used as a serious handheld MP3 player. That aside, Z71 is near perfection in terms of design. Small, sleek, fun, fast...COOL! I don't want to have tomatoes thrown at me for saying this, but....WHY CAN'T THE POCKET PC CAMP COME UP WITH SOMETHING LIKE THIS??????? :splat:

[medic119]

Looks like PalmOS is coming up with some really sharp and up to date products like the Kyocera 7135 phone as well as the Tungstens, etc. The hardware is as good if not better (320x320 come on) in some areas, but its still failing in one MAJOR area, the PIM.

The PIM is still the same old Calendar, Contacts, Todo, etc as was in my first Palm 1000 almost 7 years ago! People don't buy PDAs for Camera, Pictures, Screens, Office Documents, etc. Although those are all icing on the cake as sway people one way or the other, the core of a PDA (Personal Digital Assistant) is the PIM and Palm is still falling far short of anything the PocktPC offers. The palm can't even handle multiple categories per contact!

So while the race is starting to heat up once again, As long as the PocketPC Pim is better than the Palms (and with PI 4 it rocks) I will stick with PocketPC.

[bdegroodt]

I looked at this thing first thing this morning and thought for sure I was no longer going to be using the PPC as my device...then the no BT thing surfaced and as I've mentioned before "No BT. No Sale!"

Palm- Good job on bringing a real competitor to the market at a good price point, but...No BT. No sale!

[malcolmsharp]

I have the Zire 71. Incredible little handheld, but it's not without a few shortcomings. Its digital audio capabilities are a joke. The volume is far too weak to be used as a serious handheld MP3 player. That aside, Z71 is near perfection in terms of design. Small, sleek, fun, fast...COOL! I don't want to have tomatoes thrown at me for saying this, but....WHY CAN'T THE POCKET PC CAMP COME UP WITH SOMETHING LIKE THIS??????? :splat:

No thrown farm products from here, anyway. I'm a PPC guy from way back, and I still think it's the best platform for a number of reasons... but that doesn't mean I don't think that PPC makers should pick up a few lessons from Palm makers.

I'd love some of the things Palm has... built in keyboard, built in camera, hi res (in fact, I think MS should be really bothered that now Palm beats them in screen res), and such.

Not so much that I'd put up with a Palm, though. ;)

[bdeli]

I beleive that Palm are moving in the right direction. They are listening to what consumers want though the omission of BT and a stereo output for their Tungsten C sucks. Thumbs up for the integrated keyboard on the Tungsten C and the integration of the digicam in the Zire. And the price will certainly hurt PocketPC sales.

I bought a Tungsten T 3 weeks ago - first Palm I ever owned, and so far I love it. Battery life and form factor are great. I meant to get an iPAQ 1910, but $$ wise it was not worth it.

When is Microsoft going to learn that we need to get an updated OS. The UI needs a facelift and Activesync....well - that is another whole story!

[thenikjones]

The PIM is still the same old Calendar, Contacts, Todo, etc as was in my first Palm 1000 almost 7 years ago! People don't buy PDAs for Camera, Pictures, Screens, Office Documents, etc. Although those are all icing on the cake as sway people one way or the other, the core of a PDA (Personal Digital Assistant) is the PIM and Palm is still falling far short of anything the PocktPC offers. The palm can't even handle multiple categories per contact!


To be fair, the PPC PIM is also poor. Both platforms need 3rd party apps and I'd suggest that Agendus and (certainly) DateBook 5 are at least as good, if not better, than PI or Agenda Fusion.

That said, the reason I wouldn't go back to Palm is because I couldn't stand not being able to asign work AND home addresses to Contacts. That really does suck, and is a major reason I stick with my Jornada. If you can do this on a Palm, and sych to Outlook, I'd be interested to know.

A built-in keyboard would be nice but I'd want it to follow the Zaurus sliding route. I have the thumb-board for my 568 and when I don't have it attached, I miss it. When I attach it, I am annoyed by its bulk! A PPC with sliding keyboard would be the ideal for me.

[Foo Fighter]

When is Microsoft going to learn that we need to get an updated OS. The UI needs a facelift and Activesync....well - that is another whole story!

Definitely. The sooner the better. ActiveSync is the biggest problem facing the platform. This morning when I docked my Axim, ActiveStink misidentified it as a "Guest" connection. Will wonders ever cease? :roll:

[Nellwaskilled]

I have the Zire 71. Incredible little handheld, but it's not without a few shortcomings. Its digital audio capabilities are a joke. The volume is far too weak to be used as a serious handheld MP3 player. That aside, Z71 is near perfection in terms of design. Small, sleek, fun, fast...COOL! I don't want to have tomatoes thrown at me for saying this, but....WHY CAN'T THE POCKET PC CAMP COME UP WITH SOMETHING LIKE THIS??????? :splat:

what's wrong with Viewsonic plus an SD camera?
but I would agree, the h2200 with a full 3MP+flash camera would be far better.

Zire 71 = 8.74 (4.5" x 2.9" x 0.67") 5.3 oz
iPaq 2200 = 7.80 (4.50" x 2.75" x 0.63") 5.5 oz.
iPaq h1910 = 6.71 (4.46"x 2.75"x 0.50") 4.23 oz.

[ExtremeSIMS]

To be fair, the PPC PIM is also poor. Both platforms need 3rd party apps and I'd suggest that Agendus and (certainly) DateBook 5 are at least as good, if not better, than PI or Agenda Fusion.

That said, the reason I wouldn't go back to Palm is because I couldn't stand not being able to asign work AND home addresses to Contacts. That really does suck, and is a major reason I stick with my Jornada. If you can do this on a Palm, and sych to Outlook, I'd be interested to know.

A built-in keyboard would be nice but I'd want it to follow the Zaurus sliding route. I have the thumb-board for my 568 and when I don't have it attached, I miss it. When I attach it, I am annoyed by its bulk! A PPC with sliding keyboard would be the ideal for me.

Amen on the contacts thing. Single biggest annoyance. There are "solutions", but all they do is add one address in the notes section on the Palm device. That's wacky.
I had a Zaurus - the sliding keyboard was slick!

[Duncan]

The T|C is impressive BUT this is still Palm playing catch-up. This is a Palm with features that both Sony Palm devices and Pocket PC's have had for many months. In terms of marketing all the Pocket PC people (and MS) have to do is point this out - and also point out that the Zen of Palm thing appears to have been firmly abandoned...

Let's face it - in two to three months we are likely to see yet another generation of Pocket PCs. These are likely to 'up the ante' and leave Palm behind again.

Still - someone had better be making arrangements to fit SoftMaker's Office Anywhere suite (and Pocket Informant if they have any sense) into the ROM of a future PPC...

[bdegroodt]

The T|C is impressive BUT this is still Palm playing catch-up. This is a Palm with features that both Sony Palm devices and Pocket PC's have had for many months...

While this may be true, I think it's hard to argue that Palm hasn't done more in the last 6 months to their product line than any PPC device manufacturer has. It's pretty impressive to watch a company that was (Maybe is still) pretty sick come to life and make the bleeding slow this significantly.

I still give the lead to PPC, but it's a narrowing lead.

[Duncan]

I think it's hard to argue that Palm hasn't done more in the last 6 months to their product line than any PPC device manufacturer has.

But then playing catch up is easy - just copy what the others have done. Somehow Palm took six months to do this (compare and contrast with Dell who caught up with just about every other PPC manufacturer in one swift move).

And, yes, the gap is currently narrowing - but let's face it - the next gen of PPC will expand that gap again...

Oddly I think these new models may harm Palm. The distinction between Palm devices and Pocket PCs has finally been eroded - so what do you buy? Palm - who are new at the high end - or Pocket PC - who have been doing this for a while? Plus - what are Palm devotees going to think of devices that embody all the 'evils' they've decried in the Pocket PC for so long?

[Timothy Rapson]

This is a first.

This is the first Palm branded product, I would ever have considered buying. This is nothing new, but it is half the list price of the Sony model and lacks only the soft grafitti of those $600 list Sonys.

If it had soft grafitti (can't really go back to no FITALY) and 64 meg RAM it would be about as perfect (for my desires) as a PDA gets.

$300? I expect these will be sold out for quite a while. First time for Palm to do that since maybe the Palm Vx

[bdegroodt]

But then playing catch up is easy - just copy what the others have done. Somehow Palm took six months to do this (compare and contrast with Dell who caught up with just about every other PPC manufacturer in one swift move).


I don't agree. Playing catch up isn't an easy business. Catching up might be, but catching up is rarely good enough to grow and lead.

I think Palm's use of the integrated keyboard is a good example of taking a lead in at least one very important feature set. Syncronization is another area I believe they lead over the PPC. Now you take away the screen quality from PPC and at a very reasonable price point and it's a pretty interesting summer coming upon us.

Next gen PPC? Have you seen the sneak peeks (I know, taboo conversation on this board. Sorry.)? I don't think it's going to be a real quantum leap. Very sadly, I say that. Or are you talking about the proposed 2004/2005 releases?

[Nellwaskilled]

Oddly I think these new models may harm Palm. The distinction between Palm devices and Pocket PCs has finally been eroded - so what do you buy? Palm - who are new at the high end - or Pocket PC - who have been doing this for a while? Plus - what are Palm devotees going to think of devices that embody all the 'evils' they've decried in the Pocket PC for so long?

It'll be about the software.
take for eg. the Z71 camera. IT can take picture but there is no software that can record video or make .mp3 slide shows.

GenioC or even any shaggy CF camera can record rudimentary video. There is also video conferencing via wireless.

they pretty much use the same hardware, but the OS and apps tied them together.

[Janak Parekh]

Oddly I think these new models may harm Palm. The distinction between Palm devices and Pocket PCs has finally been eroded - so what do you buy? Palm - who are new at the high end - or Pocket PC - who have been doing this for a while? Plus - what are Palm devotees going to think of devices that embody all the 'evils' they've decried in the Pocket PC for so long?
If you're us, then probably the Pocket PC. But -- the mass market knows the Palm brand better than anything else. If Palm manages to transition their T|T, m515, and perhaps a bit more of their lower-end buyers to these products, that might be decent enough for them to hold on until PalmOS 6. Microsoft & co. have to be more aggressive in their branding efforts. Everyone still calls PDAs "Palm Pilots", after all.

--janak

[Duncan]

I don't agree. Playing catch up isn't an easy business. Catching up might be, but catching up is rarely good enough to grow and lead.

Ummm... you just did agree?! As I said - catching up is easy - but as you said - that isn't good enough...

I think Palm's use of the integrated keyboard is a good example of taking a lead in at least one very important feature set.

Uggghhh! Integrated thumb keyboards... foisting a single solution onto people rather than giving people the choice of attaching their own, or using software solutions or the full-sized folding kind. Not what I would call taking a lead!

Next gen PPC? Have you seen the sneak peeks (I know, taboo conversation on this board. Sorry.)? I don't think it's going to be a real quantum leap.

Why do we need a QL? One step (e.g. 128MB) immediately pushes the PPC ahead again!

[Foo Fighter]

Catch-up is a double edged sword, Duncan. Don't forget, Microsoft played catch-up with PalmOS when they released Pocket PC, after a failed first attempt. And one of the primary reasons why PPC has met with success is because Microsoft learned from Palm's approach to simplicity.

And you are way off base by saying the Zire 71 is catching up with PPC. Show me a Pocket PC with a 320x320 display (twice the resolution of Pocket PC) with a built-in digi-cam for under $299. I call that a smack down. Suddenly the HP 1910 doesn't look so compelling.

[Janak Parekh]

Uggghhh! Integrated thumb keyboards... foisting a single solution onto people rather than giving people the choice of attaching their own, or using software solutions or the full-sized folding kind. Not what I would call taking a lead!
Not necessarily a single solution - but at least a wider variety. For those of us online, keyboards are the fastest choice. Attachments are, unfortunately, bulky -- at least the way everyone has done it so far. As I alluded in my initial post, the HP prototype is the first great promise I've seen, as it has a full screen plus an unfolding keyboard.

And you are way off base by saying the Zire 71 is catching up with PPC. Show me a Pocket PC with a 320x320 display (twice the resolution of Pocket PC) with a built-in digi-cam for under $299. I call that a smack down. Suddenly the HP 1910 doesn't look so compelling.
320x320 isn't double than 320x240, and the digicam isn't so great resolutionwise, so I wouldn't pass up the 1910, which is also smaller. But point taken otherwise. ;)

--janak

[Crystal Eitle]

I haven't seen the new Palms in person yet, but I have to concur with what everyone else is saying here about Pocket PC devices having some catching up to do with Palm-based devices in terms of hardware. The other night I was playing with a Sony Clie NX70V at a computer store and boy was I impressed with its form factor! The swivel screen and built-in thumbboard are really, really cool. And the screen resolution was just gorgeous.

I don't care so much about having an integrated digital camera. I think PDAs are one thing and cameras are another, and you can't hope to integrate them and still have a decent camera. And since cameras are getting smaller and smaller, why not just carry both?

I think what will be important to people is built-in wireless capability. I'll bet the integrated keyboard and WiFi capability of the T|C will make choosing it a no-brainer for some people.

[Foo Fighter]

320x320 isn't double than 320x240

It is if you remove the graffiti pad. When you open the Input Space in Pocket PC, the actual viewable area is 240x240.

[Duncan]

Don't forget, Microsoft played catch-up with PalmOS when they released Pocket PC

Indeed - and only when they moved past that did they become a real success.

And you are way off base by saying the Zire 71 is catching up with PPC.

320x320 display (one and a third times the resolution!) is not a big deal when you compare the screens and not just the figures (Sony's 480x320 is mind you...). Built in digi-cam - why is that a big deal? Putting to one side the fact that at least one PPC is coming that beats the Zire at its own game - again we are seeing the adding of a feature whether we want it or not - taking away the choice. Novelty features I can do without - but Palm seem to be basing their entire strategy on such things!

[Foo Fighter]

Built in digi-cam - why is that a big deal? Putting to one side the fact that at least one PPC is coming that beats the Zire at its own game -

We don't yet know how much the Toshiba Genio will cost (I'm assuming that is what you are referring to). It may be priced as much as $599 here in the US, that's hardly competitive.

What's the big deal with digi-cams? Just ask cell phone manufacturers. Digi-cams are going to become mainstream on mobile phones. It's not a gimmick.

[palmsolo]

I think these two new devices are a great step for Palm and should do well in sales. They are priced about right, although the C should have had Bluetooth at $500. I would seriously consider getting the C, except I can't live without my 320x480 display on my CLIE NX70V. I currently own an iPaq 1910, CLIE NX70V, Zaurus SL5500, and Apple MessagePad 2000. I am not so concerned about the size of my devices, but the screen size and resolution is important since I do a lot of reading on my devices. I would love to see a Palm or Pocket PC with a display like the MessagePad, but with half the weight (1lb. or so on the 2000).

I would love to see some improvement in the Pocket PC screen size and a CLIE running the Pocket PC OS could be great. I have been using the Documents to Go Premium Edition and am very impressed with it and the fact that it is in the ROM of the C is a step in the right direction.

ActiveSync is a huge factor in holding back the Pocket PC and needs to be improved to run as seamlessly as HotSync for the Palm.

[bdeli]

And did anybody notice that the Tungsten C comes with a 1500mAh battery to compensate from the Wifi battery drain. That is an extra 600mAh over the Tungsten T and Zire 71!

ArgH - I just wish they had included stereo sound output and BT....

[palmsolo]

Yeah the 1500mAh battery is sweet. Now only if it was replaceable then you could have a true road warrior!

[ExtremeSIMS]

And did anybody notice that the Tungsten C comes with a 1500mAh battery to compensate from the Wifi battery drain. That is an extra 600mAh over the Tungsten T and Zire 71!

ArgH - I just wish they had included stereo sound output and BT....

Ditto - and fix the damned "contacts have only one address" issue.

This salvo is GOOD for Pocket PC. It forces PPC manufacturers and Microsoft to innovate - TRULY innovate. Remember when Palm said no to thumb keyboards and multimedia? They saw the light. Time for Pocket PC to reinvent.

[Fishie]

320x320 isn't double than 320x240

It is if you remove the graffiti pad. When you open the Input Space in Pocket PC, the actual viewable area is 240x240.

Ah yes, throw away part of the screen to make a non point, talked like a true palmie Foo.

Dude PPC´s dont have more memory, throw away 48MB and youre stuck with 16MB just like a Palm.

[Edited by moderator 4/24 9:07am: no name-calling!]

[Looxer]

Obviously palm trying to catch-up with PPC, because their new units are still missing some good stuff like BT, MP3, Video, etc… But truth to be told I liked the T|C it is a good step for Palm, on the other hand it is time for PPCs to go further, more RAM (at least 128 Mb), higher screen resolution, longer battery life, more reliable and faster OS... PPCs offer more for the end user overall that’s what makes them more desirable in my opinion.

[cdcooker]

While PPC enjoy the "we have more features" in the past 2+ years, the gap between Palm and PPC is closer. The hardware design of Zire 71 is impressive. It looks good too. I just don't like the Palm OS. Right now, hardware wise, H1910 should be the benchmark and design reference from every PPC vendors. Axim X5, Ipaq 5xxx, Toshiba Exxx, all are too big to be real pocketable. Also, why stuck with silver color case? If the rumor specs of the upcoming Ipaq H2200 is for real, I will be very disappointed. Hardware-wise is OK, but it doesn't look good to me at all, just like Axim X5, very dull looking. We need something like H1910 and better from HP. The Pocket PC 2003 is still using 240x320 :twisted: This is absolutely non-sense to me. Are the PPC team listen to us? We need higher resolution. We were beat up by Palm and Sony here. We have no excuse right now. PPC should be 320x480, at least.

We PPC camp hasn't won the war yet. But we act like winning the war already. We don't have any major improvement both software and hardeware wise since the introduction of Pocket PC.

What I really want for my next PPC is with H1910 form factor, integerated WiFi and BT, SDIO slot, 320x480 transflective TFT, real earphone jack, not the cell phone size jack, 128MB RAM, 400mhz CPU. For the software, we need a better office suite than the current one, IE should support mutiple sessions, built in language switching tool like IE 5 and 6. landscape mode should be available for all apps.

[Cypher]

The Tungsten C and the Zire 71 are a good start for Palm; a big step in the right direction. The look stylish and they've got some nice features although closer inspection shows that those features aren't as powerful as they seem at first.
The best thing about an integrated camera is that you'll always have it with you. The worst thing about an integrated camera is that it's never as good as a dedicated unit. I'd rather have an add-on that integrates nicely into the design so I can upgrade it when higher resolution units come along.
The same is true with the keyboard. I like the design of the new iPAQ thumboard. (It's unsurprisingly a lot like the old Jornada add-on.) Still, I'd rather have an add-on that I can replace if a key gets stuck or broken than have to replace the whole PPC.
What I hope happens is that Microsoft and the PPC OEMs see this as a wake-up call. They need to start putting out PPCs with quad-density screens (full 640x480) with on-the-fly re-orientation. The last bit will require WinCE.NET with Pocket PC on top. They could also double the RAM again, just to make Palm spit bricks :) (Honestly 64MB is pretty much enough. When you load it up with apps the machine runs pretty slow. Still, with the new 200MHz bus and some better efficiency in programming... and getting rid of that :devilboy: hard-coded driver memory limit, 128MB could be just fine.)
I'll also agree that somebody needs to take a look at the Casio em-500. That, in my mind was the only stylish PPC ever made. We need a line of consumer-oriented PPCs as well as the high-end business-oriented ones.

[dbman]

The two best features of the T|C will be its speed and bundled apps.

Hopefully someone will devise a rational method to benchmark the T|C and a newer PPC. Given my limited experience with the 200MHz T|T, the 400MHz CPU in the T|C should really smoke! If the T|C is as fast as I suspect it is, the image of the current generation of PPC is going to really take a hit! Now that a Palm device is running a 400MHz CPU with a large memory model, things are going to get interesting. Hopefully, this is exactly what we need to get some action out of Microsoft.

I suspect the VPN capabilities of the T|C alone are going to impact corporate sales. The fact that it offers WiFi instead of Bluetooth is another plus. One of the reasons I purchased an Axim over a Tungsten was the desire to have WiFi. SDIO is another plus, something the Axim sorely lacks.

The bundled apps are quite impressive considering you get a commercial video codec and player along with lots of nice business-quality apps. Nothing I received with my Axim compares.

[bdegroodt]

The same is true with the keyboard. I like the design of the new iPAQ thumboard. (It's unsurprisingly a lot like the old Jornada add-on.) Still, I'd rather have an add-on that I can replace if a key gets stuck or broken than have to replace the whole PPC.




Are you referring to the one that hasn't shipped yet? If so, I'm with you on that. But as I sit and look at my iPaq and wonder where would I put a keyboard to on it, I can't help but to think that all that black plastic at the top could be shortened up/eliminated, the screen moved up and possibly lengthened and a keyboard added right where the quick launch/dpad is now. I know it is counter to your desire for a replicable add on, but it's so much more convenient of a form factor for those of us that carry it on our person or are trying to rely upon it as a primary machine away from the office (On travel).

Tomorrow, I'm making a big step in my tech life and leaving my laptop at the office for the first time ever as I travel to Austin for 36 hours. I'm only apprehensize about the need to respond to emails in a reasonable time via my iPaq and I can't get that done with Transcriber or Hunt n Peck.

[Hyperluminal]

This is really serious for the Pocket PC platform. Palm has actually caught up to PPC in terms of features. This has never happened before, not even close. Ever since the initial Palm-size PCs, WinCE has always had more features than Palm. Palm had simplicity, it often worked better than the original PsPCs, but CE always had the advantage in sheer features.

Think about it. Not too long ago, there was an enormous gap between Palm and PPC. We were cruising along on out 206MHz StrongArms, while Palm users considered 33MHz "blazing." We had 32 and 64 MB of RAM, they had 8. We had 240x320, 16-bit color screens, while they had 160x160 screens that were lucky if they if they could show 4 shades of grey.

Now look. Nearly every Palm has 320x320 screens, most of them are color, while every PPC has 240x320. Don't like a square screen? Get a Sony Clie with 320x480. The T|C has 64 MB of RAM, just like the most expensive Pocket PCs. The processor, once laughably slow, now goes at the same 400MHz as the best PPCs. They also ahve many more features: no PPC (at least in North America) has a camera built in. Or a thumb keyboard. In fact, with a Clie, you can use a thumbboard and a soft input panel. Now they also have WiFi. Hardware-wise, Palm pretty much has caught up with PPC. It's not like Palm OS doesn't have BT, just the Palm Inc. models don't. Basically, PPC has to catch up with Palm, not in terms of software, but hardware. That's just sad.

In fact, the only thing PPC has right now is software. Palm OS just wasn't designed to work with this stuff, in fact it was designed specifically not to deal with these kinds of features. The biggest example is that it can't multitask. And there are plenty of other examples. However, Palm OS 6 is going to be coming out later this year. It could very well change all that.

Frankly, I hope for Pocket PC's sake that PPC2003 is a major new release for software as well as hardware. Remember when the iPaq first was announced, and almost everyone was in awe at how it completely leapfrogged the competition? I think Pocket PC needs to do that as a whole with PPC2003, otherwise 2003 will not be a fun year for our favorite PDA platform.

[Nellwaskilled]

uhm, how do people get the idea that Zire71 has cought up with PPC? Is it the shiny blue case?

.It has only 13MB accessible with no flash ROM. (Try adding little more memory and see how the price ballon)
.The screen is Sony's TG hi res screen.
.it uses OMAP310. (Average top of the line smartphones has more power than that.)
. no video accelerator or CF port.
. no audio recording capability.
.vga camera is nice, but all japanese advance cellphone has that for a gimmick.

the Z71 size itself is BIGGER than h2200, let alone h1910.

-----------
Tungsten|C? is it even worth discussing? no stereo out, no replaceable battery, no CF slot, all that for $499?

that's like buying E740 with the headphone and CF socket plugged with chewing gum and the battery compartment duck tapped. (and if you think E740 has sad old fashioned 64MB memory unlike its bigger brother, then T|C has only 51MB accessible)

I would say POS have reached parity or leaped over PPC when it can come up with a model as small as h1910 with full 64MB, built in BT, ......AND the camera.

on top of that of course it has to match top of the line PPC softwares like textmaker, pIE, pMVP, pArtist, emulators etc....

but they better hurry up before the ppc2K3 come out in June and a wave of new class of network apps show up and they'll be behind again.

[Deslock]

Hyperluminal, what's interesting to me about your post is that I prefer Palm's software and I switched from Palm to PPC for hardware reasons. These new devices are cool, but you still can't get a Palm with a large screen that weighs &lt;6 ounces. In fact, the HP1910 is still the only handheld with a bright, vibrant 320x240 in an ergonomic, 4.2 oz formfactor.

So while some PPC users are looking at these specs saying "Wifi, keyboard, wow! If it only ran PPC...", I'm saying "400 MHz, PalmOS5, wow! If it only ditched the keyboard and wifi, lost an ounce or two, and had 480x320...". To me, the upcoming Garmin i3600 is still more interesting (but a bit pricey): http://www.garmin.com/products/iQue3600/

[Janak Parekh]

Hyperluminal, what's interesting to me about your post is that I prefer Palm's software and I switched from Palm to PPC for hardware reasons. These new devices are cool, but you still can't get a Palm with a large screen that weighs &lt;6 ounces. In fact, the HP1910 is still the only handheld with a bright, vibrant 320x240 in an ergonomic, 4.2 oz formfactor.
Well, one thing that annoyed me (as well as a few others) about today's announcement is the fact that the Zire 71 doesn't do soft Graffiti. Seeing as how Graffiti 2 was implemented, the whole silkscreen idea seems pretty quaint at this point. Is Palm hung up on square resolutions?

--janak

[Hyperluminal]

Deslock, yeah, that's funny. For me, if I could get a Sony NX70V with PPC OS, I buy one in a heartbeat (well, if it had more than 16 MB of RAM).

That's right, these have Graffiti 2, don't they?

[kfluet]

320x320 isn't double than 320x240

It is if you remove the graffiti pad. When you open the Input Space in Pocket PC, the actual viewable area is 240x240.

Ah yes, throw away part of the screen to make a non point, talked like a true palmie Foo.

Dude PPC´s dont have more memory, throw away 48MB and youre stuck with 16MB just like a Palm.

Zealotry aside, I think the "double" idea comes from the soft-grafitti Clies (NZ, NX) and the Garmin, which have 320x480 screens. That really is double 320x240.

The big thing that brought me to WinCE/PocketPC in the first place, and that won't let me go back to Palm, is Calligrapher/Transcriber. Natural handwriting is the PocketPC killer feature IMHO.

[Janak Parekh]

The big thing that brought me to WinCE/PocketPC in the first place, and that won't let me go back to Palm, is Calligrapher/Transcriber. Natural handwriting is the PocketPC killer feature IMHO.
Ah, that's an interesting point! I wonder if Calligrapher will now be ported to the Palm OS, seeing as how the new processors can handle it. Or maybe the Calligrapher folks have an exclusive license on Pocket PC, thereby receiving the huge license fees for Transcriber?

I do think Palm needs to implement handwriting recognition. A SIP like what Pocket PCs or Sony devices have wouldn't be a terrible idea either.

--janak

[kfluet]

The big thing that brought me to WinCE/PocketPC in the first place, and that won't let me go back to Palm, is Calligrapher/Transcriber. Natural handwriting is the PocketPC killer feature IMHO.
Ah, that's an interesting point! I wonder if Calligrapher will now be ported to the Palm OS, seeing as how the new processors can handle it. Or maybe the Calligrapher folks have an exclusive license on Pocket PC, thereby receiving the huge license fees for Transcriber?

I do think Palm needs to implement handwriting recognition. A SIP like what Pocket PCs or Sony devices have wouldn't be a terrible idea either.

--janak

I'm not sure who really owns the software in Transcriber. My impression was that Microsoft bought the software (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/1999/Oct99/MSVademPR.asp) from Vadem outright. It is confusing how Phatware and Calligrapher fit into the picture. I would guess that due to Microsoft's involvement, there is no way you are going to see Calligrapher on Palm.

Now, if Palm could license the Newton handwriting recognition from Apple...

[Scott R]

Where is the Pocket PC with an integrated thumbboard? The online possibilities of a T|C with its integrated WiFi, thumbboard, and vibration are endless. It could be a compelling IM and email solution -- walk into a Starbucks, and pull this thing out of your pocket. The only Pocket PC solution that comes close right now is the Jornada 568 keyboard, and that still makes it nearly unpocketable.
This is where Palm's square screen and fixed input panel has worked to their advantage. You can't integrate a thumbboard into a rectangular portrait screen device without making it too long.

Scott

[Scott R]

That said, the reason I wouldn't go back to Palm is because I couldn't stand not being able to asign work AND home addresses to Contacts. That really does suck, and is a major reason I stick with my Jornada. If you can do this on a Palm, and sych to Outlook, I'd be interested to know.
Pretty off-topic but this one has been mentioned a few times in this thread, so...It depends on what you need to accomplish via Outlook. You can rename one of the Palm's custom fields to "Work addr" and store it there. It will get stored in Outlook when you sync, though it's akward to edit custom fields within Outlook.

Scott

[marlof]

Since I'm using a Mac, I like to keep a Palm device on the side to get PIM info from my WinXP box to the iBook. To test how far it would take me, I've added tons of software, and used the unit as my main device. I was pretty impressed (Datebk5 rocks!), but after two weeks, I did exchange it again for a Pocket PC.

So far my biggest problem is the lack of multitasking in the OS. When I'm checking my two main POP3 e-mail accounts over GPRS that might take a minute or so. I like to do to other stuff until all e-mail is downloaded, like checking my schedule. Somehow, this is not possible on my m505, and from others I hear this is also not possible with PalmOS 5 devices. I thought that if that's the case, I'll wait for OS 6 before I'll try another Palm. But I must admit, that I don't know if I could hold back if I see a Palm Zire 71 in store. It does look like a cool device. :) The T|C is not for me, since I'm not into thumbboards.

[Scott R]

Ah yes, throw away part of the screen to make a non point, talked like a true palmie Foo.
Comparing screen resolutions between a Palm and PPC isn't as simple as 240x320 vs 320x320. You almost have to compare them twice. One with the SIP visible, in which case it's 240x240 vs 320x320. The other with the SIP down, in which case it's 240x320 vs 320x320 + the fixed input panel. While people may despise the fixed input panel, because it can't be used for "other things," it can't be completely discounted either.

Scott

[Scott R]

My personal opinion about both of these devices is that they're quite impressive but neither meet my personal needs. My biggest complaint is probably the lack of integrated BT. I'd like to see BT become ubiquitous and the T|C loses much of its value once you leave a Wi-Fi zone. The most impressive thing about them, IMO, is that Palm has for once priced some devices sensibly at launch. Though given the current state of the economy, one could say that they're still priced too high to sell in large numbers. Unfortunately, in this economy, the original Zire will continue to be the #1 seller.

Scott

[Timothy Rapson]

In fact, the only thing PPC has right now is software. Palm OS just wasn't designed to work with this stuff, in fact it was designed specifically not to deal with these kinds of features. .


How true it is!

I want TextMaker, PocketArtist, PalBum, and PocketWorldInfo and Atlas. My 66MZ non-multi-tasking Clie NR would probably be fast enough to run them, but since most Palm OS models only have 8 meg and 33MZ, no one has developed such powerful programs. There is no good third party photo manipulation program for the OS that now has 4 models with cameras built in. Oh the irony of it all. Palm really has some catching up to do in ARM level programs available.


On the subject of screen resolutions. The Palm guys here are correct. The pixels on the hi-res Palms are half the size of those on the PPCs. Anyone can see it easily when looking at the screens. The pixels on the Palms are virtually free of stairstepping. Most normal eyes at normal viewing distance will easily see the difference.

The way to show this mathmatically is to forget about the presence or lack of virtual grafitti. Assuming the screens are all about 2 inches wide, on any square inch of the Palm's screen you will see a
standard Palm OS 4 low res model has 80 x 80 pixels, = 6,400
the PPC medium res model will have 107 by 120 = 12,840
while the Palm OS 5s high res will have 160 by 160 = 25,600 (*note numbers corrected @6:00 AM April 24,2003*) pixels on each square inch of the display. (BTW, the area of the screen of the PPC with the text entry area up is actually 214 x 240 pixels, not 240 x 240) I once thought the PPC QVGA screens were all that a palm sized PDA really needed. After using the my Clie, I don't think I could go back to medium res QVGA. I have seen the second generation transflectives and if I used one everyday, I don't think I could go back to a reflective, though I once thought they were the bomb too. (But OH, that Casio HAST was beautiful in any book! And that was a LONG time ago in PDA screen terms.)

And the biggest thing Palm needs to fix is still broken. Native File Formats! It is maddening. WordSmith has taken to syncing my desktop created documents whenever it feels like it. All the PDA originated docs come over to the desktop fine, but the desktop ones will go onto the Clie only one in five times. What could the reason be for that?! If the Palm OS could simply address native file formats, I could just put them on the Memory Stink and use them. Now, for workarounds and reinstalls, and letters to BlueNomad, etc. The sillyness of having to find my photos, docs, and BugMe screens wherever a portal puts them and not be able to access some files from the desktop at all (Maxilaris Notes) is just plan maddening!

It sure is nice to see folks here on a dedicated PPC board can have a nice discussion of Palm OS models. So many such threads used to always get so nasty.

[Fishie]

Ah yes, throw away part of the screen to make a non point, talked like a true palmie Foo.
Comparing screen resolutions between a Palm and PPC isn't as simple as 240x320 vs 320x320. You almost have to compare them twice. One with the SIP visible, in which case it's 240x240 vs 320x320. The other with the SIP down, in which case it's 240x320 vs 320x320 + the fixed input panel. While people may despise the fixed input panel, because it can't be used for "other things," it can't be completely discounted either.

Scott

Sure I can, in fact I just did.

I couldnt stand that thing on my Clie.

The more pixels per inch ya have the better, especially when combined with a killer screen.

The Japanese get 4inch screens with full VGA res, those things are incredibly and even better then the screen on the Intermec 6651/Sharp telios.

[bdegroodt]

While we're on the PPC shipping with 128MB, here's a page (http://www.pocketpcitalia.com/cms3/templates/PPC-NEWS.ASP?articleid=306&zoneid=1) that was passed around today at the MS PPC chat. Not making any claims on its accuracy, and I sure hope HP comes up with more than 128 MB RAM as a reason for a new model release.

[bdeli]

Not making any claims on its accuracy, and I sure hope HP comes up with more than 128 MB RAM as a reason for a new model release.

And a whopping price to match as well!

[bdegroodt]

Not making any claims on its accuracy, and I sure hope HP comes up with more than 128 MB RAM as a reason for a new model release.

And a whopping price to match as well!

I didn't see a price. What did you find?

[bdeli]

Not making any claims on its accuracy, and I sure hope HP comes up with more than 128 MB RAM as a reason for a new model release.

And a whopping price to match as well!

I didn't see a price. What did you find?

Was just being sarcastic! :lol:

I am just assuming that the price will be over $700....but if HP now wants to compete the price has to go down on both the 545x and the 1910 models. Cheapest 5450 here in Canada goes for $800 US including taxes and shipping. Similarly a Tungsten T which I purchased three weeks ago costed me $333 US.

So which one consumers/corporate customers will decide to pick?

[Kirkaiya]

This is a first.

This is the first Palm branded product, I would ever have considered buying. This is nothing new, but it is half the list price of the Sony model and lacks only the soft grafitti of those $600 list Sonys.

If it had soft grafitti (can't really go back to no FITALY) and 64 meg RAM it would be about as perfect (for my desires) as a PDA gets.

$300? I expect these will be sold out for quite a while. First time for Palm to do that since maybe the Palm Vx

I second that. I looked at the specs on Palms site, read the review on Brighthand, and I think it ( the Zire 71) looks like a slick, well-made little unit. I love the integrated camera.

It's marginally thicker and heavier than my iPaq 1910 (which is the perfect form-factor, I think, on the market today), but in return the Zire 71 has a higher-resolution screen, integrated digi-cam, and (I think) the SD slot is SDIO, meaning future patches *should* enable SD-WLAN, SD-BT, or whatnot.

The only real reason I wouldn't buy this (aside from my already having a 1910) are the small RAM on-board (13 MB of DRAM, while not horrible, really should have been 32 w/27 avail), and I *really really* like soft-graffiti areas. I prefer a 240x320 over 320x320 if the viewable area is larger. HandEra did this long ago with PalmOS, why is this such a difficult concept for Palm to get their minds around.

Sigh.. I *am* thinking of getting a Z71 for my wife, to replace her Palm Vx, which has been a champ reliability-wise (she's used it for 2 years now, I think? I won it in a PDABuzz contest back then....)

[Nellwaskilled]

marginally thicker? That sucker is almost as thick as a DELL!

ViewSonic V35 0.4"
iPaq h1910 0.5"

Zire 71 0.67"
Dell Axim 0.70"

[Kirkaiya]

Hyperluminal, what's interesting to me about your post is that I prefer Palm's software and I switched from Palm to PPC for hardware reasons. These new devices are cool, but you still can't get a Palm with a large screen that weighs &lt;6 ounces. In fact, the HP1910 is still the only handheld with a bright, vibrant 320x240 in an ergonomic, 4.2 oz formfactor.

So while some PPC users are looking at these specs saying "Wifi, keyboard, wow! If it only ran PPC...", I'm saying "400 MHz, PalmOS5, wow! If it only ditched the keyboard and wifi, lost an ounce or two, and had 480x320...". To me, the upcoming Garmin i3600 is still more interesting (but a bit pricey): http://www.garmin.com/products/iQue3600/

Damn, that Garmin unit is pretty damn impressive, actually - not much bigger than the Zire 71, but built-in GPS and a 320x480 color screen, 32 MB RAM, 200 MHz ARM, *soft grafitti area* (finally!) and did I mention GPS????? That's actually a little tempting - and I've used older Garmin GPS units, they were all totally rugged, I wonder how this one stacks up? (and running PalmOS 5 too... interesting).

[Kirkaiya]

marginally thicker? That sucker is almost as thick as a DELL!

ViewSonic V35 0.4"
iPaq h1910 0.5"

Zire 71 0.67"
Dell Axim 0.70"

It (Zire 71) is, in fact, nearly the exact thickness of my old (and cracked-screen) iPaq 3650.

I think the difference between .5" and .67" is not immense - I mean, we're talking about 17/100ths of an inch. Maybe "slighly thicker" would have been a better choice of words. And as a previous owner of the Viewsonic V35, which cracked (screen) neatly in 2 with the greatest of ease, there is a danger in making devices too thin for the materials used.

My 1910 seems more solid all around, aside from the battery-cover (flimsy plastic).

Anyway - the Zire 71 is also shorter than my 1910, and about the same width, so overall, I think it would be nearly as pocketable - have to check one out at the store though :-)

[Nellwaskilled]

mmm.....

http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/images/zire-71-4.jpg


http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/images/1910-12.jpg

[Skoobouy]

Blast! All this new development is happening and it's making my upgrade decision really difficult! Maybe I just won't.

I see nothing wrong with the PalmOS machines; just like I see nothing wrong with Macintosh machines. But I can't use either, really, because I'm not used to them. I'm too madly in love with Transcriber, TextMaker, WMA music, emulators, and such. But this all makes me terribly depressed, because QVGA seems to be going quickly out of style. (Quickly? We've had it since the Cassiopeia E-10 (http://www.pdabuzz.com/Reviews/Casio~Cassiopeia_E-10.html) and the Nino 200 (http://www.pdabuzz.com/Reviews/Philips~Nino_200.html)!)

Cameras and thumb keboards are no great advantage for me. In the case of things like that, I think a modular approach is much better. That's why I would never get an NX or NZ. Well, that and their RAM limitation.

But resolution, resolution, resolution. I don't need Bluetooth personally, but for competition's sake, take away our stair-stepping! Please!

[Janak Parekh]

It sure is nice to see folks here on a dedicated PPC board can have a nice discussion of Palm OS models. So many such threads used to always get so nasty.
Well, for a change I think Palm did something right :D

Scott - agreed on the pricing -- the T|C's initial price of $499 was a very smart move, IMHO. Palm needs to regain some high-end market from Sony, who's absolutely killing them right now, and I think this was a fairly aggressive pricing schedule for precisely that reason.

I think the difference between .5" and .67" is not immense
And yet, that comparison enveloped this and other boards back when the 3650 came out. :) This is my point now -- size is finally starting to take a backseat; so long as the unit is "pocketable", that works. Having said that, apparently the Zire 71 has no screen cover either, so you'd need a case which would make it thicker.

--janak

[bdegroodt]

This is my point now -- size is finally starting to take a backseat; so long as the unit is "pocketable", that works.
--janak

You mean all those emails I got this morning about "Size Matters" aren't true? 8O

[Janak Parekh]

You mean all those emails I got this morning about "Size Matters" aren't true? 8O
There's so many ways I could take that question... I think I'm not going to go either way. :lol:

--janak

[ExtremeSIMS]

Blast! All this new development is happening and it's making my upgrade decision really difficult! Maybe I just won't.

I see nothing wrong with the PalmOS machines; just like I see nothing wrong with Macintosh machines. But I can't use either, really, because I'm not used to them. I'm too madly in love with Transcriber, TextMaker, WMA music, emulators, and such. But this all makes me terribly depressed, because QVGA seems to be going quickly out of style. (Quickly? We've had it since the Cassiopeia E-10 (http://www.pdabuzz.com/Reviews/Casio~Cassiopeia_E-10.html) and the Nino 200 (http://www.pdabuzz.com/Reviews/Philips~Nino_200.html)!)

Cameras and thumb keboards are no great advantage for me. In the case of things like that, I think a modular approach is much better. That's why I would never get an NX or NZ. Well, that and their RAM limitation.

But resolution, resolution, resolution. I don't need Bluetooth personally, but for competition's sake, take away our stair-stepping! Please!

I agree. I am used to both Macs, Windows, *nix, etc., but my preferred business desktop is Mac OS. It's what I have grown used to working on since I moved to OS X.
Ditto the Pocket PC - I haved used Palm OS in the past, but my short term experience with the Palm OS again made me realize I prefer Pocket PC. However, I do want to see higher resolution, CUSTOM FIELDS in the addressbook app, and Mac syncing. :)

[myung]

Photos of Zire 71 vs 1910 :mrgreen:

http://www2.beareyes.com.cn/cgi-bin/joytlun.pl?id=n&job=post&numb_can=44368&ceng_can=0&p=2003042144368&his=

[bdegroodt]

Photos of Zire 71 vs 1910 :mrgreen:

http://www2.beareyes.com.cn/cgi-bin/joytlun.pl?id=n&job=post&numb_can=44368&ceng_can=0&p=2003042144368&his=

I see the Palm browser retained the web page format, while IE did with it as it pleased.

[ExtremeSIMS]

Photos of Zire 71 vs 1910 :mrgreen:

http://www2.beareyes.com.cn/cgi-bin/joytlun.pl?id=n&job=post&numb_can=44368&ceng_can=0&p=2003042144368&his=

I see the Palm browser retained the web page format, while IE did with it as it pleased.

Netfront is the browser .

[Nellwaskilled]

Photos of Zire 71 vs 1910 :mrgreen:

http://www2.beareyes.com.cn/cgi-bin/joytlun.pl?id=n&job=post&numb_can=44368&ceng_can=0&p=2003042144368&his=

I see the Palm browser retained the web page format, while IE did with it as it pleased.

It's not an http browser. it's netfront, a webserver client. Kinda like thunderhawk. with only 13MB of memory it's very hard to have a real browser which sometimes need 10-11 MB of dynamic caching.

[bdegroodt]

Photos of Zire 71 vs 1910 :mrgreen:

http://www2.beareyes.com.cn/cgi-bin/joytlun.pl?id=n&job=post&numb_can=44368&ceng_can=0&p=2003042144368&his=

I see the Palm browser retained the web page format, while IE did with it as it pleased.

It's not an http browser. it's netfront, a webserver client. Kinda like thunderhawk. with only 13MB of memory it's very hard to have a real browser which sometimes need 10-11 MB of dynamic caching.

Sounds good to me. I love ThunderHawk. Hate its price, but love the browser. I can only hope IE makes half the gains TH has.

[Looxer]

What about added functionality and the ability to expand your device to limits beyond your imagination. To my knowledge, a Palm device doesn’t have add-on choice like in iPAQ Pocket PCs. With iPAQ sleeves you don’t only add additional memory but even additional peripherals such as modems and GPS modules. With the right sleeve, I could listen to 5GB worth of MP3s, put on a power-point presentation, or heck even use my iPAQ as a phone! They could add quite a bit of bulk to the device, but the added functionality made all of us loyal iPAQ users. iPAQ accessories were and continue to be the best selling Pocket PC accessories on the market. People can't get enough of the latest sleeves and cases… You can even choose not to carry all the additional bulk.

[Janak Parekh]

It's not an http browser. it's netfront, a webserver client. Kinda like thunderhawk. with only 13MB of memory it's very hard to have a real browser which sometimes need 10-11 MB of dynamic caching.
I can't speak for NetFront on Palms, but IE doesn't use 10-11MB of RAM -- you don't need that much. Moreover, NetFront on the Pocket PC is a standard standalone browser. (FWIW, I had a conventional web browser on my ancient 2MB pdQ many, many years ago. It compromised by not supporting graphics...)

What about added functionality and the ability to expand your device to limits beyond your imagination. To my knowledge, a Palm device doesn’t have add-on choice like in iPAQ Pocket PCs.
No debate, the iPAQ will remain the most expandable for the foreseeable future, and as such it has many applications in vertical markets. The fact that Pocket PCs also have broad CF support is important.

--janak

[bdeli]

What about added functionality and the ability to expand your device to limits beyond your imagination. To my knowledge, a Palm device doesn’t have add-on choice like in iPAQ Pocket PCs.

Palm have two expansion methods available to them - SDIO interface and the Palm Universal Connector found at the bottom of every Palm. For a whole list of expansion modules check this out - http://www.palm.com/products/accessories/peripherals/

[Jason Dunn]

The big thing that brought me to WinCE/PocketPC in the first place, and that won't let me go back to Palm, is Calligrapher/Transcriber. Natural handwriting is the PocketPC killer feature IMHO.
Ah, that's an interesting point! I wonder if Calligrapher will now be ported to the Palm OS, seeing as how the new processors can handle it. Or maybe the Calligrapher folks have an exclusive license on Pocket PC, thereby receiving the huge license fees for Transcriber?

I do think Palm needs to implement handwriting recognition. A SIP like what Pocket PCs or Sony devices have wouldn't be a terrible idea either.

--janak

I'm not sure who really owns the software in Transcriber. My impression was that Microsoft bought the software (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/1999/Oct99/MSVademPR.asp) from Vadem outright. It is confusing how Phatware and Calligrapher fit into the picture. I would guess that due to Microsoft's involvement, there is no way you are going to see Calligrapher on Palm.

Now, if Palm could license the Newton handwriting recognition from Apple...

Microsoft is a part-owner in Calligrapher, but not a complete owner. I think they just made an investment. In that light, I seriously doubt we'd ever see Calligrapher or Transcriber for the Palm.

[Ramin]

I'm not a huge fan of their decision to architect these as two separate devices. For example, the Tungsten C, which is clearly aimed at the Corporate market, doesn't have stereo audio (even if you use headphones). What on earth were they thinking?

According to the Palm Handheld Comparison Chart (http://www.palm.com/products/family.epl), the Palm Tungsten C (http://www.palm.com/products/handhelds/tungsten-c/) has a "Stereo Headphone Jack" (look under the Special Features section). So does it or doesn't it have stereo audio? Could someone clarify?

[bdeli]

According to the Palm Handheld Comparison Chart (http://www.palm.com/products/family.epl), the Palm Tungsten C (http://www.palm.com/products/handhelds/tungsten-c/) has a "Stereo Headphone Jack" (look under the Special Features section). So does it or doesn't have stereo audio? Could someone clarify?

No - it does not.

[Nellwaskilled]

stereo according to Palm definition of course.

two channel of mono out, instead of left and right channel.
A mono polyphonics! oh my a more advance stereo :D

[Janak Parekh]

According to the Palm Handheld Comparison Chart (http://www.palm.com/products/family.epl), the Palm Tungsten C (http://www.palm.com/products/handhelds/tungsten-c/) has a "Stereo Headphone Jack" (look under the Special Features section). So does it or doesn't it have stereo audio? Could someone clarify?
From what I've read on various sites, people who actually bought the devices and tried it out only got mono, not stereo. I'd love for it to be wrong (why would they do this?) but I'm not optimistic.

--janak

[Looxer]

What about added functionality and the ability to expand your device to limits beyond your imagination. To my knowledge, a Palm device doesn’t have add-on choice like in iPAQ Pocket PCs.

Palm have two expansion methods available to them - SDIO interface and the Palm Universal Connector found at the bottom of every Palm. For a whole list of expansion modules check this out - http://www.palm.com/products/accessories/peripherals/

iPAQ offers more than SDIO and CF! iPAQ expansion sleeves also came out with not only single but dual PCMCIA and dual compact flash slots, not only that, plus extra removable battery and a screen cover, there is a long list of varieties of expansion sleeves... there is no PALM device can top that so far!

[bdeli]

iPAQ offers more than SDIO and CF! iPAQ expansion sleeves also came out with not only single but dual PCMCIA and dual compact flash slots, not only that, plus extra removable battery and a screen cover, there is a long list of varieties of expansion sleeves... there is no PALM device can top that so far!

It is true that only the iPAQ can have dual expansion sleeves + battery etc. I own a CF+ which comes with an additional battery and use the CF slot for my Wifi card, but saying so, it is a brick.

In regards to expansion modules for Palm, they have SD cards for BT, Margi Presenter cards, Veo Camera (which I should get one in the mail anytime soon) and when Sandisk gets them in the market SD Wifi cards.

There are loads of other addons for the Palm Universal Connector which range from modems, GPS, Printers, Bar Code Scanners etc - same stuff you can get with the iPAQ sans PCMCIA HD and GPRS.

[Looxer]

In regards to expansion modules for Palm, they have SD cards for BT, Margi Presenter cards, Veo Camera (which I should get one in the mail anytime soon) and when Sandisk gets them in the market SD Wifi cards.

It was a great idea from Palm to provide the universal connector gives the customer wide range of options. iPAQ expansion slot also a clever idea because When it comes to connectivity you connect the expansion pack to the device it becomes as if it is all-in-one, one unite, you don’t need to carry with you cables, wires, connectors and stuff that can be lost here and there. I recall that the expansion packs are Compaq's answer to the Handspring Springboard modules; however iPAQ sleeves are much superior in my opinion.

Palm Zire 71 is cool, but I don’t need a PDA with built-in camera! I don’t support this idea at all. I’d rather buy an SDIO camera and connect it, and when there is a better version I can replace it, and when I don’t want to have it I can remove it. So the Zire 71 includes a camera which increases the overall thickness and weight, but mainly you cannot upgrade it! This is just a matter of personal preference :)

[Ed Hansberry]

It was a great idea from Palm to provide the universal connector gives the customer wide range of options.
Interesting history behind that. One of Palm's biggest third-party addon makers (I don't think biggest from a standpoint of volume, but certainly huge in terms of visibility, influence and financial size) was Kodak and their PalmPix snapon for the Palm III. Kodak wasn't too happy with having to redo it for the Palm V connector and befor the M500 shipped, pretty much put their foot down and said that they wanted a connector that Palm would commit to for a few years and models so they didn't have to keep redoing it, carrying more inventory and styles for essentially the same thing. The Universal Connector was born and Kodak bailed out within 12 months anyway due to lackluster sales.

The moral of this story is, unfortunately, most OEMs love to change things so they can get more revenue - and F A T margins on accessories.

[Hyperluminal]

By the way, I just saw a Tungsten C at Circuit City. It's light, but big, and it feels very cheap. The plastic just feels very flimsy, much more so than any PPC or even other brand of Palm device. And while 320x320 is technically higher res than PPCs, the 3.8" PPC screen is still much nicer to look at, and shows data better, than the Palm 2.5" square.