PalmSource CEO: Dell Doesn't Worry Us

[Ed Hansberry]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://news.com.com/2100-1040-965338.html?tag=fd_top' target='_blank'>http://news.com.com/2100-1040-96533...html?tag=fd_top</a><br /><br /></div>"PalmSource CEO David Nagel was in London to promote the Palm OS 5 operating system for mobile devices. "Dell certainly will have an impact in the handheld computing market...but mainly because of their distribution and sales (expertise). They will bring Microsoft Pocket PC pricing closer to that of Palm (OS-based devices), but even Dell can't close that gap completely." <br /><br />Can't close the gap completely? Let us take a look at that.<br /><br />The Dell Axim X5 comes in two flavors. Both have a transflective screen, CF slot and an SD slot (thought not SDIO). The $249 version has 32MB of RAM and ROM and the $349 version has 64MB of RAM and 48MB of ROM. Those become $199 and $299 repectively after the $50 rebate available at launch.<br /><br />What does PalmSource offer us? Well, on the Sony Clie PEG T665C/D, a $349 offering, we get a 16MB RAM device,<!> a Memory Stick slot and the ability to play MP3s. Keep in mind Memory Sticks are limited to 128MB right now, whereas CF slots go to 1GB and SD slots are starting to see 512MB cards with 1GB available in a few months. So, 2-4 hours of music on the T665, 12-24 hours on the Axim, depending on the bitrate of the recordings. The $249 Sony Clie PEG SJ30 is very similar to the T665, but has no music capabilities. Both Sony's have a 320X320 screen, compared to the Pocket PC's 240X320.<br /><br />From Palm Inc, we have the Tungsten T. A 16MB device coming in at $499. It has integrated bluetooth and an SDIO slot, but no music player. They tell us a third party app will be available in the future to play music, taking up some of that precious 16MB of space. It also has a 320X320 screen, <a href="http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7941">complete with dust</a>. Palm also has the $199 (after rebate) M130, a 160X160 screen with an <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3084">unknown amount of colors</a>, somewhere above 256 but below 64,000. :roll: It also has 16MB of RAM and an SD slot, but no music capabilities at all.<br /><br />Note that the PalmOS devices have a nice suite of software that allows you to view and edit Excel and Word documents, sometimes an email application and maybe a messenger client. All of that, of course, goes in that small 16MB of RAM whereas the Pocket PCs have all of that <b><i>and more</i></b> in ROM.<br /><br />So Mr. Nagle, the Dell and other sub $300 devices don't "close the gap?" I'd say they not only close it, but with a resounding <i>THUD</i> when doing so. :) "Nagel's main message, however, was that Microsoft will back a market of clone, Wintel-based handhelds, whereas Palm is looking at allowing manufacturers to maintain profit margins through various types of specialized devices." I'd say that is one heck of a confusing message. In my opinion, the beauty of the Pocket PC is every device has an astounding base feature set. 240X320 screen, voice recording, Windows Media Player, Messenger, Pocket Word/Excel, VPN, Terminal Server client, MS Reader/Audible support, Inbox, full screen handwriting recognition, soft input panel, a simple to use file system for storage cards, Pocket Internet Explorer, etc., all in ROM. Palm's "specialized devices" means some have a few of those features, others might have one or two, and none have all of them.<br /><br />This is just another verse in the old old song "You don't need it until we have it." I can't wait to see how the OS6 verse comes out when Palm Source finally opens up the available RAM, the ability to multitask and puts in a real file system.

[taxlax]

They (palm), just don't get it. They figure that because they have had a headstart in the business sector, that businesses will keep buying their inferior products. People aren't stupid and they will figure it out. In fact, my 1000+ person law firm was one of those that have finally come around. Despite my objections (no one listens to a tax lawyer), our IT department went with the Palm as our firm supported handheld. When the other lawyers saw my snazzy Ipaq, they were jealous. Now after a year and a half of cavetching on my part, we are phasing out the Palms. I have a feeling that we will not be the only ones.

[mookie123]

funny thing talking about wintel clone. If wallstreet ever hears he is saying that, Palm Inc is finish. Nobody will bet against wintel clone.

Plus the interview is done before he ever see that Samsung referance design. It would be interesting if Dell sign up, and ask the same question again. See if he still says "What? me worry?"

[Ed Hansberry]

They (palm), just don't get it.
Reminds me of a quote I saw here - http://wirelessnewsfactor.com/perl/story/19899.html - another Foo source. :lol: "Having the biggest percentage of not very much is not a great business plan. "

[Kirkaiya]

While I agree with Ed's arguments - mainly being that, bang for the buck, the gap has been closed and then some - one could argue that, technically, Nagel is right: Palm sells a entry-level model (the Zire) for $99, and so technically, there is a "price gap"

I know, I know - the Zire is a little piece of ****, with virtually no memory, mono screen, and I'm not sure what else it's been stripped off, but the fact remains that it runs Palm OS, and it's under $100. The fact that it's apples to oranges will be lost on many consumers, until they look at them both.

I think that if Samsung or some other OEM comes out with a model based on Samsung's design that sells for $139, running the full PPC2002 OS, and with an SDIO slot, Nagel will have a hard time proclaiming a "gap" with a straight face (I imagine it took a biting of the tongue this time).

Speaking of which - Jason, have you heard any news of when the Viewsonic will ship? (other than the "mid-November" on their site)???

thanx!

[szamot]

Great strategy Nagel - there is not problem in the world that is so big that you can't ran away from it. I suppse the best way of dealing with news like that is to denay that it exists. R. I . P Palm.....I always wondered how morons like that get to be where they are at.

[Ed@Brighthand]

Foo Fighter, let's be realistic for a second. What else was he going to say? "Oh yeah, with Dell coming in, everyone else is doomed. I've already written my resume." Of course he isn't going to state or even imply that a new competitor is more than his company can handle. To do otherwise would be stupid.

One of the jobs of a CEO is to be a corporate cheerleader. Dell's entry into handhelds has generated a tremendous amount of hype. As the head of PalmSource, part of his job is to try to deflate some of that hype.

Mr. Nagel is right when he said, There is a reticence (on the part of manufacturers) to commit to a single platform." The director of worldwide mobile products for Dell recently said, "The possibility of us producing a Palm OS-based model is not out of the question for the future."

[PlayAgain?]

I didn't read that as a feature on why Palm is betetr than PocketPC. Good luck to anybody who tries to compare devices from each camp - what I saw was a criticism of Microsoft's model, that they are treating the mobile market like the PC market.

The PocketPC may be the tool for people who want features, if the people who want features are in a minority, then no matter how whizz-bang the PocketPC is, it's not going to sell as well.

I saw it more as a go at Microsoft's pitch and the deals they offer manufacturers rather than the functionality they deliver for consumers.

[Foo Fighter]

Foo Fighter, let's be realistic for a second. What else was he going to say?

I didn't realize I was being unrealistic...considering I haven't even posted to this discussion yet. Are you replying to someone else?

If you want my opinion (no matter how unrealistic it may be) I don't expect Dell to have much of an impact at all on the PDA market. Most likely, Dell will use its world class direct model to market this product, which will meet with limited success. Costco and Dell Kiosks in malls will be the only outlet for consumers to try and buy, and that leaves a lot of ground to cover.

Then there is the form factor issue. It's too big/bulky for mainstream users. PDA geeks and IT workers might like it, but the average consumer wants something small, thin, and light.

I could be wrong, but my gut tells me that Dell is more of a threat to HP or Toshiba than either Palm or Sony. The biggest long-term impact Dell's presence will have on Palm licensees is force lower pricing on high-end products. But I'll wager you that Palm's Tungsten stays at $499 for at least another 3-4 months. Palm isn't running scared.

We'll see.

[Pony99CA]

Foo Fighter, let's be realistic for a second. What else was he going to say? "Oh yeah, with Dell coming in, everyone else is doomed. I've already written my resume." Of course he isn't going to state or even imply that a new competitor is more than his company can handle. To do otherwise would be stupid.

One of the jobs of a CEO is to be a corporate cheerleader. Dell's entry into handhelds has generated a tremendous amount of hype. As the head of PalmSource, part of his job is to try to deflate some of that hype.

Bingo! Calling him "clueless" may just show how clueless the caller is. :-)

No matter what happens (unless you're Enron or MCI), you're going to try to spin something to make you look better. I suspect Nagel may be lying through his teeth, but I doubt he's clueless.

Steve

[mookie123]

Foo Fighter, let's be realistic for a second. What else was he going to say? "Oh yeah, with Dell coming in, everyone else is doomed. I've already written my resume." Of course he isn't going to state or even imply that a new competitor is more than his company can handle. To do otherwise would be stupid.

One of the jobs of a CEO is to be a corporate cheerleader. Dell's entry into handhelds has generated a tremendous amount of hype. As the head of PalmSource, part of his job is to try to deflate some of that hype.

Mr. Nagel is right when he said, There is a reticence (on the part of manufacturers) to commit to a single platform." The director of worldwide mobile products for Dell recently said, "The possibility of us producing a Palm OS-based model is not out of the question for the future."

cheerleading is out, only the paranoid survives. I rather hear Palm say, yes we are watching the situation carefully, and we have strategy. Anybody in the industry knows what Dell is capable of, so cheerleading is definitely not the right attitude.

His statement indicates that Palm Inc has no strategy and with the way he spins how it will affect only PPC pricing structure, he doesn't seems to even aware the magnitude of his problem. (hint, it's 1M unit annually going to flood the market) If they think iPAQ is a problem with 800k annual production first year at $499 price range and snuff up m505, wait until Dell finish up the job in $200-300 price range.


PS. I take it Brighthand.com battery test on T|T vs iPaq is not reproducable? (ie. a joke?)

PSS. speaking of hype, what happen to all the Tungsten multimedia capability and 3 times battery life?

[Foo Fighter]

Calling him "clueless" may just show how clueless the caller is. :-)

I'd like to know where I called him anything? Jeez, I am being criticized for statements I never made. :?

[ECOslin]

Dell handhelds to be Microsoft Pocket PCs

AUSTIN (AP) — For its emerging line of handheld computers, Dell Computer has spurned the handheld software offered by Palm, and instead chosen Microsoft's Pocket PC software. The new Dell Axim X5 handhelds, which go on sale next Monday for under $300 — after a $50 rebate — aim to take market share from Microsoft-fueled devices made by competitors Hewlett-Packard, Toshiba and Casio.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/techreviews/products/handhelds_pdas/2002-11-11-dell-handheld_x.htm

Makes choosing, the PocketPC OS over the Palm OS, sound like a bad thing.

Edward

[Ed Hansberry]

I'd like to know where I called him anything? Jeez, I am being criticized for statements I never made. :?
I think people are jumping on you for good measure. :wink: :lol:

[Foo Fighter]

Makes choosing, the PocketPC OS over the Palm OS, sound like a bad thing.

How so?

[Foo Fighter]

I think people are jumping on you for good measure. :wink: :lol:

In that case let me remind everyone.... "Every time you criticize Foo Fighter, God kills a kitten. Please...think of the kittens!" :P

[mookie123]

Dell handhelds to be Microsoft Pocket PCs

AUSTIN (AP) — For its emerging line of handheld computers, Dell Computer has spurned the handheld software offered by Palm, and instead chosen Microsoft's Pocket PC software. The new Dell Axim X5 handhelds, which go on sale next Monday for under $300 — after a $50 rebate — aim to take market share from Microsoft-fueled devices made by competitors Hewlett-Packard, Toshiba and Casio.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/techreviews/products/handhelds_pdas/2002-11-11-dell-handheld_x.htm

anybody read the article?

"Kort expects Dell to snag 30% of the U.S. handheld market next year by selling more than a billion units. "

It's one BILLION units!
One out of five persons on earth will own this puppy....
or maybe everybody in China will own one.

ok that was funny.

[Foo Fighter]

"Kort expects Dell to snag 30% of the U.S. handheld market next year by selling more than a billion units. "

Never going to happen, IMO.

[taxlax]

As much as I would like to see dell succeed, I don't think that will happen either.

[ThomasC22]

I'd like to know where I called him anything? Jeez, I am being criticized for statements I never made. :?

Yeah, and you and I are going to have a long talk some day for that stuff about my mother!

[szamot]

I think people are jumping on you for good measure. :wink: :lol:

In that case let me remind everyone.... "Every time you criticize Foo Fighter, God kills a kitten. Please...think of the kittens!" :P


Humm, more criticism of Foo Fighter = more dead cats = cheaper dim sum - there might be something there for those who like dim sum.

[Ed@Brighthand]

Foo Fighter, let's be realistic for a second. What else was he going to say?

I didn't realize I was being unrealistic...considering I haven't even posted to this discussion yet. Are you replying to someone else?

Sorry, you're listed as the source and I mistakenly thought you were also the author. My bad. And my apologies to Mr. Hansberry for accidentally attributing his comments to someone else.

[Ed Hansberry]

anybody read the article?

"Kort expects Dell to snag 30% of the U.S. handheld market next year by selling more than a billion units. "

It's one BILLION units!
HUGE misprint. SHould read million units. If Dell had 30% with one billion, that would mean the market would sell 3.3 billion units. LOL!

[Rirath]

Eh, my thoughts are simply anyone who believes the Palm propaganda and invests and/or cheerleads for em gets what they deserve. Enjoy the upcoming next few months Palm. :roll: There's gotta be a lot of nervous people right about now. :?

[Ed Hansberry]

Sorry, you're listed as the source and I mistakenly thought you were also the author. My bad. And my apologies to Mr. Hansberry for accidentally attributing his comments to someone else.

No prob. We attribute the source as the person who submitted the link. The link has the actual author of the article and the post has the person making the comments. But feel free to stop by and criticize Foo anytime. :wink:

[Foo Fighter]

Sorry, you're listed as the source and I mistakenly thought you were also the author.

Ah. Now it makes sense. I'm listed as the "source" because I submitted the link to this story to the news team. That's all.

[Foo Fighter]

But feel free to stop by and criticize Foo anytime. :wink:

In the words of the Klingon Imperial command..."Vork tach mik cha nich graht krudnit".

Translation: You are skating on thin ice, my friend.

[roberto_torres]

Note that the PalmOS devices have a nice suite of software that allows you to view and edit Excel and Word documents, sometimes an email application and maybe a messenger client. All of that, of course, goes in that small 16MB of RAM whereas the Pocket PCs have all of that and more in ROM.




Just because of that I still has to carry around a CLie. Documents to go for Palm makes Pocket office look buggy and underpowered. Documents to go offers perfect syncronization and most of the features of Desktop office. If Dataviz made a version for PPC I would trow my clie in the garbage and just use PPC.

[mookie123]

Dude...... PocketPC Thought is famous. It even make it to PalmInfo Center editorial.

--------------------
Editorial: New Pocket PC's, Same Old Story...

So while Pocket PC enthusiasts continue to bash Palm devices because of their “limited” RAM, let’s look at what really matters most… Besides games and office apps, it’s uncommon to find apps for the Palm OS larger than 150K, on the PPC side, it's hard to find any sort of app, smaller than 500K. …Dude, if you're getting a Dell you better get a big memory card and travel charger!

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=4562

the word 'bash' is linked to this PPCT thread.

[Programmer]

You have to remember the audience his is talking to.

I admit I didn't bother reading the original article but one point struck me. With Dell selling so cheaply and if other OEMs follow suit the price margin on a PPC will be razor thin. Palm can court other manufactures and resellers with a higher profit margin. That would be the direction they will be heading now.

I dont believe this strategy will help them survive in the long term but will help in the short term.

Robert

[Jason Dunn]

Speaking of which - Jason, have you heard any news of when the Viewsonic will ship?

Nope. I've heard the same thing you all have - November.

[Kati Compton]

anybody read the article?

"Kort expects Dell to snag 30% of the U.S. handheld market next year by selling more than a billion units. "

It's one BILLION units!
HUGE misprint. SHould read million units. If Dell had 30% with one billion, that would mean the market would sell 3.3 billion units. LOL!

And all in the U.Ss, since he's talking only about that market.

I mean, I know a lot of PDA-users here have multiple units, but that would be ridiculous! ;)

[mookie123]

I admit I didn't bother reading the original article but one point struck me. With Dell selling so cheaply and if other OEMs follow suit the price margin on a PPC will be razor thin. Palm can court other manufactures and resellers with a higher profit margin. That would be the direction they will be heading now.

HP, Dell, Toshiba and friends are computer makers who survive margin war. They jump on PDA because the original iPAQ margin is so fat. The worst thing can happen is PDA's margin will be as thin, but they still can win the "bundling and post sale" service war to enterprise. The same thing can't be said about Palm Inc. Palm need the fat margin to survive, prolonged price war will kill them. I mean what else do they going to sell? Dell can always bail out of PDA market if things go terribly wrong, but Palm...? (selling real estate maybe)

Who is Palm Inc courting as PDA maker beside Sony? their last big recruit, Asus isn't very successfull. Samsung is making PPC too.

So, not sure who is this big mystery manufacturer will be. Whatever Palm licensee can come up with, sure as hell HP/Dell can do the same thing with even thinner margin, just like Laptop war. There is no such thing as fat margin anymore in laptop, not even for Apple.

PDA will be the same, except worst.

[Jason Dunn]

Dude...... PocketPC Thought is famous. It even make it to PalmInfo Center editorial.

Cool. :lol: Ryan's a Palm loyalist, just like I'm a Pocket PC loyalist - you can't blame a wolf for being a wolf. :wink:

[SofaTater]

Here's another take on this story:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/28056.html

[MaximumPDA]

Wow, is it hot in here today or what?

Somebody needs to release a monochrome PPC 2002 device at Palm crippling price point. Competition is good and creates better gear for us. The days of $700 PocketPC devices are coming to a close, except for enterprise specific uses and hard core enthusiasts.

[PPCRules]

Great strategy Nagel - there is not problem in the world that is so big that you can't ran away from it. I suppse the best way of dealing with news like that is to denay that it exists. R. I . P Palm.....I always wondered how morons like that get to be where they are at.
Oh, but just wait until Microsoft passes 50% market share (and Palm can't try to explain away the numbers as meaning something else). Then we'll have Palm as the new poster child and all these people screaming about how horridly criminal Microsoft's business practices are, how Microsoft cheats and stomps on all these hard working little companies run by super intelligent leaders that were there first and had the best ideas but all that is lost now that Microsoft rips their rightful marketshare right out of their worked-to-the-bone hands, etc, etc.

At least we won't have hear about Netscape as much anymore.

[entropy1980]

All we need is $25 Greyscale Pocket PC to put Palm out! :twisted: LOL
The fact is people are willing to make trade-offs in exchange for price. For years we've been hearing (charlie brown voice ) "wah wah Palm is cheaper, better battery life, and more compatible apps" wah wah" now that OS 5 has brought Palm more expensive, worse battery life and not to mention some apps not running.... why not go with a Pocket PC? The intuitiveness argument is BS.... if you can and do use Outlook on your desktop you'll be fine with a Pocket PC. Palm and co. are running out issues to claim an advantage and if the don't get scared or at least get respect well Sony will own them or they won't exist...

[Kirkaiya]

anybody read the article?

"Kort expects Dell to snag 30% of the U.S. handheld market next year by selling more than a billion units. "

It's one BILLION units!

This is NO misprint - it's one BILLION units.... because, you see, Foo Fighter (as he mentioned in his several previous posts on aliens), is the purchasing agent for an alien race - a race that, for all their immense intellects, lacks our ability to mass-produce plastic hand-computers.

According to Foo, he is buying some 2.7 Billion units for shipment to Rigel, which is where the real market is. All the "local" earth sales are just surplus stock... it's all a big conspiracy...

:-)

[jeff]

Speaking of which - Jason, have you heard any news of when the Viewsonic will ship?

Nope. I've heard the same thing you all have - November.

I talked to a Viewsonic rep at the Tablet PC event last week. He said the Pocket PCs will be released in very limited quanities this month with production picking up for the end of the year. He wasn't even able to get one for himself.

Jeff

[PPCRules]

That Palm InfoCenter editorial is SO funny.
In short, it's not about having a PC in your pocket.Sorry, that's what it IS about. If not, why is there an OS5? (I ask myself that often). Some of their (the Palm side) spokespeople try to shed the "connected organizer" reference, this guy is clinging to it.

An unnamed Handheld industry insider has confided in us... "Microsoft is way late to the field on this one, I would recommend a used Palm Pilot 5000 before that Samsung reference design. The (5 year old) Pilot 5000 even looks more attractive." Not unidentified, but "unnamed" (if the entity had a name it would probably be 'ryan'.) But it is extremely compassionate to not publicly identify a person who makes a comment like that.

So will all the new PPC's make much of a dent in the Palm OS marketshare? Only time will tell, however we are not very optimistic. 'Not very optimistic' about what? If he thinks there won't be much of a dent, he should be optimistic. If it makes a huge dent, he might have reason to be 'not very optimistic'.

as we look the future things are only going to get better. He obviously has his eyes closed now, so looking to the future while keeping them closed just might make things look better.

[Take1]

The one advantage Palm OS5 devices have over the PPCs is screen resolution. Which is 320 x 480 and 320 x 320 is considerably better than 240 x 320 in text and graphics. Hope MS decides to boot the resolution on the next gen. PPC OS. This might not mean much to the entry lever user (look at the sales of the m5xx series vs. the T and NR series), but the power users will consider this a major factor (I do).

There is no doubt that Palm and Sony have narrowed the performance gap in their high end units, but the low end Palms are still the same old junk they've been selling for years. If PPC can deliver a cheap and small device with a well done mono screen and enought RAM to do the job, the low end might well be owned by PPC.

The low end is not where MS and PPC manufacturers have had much luck or knowledge -- likewise, Palm doesn't have much experience with high-end features that would take on the PPC. Once the learning curve is complete on both sides, things will become very interesting!

[taxlax]

There is no doubt that Palm and Sony have narrowed the performance gap in their high end units, !

Yes, I agree but then you hear this crap:

""When the average user turns on his handheld to check an appointment or a address, do you think he/she cares what clock speed the processor is running or how much RAM the machine has? Does it really have any relevance on the handhelds ability to organize your life? What I’m trying to convey is that "Specmanship" is irrelevant. What does matter is useful innovation, seamless connectivity and quality PIM (Personal Information Management) applications. These are what make a truly useful PDA, not glitz and megahertz. "

[Ed Hansberry]

Yes, I agree but then you hear this crap:

""When the average user turns on his handheld to check an appointment or a address, do you think he/she cares what clock speed the processor is running or how much RAM the machine has? Does it really have any relevance on the handhelds ability to organize your life? What I’m trying to convey is that "Specmanship" is irrelevant. What does matter is useful innovation, seamless connectivity and quality PIM (Personal Information Management) applications. These are what make a truly useful PDA, not glitz and megahertz. "
True, but when a user runs out of RAM because their inbox had some attachments or they installed 2-3 games, or it takes 30 seconds to show their calendar with 200 appointments for the next 3 months, or the device can't load a large spreadsheet, then "glitz and megahertz" matter.

[tj21]

I could be wrong, but my gut tells me that Dell is more of a threat to HP or Toshiba than either Palm or Sony. The biggest long-term impact Dell's presence will have on Palm licensees is force lower pricing on high-end products.

I'd have to agree with this. I don't think that Dell will have an immediate impact on Tungsten or Clie sales because there is enough to differentiate them but the average consumer is going to see the Pocket PCs as interchangeable.

The Pocket PC space has become too stagnant. Where are the innovations similar to Tungsten or Clies? The larger resolution screens and differning form factors? I'm worried that Dell is going to make this even worse. Margins are going to be ultra thin and most of these customers are just coming at the expense of HP and Toshiba. I love the idea of great $200 PPC's but I'd be more excited about $400 PPCs with 128mb, 360x480 screens, integrated bluetooth and dual expansion slots. Dell just doesn't seem like a company that's going to deliver that and unfortunately their pricing strategy makes it much more difficult for anybody else to attempt it.

Sad to say but I feel like Palm has regained the power user edge in the PDA space. If I want to work with Office apps, use HTML e-mail with real filtering, and work with a high-resolution screen I can't use a Pocket PC.

T

[Ed Hansberry]

The one advantage Palm OS5 devices have over the PPCs is screen resolution. Which is 320 x 480 and 320 x 320 is considerably better than 240 x 320 in text and graphics. Hope MS decides to boot the resolution on the next gen. PPC OS. This might not mean much to the entry lever user (look at the sales of the m5xx series vs. the T and NR series), but the power users will consider this a major factor (I do).

For multimedia, yes, or the mega screen of the Clie NX/NR series. I dislike the square 320X though. There should be a SIP, as Sony has now implemented in the NX.

I am hoping that there are going to be some other resolutions on Pocket PCs in the future, but man, you talk about a niche market. The NX is what percentage of PalmOS sales?

[roberto_torres]

The one advantage Palm OS5 devices have over the PPCs is screen resolution. Which is 320 x 480 and 320 x 320 is considerably better than 240 x 320 in text and graphics. Hope MS decides to boot the resolution on the next gen. PPC OS. This might not mean much to the entry lever user (look at the sales of the m5xx series vs. the T and NR series), but the power users will consider this a major factor (I do).

There is no doubt that Palm and Sony have narrowed the performance gap in their high end units, but the low end Palms are still the same old junk they've been selling for years. If PPC can deliver a cheap and small device with a well done mono screen and enought RAM to do the job, the low end might well be owned by PPC.

The low end is not where MS and PPC manufacturers have had much luck or knowledge -- likewise, Palm doesn't have much experience with high-end features that would take on the PPC. Once the learning curve is complete on both sides, things will become very interesting!


From my point of view what I think is that both platforms are contemplating new markets.

Alwas Palm has ruled the low end market and PPC has been King of the high end market.

Now with the new OS 5 handhelds Palm Os is definitely targeting the higher end (even higher than what PPC has done): For example the new NX clie has an exorbitant price of $600, and features not even available on a PPC (320x480 resolution, clamshell, keyboard, 640x480 Mpeg cammera). Also the Tungsten T has built in bluethoot and 320x320 both high end features.

On the Other hand the new cool sub $300 PPC are entering a new marketing area where PPC has never gone beafore, and the new concept desing just looks like a definitive palm killer.


The market is shifting, lets wait and see how PPC does in the low/mid range and Palm OS in the high range. If things go well it will be really interesting and prices will continue to drop wich is good for us.

[ThomasC22]

Now with the new OS 5 handhelds Palm Os is definitely targeting the higher end (even higher than what PPC has done): For example the new NX clie has an exorbitant price of $600, and features not even available on a PPC (320x480 resolution, clamshell, keyboard, 640x480 Mpeg cammera). Also the Tungsten T has built in bluethoot and 320x320 both high end features.


I agree with you and would go even further to say Dell is not so much a threat to Palm's existing sales as it is to their future sales. They are pretty heavily targeting the Tungsten at corporate sales.

You really don't need to cut into Palm's current sales to kill them because, to be honest, they aren't selling that much. Simply block them from further sales and they'll eventually die.

As for Sony, Sony's a consumer electronics company, I doubt Dell will hurt them too much.

[mookie123]

I think Dell will have a hard time competing with Sony in PDA arena as consumer electronic. Dell can keep doing price war, but Sony won't go that way. Sony will make up some cute gimmick, interesting design, good consumer marketing and charge a little more. They will sell PDA like selling latest CD players.

That's exactly what Sony do against Handspring and Palm Inc. they keep introducing new model (12 models last year alone) and try to prevent each model becoming boring comodity.

It's very hard to do, you need great design team and manufacturing prowess.

It's too bad Sony doens't do PPC. They would have bring in awesome thin PDA albeit costing an arm and a leg. (jsut like their laptops)

[Rob Alexander]

Just because of that I still has to carry around a CLie. Documents to go for Palm makes Pocket office look buggy and underpowered.

Hey, Pocket Word doesn't need 'Documents to Go' to make it look buggy and underpowered. It does that just fine on its own, thanks! :D

[Ed Hansberry]

Hey, Pocket Word doesn't need 'Documents to Go' to make it look buggy and underpowered. It does that just fine on its own, thanks! :D


:lol: :lol: :lol: :werenotworthy:

[Foo Fighter]

You really don't need to cut into Palm's current sales to kill them because, to be honest, they aren't selling that much. Simply block them from further sales and they'll eventually die.

Not selling much? Palm currently outsells all other major PDA vendors. Last quarter they pulled in 800k+ unit sales.

[ThomasC22]

Not selling much? Palm currently outsells all other major PDA vendors. Last quarter they pulled in 800k+ unit sales.

I guess I should have said "not making much". The problem is, these sales charts always quote "units sold" which is pretty much worthless (not knowing which units they were, what the margin was, etc...)

But what we do know is that Palm's hardware business is not doing so well and PalmSource can not yet (according to many a Cnet interview) support itself alone.

[Foo Fighter]

...and PalmSource can not yet (according to many a Cnet interview) support itself alone.

From what I've seen, I am very skeptical as to whether they will EVER be able to support themselves, let alone become profitable at it. The PDA market isn't yet big enough to support PalmSource on OS licensing revenue alone. Money has to come from somewhere else as well....like drug trade, illegal arms smuggling or something like that.

[Sslixtis]

Foo, you're crazy. PalmSource rules, those Media Readers will support them... 8O :lol:

Sorry, had to kill a kitten :wink:

[ultach]

I think the market is big enough for both flavors of device, Palm and
PocketPC. I don't subscribe to the view that PocketPC is being marketed
as a commodity. After all, Palm has Silicon liscencees who follow
reference board designs. The fact that a good number of the
PocketPCs look alike is more a fault of the manufacturer's lack of
imagination. I'm sure if Sony were making a PPC edition, they would
be equally creative.

[Foo Fighter]

Sorry, had to kill a kitten :wink:

MEOOOOOOOW.......SPLAT!

There goes another innocent feline, slaughtered by the madness of PocketPCthoughts. :twisted:

[hrianto]

It is getting more and more interesting PPC vs PalmOS. Believe it or not that we really care about Palm OS eventhough we use PPC as a lot of us spend a lot of time discussing this topic. If we don't care about Palm OS then we just forget about it and will not spend time to read what Palm OS offered and compare them with PPC.

Again I believe that we need Palm OS to make PDA market interesting. PPC without competion like Palm OS just a plain boring OS dictated by Microsoft to all consumer. With other competitor, Microsoft will try to be better all the time. So does the Palm OS and the circle repeat itself.

Don't all of you find it's better to have Palm OS in PDA market as a competitor to PPC?

[taxlax]

It is getting more and more interesting PPC vs PalmOS. Believe it or not that we really care about Palm OS eventhough we use PPC as a lot of us spend a lot of time discussing this topic. If we don't care about Palm OS then we just forget about it and will not spend time to read what Palm OS offered and compare them with PPC.

Again I believe that we need Palm OS to make PDA market interesting. PPC without competion like Palm OS just a plain boring OS dictated by Microsoft to all consumer. With other competitor, Microsoft will try to be better all the time. So does the Palm OS and the circle repeat itself.

Don't all of you find it's better to have Palm OS in PDA market as a competitor to PPC?


I think this is one of the best comments I have seen so far.

[JornadaJ]

After reading the article, I was wondering which of these two quotes better applies for Nagel...

1. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

or one from my Army days, Murphy's Laws of Combat:

2. "That diversion you're ignoring is actually the enemy's main attack..."

Just a thought...

[ThomasC22]

From what I've seen, I am very skeptical as to whether they will EVER be able to support themselves, let alone become profitable at it. The PDA market isn't yet big enough to support PalmSource on OS licensing revenue alone. Money has to come from somewhere else as well....like drug trade, illegal arms smuggling or something like that.

Well, and that has always been the problem. Microsoft would probably write the whole thing off just to control the platform but PalmSource doesn't have the benefit of a company sitting on nearly 41 billion dollars in "spare cash"

The funny thing is that PalmSource probably has the right idea with their eBook reader in that the way that money will probably eventually be made on the PDA is by selling both an OS and applications, just like in the PC Market (where MS still makes the great majority of their money off of Office)

[Hitman2]

it’s uncommon to find apps for the Palm OS larger than 150K, on the PPC side, it's hard to find any sort of app, smaller than 500K. .

It's also uncommon to find any PalmOS apps that will keep me using my PDA... my visor is dust-bait. All my friends who have Palm OS devices never use 'em, whereas all my friends who have PocketPC's are still using them every day. That is definitely why I will be buying a PocketPC soon... I want the convenience of a PDA, but the PalmOS devices bore the crap out of me and do not motivate me to carry them from one side of my desk to the other any more, let alone carry them with me when I leave the house.

Just MHO, but... Palm OS is for sour grapes types.

[ThomasC22]

It's also uncommon to find any PalmOS apps that will keep me using my PDA... my visor is dust-bait. All my friends who have Palm OS devices never use 'em, whereas all my friends who have PocketPC's are still using them every day. That is definitely why I will be buying a PocketPC soon... I want the convenience of a PDA, but the PalmOS devices bore the crap out of me and do not motivate me to carry them from one side of my desk to the other any more, let alone carry them with me when I leave the house.


Well, I started to mock you, and then I thought about it, and your right. I think a lot of what keeps people going back to their PDAs is cool factor. Lets face it you could get the same job done with a paper organizer, But it's the wow factor that really makes it worth while.

[Ed Hansberry]

Well, I started to mock you, and then I thought about it, and your right. I think a lot of what keeps people going back to their PDAs is cool factor. Lets face it you could get the same job done with a paper organizer, But it's the wow factor that really makes it worth while.
It is the WOW factor that gets you going, but it is the killer integration that keeps it worthwhile. Yesterday I:
*Listened to a 7.5 hour audible book while driving on an 8.5 hr round trip.
*Checked email 3 times during a meeting
*Added 4 tasks and cleared 2-3.
*Reviewed an emailed spreadsheet. made some comments and emailed it back.
*Read this site's front page via an RSS sync.
*dictated 2 voice notes. Note this can be done DURING an Audible playback. :D
*Sync'd Avantgo
*Took care of one critical issue via Instant Messenger

Except for Pocket RSS, all of that is integrated into the device, with all wireless done via bluetooth and a T68. It is just fun to use the device.

[Foo Fighter]

Yesterday I:
*Listened to a 7.5 hour audible book while driving on an 8.5 hr round trip.
*Checked email 3 times during a meeting
*Added 4 tasks and cleared 2-3.
*Reviewed an emailed spreadsheet. made some comments and emailed it back.
*Read this site's front page via an RSS sync.
*dictated 2 voice notes. Note this can be done DURING an Audible playback. :D
*Sync'd Avantgo
*Took care of one critical issue via Instant Messenger.

And you say I have too much free time on my hands? 8O

[ThomasC22]

And you say I have too much free time on my hands? 8O

Awwwww, it's like back in the PDABuzz days all over again.

[Rob Alexander]

it’s uncommon to find apps for the Palm OS larger than 150K, on the PPC side, it's hard to find any sort of app, smaller than 500K. .

Whenever I see this argument, I know the person writing it just doesn't get it. When we talk about large storage on a PPC (or at least when I do), it's generally not about program size, but about how much data I can carry around with me all the time. Simetimes that data is in a program, like when you carry a large dictionary with a 10 MB data file, but mostly it's all my data. I carry tons of documents, ebooks, papers I've written, Powerpoint presentations, images of everything under the sun, maps, etc. (Not to mention MP3s on the storage card.) I never know when I'll need any one thing, so I just try to have as much as I can with me all the time. And when someone brings up a topic at a meeting (or whatever) and I have information on it with me, I know that a measley 16 MB simply would not be enough for me even if I used absolutely none of it on the programs themselves. And until I can fit the entire Encarta Reference Suite on my PPC with room to spare, I'll say we still don't have enough storage in these things for all the data I'd like to have.

[Janak Parekh]

Except for Pocket RSS, all of that is integrated into the device, with all wireless done via bluetooth and a T68. It is just fun to use the device.
Dude, how much is your T-Mobile bill? 8O

--bdj

[Ed Hansberry]

Except for Pocket RSS, all of that is integrated into the device, with all wireless done via bluetooth and a T68. It is just fun to use the device.
Dude, how much is your T-Mobile bill? 8O

--bdj
I just use the $19.99 10MB plan. Email sync and the like is usually 50-100K per sync, maybe a bit more if there are file attachments. I limit emails to 50K each by default, though I can always override on important emails. I didn't download that 7.5hr book via GPRS. :lol: It was 28MB! I sync'd before I left home. RSS is very clean, maybe 50K. Avantgo is a hog but I wanted new info. About 700K.

I only really use it like this when out of the office - about 3-5 days a month. The rest of the time, I use my WiFi card.

[Hitman2]

Well, I started to mock you, and then I thought about it, and your right. I think a lot of what keeps people going back to their PDAs is cool factor.

Well, it is for me anyway. I mean, the PIM functions are essential. But the PIM and note taking aspects could still come in handy for me, yet I can't bring myself to use the Palm OS device at all anymore.

So I wasn't just being facetious, I actually meant what I was saying! :) I acknowledge that others might not feel the same and might have different uses and needs regarding their PDA's.