Definition of "What a Shame"

[Andy Sjostrom]

<a href="http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/n/2539.html">http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/n/2539.html</a><br /><br />If you wonder how to define "What a shame", I present to you the real deal. "What a shame" is by definition building drop-dead gorgeous phones on top of a drop-dead dead platform. The company that starts with "N" and ends with "okia" announced today new phones that breath pride, ambition and innovation. Too bad they cripple their phones with a platform that is headíng nowhere. infoSync has all the details and images, except for the N-Gage seen below. In my opinion, N-Gage is not their nicest looking phone so I recommend a visit to infoSync.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/ngage_01.jpg" />

[PJE]

Hi,

I like the look of the 6800 (the one with the split keyboard). I think they should have dropped from 4(1/2) to 3(1/2) rows of keys and embedded the number keys in the right (or left) keypad to make the buttons larger.

Now, what I'd like would be a landscape PocketPC with this type of keyboard...

With regard to Symbian, only time will tell - but they do have volumes on their side once the Series 60 platform rolls out fully. I've not written any applications directly on the EPOC OS, but other than syncronization with Windows apps (a big thing) which is being adressed, I don't see any techinical problems.

PJE

[Jonathon Watkins]

Indeed - why can't the PPC manufactures show a little imagination and get with some new form factors. Why is HP the only one still (just) making PPCs with keyboards?

Now the 6800 is a NICE piece of design! Very clever, but I wonder how solid & durable the keyboard hinge will be….. As Andy said - it’s a shame Nokia isn’t in bed with MS – the offspring would be very interesting indeed! :wink:

[krisbrown]

A few years ago I would have agreed but things are starting to change in Europe, there is so much useful software being written for the platform that I think it does have a future, the games are cheap and are starting to pop up in those ringtone sites, which is a seal of approval by any standards.

Also check out this baby, ooooh the possibilities!!!
http://www.nokia.com/phones/observation_camera/index.html

[Timothy Rapson]

Snotty comments about the future of Symbian will not make them less successful nor make the long delayed MS Smartphone inniative successful.

Time will tell, but my bets are on Symbian. At least I did not have to reset my Mako every day to keep it working. If I were Sendo, Tmobile, or any of the phone makers who are using smartphone (Samsung will be the key indicator as stressed by other threads, since they are offering models with all three OSs) I would NOT put anything on the box that lets the user know that Windows is involved. I wouldn't take a first generation MS OS product if you paid me.

But, go ahead and slam the Symbian models that are running away with sales in Europe. We'll know a year from now which ones win out.

[JMountford]

First off that Phone Pictured, Can anyone say Gameboy Advanced?
Come on Really!!!

As far as Symbian goes, I do beleive it is picking up steam whether MS o'phyles like it or not.

[Zensbikeshop]

I think the rumours of Symbian's demise are greatly exagerated.

On what grounds do you class it a dead platform?

The fact that EVERY major mobile manufacturer is a member of Synbian says something as does the fact that Bill G. has stated that Symbian is a top three threat to Microsoft.

Symbina does not produce hardware, Symbian (cleverly I believe) does not produce the UI - Symbian produces the OS.

An OS that powers the biggest selling PDA in EMEA.

Now I know this always comes as a shock to Americans but EMEA is a bigger market that the US - especially for mobile technology. Can you even say GSM hahahaha

The next 2-3 years are going to be a very interesting time in the mobile software/hardware/OS market place. Do not discount Symbian..

[ECOslin]

I'd like to see more non-standard profiles for Pocket PC class machines.
Once or twice my Maestro has suffered the insults of being called a Palm Pilot. This coming year dozens of new, same same, clone Pocket PCs will be rolling in.

Same profiles in successionally cheaper devices.

Edward

[KyleC]

Once or twice my Maestro has suffered the insults of being called a Palm Pilot.
Hear Hear! The only way to describe my e310 to other uncultured people is to compare it to a Palm Pilot. While this may compromise my dignity, it will help the rest of the world to understand what Pocket PC's are.

[Gremmie]

First off that Phone Pictured, Can anyone say Gameboy Advanced?
Come on Really!!!


They've had this form since the 5510--which was still after the Game Boy Advanced :)

On the topic of the OS, for phone OS's (in Europe), Symbian will be a leader, The Register and other European based reviewer (minus Infosync) have been critical of Pocket PC and even Palm based smartphones.

[ThomasC22]

My thoughts are that Symbian, although much further entrenched then alot think, is still toast in the long run.

The problem is multi-pronged.

1 - An OS without a shell has no identity and so is usually not embraced. It's true, people think visually and as OS without a shell to attach it to has not mind share value.

2 - The Big Phone Manufacturers (can't call them the big three anymore because Samsung is #3 now) aren't completely committed. Sony-Ericson is doing work with Microsoft, Motorola uses it's own technology in several of it's phones, etc...

3 - The Big Phone Manufacturers are falling out of favor. In the U.S. it's hard to get a Nokia phone these days.

Those three problems I think are the biggest (#2 being the absolute biggest in my opinion), as far as Symbian on a PDA, that's already taken a pretty big fall, even in Europe, so I doubt that's going to work out (especially since the PPC has been gaining Marketshare in huge strides in Europe).

[Janak Parekh]

Snotty comments about the future of Symbian will not make them less successful nor make the long delayed MS Smartphone inniative successful.
Wait a sec. Where does it say any of these phones are Symbian? Looks more like Nokia's proprietary OS to me, which is absolutely a dead-end OS.

--bdj

[Rafe]

If Symbian is the OS referred to in the post then here is something of a response.

Please bear in mind that I come from the other side of the fence, that is to say I'm a bliever in Symbian rather than Micrsoft. As far as I'm concerned we're all entitled to are different opinions. I admin the All About Symbian (http://www.allaboutsymbian.com) website so thats my background.

I'd be interested to hear why you think Symbian (or maybe you refer to Series 60 ) as a crippled OS. I would argue that it considerably more advanced than the MS equivalent (think resources and supported feature sets).

Someone said that they felt the UI lack of identy might be a problem. I don't agree. Most people won't care what sort of OS it is so long as it works for them. the majority of users are not the power usesr (the ones who tend to frequent sites such as these). That said the Series 60 is starting to build up some serious momentum. It now has 3 announced devices (fairly equiavlent to MS Smartphone I think), and Siemens has at leats on handset due before the end of the year.

Someone commented on manufacturers OS, and actually Symbian analysis tend to agree that the biggest threat comes not from MS but internal company OS's such as NOS, or MOS.

The Nokia 7650 has sold 1 million units, I don't know the sale figures for anyone PPC, but one suspects that is far more tahn a single model (I assume if you lumped all the IPAQ models to gether you might get near that figure). These sales have been achieved in less than 3 months. With the 3650 and n-gage just round the corner Nokia are going to be shipping upwards of 10 million of these handsets with Series 60 next year. Gives you pause for thought eh?

Rafe

[Fishie]

These devices sell on theyre COOL factor and not on the OS they carry, people who buy these things dont care about stuff like that, they just want something that is regarded as being cool, the exclusive Sega Mobile games wich will come on probably property memory cards wont hurt it either.

[Timothy Rapson]

Snotty comments about the future of Symbian will not make them less successful nor make the long delayed MS Smartphone inniative successful.
Wait a sec. Where does it say any of these phones are Symbian? Looks more like Nokia's proprietary OS to me, which is absolutely a dead-end OS.

--bdj

Well, at first I smacked my head and thought. Well, you got me there. He is pointing at models that are mostly regular 2 and 2.5 generation phones; models that might now be called dumb phones. In that case, Andy is saying a phone with no OS at all has a dead end OS.

Of course, no one expects to surf the Web or do word processing and spread sheets on a micro Java enabled phone. So at least it works without resetting and they sell these things for $99. Some of the Nokia models do run Symbian and that is where the OS is really a question.

To call the current non-Symbian Nokia phones, phones with a dead end OS is like calling a pedal powered bicycle a dead end Harley. Of course my bicycle will never compete with a Harley, what is the point? Some people may want a bicycle rather than pay for gas, license, and all the rest. Why knock the simpler Nokia for not being a Smart Phone? The proper comparison with Smartphones that Andy's comment implies (by mentioning an OS) is the new Nokia Symbian lineup.

[Sheynk]

I couldnt have put it better myself, Nokia is know for its VERY simply OS and that we are comparing completely different platforms. Why did Nokia beat erricson for the longest time, because of simplicity. To be honest with you, I have a simple nokia that I use to call people. That is it. If I was a proffesional and needed GPRS internet access, I would get the XDA or ipaq/bluetooth, or laptop/ricochet-type service.

[boohooboyblahblah]

I wonder if msft isn't a little happy to see this happen. If nokia can mount a good offense against the Gameboy Advance, which isn't likely, then it will help distract them that much more from the console market. And xbox would have a little help against nintendo.

Thoughts?

[Fishie]

I wonder if msft isn't a little happy to see this happen. If nokia can mount a good offense against the Gameboy Advance, which isn't likely, then it will help distract them that much more from the console market. And xbox would have a little help against nintendo.

Thoughts?

Nah not likely, the homeconsole bussuines is a verry different beast from the handheld console bussuines and the same rules dont apply.
This phone handheld also is not likely to break Nintendo´s handheld gaming monopoly.
As much as we would like to think otherwise the PPC and now this Nokio phone are not perceived as competing by the general populace and for now and the immediate future will not be canibalising eachothers sales.
The GBA handheld market consists of hunderds of big name developers who sometimes work with teams as large as 60 people for over a year on a single game(Final Fantasy tactics for GBA) while on PPC or cellphones its often a single guy writing a game in a few weeks at most.
Like I said totally different markets wich have verry little in common demographicly speaking.

[Landis]

Like I said totally different markets wich have verry little in common demographicly speaking.

I think there is more crossover there than you think. I love my GBA and my PPC! The controls issue is something that has limited the appeal of console style games on the PPC and phones.

The gaming wireless phone has a lot of potential. I think Nokia has compromised too much on phone ergonomics though with this design. I have no hands on experience with games on Symbian phones, so I can't comment their potential. I do know that Smarphone 2002 games are console fast and beg for console controls.

Here is my proposal for a gaming Smartphone2002. Imagine an Orange SPV with the screen moved down against a more substantial direction pad so the screen is basically in the middle of the phone. Now rotate the phone 90 degrees to the right so you have horizontal orientation. Add A and B buttons in the upper right corner above the speaker. Give it some subtle shoulder buttons. Viola!

Works like a conventional Smartphone 2002 till a full screen game is started. Games can be programmed to run in the conventional orientation or horizontally when installed on a GamePhone (TM) :wink:

What do you think?

[JMountford]

OK somehow we got onto gaming on a portable platform. I am not a hardcore gamer. I have an Xbox and a Sega Saturn. The kids have a PS1. We do not really play games on the pc as the controls are a huge issue. Games should be easy and fun to play and not use all the keys on the keyboard.

Gaming on a PPC or even Smartphone could work really well I think if some OEM designed a device more geared toward gaming, at the very least nine way control pads and multitap abilities.

The PPC device itself is way powerful enough to do some pretty major handheld gaming.

[Fishie]

I agree, most people do regard productivity devices as just that and dont care or care verry little about whatever gaming aspects those items might carry.
The fact that developers dont push these devices with killer apps similar to those seen on dedicated consoles and the fact that there is no clear push to market these devices as such further cements my oppinion.
Non of the big gaming companies support these jack of all trades master of none devices and without such support people will contineu to treat them as cool gadget or productivity machines without realising the potential they have.

[scottmag]

My thoughts are that Symbian, although much further entrenched then alot think, is still toast in the long run.

The problem is multi-pronged.

1 - An OS without a shell has no identity and so is usually not embraced. It's true, people think visually and as OS without a shell to attach it to has not mind share value.


The underlying OS in the Nokia N-Gage is the Symbian OS. Series 60 is the "shell" that provides the "identity" to the Symbian OS. Series 60 consists of the PIM, messaging and browser clients, and the user interface. The N-Gage will be based on Series 60.

2 - The Big Phone Manufacturers (can't call them the big three anymore because Samsung is #3 now) aren't completely committed. Sony-Ericson is doing work with Microsoft, Motorola uses it's own technology in several of it's phones, etc...

Samsung, Matsu****a, and Siemens have signed on to deliver phones based on Series 60. Ericsson is part of the Symbian consortium with Nokia. The upcoming Sony-Ericsson P800 smartphone will use the Symbian OS with another interface - the stylus-based UIQ, a subset of their Quartz reference design. Of the major phone manufacturers it seems that only Motorola has not announced an intention to use Series 60, or at least the underlying Symbian OS. Of course these are not exclusive agreements.



3 - The Big Phone Manufacturers are falling out of favor. In the U.S. it's hard to get a Nokia phone these days.

That seems to be true based on my casual observation. That doesn't necessarily translate into "falling out of favor" though. Unless you are implying that the phone manufacturers selling well into the U.S. market, which is predominantly CDMA at this point, are poised to gain market share equally in Europe and Asia.



Those three problems I think are the biggest (#2 being the absolute biggest in my opinion), as far as Symbian on a PDA, that's already taken a pretty big fall, even in Europe, so I doubt that's going to work out (especially since the PPC has been gaining Marketshare in huge strides in Europe).

Just looking at a snapshot of the current market situation would lead me to believe Symbian and Series 60 are the driver's seat. But with Symbian being a conflict-plagued consortium of competitors going up against a focused Microsoft I think you might be right about their long-term prospects.

I hope they succeed though. This N-Gage is an example of creative thinking and addressing a market niche. With synchronization and communication standards everyone else does not have to lose for Microsoft and the PocketPC platform to be successful.

Scott

[Janak Parekh]

I couldnt have put it better myself, Nokia is know for its VERY simply OS and that we are comparing completely different platforms. Why did Nokia beat erricson for the longest time, because of simplicity.
While that's true, user requirements are changing. I mean end-user requirements. The average European cell phone user is now an SMS expert and is itching to use MMS. The average American customer, while not quite as interested in data services, is not that far behind (a lot of people want better phone books, Bluetooth, etc.)

It's like the old Palm days when people said "it's simpler", implying its superiority. User needs are evolving. Even Nokia recognizes this and that's why it's starting to increasingly adopt Symbian.

I use an Ericsson T68 and a Motorola P280. They're OK. But the proprietary OS's, that changes slightly from phone-to-phone, is immensely maddening. I have to put up with limitations in each because a manufacturer decided it's not necessary. I still maintain that's a dead-end approach long-term, as phone OS's become more and more complex.

--bdj

[HR]

An OS that powers the biggest selling PDA in EMEA.What do you mean by that? I bet $100 Palms sell 100 times Symbian.

Except that most phones are cheap phones and most users don't give a damn about what OS is running and although Nokia and friends sell a lot of phones, only few new ones are actually running Symbian. I am not endorsing MS Smartphone, I am just saying that you are over-estimating the importance of a true OS on a dinky phone with crappy screen and awful input capability.