The Font Size Issue [Archive] - Thoughts Media Forums

Jason Dunn

10-09-2002, 11:47 AM

One of the primary complaints on the new format is the size of the font. On the old layout, we used 10 point, and on this new one, we used 9 point. I wouldn't have thought 1 point was enough to make a difference, but a few people are complaining that it's hard to read. Normally I'd suggest making your browser font size bigger, but our designer used fixed-width fonts to help lock in the snazzy layout, so this change isn't possible. Personally, I love the 9 point font, but for those with less-than-stellar vision, I can understand your frustration. :oops: <!><br /><br />A helpful first-time poster named "B" chastised us for being lazy and disrespect of our readers for not using "em" to control the font size (which would also allow for browser-side font changes). I know very little about CSS, so I took the criticism in stride, but after our designer did some research, it seems that phpBB (the core engine of our site) doesn't seem to support EM measurements. So we're in a bit of a bind here, because phpBB is the heart the soul of our functionality.<br /><br />At the moment we've increased the font size to 10 points - I hope that makes it easier for some of you to read. Until we figure out another solution, that's as big as you'll be able to make it - my apologies, especially to those of you with very poor eyesight. This was an unintentional side-effect of the new layout and we're working to correct it as soon as possible.

Xaximus

10-09-2002, 11:47 AM

Even on my 17" monitor at 1024x768 with system font size set to Large, I would have to say that I preferred the 10 pt font as well. It was much easier to read.

Elad Yakobowicz

10-09-2002, 11:47 AM

I'm viewing the site on my 17-inch monitor at 1024x768 resolution and text size set to Medium - font seems perfect to me right now.

adamz

10-09-2002, 11:47 AM

What about percentage based font sizes?

10-09-2002, 11:47 AM

the 9 point font is great, for everyone who doesn't like it, there are just as many (if not more) who like 9 point rather than the 10 point.

cheers,
pt

Xaximus

10-09-2002, 11:47 AM

the 9 point font is great, for everyone who doesn't like it, there are just as many (if not more) who like 9 point rather than the 10 point.

As I could just as easily say that 95% of the viewers on the site prefer 10 pt, I say make it something that each user can specify via preferences or set up a poll ;).

whoopus

10-09-2002, 11:47 AM

The font looks fine to me. Of course that is probably because I am viewing the site on a Dell 21" monitor with a Triniton Flat Picture Tube! 8)

Seriously, the 9 point font looks great to me even on my laptop screen. Keep up the good work.

The only downside is that it is more obvious that I am browsing a website at work because all of the snazzy colors and graphics instead of doing my job! :wink:

mark

Jason Dunn

10-09-2002, 01:16 PM

Survey added to the front page - cast your vote!

JonnoB

10-09-2002, 01:29 PM

Survey added to the front page - cast your vote!

The survey looks inverted. Shouldn't it read old=10 point, new=9 point?

dhoward

10-09-2002, 01:30 PM

Your question re: font size has the references reversed.

Current one is 9 point, not 10 point and vice versa.

Now the poll can work properly.

Thanks.

PS As you get older, you will appreciate any font that is larger. Take it from one in bi-focals already.

johncj

10-09-2002, 01:35 PM

Fixed font sizes are evil. http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20020819.html

It's disrespectful of your readers and against the nature of the web. It is unfortunate that the upgrade (which in other respects was very positive) would trip up over this issue. This site is all about the content. I'll be using the /pocket version until you fix this.

HuckOne

10-09-2002, 01:39 PM

My vote is against any and all fixed font size unless its 12pts or higher.

Fixed font size, especially small 10pts or less, cause usability issues for those that use LCD panels. For example, my home laptop with a 15" panel runs 1400x1050. As with most LCD panels, not all some IBM Thinkpads scale, the screen does not scale but is limited to the pixels. For example, my panel on 800x600 is almost half the width and height making the fixed font size on websites the same physical size.

10-09-2002, 01:44 PM

As I could just as easily say that 95% of the viewers on the site prefer 10 pt, I say make it something that each user can specify via preferences or set up a poll ;).

good decisions are seldom made by committee or even voting. out of the 30k or so visitors per day, less than 1% post, and less than 1% will vote.

i don't care, 9 point - 10 point. i'd like an option to vote for "jason, do whatever you feel is best for the most people".

cheers,
pt

Robotbeat

10-09-2002, 01:52 PM

I agree with pt.

JonnoB

10-09-2002, 01:54 PM

i don't care, 9 point - 10 point. i'd an option to vote for "jason, do whatever you feel is best".

Soliciting feedback is always good in making improvements. The decision on point size however should be the decision of the creator if it impacts the look and feel of the sight. If there was some user choice, I would guess that 99% would leave it at whatever the default was.

Woodster

10-09-2002, 02:25 PM

I would suggest to add some white space on the point size. Add "LINE-HEIGHT: 16px;" and you will get "easier to read" copy.

Robert Levy

10-09-2002, 02:27 PM

I know very little about CSS, so I took the criticism in stride, but after our designer did some research, it seems that phpBB (the core engine of our site) doesn't seem to support EM measurements. So we're in a bit of a bind here, because phpBB is the heart the soul of our functionality.

Not sure if this is relevant, but the PIE version of the site has adjustable fonts.

heov

10-09-2002, 03:30 PM

9 pt is alright on my 1152x864 on my 19 inch monitor, but on my sony laptop with 15 inch @ 1600x1200, it's tiny... Thanks for increase to 10. Also, yes, the mobile version does scale, as did the old site.

MRNUTTY

10-09-2002, 03:31 PM

the font is fine. the new website design is netscape 4.x unfriendly.
my browser can't find:
icon_redface.gif
icon_wick.gif
icon_eek.gif
the embedded images flow over text.
i like the content though.

dyei2

10-09-2002, 03:52 PM

hey, that animated poll is cool!

leave it 9.. its already been done and looks fine.

kaiden.1

10-09-2002, 04:02 PM

Well; the color on the site is nice, but the one thing about the old site that I liked best was how easy it was to go line by line down each topic and read everything posted for each day. The new site with the new font size and everything is so busy; I find it hard to concentrate on the topics posted.

Sorry; but I liked the old site better, easy to manuver, no frills and just plain old PPC stuff. I don't like all the flash and the "cram everything you can on the front page" type of approach. It clutters up the site. It is not more chaotic than professional like the big companies. You can find your way around and it is simple to manuver. Not everything blotched together. And I do like the larger font. :(

stevew

10-09-2002, 04:10 PM

Why on every vote/poll I've done on the new site so far it tells me I voted already when I haven't?

Sslixtis

10-09-2002, 04:11 PM

Where's the button for "I don't care either way"? I do think the new site is prettier though :lol:

10-09-2002, 04:25 PM

If it matters, I generally like the smaller font and would choose 9 over 10. It is not however a real issue for me, and I think the new site is great (!), plus the login mechanism is a real improvement - Kathryn

DuaneAA

10-09-2002, 04:40 PM

I have been anonymously browsing this site for the past couple of months, and you have finally hit on a topic that interested me enough to register. User controlled fonts is best or if not, bigger is definitely better.

For years I used a 21" CRT set to about 1200 x 900. When it died last spring I upgraded to a 20" Dell LCD with a fixed format of 1600 x 1200. Never noticed before how many sites were using these miniscule fixed fonts. Some even smaller than yours.

As higher and higher resolution monitors arrive, this issue is going to become more and more of a problem (I believe IBM has $20,000 monitor that does 9 megapixels in a 22" screen. You would need a microscope to read this font on it!).

Perhaps your poll should ask what resolution monitors people are using to view your site. If we all are running 1600x1200 instead of 800x600, then you could do your three column format with a much larger font :)

Duane

P.S. Okay, I will admit to 45 and been wearing bifocals for about 10 months now, but I think monitor resolutions is a bigger issue than my eyesight.

Dave Beauvais

10-09-2002, 04:43 PM

At my last job in the IT department of a local university, I became involved in setting up a few PCs for use by visually-disabled students. It really made me realize just how difficult most Web site layouts are for the disabled. For those who are blind and use text-to-speech screen readers, many (or most) Web sites these days are virtually unusable. To those who have partial vision and must use extremely large fonts, the Thoughts page would be useless. (Though people with vision that bad would probably not use a Pocket PC much, anyway, it should be something we all think of when designing sites.) Internet Explorer does have checkboxes in its Accessibility settings which will cause it to ignore forced formatting on Web sites and use only the users' settings. This is a global thing, though, so it affects all sites.

I've always felt that some aspects of presentation should be left to the viewer, not the site designer. Yes, formatting and appearance are a big part of the Web today, but the Web would be pretty boring without content. If that content is not accessible to a group of people because a font size has been locked at so small a size that they are physically unable to read it, it might as well not be there at all.

Ideally, the viewer should be able to select their font size. That said, I have no problem personally with the 9 point font. I actually prefer smaller text as it allows more text to fit on screen.

--Dave

P.S. Looks like I have to adjust the shadow in my avatar to blend better with the darker blue. :)

johncj

10-09-2002, 04:53 PM

The only problem with using a 9 point font is that it doesn't degrade nicely in Netscape. 10pt is as low as you can go without Netscape making it all buggy.

Of course one could argue that it serves someone who uses 3 year old software right...but try telling that to the users with Windows 95, IE 4.0, and no intention of upgrading.

By the way...Jakob Neilsen is a @$$. There has to be a balance between good design, and usability. A poorly designed site with perfect usability (See Mr. Neilsen's site as an example of this) will be so freaking boring to a user that they won't go back.

Want to back up that last statement with some facts? What could possibly more boring than Google's site? Name a site that gets more return business. You are just flat out wrong. Poor usability is poor design.

Dave Conger

10-09-2002, 05:22 PM

Oh man, this topic is hilarious (I think). Who knew there could be so much debate about font size and the how it just snowballs. :lol:

Decius (Dave), love the new icon.

jfreiman

10-09-2002, 05:31 PM

lord_darkside

10-09-2002, 05:39 PM

Janak Parekh

10-09-2002, 05:41 PM

TURN DOWN THE RESOLUTION OF YOUR MONITORS!
That's not an option on LCD's. There's one optimal resolution, and all the others are nearly unusable except for gaming and video.

While Windows does let you change the system-wide fonts, i.e., the dpi setting, as an alternative, a lot of programs don't support it properly, so it's truly a mixed bag.

Chalk another vote up here for 10pt. On my 20" LCD running at 1600x1200, it's just easier to read. I do have good vision, and 9pt is tolerable, but I'm trying to "relax" here. The content becomes too dense at 9pt. :)

--bdj

Xaximus

10-09-2002, 06:01 PM

The 9 point font is BEST! For all those people saying that it isn't large enough - I only have one thing to say to you...

TURN DOWN THE RESOLUTION OF YOUR MONITORS!

If you can not read a 9 point font properly on your display, then maybe you should be running your 15" displays at 1024x768 and not 1152x864.

No offense, but that's a ridiculous solution. If users have to change the default resolution of their desktop to accomodate a single website, that should be your first hint that the problem is with the website. And as someone else has stated, changing resolution is not an option for LCD displays. Quality design shouldn't require inconvenient changes to accomodate it.

Looks like some like the font the way it is, and some prefer it the way it was. It's a shame it has to be either/or for everyone. Don't get me wrong, I love this website and think that Jason and crew do an outstanding job; I just hope there's a better solution available.

Jason Dunn

10-09-2002, 06:18 PM

Your question re: font size has the references reversed.

Current one is 9 point, not 10 point and vice versa.

Now the poll can work properly.

Uh...no. If you re-read the post, you'll see that the font size has gone UP to 10 points - we just did that minutes before I posted. Right NOW it's 10 points - earlier today (this AM) it was 9 points. Hence, the survey is correct. You have to read what I write before posting a comment...please. :lol:

Jason Dunn

10-09-2002, 06:21 PM

PeterLake

10-09-2002, 06:34 PM

10 please

MRNUTTY

10-09-2002, 06:54 PM

the font is fine. the new website design is netscape 4.x unfriendly.

Apparently Netscape can't even render the Pocket PC version, which I'm afraid to say is utterly pathetic - I know some corporations are still using it, but sweet Mother of Mary, Pocket Internet Explorer is a very poor browser, and if IT can render it and Netscape 4.7 can't...that's just plain sad. :roll:

Pathetic or not, multitudes of interesting sites remain (pocketpcpassion,brighthand et al) that do render intelligibly enough to
be viable. it's not that we choose to use this brower, it is the only one
available to us. anyway, i had to run IE just to post this.

rogben

10-09-2002, 07:34 PM

A poorly designed site with perfect usability (See Mr. Neilsen's site as an example of this) will be so freaking boring to a user that they won't go back.

And yet people continue to return to Jakob's site and buy his books, year after year. His continued prominence goes a long way toward supporting his arguments.

Yahoo is ugly. Google is particularly ugly. But they get the job done, and that's all people really care about.

harry

10-09-2002, 07:49 PM

I like the way it looks now. The 9pt looked really tiny on my laptop.

rogben

10-09-2002, 07:53 PM

A helpful first-time poster named "B" chastised us for being lazy and disrespect of our readers...

I can be pretty hard on careless web design myself, but I don't think that's really fair. For me, the "liquid" center column is clear evidence that the designer put some actual thought into usability, so while I dunno about "lazy", I don't sense any disrespect. A bad decision isn't always the result of contempt.

lord_darkside

10-09-2002, 08:24 PM

Yahoo is ugly. Google is particularly ugly. But they get the job done, and that's all people really care about.

Well if all you want is for someone to glance at your site, and jump elsewhere, then yes. I don't go to Yahoo or Google because I want to see what interesting and fascinating insights the good folks at Yahoo and Google have (one of the main reasons why Yahoo's content division has all but folded), but I do use Google because I want to get somewhere quickly.

I may use Google a dozen times a day, but I'm never on a page for more than 10 seconds at a time.

I go to Neilsen's site about once a month because some of his points are interesting...however you have to wade through a lot of nonsense to pull up a golden nuggett or two. Once might argue that if you throw enough crap on the wall something's gotta stick. That's the way I see Jakob Neilsen.

nliokal

10-09-2002, 10:01 PM

Ok, this is a little bit OFF TOPIC but it seems that all polls are handled as a single poll.

I voted yesterday for the poll related to the site's redesign and today, when I tried to vote about the font, I get a "you have already voted" message. Maybe the cookie used should have a pollID as well!

Jonathon Watkins

10-09-2002, 11:30 PM

I'd like the option to change between 9 and 10 - if it's not too hard. I usally use 1280x960 on a 19 inch monitor which means that 9 point is good - but ocationally view PPCT on my 20 inch at 1600x1200, where 10 would be better. Both please! :D

adamz

10-10-2002, 02:06 AM

Perhaps your poll should ask what resolution monitors people are using to view your site. If we all are running 1600x1200 instead of 800x600, then you could do your three column format with a much larger font :)

Larger screen resolution doesn't make it acceptable to create a wider multi-column page. Multi-column web sites are still more difficult to use than single column pages since the user still has to scroll up and down to see the rest of the columns. Up and down, up and down.
Plus, many users don't use their browser windows full screen for good reason. I use mine at the standard 640x480 window dimensions. This allows me to cascade a good number of browsers accross the screen, thus aiding in multitasking. I know other people who use the browser at half that size, just to keep it out of the way of their other work. Others use tall and skinny windows, while others use long thing window sizes.
PocketPC Thoughts, while it does have a fold line at 640x480, still breaches the 800x600 to 1024x768 fold line. You HAVE to go up to 1024x768 in order to see the whole page width.

Enigma

10-10-2002, 02:06 AM

Just use the Opera browser, and if the font's too small, hit the big + key to zoom the window. Lots of other reasons to switch to Opera as well, but that's a little off-topic.

I like the smaller font. Pack more info on the screen.

Tony

kennyg

10-10-2002, 03:50 AM

Is it just me or are other people getting errors that they voted already when they haven't?

Well, since I all unable to vote I'll do so here, let me pick my own font! I've always hated when sites do that, but I suppose the main reason I have for that was the fact that I browse with a 19 inch monitor and a 3.5 inch pocket pc.
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