Uhm.... ok. If you say so [Archive] - Thoughts Media Forums

Ed Hansberry

10-03-2002, 12:00 AM

Would you get a device that looked like this today? • $500 • 200MHz processor • Proprietary expansion • 16MB onboard RAM • 8oz • 5.5" long, 2.9" wide, .93" thick • Manufacturer claim of 5 hrs of battery life with the backlight off I know one thing. If this had a Pocket PC OS on it, it would be absolutely laughed off of the planet. For comparison, lets look at the Casio E125. • $550 when new • 150MHz processor • Compact Flash expansion • 32MB onboard RAM • 8.8oz • 5.2" long, 3.3" wide, 0.8" thick • 8hrs of battery life, and had a removable battery so you could carry an extra. The e125 was unquestionably a niche product and a low volume seller due to its heft. I am amazed at the raves the product on top is getting. Do you think it would be getting the same raves if the Pocket PC OS was on it or would it be blasted as the E125 often was? Let me ask it another way. Would the E125 have been lauded had it had the Palm OS on it as the device above has been? If you haven't guessed already, the device spec'd out above is named in the forum. <!> It is the NX60, from Sony. Yes, I know it has a keyboard, the clamshell design and whatnot. But how many times have I heard "Who needs all of that? It must be small and able to fit in my pocket. I don't need all that excess!" Now Sony has a device with that "excess" and it is the greatest thing since sliced bread from those same sites and people that have blasted anything Pocket PC because it wasn't Palm V sized. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif" /> I guess the thing that gets me is consistency. "You don't need it until we have it." Uhm... ok. If you say so.

JonnoB

10-03-2002, 12:08 AM

Consistency with the PalmOS camp and zealots? Come on Ed, I think you are asking a bit too much. I think it all comes down to either envy, anti-MS bias or both.

Dave Conger

10-03-2002, 12:15 AM

Just a note, it is the NX60 (there is no NX70).

Ed Hansberry

10-03-2002, 12:17 AM

Just a note, it is the NX60 (there is no NX70).
Indeed. Changed. They changed their numbering scheme for the NX vs the NR. Thanks!

heov

10-03-2002, 12:39 AM

First off, Sony will most likely, within 3-4 months, release this model in the T series design (w/o keyboard, CF, and camera, probably with new resolution too).

Also, you forgot to mention it's a 200 Mhz Xscale vs. a 150 Mhz MIPS (though probably about the same power).

You also forgot to mention that the Clie has twice as many pixels than the Casio, that's also transflective (iPaq 3900). That is a BIG point that know one should miss- the screen is very important too MANY people...

Oh yeah, did you forget to say that Proprietory exapnsion is DUAL SLOTS (MS+CF(sony only, for now)). No one says the toshiba e740 as standard expansion and the iPaq has SD expansion- work on the same level by naming the slots, you may misguide people.

Also, you seem to be uninformed of Sony's product line.
For those who do not need a camera, they get the NX60.
For those who do not need the keyboard, shorter battery life, size, they get a T series (655c).
For those who do not want MP3s, they get an sj30.
For those who do not want Color, they get an sl20.
For those who do not want lithium ion batteries, they get an sl10.
For those who want lower resolution, they get a Palm, and maybe even a PPC.

Trust me- sony will update their product line.

Yes, the battery life is low- so was some of the toshiba's and iPaqs, they too were laughed at, they learned from their mistakes; so will Sony (within a 2 months i bet, unlike PPC manufactures that take about a year to upgrade).

Also, note that this is Sony's FIRST Palm OS 5 pda, remember their first Palm OS 3 device? It failed, but now their one of the most innovative companies out on the market, if not THE most innovative.

Remember HP's first PPC, it too had it's weak points. Don't dismiss a product so quickly- especially if you've never even SEEN one in person...

Personally, I love PPC Thoughts and the news they give me, including some of your comments. Although I understand this site is PPC bias, which I don't have a problem with (since you're not claiming you have unbias material), your (Ed) posts on Palm are misleading.

Also, just to note, it's .93 inches thick at the CF slot, not uniformly.

mookie123

10-03-2002, 12:41 AM

Call it wicked,

but am I the only one who thinks Sony is hedging their PDA bet by developing a PDA based on Xscale? In case when Palm Inc. starts acting up seing their PDA sales suffer because of Sony, they will have a big stick to wave. (we'll put PPC OS on our product)

Consider this, The first rumor was moto's MX1, and what's more I don't think Xscale receives Palm OS certification before the other chips. But here we are, the first OS5.0 released. Maybe Palm Inc. wants to prove that the OS5.0 can be adopted quickly on various differing brand. But if so, they sure do a shoddy job with the Tungsten being 2 months late. (That's 1/4 of a PDA shelf life)

It would be really funny, if Sony start offering a line of product with 2 OS options.

pro_worm

10-03-2002, 01:02 AM

Gee Heov, you really killed THAT topic :roll:

toshtoshtosh

10-03-2002, 01:13 AM

I still don't know about that 5 hour battery life figure you guys are throwing around. It sounds inaccurate.

From what I remember that was extrapolated from Sony's statement "half an hour a day for 10 days"?

In that case it's pretty good, because an Xscale PPC will lose over half its power in 10 days even when it's off (if not more).

Which means that the Sony can get 5 hours (backlight off) with less than half the battery. This could mean 10 or 15 hours use over the span of one day. Either way, the 5 hour estimate (backlight off) is wrong, and should not be used as a basis for comparison.

mookie123

10-03-2002, 01:59 AM

...
Which means that the Sony can get 5 hours (backlight off) with less than half the battery. This could mean 10 or 15 hours use over the span of one day. Either way, the 5 hour estimate (backlight off) is wrong, and should not be used as a basis for comparison.

I don't think we are in 33Mhz dragonball land with 8mb memory anymore. Sony is using the exact same Xscale and memory type as the rest of PPC, which means bucket that hold charge has the same amount of holes draining the charge over time. ( And no, Sony hasn't invent mytical super dense battery that the rest of PPC industry hasn't discover either.)

so, what you are comparing is apple with apple here. There is no hope that Sony can perform 15 hrs straight on single charge, or the battery won't drain charge slowly like the rest of PPC. Ever wonder why Sony only put 200Mhz and no built in wireless?

hrianto

10-03-2002, 02:55 AM

Sony is a consumer product manufacturer and a good thing about this company is their product life cycle for their CLIE line is very short and that means you can bet on inovation on top of inovation and also choices.

I am not a Clie user but I still use my Palm IIIxe beside my iPaq and my Jornada 820 from time to time. For battery life which PPC can beat monochrome Palm device? I know it's monochrome but what is wrong with monochrome if you use the device for reading ebooks or news, taking notes, check your calendar?

I read ebooks on both Palm IIIxe and iPaq. When you read for hours, iPaq battery have to be recharged from time to time then I switch to my Palm IIIxe and continue reading or to my Jornada 820.

Ed Hansberry

10-03-2002, 03:45 AM

Also, you forgot to mention it's a 200 Mhz Xscale vs. a 150 Mhz MIPS (though probably about the same power).
Nuh uh. Go back and reread it.

You also forgot to mention that the Clie has twice as many pixels than the Casio, that's also transflective (iPaq 3900). That is a BIG point that know one should miss- the screen is very important too MANY people...
And you forgot to get the point of the post. It is the size I was referring to. I didn't get into all the details. The E125 looks as good or better indoors than the iPAQ or Sony. Horrible outside, but inside, it is a fantastic screen. I also didn't mention how the E125 could multitask, use a bazillion CF accessories, etc. It wasn't meant to be a direct comparison on each point. It was about the tired old "big bloated Pocket PC that requires a big device and sucks battery life" argument.

Also, you seem to be uninformed of Sony's product line.
For those who do not need a camera, they get the NX60.
For those who do not need the keyboard, shorter battery life, size, they get a T series (655c).
For those who do not want MP3s, they get an sj30.
For those who do not want Color, they get an sl20.
For those who do not want lithium ion batteries, they get an sl10.
For those who want lower resolution, they get a Palm, and maybe even a PPC.

Yes. Very interesting. Irrelevant though. None of these devices have the specs I outlined. Again, go read the post.
Personally, I love PPC Thoughts and the news they give me, including some of your comments. Although I understand this site is PPC bias, which I don't have a problem with (since you're not claiming you have unbias material), your (Ed) posts on Palm are misleading.

Also, just to note, it's .93 inches thick at the CF slot, not uniformly.
Ok, and .85 or .8 elsewhere? Nothing I said was misleading. Go look up "opinion" and you will see I cannot possibly be wrong about my opinion.

toshtoshtosh

10-03-2002, 03:52 AM

marconelly

10-03-2002, 04:00 AM

I'm absolutelly impressed with new Clie NX70. High res screen, built in photo/video camera, keyboard, 200MHz processor (can you imagine just how fast will Palm OS fly with that?) and a sheer coolness factor that is just through the roof :O

My main concern is that I've heard screen on NR models was not as good as Ipaq 3950, despite being transreflective, and despite both being made by Sony.

My other concern is that I'm not a big fan of Palm OS, but the new launcher/UI looks extremely slick.

I don't mind propriatary WiFi card as it's still very affordabe (and again better than my Casio that I can't get online)

Now if someone would only make a MAME port for it :))

heov

10-03-2002, 04:01 AM

Xscale is and always has been part of the Palm OS Ready Program.

How did I kill the topic- just when you discuss things about the different OS on the different machines, don't forget to talk about the big points he missed, such as the transflective screen that has 2 times more pixels. And the keybaord- the keybaord is not just a "feature", it is designed into the PDA, it is a big aspect of the PDA, and people don't buy things they don't use- that's like asking why would someone buy a PPC with CF and SD if they just use the CF slot- the keyboard adds weight, size and decrease battery life- it's a big thing for the PDA.

Back to topic about why everyone is raving... who is raving again? All i've heard were complaints about the lack of innovation from sony and this being the LEAST innovated product yet... But, it's great for palm because it is now capable of doing almost everything a PPC can do (in practical senses). Yes, it doesn't have a file system, etc, but you can still get on the net, still get on WLAN, type of papers, record voice, play music, play good games, play videos, etc. plus it can take pictures too!

Also, I believe sony used the same battery from the older NR series- so the Xscale drains more power than the Dragonball, and the power for CF plus the newer camera puts a heft toll on this machine. I wouldn't be surprised if it does have poor battery life.

johncruise

10-03-2002, 04:35 AM

fundmgr90210... the way I see it is it's not an "I hate Palm" post... it's a "this is how E-125 was offered before and Palm zealots were slamming it then... now what would you say about the CLIE now?" post. (when I say "was offered"... just like what Ed said... it's not a side to side comparison of features but what I meant was the battery usage and bulkiness of the unit)

Peace.

Robotbeat

10-03-2002, 04:58 AM

These arguments against Ed are stupid. All Ed said was that he thinks it's stupid that a Palm with hardware specs below that of Pocket PCs 2 years ago (less RAM, even bigger; not taking the screen into account) is getting so much attention. If you look at this from the perspective of a veteran Pocket PC enthusiast (like Ed or me), you can understand his frustration. Sony isn't innovating. Their basic idea of the clamshell design is almost as old as the cellphone (well, actually, look at the communicator in the original Star Trek...), and the rest of the specs could have been made up by Sony guessing about a way to beat the hardware on Pocket PCs when they were still Palm-Sized PCs. The only really "new" part of the hardware is the camera. Sure, the resolution is really good, but it's ratio is like that of Pocket PCs more than Palm's 1:1 ratio (years ago, people were asking for even better resolution from PPCs and some PDAs running CE have been seen at VGA hardware resolutions; also, Sony's position as a supplier of LCDs gives it the ability to use expensive LCDs and still make a decent profit). I guess if us PPC enthusiasts really wanted to stretch it, Handheld PCs, which are "clam-shell"-like devices, do have as good of a resolution as Sony's best PDA.

This article by Ed is not misleading. He talks about how the Sony PDA is not really so amazing to us PPC users. He doesn't say that it stinks. I guess it's like being all excited about Mac's getting a 4x AGP port on select models when PCs have had them STANDARD for about a year (I know about the technical reasons for why Macs don't need a 4x port as much and I also know that doubling the AGP bus speed only gives like 10 or 15% increase in performance... don't over-analyze examples or analogies... they are only given to help someone understand what someone else is trying to explain).

Back to the point of this conversation, the only thing I envy about the Sony is the screen. All the other stuff either doesn't matter to me (keyboard) or isn't as good (only 16 MB RAM and 200 MHz XScale? pfft...) or is mostly a novelty (the camera, which you can of course get on PPCs, although non-integrated, but I would never want to get such a camera like the CF cameras or Sony's integrated one unless they gave it to me for 100% free). PPCs are still much more expandable. And, ironically, thin. PPCs are smarter devices that seem more thought-out than Sony's devices. Integrated WiFi is a very big selling point for someone like myself who lives in a place populated with WiFi networks. A lot of people complain about the size of PDAs. Today's PPCs are very thin. Dual integrated expansion with the option of external expansion is common. Standard yet high-end specs like integrated stereo audio (not codec dependent, like Palms basically are), integrated microphone, high resolution color screen, a lot of RAM (32 MB), non-volatile FlashROM for safe storage of extremely sensitive information that must be always available and also OS updates, and a standard processor platform that is at least as good as the next generation of the very best Palm device and will be available in the future. Sony's device seems like a thrown-together tech novelty/concept device. It has really nice various features, but how important or useful are they, really? The Palm software can't use the XScale processor directly yet, the screen is nice but the OS doesn't use it to it's full advantage (like I believe the PPC has), the keyboard is really nice for some people but takes up a ton of space for others, and the camera has little usefulness, since you can't take high-resolution pictures with it that you would actually want to print out (I can only speak for myself, but how often do YOU actually use the camera in front of your PC to take pictures of yourself to print out?). Now, these are only the things that are considered "amazing advantages" of this Sony device. I would personally just like a nice $300 PPC that's really thin and has nice expansion and a fast processor with plenty of RAM to put those great gam*cough*... uhhh... productive programs that make good use of the well-matured cpu platform (such as Pocket Artist and Photogenics or whatever). If I'm going to spend more, I'd like dual expansion, 400MHz processor that runs older programs as well, 64 MB of RAM, and integrated WiFi. USB host support would be cool, too. That's right, I'm a PPC enthusiast. I have my reasons, too.

BTW, don't think that I'm trying to be unbiased. Most of this post is at least somewhat biased, although that doesn't mean that it is entirely untrue, because you can put the right spin on just about anything and make it say almost the opposite of the same thing with a different spin.

Paul P

10-03-2002, 05:44 AM

These arguments against Ed are stupid. All Ed said was that he thinks it's stupid that a Palm with hardware specs below that of Pocket PCs 2 years ago (less RAM, even bigger; not taking the screen into account) is getting so much attention.

This article by Ed is not misleading. He talks about how the Sony PDA is not really so amazing to us PPC users.

That's the point, it's NOT supposed to be so amazing to us PPC users; but IT IS supposed to be amazing to current Palm users. So this is really not a big deal. No offense to Ed, but his perspective is a little off. I realize that he mainly wanted to emphasize the bias of the media, but comparing PocketPC with Palm reminds me of some of the reviewers who didn't really get that PocketPC Phones were 'all about data first' (something Ed correctly pointed out not so long ago). Sony is targetting a different market. The new Clie was not meant for you guys.

Sony isn't innovating. Their basic idea of the clamshell design is almost as old as the cellphone (well, actually, look at the communicator in the original Star Trek...), and the rest of the specs could have been made up by Sony guessing about a way to beat the hardware on Pocket PCs when they were still Palm-Sized PCs.

Have you really looked at the device? Innovation in design with respect to what Palm has to offer in general is tremendous.

(BTW, please ignore my avatar...I am loyal, but not that loyal :) )

spursdude

10-03-2002, 05:47 AM

so, what you are comparing is apple with apple here. There is no hope that Sony can perform 15 hrs straight on single charge, or the battery won't drain charge slowly like the rest of PPC.

You're agreeing with me. I'm saying that the Clie probably has similar battery life to the other PPCs (5 hours with backlight on), not 5 hours without the backlight. People are using the LATTER as a disadvantage of the clie compared to PPCs when it's probably incorrect.

honestly, i have serious doubts that sony actually took battery drain due to time standing by into account (as your first post said). my guess is that sony feels that 10 days sounds a whole lot better than 5 hours with backlight off...which it does.

and seriously, if sony could claim 5 hrs with the backlight on and 15 with the backlight off, i think that they would try to say 30 days with 1/2 hour usage everyday with backlight off.

and do x-scale devices really have that much of a battery drain? i seriously doubt it......

marconelly

10-03-2002, 05:54 AM

I would also like to point out that Clie NR series had the *same* battery specifications - 10 days, 30 minutes per day, backlight off. I assume if it didn't bothered people then, it won't bother them now.

Besides, I don't think that translates to 5 hours of continuous usage. Battery drains even when the device is turned off, and 10 days is a pretty long period, so I assume the battery would drain quite a lot even if the device is not used much.

"That's the point, it's NOT supposed to be so amazing to us PPC users; but IT IS supposed to be amazing to current Palm users. "

Actually, I'm a PPC enthusiast and I'm pretty damn amazed what they crammed into this device and how elegant it all looks. Way better than any pocket pc on the market right now, IMO. It looks like something from... bright and better future, for the lack of better words :) Integrated photo/video camera, to me is a much more interesting thing, than just about anything PPC makers have come up in the last year or so.

As for the processor speed - if Palm OS was so snappy with it's 33MHz processor, can you imagine just how fast this thing is going to be?

The only thing I don't quite like is the lack of gamepad of any kind. Again, there's a snap add on that corrects this 'problem'

BoyWithPockets

10-03-2002, 06:14 AM

It's comparing apples and oranges. For example, is a PocketPC even usable with only 16MB of RAM? On PalmOS it's more than enough to run all the applications. And even if you are going to compare.. why leave out important features like built-in keyboard, digital still and video camera, MPEG4 video playback and the highest resolution screen of any PDA.

On the other hand, the battery life is pathetic no matter who you compare it to. And the CF slot is not as useful as it can be while taking up valuable space.

So there's good and bad, but this article seems to be too one sided. If you are going to compare... do the whole bit. Even as a PPC fan, if somebody gave me the choice of the two, would I seriously pick the Casio over the Sony? I don't think so!

spursdude

10-03-2002, 06:16 AM

It's comparing apples and oranges. For example, is a PocketPC even usable with only 16MB of RAM? On PalmOS it's more than enough to run all the applications.

now that sony is going for the whole "multimedia" thing, more than 16MB RAM is definitely necessary.

Paul P

10-03-2002, 06:16 AM

"That's the point, it's NOT supposed to be so amazing to us PPC users; but IT IS supposed to be amazing to current Palm users. "

Actually, I'm a PPC enthusiast and I'm pretty damn amazed what they crammed into this device and how elegant it all looks. Way better than any pocket pc on the market right now, IMO. It looks like something from... bright and better future, for the lack of better words :) Integrated photo/video camera, to me is a much more interesting thing, than just about anything PPC makers have come up in the last year or so.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I agree with you. I am interested in everything Sony has to offer. I was thinking more along the lines of Clies' functionality and how there is really no comparison when it comes to which operating system is more powerful or versatile.

mookie123

10-03-2002, 06:19 AM

All i've heard were complaints about the lack of innovation from sony and this being the LEAST innovated product yet... But, it's great for palm because it is now capable of doing almost everything a PPC can do (in practical senses). Yes, it doesn't have a file system, etc, but you can still get on the net, still get on WLAN, type of papers, record voice, play music, play good games, play videos, etc. plus it can take pictures too!

Also, I believe sony used the same battery from the older NR series- so the Xscale drains more power than the Dragonball, and the power for CF plus the newer camera puts a heft toll on this machine. I wouldn't be surprised if it does have poor battery life.

you are trying to forward NX as an innovative design, but at the same time being so apologetic on all the mediocre performance. ("it is capable of doing 'almost' everything"...) quite a disconnect, isnt' it?

last time I check "matching performance is called catching up, not being innovative. Lemme ask, is there anything that an E125 cannot do what NX can? All items you mention are available on E125 years ago, which is main point about NX. It's NOT an innovative machine as a package. The slots are cirppled, the OS are limited, the basic specs merely match a 2 yrs old machine, etc.

You want innovation, try out doing.....the iPAQ H5000, the one with dual wireless, fingerprint scan, new OS capabilites, etc..... all that with half the size and a third of the price...

than the world might consider that innovation, instead of rehashing old chasis with low end spec that other company sells for $299.

BoyWithPockets

10-03-2002, 06:23 AM

Why would they need more than 16MB? The software doesn't take up that much room and you can't store any audio or video files in the RAM because of the dumb way PalmOS treats everything in RAM as databases. You have to buy Memory Sticks... and that's what Sony wants.

The saddest part is that the largest size Sony makes is only 128MB. No match for a 518MB SD or larger CF. With all this multimedia stuff, 128MB isn't going to cut it anymore.

spursdude

10-03-2002, 06:26 AM

it seems the innovation debate has gone two ways.

1. features. pocket pc wins.....period. we've been able to have digital cameras for a looong time. we've had MP3 playback since winCE came out. we've had video playback since winCE came out also. we've had wifi since at least PPC2002, maybe winCE (i'm not sure, i've only had a PPC for about half a year). transflective screen is the one exception (although a fairly large one). of course, now the ipaq has it, and the viewsonic shall have it as well.

2. design. sony is doing pretty well here. honestly, i've never seen a PDA like this (except the NR series). the flip-up design, thumb keyboard, and swivel screen (albeit flimsy) are all quite "innovative." digital camera built has never been seen in a pocket pc. of course, sony loses on bulky size.

PlayAgain?

10-03-2002, 07:30 AM

I'm personally quite impressed with the video capture that this range offers, and MP4 is really quite a good format as well. The new Nokia 7650 captures video, but with such a small amount of RAM, the only option is MP4 that can put around 12 seconds into 90k at reasonable quality.

I'd expect Sony to do a well tidy job.

This aside, I thought Ed made some valid points and as to those who complain about his anti-Palm bias, this is a Microsoft site so take it with a pinch of salt. I don't suppose Palm sites are particularly complimentary of Microsoft either (I know Symbian ones aren't :wink: ).

But anyway, is it really that important?

Merlion

10-03-2002, 10:14 AM

Call it wicked,
It would be really funny, if Sony start offering a line of product with 2 OS options.
I mentioned several times on different forums that maybe Sony should consider making devices for the 2 platforms. They can produce very innovative & cutting-edge hardware, which should serve the PPC platform better, but maybe the new Palm OS is better geared for such hardware now. Either way, they brought much innovation to the Palm platform, to the extend that I don't think the Palm OS was quite ready for in the past, but which really transformed the image & capabilities of Palm OS devices. In fact, I believe Sony really did breathe new life into the high-end PalmOS devices.
Sony will be able to up the ante of PPC devt., if they should step into the PPC realm as well, esp. when they could make full use of the full potential of the multimedia capabilities of the PPC platform.

As for looks though, it's very subjective, & I don't really like the swiveling display. I'd rather, if they wanna make a screen with a keyboard compromising thickness, have them make a clamshell-type device which is much more practical, but may not be as sexy. But I guess that wouldn't be in keeping with Sony's flashy style. ;)

Initiating product innovations on both platforms would be great. Now, PPC mfrs seem to want to compete at the entry-level market as well. With Palm OS devices competing at the high-end multimedia PDA market, only the consumers will benefit. :D

OK, that's all I wanna say .. more to respond to mookie123's comments than to contribute to this thread topic. :roll: :wink:

farnold

10-03-2002, 11:47 AM

Hm, I thinks, it's sad to make that a discussion about specs or PALM OS vs. PocketPC OS.

I for myself would never ever consider buying a SONY. It doesn't offer what I need in a little device and I consider it more being a toy (after all SONY is the PLAYSTATION maker :lol: )

Still, I am very happy to see SONY out there and I hope they will be very successful with their products. They are the only serious competitor for MS out there and competition is what we need for better products and cheaper prices. All of a sudden we see devices like the TOSHIBA e310 at very reasonable prices. Don't tell me, that's got nothing to do with SONY...

fishd1

10-03-2002, 11:49 AM

What I'm surprised at is the people saying "wow, 200mhz! PalmOS is gonna fly!"... well, maybe not. This is not good ol' PalmOS. This is PalmOS 5... re-written during the companies deepest time of trouble and with engineers who previously worked on much better specc'ed machines (BeIA stuff). Now while I have the greatest respect for the ex-Be engineers (I was a BeOS 4 & 5 user) how likely are they to get it right first time?

The next thing we have to look at is all your current apps are either going the way of the dodo or going to have to work through emulation... as we all know, emulation is handy, but usually sucks.

Now I'm not coming down on any particular side of the fence here, neither PocketPCs nor Palm devices float my boat any more (I'm a disgruntled and abandoned HPC2000 user myself) though I used to own both, but I do find it ironic that a year or so ago Palm was talking about the Zen of Palm, and is now touting the self same features it was criticizing PocketPC for... it's just too funny! :twisted:

Sslixtis

10-03-2002, 11:52 AM

This is all irrelevant, when Sony buys Palm Source after the split they will make a better "Palm" OS than Palm ever did and their devices will be just a different version of PPCs. I'm all for the competition, keeps both sides from stagnating!

And as far as market share goes, that is steadily changing. Heck most people call ANY PDA a Palm, sort of like facial tissue is Kleenex or adhesive bandages are Band Aids.

I was watching the television premiere of Without a Trace the other night and they said that the missing woman had even left her Palm Pilot and they panned the camera to the coffee table and there lay in all its glory not a Palm but an HP Jornada 56x series PPC! Most people that I have met that insist on a Palm are either die hard Palm Loyalists or buying it for the Name Brand.

But hey, if you Palm Loyalists want to come to Pocket PC Thoughts and complain about PPC biased views, come along and be welcome. It's atleast amusing if not educational! :lol:

Warwick

10-03-2002, 12:28 PM

Well this is fun isnt it, I have to have my 2c worth too. I have got to be the most unbiased person here :P I am a developer, I hardly use my PDA's for anything other than developing software and playing the odd game (shh) I have worked on Palm and Pocket PC and I have to say that moving from windows development to Pocket PC development is a snack, but that Palm OS well thats something else....

What I realy want to say though is this site is Pro Pocket PC, anything else sux, its like going to an apple user group and trying to talk about PC. Its not going to work. If your Pro Palm and like to look in here all good and well but you gotta expect the Palm bashing, I love bashing palm, simply for the reasons stated here, I like palms for what they are, but I tell you my HP200LX is much more fun.....
3870 is even more fun :)

Ed Hansberry

10-03-2002, 12:38 PM

This was not and is not intended as a bashing thread at all. I just looked at the specs of the NX series and couldn't believe how many people were going ga-ga over the device, and it was these same people or sites blasting the Pocket PC devices of 2-3 years ago for their size. Not one of them said "well, true, it is large, but it has 32MB of RAM, an integrated CF slot (something only one Palm had back then), can play music and video, has Office viewers and editors built in, etc." It was always "too big. Short battery life. Don't need all those extra fluffy pics. I want a PDA, not a little computer." So, yes, I totally ignored the functionality in this comparo - the exact same thing the E125 bashers did in mid 2000. :wink:

The NX series is a neat device. I personally wouldn't have it though, regardless of the OS because I have no use for a thumb keyboard or the flipping screen, not when I can get the same or more functionality in a smaller device. If Sony put the PPC OS on some of its other lines I might consider getting one, but somehow I cannot get past that Memory Stick. :?

Merlion

10-03-2002, 01:21 PM

Heck most people call ANY PDA a Palm, sort of like facial tissue is Kleenex or adhesive bandages are Band Aids.
That kinda reminded me of the first WinCE stylus-based PDAs, i.e., the Casio E-10, Philips Nino, & Everex Freestyle A-10, which were named PalmPCs by Microsoft. A couple of months later, 3Com sued MS for using the 'Palm' name & after some legal wrangling, MS changed the name to the rather awkward Palm-sized PC.

Mojo Jojo

10-03-2002, 02:56 PM

Pound for Pound, Apples to Oranges, The Yada to the Yada...

Hardware alone:
Yeah I have to agree, the Sony isn't much to look at in terms of specs. Matches in some areas and fall behinds in others for a machine released 2 years ago. Besides the camera, not much I am looking at impresses me.

Physical Dimensions:
I had an E-100, same box as the E-125, and boy that thing was as described, a brick, a briefcase rider, a form of phsyical defense that should have been registered as a possible deadly weapon. Looking at the two the dimensions, the Sony isn't too impressive. Almost like a regretion of design for the Palm machines. The 'Palm Group' has always targeted the size of PPC's as being bulky and cumbersome. To which I agreed... smaller and better portability is what I was after...

Using just those two criteria... the Sony is underwhelming.

So I have to ask this. Lets bring it into focus a bit and compare hardware to hardware... the best match I can think of is a Zaurus (camera, keyboard) but with 64 megs of memory for $399 at the local staples... and the Sony is going for how much? Why the price jump?

This really is an opinion thread and mine is that, the Sony is sort of a side step instead of a step forward when compared to the WHOLE market. Compared to other Palms... it IS a step forward.

Which leads me to my next question, what would people think if you took a 400mhz Xscale processor, 64meg, a form factor of .62 Height, 3.o width, and a depth of 4.9, with 4 inch diaganol screen and had it run Palm os5? That would be leaps forward... but none of the Palm companies want to do so... Don't say it is impossible to get that sort of machine that the price would be astornomical... its a Toshiba 550G and in the same price range.

Anyways... how about them Mets?

marconelly

10-03-2002, 04:00 PM

Janak Parekh

10-03-2002, 04:09 PM

So, yes, I totally ignored the functionality in this comparo - the exact same thing the E125 bashers did in mid 2000. :wink:
Unfortunately, most people are misreading your point, I think :D Here's my take on the situation.

First - battery life - I think the answer is that, gradually, people are becoming accustomed to recharging their unit every night. With the proliferation of other gadgets, especially cell phones, it's no longer unusual at the end of the day to take out everything from your pockets or bag and plug them into AC adapters. My parents, who used to be utterly forgetful about recharging their cell phones, are now quite conscientous about it.

Second - size - it's no longer considered "geeky" to be carrying handheld devices around, and people have suddenly discovered carrying things on their belt, in their bag, in Mobile Pants, whatever. The public has evolved to the notion of having both a cell phone and a PDA in their pants. I notice this most acutely on the subway - two years ago, I felt like I was the only person to take a PDA out of my pocket, and being an iPaq it was even more noticeable. Now, not only do I notice PDA's being used in the subway all the time, I see a broader range of people using it: not just the dot-commers and executives, but the single moms, the middle-class workers, the jeans-clad trendy types, what have you. So I think that people have been accustomed to size.

Third - PalmOS's gradual (err, very slow) evolution has made it palatable for the average end-user to accept the above changes. Microsoft tried to reinvent the category ahead of its time, and was a little too far ahead. Of course, now, the PPC OS has the upper hand in that the core is well-established and needs little evolution, while the PalmOS core is changing substantially with each new version. However, most average consumers are lazy by nature and don't like to switch drastically. Palm has done a lousy job of keeping the technologists, but has just managed to keep consumers happy so far. It's like Windows evolution - so long as people are "happy enough" with Windows, they'll stay with it, and that's why people lived through the terrible 3.1, 95 and 98 operating systems until more stable versions like 2k and XP came out.

In any case, I agree with you that early PSPC- and PPC-bashers were extremely short-sighted. Just wait until they get real file systems... then they'll be like, "I could never live without this". What they should be saying is "I like PalmOS, and I'm too resistant to switching to PPC because (a) I hate MS, (b) I hate PPC, (c) I'm closed-minded, (d) eh, PalmOS is good enough for now, (e) all of the above" or somesuch.

Is that a warbling-enough rant? :)

--bdj

spursdude

10-03-2002, 04:36 PM

I don't quite understand people saying this new Clie is somehow underwhelming technically when it has:

- Highest resolution screen
- Built in photo/video camera (for me, screen and this alone are more impressive and innovative than anything from PPC camp recently)
- High quality MP3 player with remote (only Casio EM500 had this extremely neat feature but I'm sure MP3 playback will be higher quality on Sony device)
- Dual slots, one of them being for memory stick - device that Sony will (and already is to a point) offering whole variety of different expansions, such as GPS, picture indexer with a small screen, TV tuner...

To me, this is a TRUE multimedia device, and there is nothing on PPC to match it, much less to match it in style and form it comes in.

I would also like to remind people who complain about 200MHz processor that PPC doesn't have much better to offer anyways, as the new Xscales at 400 have been underwhelming at best, compared to older 206 MHz devices. I easily expect this device to be fast beyond anyone's expectations, as it's OS has always been very efficient in processor usage.

-high res screen: you got us there
-built in camera: first, the camera is too low quality for any people to use to either replace their digital camera or or video camera. pocket pc's have had a camera accessory available for who knows how long, although sony is the first to integrate it into the design.
-MP3 player: i guess a remote is cool, although it doesn't bother me at all. keep in mind that windows CE devices had MP3 capability, way back when.
-dual slots. sony has no advantage or innovation here. first of all, they stick with their low capacity memory stick for one of them. what's up with only up to 128MB??? with my maestro, i can expand it to 1.5GB if i really wanted to. the "wifi slot" (or the proprietary CF slot), is honestly not innovative at all. it's a crippled CF slot that can do one of the hundreds of things PPC CF slots can do.

about palm OS being fast: i'm not so sure anymore. part of the reason palm OS was so fast in the past was because it couldn't multi-task, and it did very few intensive processes (things just like video and mp3). now that it has all these features that people claim have "bloated" pocket pc, it's possible that the palm OS will run at a crawl.

kaiden.1

10-03-2002, 04:55 PM

Well; my first PPC was the Casio E-125; and I still use it. I now own a toshiba E-740 and love it, but the Casio was an awesome PPC and it never gave me problems, I really don't know why it caused so much resentment? :? :(

mookie123

10-03-2002, 04:55 PM

- Highest resolution screen
- Built in photo/video camera (for me, screen and this alone are more impressive and innovative than anything from PPC camp recently)
- High quality MP3 player with remote (only Casio EM500 had this extremely neat feature but I'm sure MP3 playback will be higher quality on Sony device)
- Dual slots, one of them being for memory stick - device that Sony will (and already is to a point) offering whole variety of different expansions, such as GPS, picture indexer with a small screen, TV tuner...

To me, this is a TRUE multimedia device, and there is nothing on PPC to match it, much less to match it in style and form it comes in.

I would also like to remind people who complain about 200MHz processor that PPC doesn't have much better to offer anyways, as the new Xscales at 400 have been underwhelming at best, compared to older 206 MHz devices. I easily expect this device to be fast beyond anyone's expectations, as it's OS has always been very efficient in processor usage.

what are you babbling about?
Take a look at this Benchmark number (toward the end of the page)
http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/zayo-review.html

About being a "true multimedia PDA".
does it even HAVE an integrated multimedia player ala media player 8? don't you think it's pretty basic requirement? From what I gather so far it has two seperate player that plays mpeg. and mp3. Hence those are the only 2 advance multimedia format it can handle, plus the 128 mb memory limitation.

Which mean, you cannot watch wireless treaming multimedia, have to compress full length movie on low bit rate to fit the MS card. Plus other widely used multimedia files such as Divx, WMV, real, etc etc...

but yes as a multimedia PDA it has the edge of having built in big screen and ability to record mpeg. But than the option exist on PPC such as Nexian camera sleeve or Fly jacket multimedia, with ability to do TV/camera video capture. (you hook it up to a REAL video camera with S video in)

Fly jacket review
http://reviews.pocketnow.com/content.cgi?db=reviews&id=204

no matter how hard you try, there is NO such option in Palm OS/NX series.

So the question about a "true" multimedia PDA becomes: a device that can input/output numerous standard video camera, computer monitor, TV, camera, or.....a device that can use toy camera with limited storage and transfer capability? You are touting a maching with cripple peripheral capbility, almost non existance multimedia software beside minimal players, and does not even support standard video equipment input.

marconelly

10-03-2002, 05:14 PM

mookie, if I wanted that Monstrosity in my pocket, I would rather carry around my whole computer and video camera around the neck. There is something called 'style' and I don't see it in that fly jacket thing. As for some other of your points:

does it even HAVE an integrated multimedia player ala media player 8? don't you think it's pretty basic requirement? From what I gather so far it has two seperate player that plays mpeg. and mp3.

Yes, it has two players - just how I like it. I think both will work very nice, and the remote controller is priceless as anyone with Casio EM500 can confirm.

plus the 128 mb memory limitation.

1GB memory sticks are on the way. It's all but confirmed, and you'd be crazy to think they will stop at 128Mb.

Which mean, you cannot watch wireless treaming multimedia, have to compress full length movie on low bit rate to fit the MS card. Plus other widely used multimedia files such as Divx, WMV, real, etc etc...

Real and Divx require additional players on Pocket PC. What makes you think they won't be made for this device once it comes out?

I'm really sorry for 'betraying' the PPC camp, but this thing looks like something I'd like to own and use. It offers a lot of what I want and in a package that nothing on the market matches right now.

Janak Parekh

10-03-2002, 05:21 PM

Yes, it has two players - just how I like it. I think both will work very nice, and the remote controller is priceless as anyone with Casio EM500 can confirm.
Indeed, the remote controller is a feature that no other PPC or Palm has, and it's sorely lacking. I wonder if anyone has built a CF remote adapter or something... hmmm...

1GB memory sticks are on the way. It's all but confirmed, and you'd be crazy to think they will stop at 128Mb.
They've been talking about this for years, though. It's frustrating. SD and MS were neck-in-neck for a while, but you can buy a 512MB SD card now. I was seriously considering a NR70V, but it's not a choice for audio if I can't get a bigger memory stick...

Real and Divx require additional players on Pocket PC. What makes you think they won't be made for this device once it comes out?
This is an interesting question. Will they have to write this to work through POSE? How will the performance be? We don't have answers, and as someone else pointed out in the thread the "leanness" that PalmOS used to have is slowly going away.

By all means, I'll be watching this device closely, as will be everyone on this thread, but I'm going to hold my intentions to buy it until it's clear that it's a major step ahead of existing PPC's.

--bdj

mookie123

10-03-2002, 05:25 PM

I didn't say it's the most elegant solution. but merely point out the solution exist! while NX on the other hand doesn't have a CHOICE if you want to juggle data into and out from various video equipment.

OK, you want elegant and stylish solution how about this,

buy a digital video camera that support SD. Say something pocketable and ultra hip.
http://www.panasonic.com/consumer_electronics/ewear/sd_av.asp

and than put the SD into any PPC. voila......
you have higher quality video, far more usable camera, all that combined with more powerfull PDA to view, manipulate, disseminate.

NX cannot do that, you are stuck with using the toy camera, and the only way to bring out the video is using 128MG max MS. (ok the soon, almost, yet to be release 1Gig MS)

meanwhile all you can say your solution is "stylish", but I call it kitschy.

4AMFriday

10-03-2002, 05:36 PM

WTF?
Oh, I'm sorry.. I thought I had arrived at PocketPcThought.com. After being a daily reader of this site for well over a year now, I now find myself pointing my browser to alternate sites devoted to Pocket PC's for my daily dose, visiting this site close to last (if at all lately).

So this is Pocket PC Thoughts.. Sigh..
When did this site become so hell bent on spending so much time on constantly comparing Pocket PC's to Palm devices? I almost half expect to see comparative benchmarks posted here soon enough.

I own both a Sony Clie NR70V and Compaq iPAQ 3835, so I am in no way bias towards PPC or Palm, and I won't waste your time telling you how great or how horrible the Palm OS is compared to the PPC OS while on this site. So who gives that you have to constantly remind us that the Palm OS does not support multithreading, or that the new Clie NX device uses a proprietory CF communications slot. What the hell does that have to do with PPC?

While this does not apply to all of the editors on this site, there are the few of you, and you know who you are.. (cough.. ed.. cough..)

I'm sleeping with your lesbian girlfriend/cousin...
The cold hard fact is this site is well on its' way to becoming the "Jerry Springer" of Pocket PC websites. It's already on the slow side of the park as most of the news I read here I've read somewhere else days if not weeks before. Try focusing on more PPC news and less (bias or not) rants on Palm devices, stocks, management, etc..

This site would have done its readers so much more service if this particular article were about, for instance, the current $350 iPAQ 3835 special at CompUSA rather then the topic at hand. Apparently, the NX60 is just a more appropriate topic. What gives?

marconelly

10-03-2002, 05:40 PM

NX cannot do that, you are stuck with using the toy camera, and the only way to bring out the video is using 128MG max MS. (ok the soon, almost, yet to be release 1Gig MS)

Actually you can. All you have to do is to use appropriate Sony digital camera like this one:

http://www.sonystyle.com/home/item.jsp?hierc=9682x9129x9012&catid=&itemid=50321

Not that I think any of these devices can record very high quality video on a SD or MS anyways, and you have to pay twice...

Ed Hansberry

10-03-2002, 05:49 PM

This site would have done its readers so much more service if this particular article were about, for instance, the current $350 iPAQ 3835 special at CompUSA rather then the topic at hand. Apparently, the NX60 is just a more appropriate topic. What gives?
Let's see. On the front page by me right now:

• Smaller Toshiba SD Bluetooth card
• link to article on MS's mobile strategy
• Info on the "new" 128bit patch for Pocket PCs
• Link to article on mobile content, or lack thereof
• Specs on the Dell PDA
• Info on the Loox and US availability
• Canary Smartphone 2002
• Info on upcoming MS chat on "Wireless technology and your mobile device
• Two new iPAQs, one in the $200-400 range
• This thread
• Death of the GSM/GPRS sleeve for US iPAQ owners
• Contest for Speedball 2
• Death of Dataplay
• Two more articles I queued up last night - one on PPC settings and one on new hardware for the PPC

I'm sorry - your point again was? We try to cater to wide interests here. If this wasn't an interesting thread, it wouldn't have 45+ comments, ahead of Dell (40) and the Canary (29). If all you want is pricing, you can get that at www.shopper.com. If you want dry news, there are other sites for that that cater to those desires very efffectively. If you want our thoughts, well, imagine that - PocketPCThoughts.com. Whoda thunk it?

And in checking my Thoughts inbox (from the Contact page) I am not seeing an email from you alerting us to the Compusa deal. When did you send it in?

klinux

10-03-2002, 05:53 PM

Casio E-125 easily overclocks to 180 Mhz and, with a tiny amount of work, to 200 Mhz. I have yet to see benchmarks but this close the performance gap, if any, between the new Clie and the E-125.

marconelly

10-03-2002, 07:07 PM

4AMFriday

10-03-2002, 07:43 PM

Here's a nice little piece of news for all you straight from PDA Geek.

I asked about the wireless slot (which takes CF cards). It's definitely Sony card-ready, but you can use other cards. It's NOT proprietary, okay? The Sony people told me that the Sony card will definitely work out of the box (read: others will work, but you'll probably have to diddle around a bit to make them.)

Scott R

10-03-2002, 08:44 PM

Ed, I just spoke with all of the Palm users and we all agree unanimously: "This device is sweet!"

Um...How can you state that all Palm users love this device while they all bashed the Casio E125? The Palm user base is extremely large. The very same web sites that you're referring to as lauding this device have had a large percentage of posts complaining about various aspects of it.

This is a true Palm geek's device. Let's break down what that means:

1) First, it's for people who prefer the Palm OS over the PPC OS. Why? Any number of reasons. Maybe they hate MS, the company. Maybe they have a lot of money invested in Palm software (or just realize that there's a lot more Palm software - and freeware - to be had). Or, imagine this, maybe some of them have actually tried the PPC OS and found it lacking for PIM, usability, or any number of other things.
2) Second, it's a geek's device. Many Palm users have blasted this device for being too big, too heavy, and for having horrific battery life. Others have criticized it for other reasons. It is naive to suggest that "all the Palm users love this thing." But, from a geek perspective, it's quite impressive. Super geek's don't care about size, weight, and battery life (at least not enough to keep them from purchasing one). That's why the original PPC was able to develop a decent foothold in the market. All of the original PPCs had poor (by today's standards) battery life and were fairly bulky to boot (the smallest/lightest device - the iPaq - had no built-in expansion at all - can you imagine such a PPC device hitting the market now?). Ultra geeks will snap on dual PCMCIA sleeves and get 1/2 hour of wireless surfing in before they go in for a recharge. But they prefer living with this burden rather than ever dream of using a B&W Palm device. This new Sony appeals to the ultra geek. Poor battery life, size, and weight are small factors to this market. More important is the gorgeous 320x480 screen, the hope of OS5 running Palm apps at high-speed (we'll have to wait and see), the thumbboard (surprisingly usable, BTW), and built-in video camera.

I, personally, can find all sorts of things wrong with this device (and the upcoming Palm Tungsten T). There is no perfect device for me out there. Several different devices have several different features that I like (and dislike). However, I can't argue with the diversity of the Palm camp. You can get a $99 B&W model that won't need new batteries for a couple months, or you can get a geeked-out Sony NX70V. Meanwhile, every new PPC device coming out looks almost the same. Can any of them think outside the box? Just once I'd like to see a new PPC come out with the joypad on the left and buttons on the right. Or, how about a model with a twistable screen and built-in thumbboard (like the Sony)? They all look the same to me. And they'll all look pretty much the same to most consumers come Xmas. Can our market really sustain so many PPC makers making so many similar devices?

Scott

Ed Hansberry

10-03-2002, 09:00 PM

Ed, I just spoke with all of the Palm users and we all agree unanimously: "This device is sweet!"
I knew it! You have a secret handshake too don't you? :wink: :lol:

Um...How can you state that all Palm users love this device while they all bashed the Casio E125?
I didn't say "all" in my original post did I? BUt thanks for slanting your post to make it appear as if I did. If you see where I did, lemme know because i do need to correct that.

Scott R

10-03-2002, 09:04 PM

I didn't say "all" in my original post did I? BUt thanks for slanting your post to make it appear as if I did. If you see where I did, lemme know because i do need to correct that.

How else is this statement supposed to be taken...

But how many times have I heard "Who needs all of that? It must be small and able to fit in my pocket. I don't need all that excess!" Now Sony has a device with that "excess" and it is the greatest thing since sliced bread from those same sites and people that have blasted anything Pocket PC because it wasn't Palm V sized.

OK, so I know what the sites are. Who are the specific people you're referring to?

Scott

Ed Hansberry

10-03-2002, 09:30 PM

Scott R

10-03-2002, 10:12 PM

You'll see Zen, bloat, poor battery life, bulky, "brick" and any number of other comments thrown out there. As one example, look at this reply to a typical "Mike F From PEAT" post (http://forums.pdabuzz.net/showthread.php?s=37f322c7d0ded7d425dc2da5867c82ef&postid=79081&highlight=tape+recorder#post79081). That is but one tiny example in a 12 page 170+ post thread.

I'll go through the list again.
Things you can find examples of people saying "we don't need that on a PDA, I only want PIM." - a concept that baffles me.

And to clarify - I NEVER said "all." You did.

But that's exactly what you are doing. I'd argue that many of the same people who made those comments about "not needing those things" back then, would make (and are making) the same comments today. As I said, the overall Palm community disagrees about many things. There are some folks who want the geek-power with the Palm OS, while others want something cheap, reliable, without all the gee-whiz features, which meets their needs. If you're seeing more people who like these advanced features nowadays, it's because even the Palm sites have been overrun by a larger number of younger people who don't mind charging the latest gadget on their credit cards. The folks who were on the "cutting edge" several years ago with the original Palm Pilots and loved the simplicity of it for PIM, are off being productive with their lives and/or have been drowned out by the newer, geekier kids on the forums.

Now, are there some people who said that they didn't need those features back then and are now going gaga over the latest, more advanced Palm OS devices? Sure. But, I'd divide that group largely into three groups:
1) Those that have a need to defend whatever device they happen to own.
2) Those that were simply mistaken back then (didn't see a need for the features back then but now do).
3) Those that said something like what you're quoting, though their actual words were slightly (but importantly) different (IOW, you're misquoting them).

Scott

DrtyBlvd

10-03-2002, 11:36 PM

Gee Heov, you really killed THAT topic :roll:

They did??

I'm still laughing actually! :lol: and I'm on the fourth page!

Timothy Rapson

10-04-2002, 12:46 AM

Ed, I just spoke with all of the Palm users and we all agree unanimously: "This device is sweet!"
This is a true Palm geek's device. Let's break down what that means:

Scott

All extremely well said Scott. I have been all over the Palm sites and the number one thing I have read is that the NX is the least innovative Clie since their first one, and that one bombed.

This is not the model to compare to the mainstream PPC, the T series is. And the T series will soon get the OS5 treatment and then you can compare it to the e310, Dell, ViewSonic, and Ipaq 2200. This model has a camera, half VGA screen and keyboard. If you want to compare it to a PPC, look at the camera model with the $150 WiFi card in for $750 list. Compare it to a Toshiba e740 with a $100 CF camera added for $700 list and the NX is about even. You get a transflective screen at twice the resollution with the NX. The Toshiba gives you access to cheap CF storage and 64 meg. But, it is the built-in camera that is what is making reviewers gaga and for good reason. It is cool.

Compare this to an Ipaq 3970 with a sleeve and add the camera and it is $850 and wouldn't fit in any pocket.

But, none of the PPCs has a built-in camera, keyboard, half VGA and swivel self-protecting screen. So, comparisons are not too worthwhile.

So,the biggest thing Ed is missing here is that this is not a mainstream model as the Casio 125 was. This is a specialty hi-end video model.

The model that will compare to the market slot of the "Casios" of today is the upcoming T690 (or whatever it is called.) It will hopefully have the half-VGA, and other goodies and be smaller and lighter than any PPC again. With Sony quality and style. I admit that the competition from the PPC camp will be very fierce in that range. but I expect the T series will be up to the challenge.

I personally think the Palm III set the top end of the size spectrum and while the NX is taller and seems thicker (it is actually just the hump. If you put the NX, the Palm III and that Casio in plastic bags and use water displacement to size them the NX would be far smaller than the bare measurement imply. Much closer to the Palm III than the Casio.) it is really about the size of that PalmIII. I don't have the engineering skill to make the measurements, but just looking at the NX and knowing how much better the NR fits in my pocket than a E125 did when I tried it, I am certain that the E125 was just too big and the N series is not. Close to too big but just under the limit. The sizes people will buy have been pretty well set. The Palm III size for high-end dual slot models, the Palm VX size for small single slot models.

But, no one I have read is saying the NX60 is a particularly good buy or a breakthrough model. It is the camera. And all here can bash the camera's low resollution all they want. I love it anyway. I wouldn't get another PDA for myself without one regardless of the resollution. It is so handy. I post my shots on the web or show them to friends in ways I never would if I had to have a separate camera with me all the time. It is the most useful half inch of height ever added to a PDA. And now there is video too. Not just for the NX, but for the current NR70V!

If you want to see something amazing check this out:

http://hem.passagen.se/pmr/teaser/index.html

These guys and another guy at EJ's Full Screen Utilities are doing video capture on the current model NR70V at 20-30 frames per second! With a 66 MZ Dragonball VX. Imagine what will come with the 200 MZ ARM.

And Ed,

50% of me wants to scream that this is the dumbest thread you ever started.

The other 50% finds all the post in this thread fascinating and wonderful.

Timothy Rapson

10-04-2002, 01:13 AM

How else is this statement supposed to be taken...

But how many times have I heard "Who needs all of that? It must be small and able to fit in my pocket. I don't need all that excess!" Now Sony has a device with that "excess" and it is the greatest thing since sliced bread from those same sites and people that have blasted anything Pocket PC because it wasn't Palm V sized.

OK, so I know what the sites are. Who are the specific people you're referring to?

Oh come on Scott! :roll: Go to PDAbuzz and read any thread during 2000 or 2001 that erupted into a flame war. You'll see Zen, bloat, poor battery life, bulky, "brick" and any number of other comments thrown out there. As one example, look at this reply to a typical "Mike F From PEAT" post (http://forums.pdabuzz.net/showthread.php?s=37f322c7d0ded7d425dc2da5867c82ef&postid=79081&highlight=tape+recorder#post79081). That is but one tiny example in a 12 page 170+ post thread.

I'll go through the list again.
Things you can find examples of people saying "we don't need that on a PDA, I only want PIM." - a concept that baffles me. I want VR on my PDA. The hardware isn't ready yet, but I want that power!
&#8226; Color
&#8226; Voice recording
&#8226; MP3
&#8226; Excel documents
&#8226; Word documents
&#8226; email attachments
&#8226; web browsing
&#8226; More than 2MB/4MB/8MB/16MB of RAM, from 1997, 1998, 1999, 2001 respectively.
&#8226; External storage cards
&#8226; rich audio
&#8226; video

I don't remember where it was, but I got into an argument from one user that couldn't for the life if himself understand why I would want to assign multiple categories to an PIM item. IT was totally insane to him that I would desire and use that funcitonality and the fact that the device supported it meant something was wrong. The search engines on PDABuzz are too weak to hone it down without knowing exact words used in the post and I am not sure it was there anyway. Could have been in one of the NNTP groups - in fact I think it was becasue it was before I got an iPAQ and that was before I joined Buzz.

And to clarify - I NEVER said "all." You did.

This huge long statement you make here just proves Scott's point. Whether you said "all" or not is not the least significant. Just the fact that you thought enough about those who didn't like the Casio to start this thread accuses anyone who ever made such a statement of contradicting themselves. The whole basis of the thread is accusatory. The way you started the thread, seems to me to malign...OK mildly provoke ....chide? ...even those standing around neutral on the sidelines. I was not even a Palm owner when the E125 came out, but I would probably be taken as one of those who did not bow down and praise the E125. If I had to place myself in one camp or the other, I would probably have to place myself in the camp this thread's "challenge" is aimed at. I almost bought an E125, but with the camera it would have been what $750? And it would never have fit in my pocket. The fact that the gorgeous screen of the Casio could not be viewed outside also kept me from buying one. It is the whole package of the NR, that finaly got my money and this NX is just as good and better.

Another thing you are missing here is that the Palm still does offer models that are cheaper and do not offer any of the complexity, expense, and low battery life that the PPC and NX do. The PPC does not offer any model with the spare functionality. Those who complained that they were not going to buy the Casio can still not buy this NX. They can get a T or even a $150 mono Clie. So, they don't need to say that they would get an NX if only it weren't so big. They can get another Clie. But at no time could someone get a simple $150 PPC.

heov

10-04-2002, 02:20 AM

Prices, some seem to be confused on this...

NX70V (w/camera): List $599

NX60 (w/o camera): List $499

Scott R

10-04-2002, 02:33 AM

FWIW, the E125 was one of the more compelling PPC's back when I was first thinking of getting one. I loved the gorgeous screen, the layout of the joypad, the built-in CF slot, and the overall slight size advantage compared to the iPaq (when you factored in the bulky sleeve). But in the end I bought an iPaq because it had the newer, faster processor, was an American company (not a patriotism issue - a support issue) and, most importantly, had a flash ROM. This, combined with Compaq's professional handling of the Palm-sized PC to PPC upgrade of their older models, Casio's comparitively poor upgrade plan and lack of built-in upgradability of the E125, and my strong belief that MS would, indeed, be upgrading the PPC OS at some point, pushed me in the direction of the iPaq.

In the end, however, I ended up switching back to the Palm OS for reasons which neither Casior nor Compaq could remedy: I simply did not like the PPC OS. There are far too many quirks about the way things function (I'm anal-retentive about usability issues). As I said before, the perfect device doesn't exist for me yet, but I keep waiting (and sometimes buying/trying various ones).

Scott

mookie123

10-04-2002, 02:58 AM

Another thing you are missing here is that the Palm still does offer models that are cheaper and do not offer any of the complexity, expense, and low battery life that the PPC and NX do. The PPC does not offer any model with the spare functionality. Those who complained that they were not going to buy the Casio can still not buy this NX. They can get a T or even a $150 mono Clie. So, they don't need to say that they would get an NX if only it weren't so big. They can get another Clie. But at no time could someone get a simple $150 PPC.

Is Palm OS product price scheme affecting PPC devices offering? sure, that is the reason now you have $299 devices from Viewsonic, Toshiba, and Dell. On the other hand, is Palm OS having trouble convincing people that their upper end offering is attractive? you bet. hence this thread about Sony.

the m5xx clearly cannot be sold at $499 anymore like the Vx. Neither that I am convinced the NX is worth $499-599 because of the features limitation that has been discussed at length.

will PPC ever come up with Sub $200 machine? I am willing to bet somewhere someone is working on that.

Can Palm OS compete in price segment that PPC models enter? So far Palm has been systematically retreating, from $499, $399, and I seriously doubt Palm can survive the $299 price war seeing the Tungsten offering compared to viewsonic/Toshiba. There is no indication at all that Palm can reverse their downward market share trend.

I still think the best value is price/performance. It has been like that in any electronic devices and it will continuely to be that. That is the reason without offering more feature, Palm models cannot hold up on price preassure on ther current upper end model. Palm hasn't stabilize the next generation OS, let alone finding the right hardware balance that can compete with PPC. meanwhile it seems OEM start to get a hang on making PPC PDA and start lowering price because of the leveling of learning curve

toshtoshtosh

10-04-2002, 03:26 AM

It is the most useful half inch of height ever added to a PDA.

I have never had a clie yet I must agree to the above quote. Building in a camera to a device which you have on you on a constant basis is an amazing idea. As long as the extra volume/weight does not inhibit you from carrying it with you in the first place.

I think the Clie is too big to carry around, but I can not wait until they start making small PPCs with built-in cameras, even if their quality isn't amazing.

In other words, I wish Sony would make PPCs :(.

Deslock

10-04-2002, 04:36 AM

I'm still laughing actually! :lol: and I'm on the fourth page!
Me too... Ed cracks me up. I used to come to PPCthoughts just for *boring* news and facts... thanks to his hilariously inane ramblings, now I come here when I need a laugh.

Scott R., I admire your patience, but trying to have a rational discussion with Ed is futile. Four pages of comments and he still doesn't understand why you can't compare two devices unless you consider all the features.

Ah, what the hell. I'll take a shot at it...

Ed, PalmOS5 ought to run well on a 200 MHz CPU and 16 MB RAM. And if you add some of the features you left out, does the NX look so horrible?

• plays MP4s
• has HVGA (480x230) screen with excellent crispness and color saturation
• dual slots (one is a proprietary CF slot, but it will supposedly be possible to write drivers to allow memory cards to work with it)
• thumb keyboard
• swivel design offers screen protection, tablet mode, or keyboard mode
• excellent ergonomics and control layout
• remote control

Now, I personally wouldn't want it (or the NX series) but if this had a Pocket PC OS, you wouldn't absolutely laugh it off of the planet. Get a grip. Anyway, the camera-equipped model what's realy interesting... VGA resolution (still image) is low, but it's decent for snap shots (which is all this camera is good for anyway) and MP4 recording is a nice plus.

On a side note, the upcoming next generation Sharp Zaurus looks pretty nifty. It's a mini-notebook with a VGA screen and keyboard (both in landscape) that also swivels into tablet mode. Much like the HPCs, except it looks more usable (smaller, lighter, faster, dual slots, with more efficient OS). Here are some images:

http://www.mobilenews.ne.jp/news/2002/10/01/ceatec/01.jpg
http://www.mobilenews.ne.jp/news/2002/10/01/ceatec/02.jpg
http://www.mobilenews.ne.jp/news/2002/10/01/ceatec/03.jpg
http://www.mobilenews.ne.jp/news/2002/10/01/ceatec/04.jpg
http://www.mobilenews.ne.jp/news/2002/10/01/ceatec/05.jpg
http://www.mobilenews.ne.jp/news/2002/10/01/ceatec/06.jpg

And a story on it:

http://world.altavista.com/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mobilenews.ne.jp%2Fnews%2F2002%2F10%2F01%2Fceatec%2F01sharp.html&lp=ja_en&tt=url

Sslixtis

10-04-2002, 05:19 AM

All I have to say is when Sony makes a PPC I'll buy one, until then I'm glad they are pushing the Palm OS towards that bloated, over-developed, geeky, media rich PPC end of the market. Hey by the time they reach Palm OS X I might even be ready to try one myself!

Somebody has to keep pushing MS to come up with new features! And it doesn't hurt to put a little price/design pressure on PPC OEMs either :wink: Thanks all you loyal Palm fanatics, keep up the good work.

jeff

10-04-2002, 05:38 AM

Rob Alexander

10-04-2002, 05:51 AM

It's amazing how much is being written, yet how little communication is happening.

Four pages of comments and he still doesn't understand why you can't compare two devices unless you consider all the features.

Palm Guys:

You're still missing the point. :P Ed wasn't comparing two devices, so it doesn't matter what the best way is to do that. He was expressing frustration at having had to defend the size, weight and battery life of PPCs for some years and now finds a lot of support in the Palm world for a Palm device that's about the same in size, weight and battery life as the devices he used to defend.

Things you can find examples of people saying "we don't need that on a PDA, I only want PIM." - a concept that baffles me.

Ed:

It does feel hypocritical after all the crap we've listened to over the years, and it's satisfying to say "see, now you're willing to make the tradeoffs you criticized us for", 8) but there's really no point.

Palm users aren't some single group mind, like a Borg collective, that all share the same opinions. Sure some Palm users used to hassle us over that, but they may not be (probably aren't) the same Palm users who are praising the Sony now. There doesn' t have to be any hypocrisy here because you're reading the opinions now of different people than the ones who you debated before. As Scott R said, there's plenty of debate in the Palm community over this and plenty of Palm users who don't like the Sony. The Palm zeolots who didn't like your Casio for its size and weight may well be the same ones criticizing the Sony's size and weight now.

If you go out to those groups and find an individual who's changed their mind, then it may be worth indulging yourself in a little "I told you so", but other than for the entertainment value (of a flamefest), or just to make yourself feel better about the years of abuse at the hands of Palm zeolots, there's no point in generalizing that the Palm community as a whole is somehow hypocritical because Sony made this device.

Scott R:

You seem to be one of the few in this thread that actually 'gets' what both sides are on about. Not that it does any good.... :wink:

mookie123

10-04-2002, 06:27 AM

...wow.......PPCthoughts attracts so many Palm users.....this is kinda amusing to some degree.

I swear deep down they think there is something going on with PPC and m515 are just so hopelessly outdated. :D

So NX is not too big, the battery is excellent and it's the ultimate multimedia machine eh? mmm.......

I have a nice stone bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell. anybody interested?

Steven Cedrone

10-04-2002, 07:53 AM

Even if you were to "drop" the e125 comparison from this debate you still wind up with this fact: the NX60 specs closely resemble those of a Pocket PC device manufactured years ago.

Not that I want to continue this "Us" vs. "Them" debate but...

I do remember when Palm said: who needs color...
I do remember when Palm said: who needs PC functionality in a PIM...

And after the Pocket PC launch, I also remember saying to myself: I can't wait any longer for Palm to do what is available now in the Pocket PC. That is when I switched over...

Alot of people are betting that Palm can do great things with their next TWO major releases of the Palm OS. I think they will wind up with a device that is basically the same as the Pocket PC, only years behind in development...

Steve

klinux

10-04-2002, 09:34 AM

klinux, while you can overclock Casio devices to 180 or 200Mhz, the difference between MIPS and ARM processors goes far beyond that. MIPS is simply less efficient processor, and it's FPU unit is really slow compared to that of ARM. I had my Casio O/Ced to 200 MHz (it's 180 now) and it still couldn't play video, and run emulators nearly as fast as 200Mhz Ipaq could.

Indeed, and having owned both, I would concur with you. Nevertheless, you have missed the point of my post which is to say even in the area of pure speed, the performance gap of the new Clie versus a two year old device is smaller than what the spec would suggest.

With that said, I hope Toshiba, which I believe to be the best and the most innovative PPC manufacturer to date will rise up to this challenge to come up with even more interesting designs .

Talldog

10-04-2002, 11:31 AM

There's nothing new here. Back when PPC had color and PalmOS didn't, they claimed nobody needed color. Then the IIIc and Prism came out, and suddenly the Palm crowd thought color was cool. Same scenario with multimedia.

Then this baby comes out, and now they don't want to hear about big, heavy, power-hungry, and expensive any more. Those were liabilities before (never mind the additional functionality), but now they're benefits (I mean c'mon, look at all that additional functionality).

Deslock

10-04-2002, 12:04 PM

This is all a non-issue. There have always been Palm users who want color, high resolution, and multimedia. There have always been Palm users who prefer battery life and small form-factor. The new Sony has supporters and detractors in the Palm community.

I'm not sure why you're refuting my post, since you seem to support my point. As you wrote, "The Palm zeolots who didn't like your Casio for its size and weight may well be the same ones criticizing the Sony's size and weight now." Even more Palm zeolots would be criticing the Sony if it only had the specs Ed posted (if Ed's post was accurate, it *would* be laughed off the planet, as he suggested).

But it doesn't only have those features... The fact that Ed had to ignore other key features to make a point (which I did not miss) was hypocritical and illustrates how silly this is. He didn't even mention the high resolution of the Sony! (QVGA was one of most cited features used to justify the extra size/weight when PPCs first came out) Often when exaggerations are used in a debate, it's an indication that there's no substance to the argument being supported.

Also, I am not a Palm guy. I like handhelds in general and have used ones running PPC, PalmOS, DOS, EPOC, and Linux.

It's amazing how much is being written, yet how little communication is happening.

Four pages of comments and he still doesn't understand why you can't compare two devices unless you consider all the features.

Palm Guys:

You're still missing the point. :P Ed wasn't comparing two devices, so it doesn't matter what the best way is to do that. He was expressing frustration at having had to defend the size, weight and battery life of PPCs for some years and now finds a lot of support in the Palm world for a Palm device that's about the same in size, weight and battery life as the devices he used to defend.

Things you can find examples of people saying "we don't need that on a PDA, I only want PIM." - a concept that baffles me.

Ed:

It does feel hypocritical after all the crap we've listened to over the years, and it's satisfying to say "see, now you're willing to make the tradeoffs you criticized us for", 8) but there's really no point.

Palm users aren't some single group mind, like a Borg collective, that all share the same opinions. Sure some Palm users used to hassle us over that, but they may not be (probably aren't) the same Palm users who are praising the Sony now. There doesn' t have to be any hypocrisy here because you're reading the opinions now of different people than the ones who you debated before. As Scott R said, there's plenty of debate in the Palm community over this and plenty of Palm users who don't like the Sony. The Palm zeolots who didn't like your Casio for its size and weight may well be the same ones criticizing the Sony's size and weight now.

If you go out to those groups and find an individual who's changed their mind, then it may be worth indulging yourself in a little "I told you so", but other than for the entertainment value (of a flamefest), or just to make yourself feel better about the years of abuse at the hands of Palm zeolots, there's no point in generalizing that the Palm community as a whole is somehow hypocritical because Sony made this device.

Scott R:

You seem to be one of the few in this thread that actually 'gets' what both sides are on about. Not that it does any good.... :wink:

Timothy Rapson

10-04-2002, 01:21 PM

Is Palm OS product price scheme affecting PPC devices offering? sure, that is the reason now you have $299 devices from Viewsonic, Toshiba, and Dell. On the other hand, is Palm OS having trouble convincing people that their upper end offering is attractive? you bet. hence this thread about Sony.

the m5xx clearly cannot be sold at $499 anymore like the Vx. Neither that I am convinced the NX is worth $499-599 because of the features limitation that has been discussed at length.

will PPC ever come up with Sub $200 machine? I am willing to bet somewhere someone is working on that.

Can Palm OS compete in price segment that PPC models enter? So far Palm has been systematically retreating, from $499, $399, and I seriously doubt Palm can survive the $299 price war seeing the Tungsten offering compared to viewsonic/Toshiba. There is no indication at all that Palm can reverse their downward market share trend.

I still think the best value is price/performance. It has been like that in any electronic devices and it will continuely to be that. That is the reason without offering more feature, Palm models cannot hold up on price preassure on ther current upper end model. Palm hasn't stabilize the next generation OS, let alone finding the right hardware balance that can compete with PPC. meanwhile it seems OEM start to get a hang on making PPC PDA and start lowering price because of the leveling of learning curve

I agree. As I said in another thread here, Palm appears to have little to offer and nothing new announced at the $300 level. They could sell the M515 for $250 and probably offer the Tungsten for $300 right now if they really wanted to. But the $300 range is going to be a bloodbath for makers this Christmas.

A sub-$200 PPC. I suppose they will get one someday and Microsoft will say they planned it all along :robot: (You WILL be assimilated!)

I hope Palm and Linux PDAs survive. I really like my Clie and the half VGA screen that Microsoft did not allow on current PPCs. So far, Sony has done very well selling near (the N600-700 series) or at (the NR70s) the price level of PPCs. They manage their inventory so well that once the models are discontinued they have so few left that you never see them for ridiculous prices like the $60 I paid for my Mono Ipaq. We'll see how the new ones sell this Fall.

spursdude

10-04-2002, 02:34 PM

mookie123

10-04-2002, 04:01 PM

I agree. As I said in another thread here, Palm appears to have little to offer and nothing new announced at the $300 level. They could sell the M515 for $250 and probably offer the Tungsten for $300 right now if they really wanted to. But the $300 range is going to be a bloodbath for makers this Christmas.
....
A sub-$200 PPC. I suppose they will get one someday and Microsoft will say they planned it all along :robot: (You WILL be assimilated!)

in a bloodbath price war, Palm has the least blood to lose before going bust. I'll put my money on Microsoft rebate program, the giant computer conglomerate pocket like Toshiba/HP, or insanely efficient taiwanese manufacturing base like Acer and viewsonic.

speaking of assimilation, you do realize that Palm devices use the least standard slots and not able to boot another OS do you? (and spare Sony from this misery)

ajcross

10-04-2002, 04:44 PM

First, I am PDA shopping mode for my Xmas upgrade.

On speed of the OS, Palm has had less runtime overhead and runs programs in-place for an instant-on experience. Palm has matured several applications. I am disappointed that the new Palm devices don't have at least 32MB for applications to grow.

PPC does lots of memory swapping and needs memory management utilities for programs in the background. Also, I still hear PPC needs a recharge and a reset, daily - not worry free or stable. The applications and games are more hi-res than current PalmOS offerings.

I am waiting for the reviews of people using the new Palms, Sonys, Toshibas and iPaqs that are coming. I need to be sold on the best experience for my lifestyle.

Another other item for the NX70V to E-125 comparison fire, it has a magnesium casing. Actual metal, not plastic, adds weight but provides protection that eliminates the need for a case.

mookie123

10-04-2002, 05:40 PM

On speed of the OS, Palm has had less runtime overhead and runs programs in-place for an instant-on experience.

You mean PPC is not 'instant-on'? even if you mean loading time, do you even know the differences in microseconds? have you ever load a large spreadsheet into m515? 'run-time' overhead? is that like the famous PACE?

PPC does lots of memory swapping and needs memory management utilities for programs in the background.

huh?

Also, I still hear PPC needs a recharge and a reset, daily - not worry free or stable.

no PPC requires annual virgin sacrifice and daily animal sacrifice in order to run. But for best result of course an authentic shrunken head mummy attached to the SD slot.

I am waiting for the reviews of people using the new Palms, Sonys, Toshibas and iPaqs that are coming. I need to be sold on the best experience for my lifestyle.

Another other item for the NX70V to E-125 comparison fire, it has a magnesium casing. Actual metal, not plastic, adds weight but provides protection that eliminates the need for a case.

we are glad to know the depth of your technical spec priorities and requirements. Do you know Palm has cute shiny logo? I heard it makes the machine run faster and create localize gravitational disturbance that makes the screen display more colors. And don't forget that the Shiny magnesium case actually reflect electromagnetic spectrum more hence protecting the battery form sun partical radiation.

:roll:

PS. can't help being sarcastic. It's my official cranky Friday, and you are the lucky winner. But seriously, have you actually determined your minimum needs and have a hands on try in electronic store near you? gaaw...