Should we sign a CDA with HP?

[Jason Dunn]

I received an email from HP late last week, with an interesting offer: they're willing to send me spec sheets on new iPAQs two weeks before they're released, arrange for review units to be sent out prior to release, and have increased communication with me as a leader in the Pocket PC community (and the rest of the Thoughts team by extension). Sounds great right? It sure is - but there's a high price to pay, and this is what I need your input on.<br /><br />HP has asked me to sign a confidentiality agreement, which is fairly standard. But they've also stated that if I sign this CDA, I cannot post links to any sort of information that would violate my CDA. So let's say for example that I was in possession of an unreleased iPAQ, and someone sent me a link to another site that had photos. Legally, neither I nor my team would be able to post a link to that site with the leaked photos.<br /><br />So the question is, which would you rather have as a reader of this site? Accurate information when we're allowed to talk about it, or links to rumours right when we hear about them? Please chime in and give me your input - I'm eager to hear what you think on the subject, and cast your vote!

[Jeff Rutledge]

Personally, I'm all for the rumours. That's what these sites are all about (for me, anyways).

My take on it: If you signed the Confidentiality Agreement, you'd never get a "scoop" (at least with HP products). Worse, if you did have one, you couldn't post it. That means you'd have to make news announcements when HP says it's OK in which case you'd be just one of many sites making that announcement.

Personally, I say let the developers and enterprise partners get the sneak peaks. Thoughts is a place for the community at large, and we like to hear the latest and greatest (confirmed or not).

My 'Thoughts', anyways. :)

[Gaiwan]

Hmm, this is definitely a very tough call. There's just something about legal agreements that irks me, anytime you have to sign something like that theres always that fine print that can end up causing alot of problems in the future when you least expect it.

I just recently joined this wonderful pocketpc community and I have very much been enjoying it. The community and true enthusiast feel is what really attracted me to it. The freedom to express your Pocket PC Thoughts in an uncensored manner is what makes this the community it is. As soon as you bring restrictions upon that is when it starts feeling less like a community and more like just every other pocket pc site out there.

It's not a matter of getting accurate information, its just a matter of being able to freely post about whatever you want to whenever you feel like it.[/i]

[Paul P]

I think there will be leaks from HP one way or another (probably from the same sources who will sign the agreement with HP). So as a reader, I would prefer to have you guys continue supplying the links. However, from your vantage point, establishing this kind of relationship with HP is definitely a good thing, and may be more beneficial in the long-run to the people reading PPCT.

[Wes Salmon]

I've had my fair share of dealings with NDA's and rumors/leaked info and my take is this:

Once something is published somewhere else (newsgroups, website, whatever), it's "in the wild", making it fair game to reference even if you're under NDA. This happened a number of times to me and when I explained to the PR/Legal teams that if I was forced to ignore everything else going on in the market/industry/community, even things where someone other than me broke an NDA or an agreement, it put me at a disadvantage, one that I was not willing to be at. If they wanted detailed, *accurate* coverage at launch, this was a concession they needed to make.

Every time, the companies agreed that if something became public by no fault of my own, I could acknowledge it, but I could not confirm, deny, or elaborate on it. Seemed fair to me and kept a nice balance between posting rumors and leaked information, and getting detailed info and products before release so once they became public, we had the full story to offer our users.

Remember, ultimately it is YOU that is providing a service to THEM by covering their product releases, not the other way around. Use this to your advantage when negotiating an NDA. :)

[klinux]

Agreed. Furthermore. the leaker, if you will, could just post the information himself or herself in the forum, no?

[Duncan]

Don't do it! The leaks and info will come anyway and you will have the luxury of being first. OK some of them will be wrong, but being wrong on some info is as much part of the fun as getting big scoops...!

It sounds like HP would like a controlling interest in one of the biggest Pocket PC News sources on the 'net. Probably a sign that you've been hitting closer to home than they are comfortable with!

[Julio]

Personally, accurate information would be better.

The main reason I keep coming back to read Pocket PC Thoughts is for the amazing amount of accurate information that I find here. I find out about new technologies, good deals, and future pocket pc trends.

Rumors can be titilating sometimes :P - but usually I ignore them anyway because there is enough contradiction that it becomes too confusing.

-Julio

[mookie123]

Gimme a break, 2 weeks? They call that a deal?

The internet will know what screw size the next ipaq will use within two weeks before it launches, let alone "general review"

Don't we already know the rough spec what the next iPAQ will be? All we are waiting now is some leak picture, and I got the feeling it will emerge soon. Since when do 'news embargo' ever stop the internet from knowing any juicy gadget leak? I think the HP offers is just to stop PPCthoughts from linking any rumor/leak pictures. Two weeks advance peek for news editor doens't mean jack for net publication. For news print magazine maybe, but not internet blogger site.

Also, the new HP seems to pick up new lawyering habit (suing tru64 security hole anybody?)

I'll say give them the finger and teach them about the importance of fan site getting an early review as marketing tool. They SHOULD smooch PPCthoughts, not forcing a leash with lame 2 weeks dingle peek worth a penny.

PS. accurate information that cannot be told to the public is same as "no information" to the public.

[24va]

Do you get to keep the hardware?

[Wes Salmon]

Oh, one more thing about what I said above ... if you can work a deal to play both sides, it only helps BOTH parties since if a totally false rumor is making its way around, you'll know better than to cover it since it's bogus. This means the company you have an agreement with was done a favor by you since you didn't propagate inaccurate information.

It was for this reason many times in the past that I didn't run stories about leaks and rumors that I knew were inaccurate. I'd get blasted for not being "on top" of the news, yet when the rumor was proved false, people realized I was more "on top" than they thought.

[brntcrsp]

Jason, you once mentioned long ago that you thought the PR types were missing a great source of review from the community sites, similar to this one. I guess the question is, now that you have been offered to show how valuable a site like this can be, is it better to continue with speculation, or solid facts?

[Charles Pickrell]

Just counter offer with a revision page to the NDA that states that you with to 'strike' sentences x, x, and x in paragraph x. This way you can offer to agree to the parts that jive for you. If they don't like that, then don't sign.

Charles

[Sslixtis]

Sounds to me like they are offering you a carrot (Advanced news and PPCs) now so they can hit you with a stick (NDA and legally binding contract) later. It's like the Government telling the press "WE will give you all the accurate information you could want on any story, but, WE will decide when you can use it." Scary. I prefer NEWS not PR releases. :wink:

[pt]

questions:

1. how long would the nda / cda be active?

2. 2 weeks? that's silly. 2 months and it would be a bigger deal and make more sense.

3. if i posted stuff here, or someone else did, would you be forced to remove it off your boards?

cheers,
pt

[topps]

Oh, one more thing about what I said above ... if you can work a deal to play both sides, it only helps BOTH parties


I like Wes' take on the options, in both his posts -- seems like a reasonable compromise to me, and should be for them.

And what about leaks posted by your contributors like Marlof, Ed and the gang - are they locked down to? That would seem unreasonable.

[kaiden.1]

NOPE! Don't do it......... Absolutely not! This is one place on the net that truely is OPEN! I really like that!

AND.....Thanks for asking all of us about it first instead of just going through with it! It makes us feel like part of the group. :D

[Jason Dunn]

1. how long would the nda / cda be active?
2. 2 weeks? that's silly. 2 months and it would be a bigger deal and make more sense.
3. if i posted stuff here, or someone else did, would you be forced to remove it off your boards?


1) It would be "permanent", not linked to any one product
2) Yeah, two weeks isn't a super long time, but it's enough time to prepare something
3) I would most certainly not agree to that

[Jason Dunn]

And what about leaks posted by your contributors like Marlof, Ed and the gang - are they locked down to? That would seem unreasonable.

Yes, it would not only affect ME but the SITE and the people who contribute to it. Not people in the general forum, but all my front-page posters. Which is why I'd have to have my whole team under the CDA, so we all knew what we couldn't post, vs. having me police every post they make. :?

[pt]

1) It would be "permanent", not linked to any one product

two words.

deal breaker.

a per-product nda / cda sounds more reasonable.

cheers,
pt

[Inaki C]

Jason,
I have some experience with that kind of agreement, and specifically with HP. They will send you information and perhaps early versions or machine prototypes. However you will be tied to these conditions so tightly that most things you learn will not have any interest for you.
These kind of agreements are interesting for developers to get an early contact with new products but I am afraid in your case it would be an obstacle to early announcement of new products or even to discuss rumors.

In my experience HP is one of the hardest players I have seen on this matter.
By the way, they will watch you closely. I had an unfortunate experience after giving an insignificant comment of a HP product in a forum.

Mi advice, do not sign anything.

[Brad Adrian]

a per-product nda / cda sounds more reasonable.

Actually, if we DID decide to go with this, I really like your idea, pt. With today's ability to communicate quickly, it would be no problem getting, approving and returning an NDA on a per-item basis. That eliminates some of the issues with an all-encompassing, detail-thin agreement.

I'm still torn on the whole issue, though. I think part of what a lot of you readers like about what Jason does is the fact that you "hear it here first." Am I right?

[entropy1980]

Don't do it as others have stated your likely to get more info without it and what fun is having info if you can't talk abouty it? On the day it's released we will have a million takes on it anyway all over the net so if anything you may be able to break the scoop sooner rather than later by not signing it.

[Paragon]

Well Jason, who brought you to the dance?

How many detailed hardware reviews has the 'Thoughts' team done to date? Are hardware reviews what makes this site?

What will you gain by not being able to say anything until everyone else can?

Look at the personalities of your team, and of your members. There is a lot of good information passed around this site that would not be done if you were under NDAs.

This is a decision that goes to the fibre of this site. Do you like the look and feel of the site now? Do you want to change to look and feel by having to withhold info that up til now you have made a name for yourself, and your site by speculating and digging for info to share before everyone else has permission to report.

This is just my personal observation, but I don't think Pocket PC Thoughts is an NDA kinda place.

Good Luck, whatever you decide.

Dave

[entropy1980]

Well Jason, who brought you to the dance?

How many detailed hardware reviews has the 'Thoughts' team done to date? Are hardware reviews what makes this site?

What will you gain by not being able to say anything until everyone else can?

Look at the personalities of your team, and of your members. There is a lot of good information passed around this site that would not be done if you were under NDAs.

This is a decision that goes to the fibre of this site. Do you like the look and feel of the site now? Do you want to change to look and feel by having to withhold info that up til now you have made a name for yourself, and your site by speculating and digging for info to share before everyone else has permission to report.

This is just my personal observation, but I don't think Pocket PC Thoughts is an NDA kinda place.

Good Luck, whatever you decide.

Dave

good point dave!

[Paragon]

Thanks, Jeremiah

Dave

[Foo Fighter]

I'd sign the agreement in a heartbeat. It would be the perfect way to get even with Ed and Jason.

I'll just sit here playing with the new iPaq while the rest of you bastards sweat in anticipation of photos and specs! :twisted: :P :twisted:

[pt]

Actually, if we DID decide to go with this, I really like your idea, pt. With today's ability to communicate quickly, it would be no problem getting, approving and returning an NDA on a per-item basis. That eliminates some of the issues with an all-encompassing, detail-thin agreement. I'm still torn on the whole issue, though. I think part of what a lot of you readers like about what Jason does is the fact that you "hear it here first." Am I right?

yes. per item is "win-win" you folks can even "pass" on products that you don't want to keep mum about.

you're right, many people come here for the "heard it here first" nature of the site.

per item or bust.

cheers,
pt

[BevHoward]

NDA assigns _control_ to the vendor, not the signator.

My vote would be NO and I do not believe that doing so fosters rumors any more than an NDA would... for example, if you saw a rumor that you knew to be untrue due to your NDA access, you would not be able to do anything about it without risking a "violation"

[Mr. Anonymous]

At first I started screaming 'No, no no!' at my screen when I read about the proposed CDA, but I have to wonder: would you only be prevented from posting or linking to information about a new HP product once they had sent you the information (and were therefore 2 weeks from its release)? In that case, most other new sources would have picked up on it first, you could link to them before the HP clock started.

I still think it's kinda shaky. Why would HP offer something like this? They must think they have a lot to loose if the market find out about new products far in advance of their release (like Palm experience when consumers passed on the Vx to wait for the 505).

[Wes Salmon]

1) It would be "permanent", not linked to any one product
2) Yeah, two weeks isn't a super long time, but it's enough time to prepare something
3) I would most certainly not agree to that

1) That's a show-stopper in my opinion. I've never been asked to sign a blanket NDA for a company unless I worked directly *for* that company. They are reaching way too far if they want this type of agreement with you.

2) Two weeks is on par with what most other online pubs get in regards to info and review devices. I've even gotten calls at 10pm the night before an 8am EST announcement was going out. If you ran a paper rag, you'd get stuff much earlier but they know your time to "press" is about half an hour instead of the 3-4 week lead time most magazines have. :)

3) Yeah, don't agree to anything that binds those who work/volunteer for you unless they get the same exact access to the products/info they are offering you and want such access.

Sounds like HP is extending an olive branch of sorts, but it appears to be attached to a giant ogre on the other end of it.

[curious]

I think part of what a lot of you readers like about what Jason does is the fact that you "hear it here first." Am I right?Speaking for myself: yes, hearing things first is part of the reason I come here. Also the incredible diversity of topics covered. (heh, sure ain't to post in the boards! ;) )

But the main reason I can't stay away from PPCT is that it's an opinion site. You guys not only deliver the news, you deliver your take on it. And that's interesting to read. I'd rather see your honest reaction to a device based on hands-on experience than just another rumor, even if the latter is available earlier.

('course, it would be great if you could use all the suggestions in this thread to tone down the agreement's strictest parts! From Wes' fluent and wise posts, it occurs to me that maybe you should get him to do the talkin' ;) )

[Jeff Rutledge]

But the main reason I can't stay away from PPCT is that it's an opinion site. You guys not only deliver the news, you deliver your take on it. And that's interesting to read. I'd rather see your honest reaction to a device based on hands-on experience than just another rumor, even if the latter is available earlier.


Excellent point curious!

[Paragon]

Two more points

First, I come here because it is cutting edge I can learn about, talk about, speculate about things before someone puts out a polished review on it.

Secondly, I know why you are thinking about this.... You think that this could make you one of those influencer guys.....don't get sucked in by the dark side Jason. Use the force! Resist the temptation! In the end you will just become another spit polished reviewer spewing the dribble printed on the side of the box......64mb RAM, 65k colors, fits nice in my hand. :D

Is that you?

Dave

[Ed Hansberry]

I've had my fair share of dealings with NDA's and rumors/leaked info and my take is this:
I agree with all of that. I've never had to deal with it but have talked to various people and they all said the same thing - once info is in the wild, you cannot sit by and ignore it.

My 2¢, once someting somewhere has been leaked, it is unfair for PPCT to suffer because we are getting a accurate picture of a device out at launch.

[greenmozart]

When I first started looking into getting a Pocket PC last fall, this site FAST became my default locale for information of all kinds. Part of the "enthusiast" aura is the excitement generated by the bleeding edge, complete with the bloody fingers and razor sharp rumors. Let's face it, so often we are disappointed by what IS that all we have left is what COULD BE. Besides, the BEST part of this site is its staff - all of you are well-informed and opinionated. The NDA would make HP the Gepetto to your Pinocchio. CUT THE STRINGS... YOU ARE ALL REAL BOYS!

It would be a waste of your talents to be forced into just reading us the contents of the box.

Now if HP offered to send all your loyal readers review hardware I might reconsider my argument. 8O

MO

[Willmonwah]

I must say that I agree with pt and Brian on the per-product cda's. If they did sign, the PPCT team would be able to decide if and when they think it's right to sign. But how would they decide? Just from reading an enourmous variety of content on the front page, I (personally) couldn't imagine deciding on a case by case basis, if and when to sign. I guess that's a part of the job description.

:idea: Here's an interesting take on the question. What if Jason and the rest of the PPCT team signed cda's with a whole bunch of companies, not only HP? Would that be what we want? Sorry to take it to that extreme.

Although the message boards give something to the soul of PPCT, I think it's the front page that keeps me coming back for more. It's a diverse mix of hand-picked news, opinion (and rumours), commentary, reviews, and so much other content that especially appeals to us readers while reflecting the personalities that make it happen. The flavor of the site is that of a community site.

I bet the folks at CNET and ZDNet have signed these things, and look how much better we are than they. All this considered, however, a permanent agreement with HP alone probably wouldn't necessarily be out of the question. Remember, it's not only the two weeks and hardware samples; I think it's more important that there's a substantial increase in communication.

HP has got to see that talking to you guys is more important than talking to the mainstream media. Unless they do or already have, we probably will be getting just as much, if not less, than say, David Berlind from ZDNet :wink: .


William

[JonnoB]

Could you really moderate users posting to the forums? Even if the admins of this site were under this agreement, users could post and continually post the rumors.... it would be hard for you guys to keep up cleaning the forums with references to the 'leaks.'

[TechMage]

I don't post here much, but I feel I need to say this. Uh Jason, this would be a very bad idea. Sure, you get cool prototype stuff, but what do we get? You don't make this site stay afloat, we the readers of pocketpcthoughts.com do. HP would not give a damn about you or your site if it wasn't for us. So please do not do this. This is a good site and I read it 3 to 7 times a week, and I would hate for it to be changed into a corporate servant.

[Paragon]

Could you really moderate users posting to the forums? Even if the admins of this site were under this agreement, users could post and continually post the rumors.... it would be hard for you guys to keep up cleaning the forums with references to the 'leaks.'

Jonathan

That really wouldn't be the problem. We the posters could post whatever we liked. The Thoughts team would not be responsible for what we post. Instead, the problem would be that they could not join in.

Look at Pocket PC Passion, Dale is under many NDAs yet we speculate with the best of them, and no one edits any of it....I would know :D
Dales contributions to the discussions are much different from what Jason's are, for the obvious reasons.

Dave

[JonnoB]

Look at Pocket PC Passion, Dale is under many NDAs yet we speculate with the best of them, and no one edits any of it....I would know :D
Dales contributions to the discussions are much different from what Jason's are, for the obvious reasons.

Dave

And as much as I like Dale and appreciate his contributions to the Pocket PC community overall, his lack of ability to add or detract from the rumor discussions... well.... just sucks eggs.

[Paragon]

And as much as I like Dale and appreciate his contributions to the Pocket PC community overall, his lack of ability to add or detract from the rumor discussions... well.... just sucks eggs.

And that is what NDAs do for you.

Dave

[GF]

Once you signed the NDA, the information in PPCT will be limited. You can see the update frequent of Brighthand and Pocketpcpassion. Before that they have a lot of information and almost have updated information everyday. But now, they will only provide the information after the product released.

I do believe it is a temptation to have a prototype of the unreleased device, but for us, it definitely lose a lot.

My 2 cents opinion.

Galen

[Bob Anderson]

What a tough choice...

I have to say, however, I would find much more value if PPCT decided to sign the NDA. Why?

Well, the rumors will exist whether you foster them or not. But what you do well is share your opinions.. and quite honestly, I don't want or need your opinion on rumors... I need opinions on actual products! If HP says they'll give you access, and you get that time to review, examine, document and prepare your posts telling us what you really think about a new product... then I'm all for the NDA.

Say what you will, but not all companies are out to "screw" everyone... They have vital business interests to protect - either play by their rules or not...

Jason -- rumor mills are never reliable -- saying no to HP so that you can keep them going seems silly. Sign the NDA and prepare to educate us all about the new, cool things that are on their way!

[Mr. Anonymous]

One more thing I want to add: kudos to you Jason and the rest of the staff for thinking about us, the readers, and asking our opinion on this matter. It's definately appreciated :)

[Wes Salmon]

Could you really moderate users posting to the forums? Even if the admins of this site were under this agreement, users could post and continually post the rumors.... it would be hard for you guys to keep up cleaning the forums with references to the 'leaks.'True, but it wouldn't take long for the legal eagles to start throwing around threats at Jason, his sponsors, hosting company, upstream providers, and whomever else they think they can intimidate to gain an upper hand.

Trust me, it happened to me on more than one occasion based on someone *else* breaking their NDA by posting stuff on my old site. My stance was if a user broke their NDA, it was between Company A and that user ... not myself. Unfortunately the "higher ups" were less worried about what was right and more worried about legal bills so I had to battle with them as well to keep the integrity of the forum.

[Kirk Stephens]

First off Jason, I think you should feel flattered that a huge corporation thinks you and your site are important enough to be offered this deal. However I think that perhaps HP had an ulterior motive when they thought up this scheme. Perhaps they see PPCThoughts as a threat. Your site has worldwide exposure to the most diehard Pocket PC users. Undoubtedly if you got your hands on information regarding a future product from HP, you would report on it. Maybe they just want you to think that they are being kind in giving you this "generous" offer when in fact is is just an attempt to cover their a$$. Who knows, maybe I am just being paranoid :shocked!:

Anyhow, I would not recommend you sign anything. There is way too much small print when dealing with things like this. It would be very easy for an "incident" to occur, like someone providing information regarding an HP product in the discussion forum or perhaps you or the gang inadvertantly giving a link to a site which happens to contain information. Also, I I think that much of your passion for Pocket PCs is derived from sharing what you know. So while it may be cool for you to receive an unreleased product, it may only be instant gratification and would be painful not to share what you know. And maybe I am looking into this issue too much as well.

Good Luck with your tough choice.

[Terry]

Jason, it might be fun for you and your team, but not for those of us that read PPCT. I've pretty much given up on Dale's site...it's too commercial and his postings show up days after it does here or on BH. I'd hate to see the same thing happen here. HP ought to send you the stuff a couple of weeks ahead of time so you can post your thoughts...not so you have to remain silent!

I can't imagine running a site like yours under an NDA or CDA!

[heliod]

Wes Salmon wrote:

Every time, the companies agreed that if something became public by no fault of my own, I could acknowledge it, but I could not confirm, deny, or elaborate on it. Seemed fair to me and kept a nice balance between posting rumors and leaked information, and getting detailed info and products before release so once they became public, we had the full story to offer our users.

I quite agree with Wes. Maybe you are able to negotiate with them that you will not start the rumours, but once they are started you can point to them without giving your own opinion. Would be a fair trade for having the inside information.

[Dave Conger]

My thoughts on this...HP needs to revise their agreement. PPC Thoughts is an icon in not only the PPC world but the whole PDA community. HP should recognize this and allow you to post any rumors and rumblings though no direct thoughts from you on the product until it is announced.

But that isn't what HP is willing to do at this point, so it just seems like the agreement is just a trade off...news/rumors or product/reviews...the question is what do you want your site to be? What content are you trying to provide to users? You subtitle is "news, views, rants, and raves"...is this agreement going to cause the goal of your site to change? And do you want that?

I am sure that you are already thinking about these things and any capable site owner would. The other PDA site owners that frequent your site (like me) understand this is a big decision, and though we envy you for having this opportunity, we also don’t as we know this wouldn’t be a simple decision to make

[bjornkeizers]

I'll take the rumors please. I'll let the.. shall we say.. dependant sites? [bjorn looks in the general direction of Brighthand] handle the "officïal" part; you guys just stick to being independant radicals.

[Kre]

Every time, the companies agreed that if something became public by no fault of my own, I could acknowledge it, but I could not confirm, deny, or elaborate on it. Seemed fair to me and kept a nice balance between posting rumors and leaked information, and getting detailed info and products before release so once they became public, we had the full story to offer our users.

Remember, ultimately it is YOU that is providing a service to THEM by covering their product releases, not the other way around. Use this to your advantage when negotiating an NDA. :)

I would agree with this. If you do indeed sign an NDA, they do need to understand that you are doing them a favor by providing this service. If this werent the case, then they never would have approached you in the first place.

Im interested in accurate information, but you need to maintain much more freedom than what theyre suggesting you would have with their initial offer.

Bottom line... youre running this site, so do what you think would be most beneficial for everyone in the long run. But make sure if you lock yourself into an NDA, that there is an escape clause and good balance between you and them in the agreement.

[Chris Pi]

It's fair to ask you not to comment on your review model but it stinks that they're asking you not to link to leaks on other sites. I'd say don't sign it.

[bugsy]

I agree with another poster. Accept the NDA, but with revisions around linking to other sites that are sharing information.

[DrtyBlvd]

*sheesh* :D

Sign it and try it. Providing they have no final cause to sue you as whatever you link to will already be in the public domain, what's to lose?

You don't have a relationship with them now anyway, so why not? Do read the small print and take legal advice if they fail to acknowledge this - but seeing as they are not idiots, and the publicity they will get from you will be worthwhile, I think they'll go for it.

[topps]

It's fair to ask you not to comment on your review model but it stinks that they're asking you not to link to leaks on other sites. I'd say don't sign it.

FWIW, John Dvorak claims he has never signed an NDA for much the same reasons given in volume by your posters here.

[peterawest]

Jason,

Unless I'm mistaken, the only way to get a new topic on the front page of your site is to contribute it to you or your team with your new form or through e-mail.

So, if you sign this document, am I correct that you would not be able to post any information on the HP products, even if we submit it to you, on your front page? If so, that means we will never see a top level article on their products until they agree to let you write about it.

I realize that we could still post information in the forums about rumors and stuff. But I confess that I usually read information based on what I find on your front page. So, now I wouldn't find any information about the new iPAQ or whatever. So even if others where tossing out the rumors or I wanted to post a link, many would miss out because they wouldn't be drawn to read the comments since there was nothing on the front page to catch their attention and direct them to it. :cry:

Is that correct?

- Peter -

[jack in the box]

It seems to me that the people who regularly use PPCT are people who are passionate about pocket PCs. People come here because they are interested in pocket PCs, not just because they need a gadget to keep their contact info in. These are the people who will probably be first in line to buy the next "great" pocket PC when it hits the shelves.

If you sign the NDA then you effectively become part of the HP marketing machine, writing what they want when they want it written. They would effectively be getting very cheap advertising, targeted at the very people they want it targeted at. Yet they will be paying $1000s for advertising to the general public who may well ignore it. Perhaps HP should be giving you the freebies anyway, paying you for the privilege of having you look at it and spreading the word to the community.

I would say don't sign.

[JF in Detroit]

I have not read the comments of others yet, and I gave myself some time before offering my comments to you.

From my perspective, going with them means the information we will get from this site will be 'official' and spun by people trained to spin. You will become a toady, and far less valuable to me. Stay independent :!:

[danmanmayer]

I am unsure of what is best here. I think i will probably be happy either way. So just figure out what others wnat and what you want yourself.

[Gen-M]

Jason - Having dealt with NDAs for years now, I can assure you that ALL aspects of the NDA are negotiable. 8O

Personally, I prefer your "views, rants and raves" to formal reviews after the product is released - there are ten other sites that will have reviews on the official release date. (That's why I watch PocketNow :wink: ).

If you can negotiate an acceptable NDA (Wes has a lot of good points here - but you need to negotiate somethiong acceptable to YOU.) then go ahead - it will not be easy. If you can't negotiate something acceptable to both you and HP (which will probably be the case), then don't worry about it. You've gotten successful without it, and you will continue to be successful :D

[jpmierau]

I bit my tongue for a long time on this one. It's almost hypocritical to comment, when at least part of me is posting as a fellow website maintainer who is EXTREMELY JEALOUS :-)

Nevertheless I've finally made my decision, for what it's worth - and you can quote me on this later: I would never sign an NDA with a company, Microsoft included, limiting my ability to promote the very news & rumors that gets me excited about running compu2go in the first place!

It's not worth losing your freedom for spec sheets on new iPAQs two weeks before they're released, even with review units given or loaned, if you fall victim to legal consequences by merely linking to previously broken news!

Simply put: it's your enthusiasm & the respect your comrades have for you (& therefore come to you first with news) that makes THOUGHTS what it is, not any particular revelations, even from a monster corp like HP!

Then again, I'm STILL jealous! Good luck with your decision, Jason ;-)

[dartman]

I think you should tell HP you will not sign the NDA but you would instead gladly take a machine on the first day of release for evaluation. I'm sure you could then give us a timely capabilities assessment and at the same time critique the prior months worth of rumors. In my area at least, it's several weeks before they show up in the stores so I'd still be ahead of the game.

Hearing the rumors is nice but I'd rather have an honest and accurate depiction on a production device. If you don't have the machine until after the release, there is no reason for an NDA.

David

[Jeff Rutledge]

Does anyone think that all of the recent iPAQ 5000 rumours that are floating around has motivated this move by HP? That maybe they're trying to get more control over the PPC community so that they can better control what's getting out there.

(or is it just the conspiracy theorist in me) :wink:

[Paragon]

Jason, there is a way you could have your cake and eat it too. There is no reason why one member of you team can't be under an NDA and the rest aren't. That would let that individual do the reviews for the forum while the rest of you could carry on as usual.

I think it would become apparent very quickly if this arrangement was not going to work.....the chosen individual sharing info with the rest of you. The are lots of instances that are like this. Steve Bush has been under NDAs at times in the past yet, he didn't share that info with Marlof, Mike Lynch, or Deb. I'm sure that eveyone at PDABuzz is, or was not under an NDA. Dale Coffing is under NDAs but doesn'r share his info with others involved with the site.

You could also put someone new in place on your team whose sole responsibility would be to handle HP products. This would allow the site to continue on as it does yet still be able to post real info on new HP products as they become official.

Dave

[Jason Dunn]

There is no reason why one member of you team can't be under an NDA and the rest aren't. That would let that individual do the reviews for the forum while the rest of you could carry on as usual.

Well, yes, there is one reason: HP said "no". :-) I asked for that exact thing, but they want ME and the SITE to be covered under this CDA. So it's an all or nothing arrangement.

[jpmierau]

The more I think about this, Jason, the more I believe that a gag order would be in HP's best interest. You've scored plenty of interesting stories, as well as rumors and 'scoops' without the help from any one institution.

Maybe that's part of the problem. The fact that you're successful. And if they've already turned down your 1st couonter-offer, I suspect there's a definitely dangerous strategy at work here.

Count me one of the conspiracy theorists, I think.

There is no reason why one member of you team can't be under an NDA and the rest aren't. That would let that individual do the reviews for the forum while the rest of you could carry on as usual.

Well, yes, there is one reason: HP said "no". :-) I asked for that exact thing, but they want ME and the SITE to be covered under this CDA. So it's an all or nothing arrangement.

[Paragon]

That's too bad Jason. I guess they must ask every employee of Znet to sign an agreement also. :roll:

I don't think they are giving you guys full credit for being professional. To think that if one of you knows something then you will all know I think is a bit amateur on their part.

Dave

[DrtyBlvd]

...but then they are asking for free press from a well respected website...

Kinda clashes doesn't it.

[DrtyBlvd]

Oo Oo - Had a thought - (!) - Why not send them the topic's URL and see what they come back with?

[pt]

Well, yes, there is one reason: HP said "no". :-) I asked for that exact thing, but they want ME and the SITE to be covered under this CDA. So it's an all or nothing arrangement.

well, it sounds pretty simple now. send them back the cda with your edits (per-product, limited time basis) and if they walk, then -that's- up to them.

i'd try and make it clear how thrilled you are that they're "talking" to the community, but speaking the same language might be the next step, it'll happen, companies are slowly getting it.

cheers,
pt

[possmann]

I've dealt with both Compaq and HP at a business/contractual level several times before and frankly - you can have it. These guys are classic in overstatements in the NDA's and you'll find yourself totally in a bind - unable to move in the manner you are used to related to this web site - or in any other areas of communication that "could" potentially leak out info.

I can live with the rumors, and I think most of us are smart enough to weed through multiple posts to help in identifying fact & fiction. I like as much information as soon as possible - and what WOULD happen with the new "HPaq" is that everyone else but this site would get the drop on it becuase they will cut your hands off until they say "OK". And by then, all you will be doing is just validating info rather than breaking news.

Finally - have you ever known these guys to release anything on time? Your could find yourself in a very long "2 weeks"...

I'd say (and did) No Jason.

[mookie123]

funny thing,

Let's say within 6-12 months, this whole whoo haa on CDA might be not as important long term as it seems. It might very well be that signing a CDA with HP regarding PDA is a bit like signing PR agreement with IBM in the mid 80's regarding PC. It sounds a big deal at first, but any enthusiast knows that's not where the action is.

When in doubt always pay attention to who will make the next cheap, standart thing that tickles hackers fancy who doesn't have fortune 500 IT budget.

By this measure the Hpaq 5000 is telling us the evolution of typical product design dubious move. Hpaq 5000 is designed to be the $800 Caddillac of the handheld when the market will be flooded with cheap and fun $300 Hondas. It has all the eye poping spec, just like IBM's high end PS/2, but any computer geek knows, calling up certain small company in Austin will get you a third of the price with built to order spec, perfect for that D&D all nite session, without the hassle of weird IBM connectors.

For some reason I think iPAQ won't be able to hold up in the next 6-12 months in the consumer market against Japanese design or direct Taiwanese marketer, if not rival like Dell. The trend is clear: price, spec, connectivity, standart peripherals.

Hpaq 5000 are not built on that trend, but the new models from Toshiba, Asus and now Dell will be.

remember, when in doubt, Dirt-cheap-but-just-work product, will win.

[rcecme]

How many times do we hear rumors of an product being released at a set date and then the date gets pushed bak (over and over and over?)

We would rather hear the rumors. They are usually quite accurate.

[fulltilt]

1. Sign, become one of the lackeys (get free kit :D )
2. Don't sign, be free to express yourself, but then can't complain when they don't send you pre-release versions....

What do the 'viewers' want..... mmmm

Fulltilt.

[EricMCarson]

I read this site to get up-to-date and early "rumor" type information. I don't use manufacturer's websites to get this info because they tend to release information only once they are ready to actually sell something. I'd rather see what's coming before I make an investment in a device that could be replaced. Please don't let HP control what you can and cannot post on this site.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

yup, what makes this site so much fun are the rumors and rants (and the occasional off-topic discussion that seems to get everyone riled up).

i think everyone will understand if you'd like to get a review unit ahead of time, but from a viewer's point of view, i don't think any of us see much of a benefit from it.

[cpoole]

I have been happy with the format & content of your site.

If signing this agreement means that you can only regurgitate what HP feeds you, then I am not sure if this will improve your site. So what if I get the facts a few weeks earlier. The rumors are always interesting to read. It will not ultimately make much difference in what I buy. If I am interested in a couple of products, I will just wait until they are on the market before deciding.

If this agreement means taking heat from HP every time you say something negative about their product then all you may become is another advertising vehicle for them.

Ultimate, this is your site & you must decide how you want to present it. Obviously, it is successful enough for HP to notice you. In the long term, you have to decide if the agreement makes you a partner or a prisoner.

[bbarker]

So the question is, which would you rather have as a reader of this site? Accurate information when we're allowed to talk about it, or links to rumours right when we hear about them?
The only HP PDA news I want to hear is that HP is bringing back the Jornada. I wish they would.

[Jonathon Watkins]

OK, I've read every post on this thread and think that you should not sing (for your supper). Sorry, that would be sign your site away. I come here for fast, frequent news, opinions & rants, ocasional reviews etc. IF this was a per device deal it would be OK, but if it's take it or leave it, then leave it.

Thanks for putting it to the vote. If only HP listened to it's users (bring back the Jornada). :puppydogeyes:

[jdhill]

Pocket PC Thoughts is NOT PDA Buyers Guide.

I don't come here for reviews. There really aren't that many posted anyway.

The faithful have spoken. Tell HP "CDA??? We don't need no stinking CDA !!!"

[Grey]

Well I really question if you can get accurate information from HpCompaq. I just can't believe, that HpCompaq will not have a final product a lot longer than two weeks before it's released. As to the information you'll get.... I can't help think it will just be what HpCompaq wants you to know. Like the so called SD slot in the 3870, and the Bluetooth. Also you'll be getting the PDA they want you to have. I got to wonder how close these will be to what the average user would get.

[Jeff Rutledge]

So Jason, to sum up:

1. Be flattered
2. Don't sign.

:D

[Dave Conger]

I just can't believe, that HpCompaq will not have a final product a lot longer than two weeks before it's released.

Yeah, they will have a final product well before two weeks before it is announced...he just won't get the specs until two weeks before. The spec on the product won't change, the last few months will be bug checks and stuff. Jason would get the final spec two weeks before everyone else knows and finalized hardware for review.

[commander66]

i think 2 weeks is a joke. everyone else will know what the new ipaq looks like 2 MONTHS before.
hp just wants to have more influence.

[JvanEkris]

I would discuss the matter with HP. You could link to photos etc.: they are on the net anyway. I guess as long as you don't (ab)use your knowledge to start romours it would be OK. You have a function in that.


Jaap

[jkovacs]

To me 2 weeks is nothing. And if you can't talk about what you see then what really is the point for a site like this. Maybe I'm missing something but I think it devalues your site if you can't post information you have, or links to information others without CDAs have. What good is accurate nformation if you can't use it. I really applaud HP. This seems like a solid business strategy to stop leaks from being posted. Its a real sign of respect for your site from HP that they would want to shut-off the information flow. They must recognize the strong following you have.

...Joe K.

[Sunnyone]

I agree with other posts that 2 weeks is not enough time to make this worth your while. I vote no. I enjoy the rumors and hearing about new hardware/software as soon as information is available -- and rumors can are just plain fun! You make sure to qualify rumors as such so as not to mislead us less knowledgable readers. :roll: