Are we really in a computerized society?

[Jason Dunn]

I need to rant here for a minute - bear with me.<br /><br />I was at Chapters last night (a big book store chain we have in Canada) doing some research for a book I'm possibly writing, and my wife and I decided to pick up a couple of books. I'm a member of their "Chapters Club", which gets me 10% discounts on most purchases, but I never carry the card with me because I usually order online. Incredibly, when I went up to the till, they had no way to look my account up. They have no method to look up a customer account unless that customer has the card with them! They have no connection to their own web site for customer data. Further, when I shop online I get $5 rebate coupons - and these coupons can only be used in the store, not online (oh the humanity of it all!).<br /><br />It amazes me that in 2002 we're still shackled to bar codes and magnetic strips for our identities and claiming vendor promotions - we still need to carry little "2 for 1" coupons in our wallets or purses. Why is that? Beyond the basic reason of disparate systems that can't communicate easily with each other, there's a more sinister element at play here in some organizations: those dang marketing people. Because I forgot my Chapters Club card, and, shucks, they have no way to look up my information, I lose my 10% discount. Bottom line? The company makes 10% more from my purchase. <br /><br />Another great example: Blockbuster has a program that you join for $10 a year, and it gives you a $2-off coupon every month. But instead of digitally tying those coupons to your account, making it automatic, they're betting that out of those twelve coupons, the average customer will only use some of them because they'll forget to carry them into the store. Yet another example: I saw two CDs I wanted to buy in a local music store, but opted to walk to the other end of the shopping mall to the store that was charging $2 more per CD, just to get two stamps on my "Buy 10 get 1 free" card. Guess what? They discontinued the program and have no replacement. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_evil.gif" /> Why was I being loyal to that company again?<br /><br />Sometimes corporate greed frustrates me. There's nothing wrong with making money, but don't do it at the expense of your customers. If you're going to create systems to reward your customers for shopping there, REWARD them! Don't make it difficult for them to benefit from your programs, and don't give them a reason to get frustrated and shop elsewhere. Rant done. I feel better. Been frustrated by something similar recently?

[Fitch]

I remember when I realized the same thing. It's not about connectivity, it's totally about marketing. What gets me is the marketing of rebates. They are COMPLETELY designed around people's inconvenince. Here's a marketing chart http://www.frontlinenow.com/newsletter/redemptionrates.html that shows that less than 50% usually remember. Rebates aren't a reward, they're a trick. And coupons? They're not rewards. They're little pieces of marketing trackers. It's worth $5 or 10% just to see how their marketing is doing.
So if I were you, I'd've left that store and ordered online in protest. I always dilligently fill out my rebate forms. Don't let the man push you down!!
hehe, sorry, little carried away :lol:

[Jason Dunn]

...that shows that less than 50% usually remember. Rebates aren't a reward, they're a trick.

I can't believe what I'm reading here:

"Planning a rebate promotion for your product in the channel? Here's a convenient planning guide for estimating redemption rates based on statistics compiled by TCA Fulfillment. TCA Fulfillment stands behind these rates. If you are using another fulfillment company, add 20% to these redemption rates."

They're BRAGGING about having a WORSE redemption rate, because it only makes more money for the company. They're PROUD of the fact that less consumers turn in their rebates than anyone else. How sick is that? When did customers become the enemy? When did we become so easy to trick? :evil:

[madmaxmedia]

I think you have some different stuff mixed together here-

Regarding rebates, I don't consider them a 'trick'. A trick would be if you sent in the rebate and never got your rebate money. Rebate terms are always spelled out pretty clearly, just send in your form and receipt within a month or so, and you get your money.

It is true that rebate redemption rates are ridiculously low, but whose fault is that? The company or the consumer? It's because redemption rates are so low that companies can often offer such great rebates. What really ends up happening is that those that redeem are 'profiting' at the expense of those that don't redeem.

If you know you're the type of person that never sends in the rebate form, don't buy stuff based on rebate discounts.

The other stuff I totally agree with. Discontinuing promotional programs without any recourse for the customer, not having a simple lookup to verify someone's membership...these things are not so much indicative of a non-computerized society as they are just examples of poor business. In the end, what comes around goes around. I always hated Blockbuster anyway- why does a 1 day late fee cost just as much as the 5-day rental?

Regarding the coupons and stuff, paper coupons are going to be around for awhile simply because most consumers don't have the means to use anything else. Most people get the Sunday paper delivered, and clip coupons, so that's how you reach them. Same goes with the discount cards at supermarkets and stuff.

[PPCRules]

... Bottom line? The company makes 10% more from my purchase.
Bottom line is they should loose the sale. Problem there is that they have no way to measure that, so they won't realize it.

And I ditto the rebate comments made by Fitch.
I can't see how established companies, be it the retailer or manufacturer, can be willing to take the ill feelings that are generated when a person is ripped off on a rebate, be it restrictive conditions, plain lack of fulfillment, or even customer error or forgetfulness. I know it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I loose a rebate that coerced me to buy something, and I don't forget it. I can tell you every retailer and manufacturer and the amount of money involved over the last 4 or so years. But, again, they have no way to measure such ill will generated, and they can measure low followthrough and the profits gained, so they don't see the problem and nothing will change.

Get us started on rebates and this will be a long discussion.

[Jason Dunn]

It is true that rebate redemption rates are ridiculously low, but whose fault is that? The company or the consumer? It's because redemption rates are so low that companies can often offer such great rebates. What really ends up happening is that those that redeem are 'profiting' at the expense of those that don't redeem.

I know what you're saying, and perhaps it's too strong to call them a "trick", but I'm very good about sending in rebates and several times I've felt like I've been screwed by them. Like when they expire three days after you buy the product (and you didn't realize this), or you need to send in something that you don't have, and sometimes the complexity is just mind boggling (triplicate copies of this, sign here but not there). Even the language they use can be a barrier for people with poor English skills. I think all those elements contribute to the low rebate conversion rate.

If it was a "true" rebate, it would be done instantly at the till when you buy it - but instant rebates are pretty rare in comparison to traditional rebates.

Call me simple, but just let me buy your product at the best price you can sell it to me for and be done with it.

[Sven Johannsen]

Rebates :evil: I hate friggin rebates. Yes I send them in. If you do this a lot, you need a PC to track them, since they take anywhere from 2-6 months to show up. Then they show up with nothing to say what they were for, except the amount. So even if you track them, you have to wonder what you bought from Consumer Fullfillment Center, Youngstown, OH.

The irritating thing to me though is the ad pricing. Tell me what I have to shell out of my pocket, not what I will supposedly pay if I send in the three rebates, the store rebate, the manufacturer rebate, the special combined offer rebate, and wait twelve weeks.

Just my 2 cents (actually $10 with a $9.98 rebate)

[Jason Dunn]

Just my 2 cents (actually $10 with a $9.98 rebate)

ROTFLMAO....!!!! :lol: :lol:

[madmaxmedia]

I can't see how established companies, be it the retailer or manufacturer, can be willing to take the ill feelings that are generated when a person is ripped off on a rebate, be it restrictive conditions, plain lack of fulfillment, or even customer error or forgetfulness.

If a company offers a rebate with hidden strings, then I'm totally with you. Something that the customer isn't aware of, that prevents them from getting the rebate money. That's just another bad example of bad business.

But what are you going to do beyond printing the terms (especially the deadline date) right there on the form? Call the customer's mother?

Rebates are a way for companies to offer promotions on products that are already in stores, without having to complicate things with the retailers or distributors- the retailers have already bought product at a certain price and want to sell it at their price. The rebate avoids the entire supply chain and often (not always) goes straight from the manufacturer to the consumer.

Yes, the rebate redemption % comes into play. But again, that's why there are such good rebate offers out there. How else could you get a case of 100 CD-R's for $5, or even free? No one is 'coercing' you into doing anything. If a company makes a reasonable effort to outline the terms of (any) sales promotion, it's up to you to determine whether you want to buy their product. If you're bad at redeeming rebates, don't factor them in your purchase decision- how hard is that?

I've failed on plenty an occasion in the past to send in a rebate and have kicked myself. But I have never once considered it the company's 'fault' that I couldn't spend 2 minutes to send in a letter within 1 or 2 months after I bought the product.

Actually, now that I have my PDA, I've never failed to redeem a rebate- all I need to do is create an appointment a week before the deadline, and I get it done!

[Jimmy Dodd]

OK, at the risk of being totally alone on this I'm going to come down on the other side on just about everything.

1) Rebates. Rebates are not a trick. They do not "coerce" you into buying something. As long as the rebater delivers the promised goods to the rebatee once the rebatee does what is required then how can it be a trick? If someone loses the receipt or is too lazy to fill out a card and put it in the mail then who is to blame? Just because a high percentage of people fall into the "too lazy" category why should we look down on rebates? If you are too busy to fill out the card then don't make your purchase based on the cost with the rebate.

2) Discount card systems cost money. Giving access to the account at every cash register costs money. Training some high school kid to look up the information costs money. All these enticements to get you to shop somewhere get passed right back to you in the form of markup. Heck it costs me time if I'm standing in line behind you and you forgot your card and Joe-Teenager takes fifteen minutes to find your $2.00 discount. What does it cost for you to put the card in your wallet and leave it there? NOTHING.


we still need to carry little "2 for 1" coupons in our wallets or purses. Why is that?


3) I'll tell you why. Because that little coupon is a subtle hint to come in and buy something. They're begging you to come shop with them. There's nothing sinister about that. They give you (or sell you, you weren't specific) a 10% discount in return for carrying a little billboard in your wallet that says "come spend you money with us, not those other guys." What's wrong with that? Heck 10% adds up to a lot in a year for me. For the cost of carrying a quarter ounce of plastic I save about $200 a year in books alone.

Honest marketing doesn't trick anyone. It doesn't coerce anyone. It tries hard to convince people that they want or need something more than something else. Unless you are ridiculously succeptible to suggestion (if you are then send me all of your money, right now!) most people recognize marketing for what it is. If the coupons and cards bother you and you feel they are a trick used to bilk you out of your hard earned cash then don't use them. Don't base purchases on rebates (they aren't mandatory). Don't join clubs that get you 10% discounts (you won't have to remember the card that way). Don't clip coupons, don't watch for sales, don't comparison shop at vendors who match prices + 10%, and don't purchase extended warranties that you might not remember to use.

Pay full price everytime and marketing will go away.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've go to go clip some coupons and mail some rebates. :wink:

Bwana Jim

[AZMark]

Max; that's good marketing class material, but not real life.

Rebates are offered right off the bat on new PC's.
Rebates are set up by business people not marketers.
Rebates are intended to confuse.
Rebate companies do lengthen the time it will take to get your rebate. (How much money do they save if you can't cash the check because you have changed address? If it takes 6mo to get your rebate, that could be a huge sum)

The retailers could just as easily be compensated by sending them the rebates allowing them to discount the product on the shelf.

It's just business, not good Marketing. Bottom line stuff, how to squeeze an extra penny.

[Janak Parekh]

If you're going to create systems to reward your customers for shopping there, REWARD them! Don't make it difficult for them to benefit from your programs, and don't give them a reason to get frustrated and shop elsewhere.
The problem also is - are they really going to shop elsewhere? Is retention an issue due to rebates and promos? If I'm going to buy a book in a store, it's usually a given I'm going to Barnes & Noble, for example. With the evolution of super-stores, the likelihood you're going to walk out and go somewhere else is much less.

Maybe one should make a list of "e-friendly stores"...

--bdj

[madmaxmedia]

Max; that's good marketing class material, but not real life.

Rebates are offered right off the bat on new PC's.
Rebates are set up by business people not marketers.
Rebates are intended to confuse.
Rebate companies do lengthen the time it will take to get your rebate. (How much money do they save if you can't cash the check because you have changed address? If it takes 6mo to get your rebate, that could be a huge sum)

The retailers could just as easily be compensated by sending them the rebates allowing them to discount the product on the shelf..

Yes in many cases I'm sure you are completely right. But it doesn't change the fact that if a company offers a rebate with terms up front, it's not their fault if a consumer doesn't redeem it.

Not 'all' rebates are intended to confuse. How is 'Please include copy of receipt, this form, and UPC symbol. Redemption must be postmarked by XX/XX/XX. Please allow 6 to 8 weeks for your check' confusing? That's how most rebate forms seem to be (at least the ones I see from reputable manufacturers.) In the last couple of months I've gotten great deals on Sony memory sticks and some RAM for my notebook computer, thanks to rebates.

ALL marketing and business is subject to trickery and deception, including rebates. You can certainly make things difficult on purpose, to try to reduce the rebate redemption. Obviously no one condones that. Personally, I think Jason's example of Blockbuster not linking his discount card to his membership is worse.

I have no idea where you distinguish 'business people' from 'marketers'. Aren't marketers business people? Depends on how you define 'marketing' but I don't think most people would draw such a distinction.

It's just business, not good Marketing. Bottom line stuff, how to squeeze an extra penny.

Isn't that what marketing AND business are about? Trying to make a profit? As in, companies have to make some sort of profit to exist. I know there are other motives for being in business, etc. just as I know rebates can be used to deceive people. I just don't understand how people can see them as inherently and fundamentally evil.

[madmaxmedia]

Since your original post is about marketing and a computerized society, has anyone seen "Minority Report"?

[scottmag]

I spent many years in the packaged goods industry doing market analysis. Coupon redemption is ridiculously low. Often around 1% for food items. So at any given time there are billions in outstanding money-saving offers, but almost none of it will get used.

Years ago, the biggest couponer of all, Procter & Gamble, wanted out of the costly coupon distribution business. It was costing them far too much money to print, distribute, and handle the redemption of paper coupons. Being the category leader they attempted to lead the way and stop with the wasteful coupons (I've seen estimates that it costs around US$1.00 to process a coupon in addition to the face value). But its competitors did not follow suit and the paper coupon remains as common today.

The most insidious of these programs is the supermarket loyalty card. In exchange for you personal information a grocery chain will give you a loyalty card entitling you to sales. No card, no sale items. I feel I have no choice but to use this system despite the privacy implications because the "savings" are too great. In reality the regular prices are higher to make up for the deep discounting. So if you do not use the supermarket card you are in effect subsidizing the purchases of those who do. I typically save 15-30% with the card so it is inconceivable to me to shop without it.

While attending a strategy meeting at the headquarters of this particular grocery chain years ago, a promotional manager grabbed someone's card and pulled up a history of everything that person had purchased. Powerful stuff to us as a marketing partner with that chain. But also disturbing as an individual shopper. If it's any consolation, I know of no company outside of Walmart that has enough competence to actually use the data they collect. That's in the physical, bricks & mortar world, world.

This particular grocery chain often runs multi-week promotions where a shopper spending over a certain amount, like $35, gets an entry for that week. Collect enough during the promotion (say, 8 of 10) and you get something relatively valuable, like a $50 credit or a comparably priced item. What burns me up is that I need to retain these paper receipts. I actually know that the shopping history data is there and they can easily determine that I qualify. Why not just give me the goodies? Probably as has been mentioned here, the lower redemption rates when the consumer is forced to retain and redeem a piece of paper.

This could all change with some type of smartcard. But, in the US at least, privacy concerns make that seem unlikely to happen. Since I always buy with a credit or debit card I know that my purchase history is recorded no matter where I shop. So accepting that, why can't my card also contain my frequent shopper information? I like to have a thin wallet so I am not going to carry any more cards.

Scott

[Jason Dunn]

Rebates are not a trick.

Oh yeah? :twisted: Why do some rebates take 6+ months to get paid out? Why have there been huge lawsuits over rebate companies scamming people by taking so long? (Iomega comes to mind) It's not as clean-cut as you'd like to believe. I'm not saying that rebates are a bad thing (I did one for a game I bought last night), but what I AM saying is that sometimes they make too hard for people to take advantage of them - and the companies KNOW this. They WANT people to fail at using them. And to me, that smacks of dishonesty.

What does it cost for you to put the card in your wallet and leave it there? NOTHING.

Spoken like someone with either few cards or a very fat wallet. :D I try to carry a very slim wallet, and having a card for every single store I go into is just plain stupid. You completely missed my point about the lack of a single card or tying rebates/promotions to the PERSON instead of a piece of plastic. Why can't it be as simple as "Thanks for buying this Mr. Smith, your rebate form has been electronically filed for you." Why can't things work that way? Because they can't? No. Because they make more money by taking advantage of people who forget to send it in, lose their receipt, etc. Again, dishonesty.

Because that little coupon is a subtle hint to come in and buy something. They're begging you to come shop with them.

Again, you're not understanding what I'm saying. I rent videos from one place: Blockbuster. That's the only place I go, period. It's close, it's convenient, and they have a great selection. They have my consumer loyalty already - why bog me down with stupid coupons? Give me the benefits of being a loyal customer without having to rely on little scraps of paper. One GOOD program they have is when I rent five movies in one month, I get one free. It's all tracked electronically, and it makes me happy as a consumer. Why doesn't their other program work this way? Because they know that people are going to forget their coupons. Dishonest.

[Jason Dunn]

Since your original post is about marketing and a computerized society, has anyone seen "Minority Report"?

Not yet. I'm still waiting for my rebate to come back on the tickets I bought - I'll see it in six months maybe. :lol:

[Ed Hansberry]

That is the way rebates work. Rebates are work for the consumer. Having just purchased a new Dell desktop with a $100 rebate and a Bellsouth DSL like with a one month rebate on service and a rebate to get my money back on a DSL modem, these guys are betting I'll forget or not bother with the paperwork. :evil: As stupid as it sounds, I have a rebate list in Listpro to keep up with what I am promised by companies with phone numbers, dates, etc. Asinine. But the more that forget, the more the company makes. {shrug}

Also, why don't you have your Chapters card information in eWallet? :wink: If they have to physically have it to scan it, that is one thing, but if they just needed the 48 digit number, you would have had it in your Pocket PC.

[Ashley Dunn]

I couldn't resist responding to this thread after reading Jason's two most recent posts.

Considering I'm the one who usually ends up filling out the rebate forms and gathering all the appropriate information to submit with those forms, I felt the need to express my opinion. As if typing on a computer all day long isn't carpal tunnel-inducing enough, having to fill out the silly forms for every single rebate offered gets to be a bit tedious. If for no other reason than customer convenience, I'd like to see some sort of electronic form that can be filled out.

I've heard Minority Report is really good - lots of twists and turns that you don't expect. I can't wait to see it - although hopefully I won't have to wait six months. :wink:

[DrtyBlvd]

Hmmm.

We don't (To my knowledge) have rebates in the UK - I wonder why?

We do have coupons though, but nowhere near on the scale that I have seen them used in the States.

I've skimmed all of the posts above, and really only see the essence of Jasons original - and to which I answer yup, everyday.

To put it more on a tech side than a marketing one, try this one for size -

I visit the Sony Vaio site to buy a wireless LAN card & access point (£500)

I fill out the form and get prompt confirmation that the stuff will arrive in two days.

Two days later I call Sony to enquire if there has been a delay as it hasn't arrived.

I am told that I should have had a phone call telling me that it hadn't actually been dispatched. (Didn't get one)

Fearing a card number data entry error I apologise and offer my details - to which I am told that no, thats not the problem - the problem is that they will not send out the stuff unless they have a copy of my card and ID... :!: ....to which I ask them how am I supposed to arrange that as they are in Holland and I am in the UK on a Friday afternoon at the pub?

Can I scan it they ask? No I can't. I'm in the middle of the country side. Can I fax a copy? No, as the nearest photocopier is 22 miles away.

At this juncture I am incredulous that SONY, not a small time operation, are putting me through this.

Can I send you a picture I ask? Yes they say.

I was joking I say... :!: ... but will do so if it will sort this out - as there didn't appear to be much alternative to my desire - so I dash home at half time, take Pic, send to email address of the customer service lady, and finally receive stuff two days later.

So amidst this shortened and expletive free version of events, I finally decide to find out WHY they needed to see my card (both sides mind, not just the front - therby opening me up to all sorts of abuse from the issuer were it to become known - I mean, my card, the numbers front and rear, and my goddamn signature FFS) and call them to speak to the supervisor to get an answer .

I am told that it is to prevent fraud; Well, OK, I can understand that, it's not a £20 toaster I'm buying - but why can't they check the card and verify the sending address is the same as the billing address? Ah they tell me -

"it isn't possible due to the data protection act"

8O 8O 8O 8O 8O

And do you know what?

They're absolutely right

The mind boggles.

The DP act is it's name in the UK, that basically protects us from having our data shared checked or accessed by anyone that didn't originally take it ; in other words, Sony can't ask the credit card company and the credit card company can't tell them by system or anything. Most countries have it I guess, in some shape or form, and it's there for good and valid reasons.

*sigh*

[ledowning]

I agree somewhat with Jason, although my pet peeve is all the "rewards" cards that almost each and every store has to allow you some discounts and savings on products. I must have at least 2 dozen cards that I have collected over the past year and a half. The discounts are nice, but at the expense of ruining your health in trying to carry all that stuff in your hip pocket. In this day and age, couldn't someone come up with a way to have all this data on one card that can be swiped anywhere????

[madmaxmedia]

After reading Scott's post I do have to turn the other cheek in one regard.

If a company truly wanted to create a rebate that is automatically redeemed, it wouldn't be that hard. Since many purchases are made by credit cards nowadays, it's at least conceptually possible to have a rebate check sent automatically to the card owner's address, or of course have a discount applied on the spot.

To me, it's like the old saying '6 of one or half-dozen of the other'. If a company wants to rip you off, rebates are only one method. But rebates from honest businesses are often a great deal. No Staples or CompUSA is going to have a 'stuff for free' sale and literally give stuff away. But if you just exercise a little judgement and willpower, you can pretty much get stuff for free or very little in many cases with rebates.

Regarding Minority Report- I won't talk about the movie since some here haven't seen it. But I was referring to one specific aspect. People are eye-scanned everywhere in the movie, including malls. So when you walk by a future Gap store, a holographic woman (or man if you're female I guess) greets you by your name and suggests some clothes for you (presumable based on your previous purchases there.) Pretty much just an extrapolation of marketing today...

[mookie123]

This is my rule on rebates:

1. Instant rebate with no question ask is cool. (even the pennies coupon, I take em)

2.If you want to collect information on me with some sort of reward, than it comes with a price.
-Lower than 10% discount or $under 10 will not get even wink.
-at 10% and $10-100 instant discount, if I can control what sort of information I can enter than it's a deal. You might have a deal of name, phone, street addy, but only pick 2, one is fake. And I control how many cards and permutation you will get. (heck, This is what PDA is good for...)
-at 20% or $200 they would get more considarable effort. I would ask, how instant the rebate is, what is the real value to me, and how can I screw with their data mining process. I would pull out various virtual customer profile from my PDA.

3.Never trust mail in rebate even as big as $200 I wouldn't bite it specially computer item. (it would take half a century for them to send it to me)

4. never buy rare book with registered account. I rather the bookstore knows me as average joe with bad taste of reading.

5.never give a single company/holding company the ability to picture your entire consumption behavior. Company will come and go, get bought, sold their assets, etc. But data never dies.

6. Never trust Microsoft, Citibank, or insurance companies. (they are more nefarious than spam mailer.) (Your .net pasport will track your every movement my dear!)
-----------
This is specially fun if you have a group of friends with as crazy of nut cases than you are controlling about 80-90% purchase of that rare cheap wine and grocery brand spaghetti. (live in small university town)

-so in my group households, we have created a situation where we give an illusion of a super rich customer . (tons of free sample! Try cross linking magazine subscription, with various select purchase on that fake name)

Try combining scientific american with some expensive women magazine, than purchase something from that women magazine/ordercatalog. conect it with soon to be expire Creditcard on that alternate address. It works like a charm.

[Dave Beauvais]

So far, the worst store (not manufacturer) rebate I've ever seen personally was for a Microsoft Mouse. I forget what store it was from, unfortunately. It was a $15 mouse with a $15 rebate. The problem? I had to send in the original receipt, not a copy; the rebate coupon, with lines so small, I could just bareful fit the required information in; and... the box. Not just the UPC symbol from -- the whole damn box.

So to get this rebate, I'd have had to find a big envelope to mail it in and add additional postage for the bulk and weight. Even flattened down, the box was still quite large. Instead, I returned the mouse to the store, told them why I was returning it, (they didn't seem to care,) and sent a letter to the rebate address expressing my extreme displeasure at the rebate requirements.

LOL!! :lol: Sorry, I'm still chuckling from Sven's comment earlier in the thread! :lol:

Dave

[Jimmy Dodd]

Rebates are not a trick.

Oh yeah? :twisted: Why do some rebates take 6+ months to get paid out? Why have there been huge lawsuits over rebate companies scamming people by taking so long? (Iomega comes to mind) It's not as clean-cut as you'd like to believe.

...

And to me, that smacks of dishonesty.


OK. Now we're talking about two different things here and lumping them together. Rebates that are scams are dishonest and illegal. Period. There's nothing more to be said on the subject.

However, it is not fair to say that rebates in general are inherently dishonest. Marketing is a gamble. Companies spend money on advertising in hopes that it will increase sales. They are gambling that the cost of the advertising will be more than covered by the increase in sales produced by the advertising. Rebates are the same thing. Companies foot the money for the processing and the rebated cash in the hopes that it will be more than offset by the increase in sales. If a small percentage of people feel it is worth their while to fill out the rebate card then the gamble pays off. If not they take a loss. There's no dishonesty there.


sometimes they make too hard for people to take advantage of them


Too hard???? How hard is it to fill out your name and address (they have to mail it to you y'know), enclose the rebate coupon (they have to know what you claim to have done to be entitled to the rebate), and put it in the mail. Maybe you've seen some rebate offers that require more but that's about all I've ever had to do. Heck, Best Buy gives you two receipts so you don't even have to make a copy.


They WANT people to fail at using them.


I'm going to assume you meant "fail to use them" and not "fail at using them." Otherwise see above comment regarding how hard can it be.

If a rebate coupon says you'll get paid in 4-6 weeks and you don't then that's dishonest. If a company expects only 20% of elligible persons to take advantage of the offer then that's just playing the odds.


What does it cost for you to put the card in your wallet and leave it there? NOTHING.

Spoken like someone with either few cards or a very fat wallet. :D I try to carry a very slim wallet, and having a card for every single store I go into is just plain stupid. You completely missed my point about the lack of a single card or tying rebates/promotions to the PERSON instead of a piece of plastic. Why can't it be as simple as "Thanks for buying this Mr. Smith, your rebate form has been electronically filed for you." Why can't things work that way? Because they can't? No. Because they make more money by taking advantage of people who forget to send it in, lose their receipt, etc. Again, dishonesty.


That's not dishonesty. If they offered a rebate and then didn't make good on it then that is dishonesty. Playing the odds is not dishonest. Do you think insurance companies are dishonest for accepting your freely given money and then not paying you back when you don't make any claims? It's the same thing. Now you want the retailer to have to be responsible for filing the rebate for you? HP offers a rebate and now every CompUSA, Best Buy, Radio Shack, etc. has to update their register systems with new software? Come on. Take two minutes and a stamp and fill out and mail the rebate. If your time is worth more than $20 for two minutes then don't bother. I do understand what you're saying. I just disagree that it's dishonest.

BTW, my wallet used to be fat until I started culling out the cards I don't use very often and putting them in a seperate business card folder. I leave that in the car's glove box so I'll always have it. That way my wallet is still svelte.


Because that little coupon is a subtle hint to come in and buy something. They're begging you to come shop with them.

Again, you're not understanding what I'm saying. I rent videos from one place: Blockbuster. That's the only place I go, period. It's close, it's convenient, and they have a great selection. They have my consumer loyalty already - why bog me down with stupid coupons? Give me the benefits of being a loyal customer without having to rely on little scraps of paper. One GOOD program they have is when I rent five movies in one month, I get one free. It's all tracked electronically, and it makes me happy as a consumer. Why doesn't their other program work this way? Because they know that people are going to forget their coupons. Dishonest.

I understand what you are saying. It's annoying to have to use a paper coupon. Sure, I agree. I'm just saying that there is a difference between inconveniencing you (actually, not conveniencing you enough) and being dishonest.

I don't carry my Blockbuster card with me because I rarely rent videos (and, yes, I like a thin wallet, too). On those spur of the moment times I do I always go to Blockbuster because they take other forms of ID for renting. That's great for me (I get my DVD) and great for them (they get my money). If they lost sales because people forgot their coupons they probably would come up with some kind of electronic coupon. Of course then you would have a lot of dishonest people claiming that they have e-coupons and that there must be "something wrong with Blockbusters computer" if it says otherwise. The paper coupons are a tangible way of avoiding that. I've stood in line while people argued that there gift cards should have more value left on them because they haven't used them yet and it can get really ugly.

On the subject of tracking things electronically, most people aren't too keen on having their purchases attached to their name. Rentals of course require it, but purchases? There is no reason in the world for anyone to know what books or magazines I buy at B&amp;N. In my case it's not very interesting (geeky books rarely are) but for some out there I'm sure they'd rather remain anonymous. I don't want someone culling through the local liquor store records to find how much wine I buy during a month. People can read a lot of things into a little information.

What it all boils down to is that business is about business. There is nothing altruistic about "the customer is always right" and the more you understand that the better off you'll be. (The unadulterated line is "the customer is always right if it means they'll give us their money.")

&lt;thought shift>

Now then, back to the other part of your topic. Why can't things be more connected? (OK, so I paraphrased it) The reason for that is cost. Businesses will only implement what they see as being profitable. If you frequent Blockbuster because of one program (the buy 5 get one free deal) but don't take your business elsewhere because of the paper coupons then they have no incentive to change. We are mostly geeks here who think technology for its own sake is great. Business people look at the bottom line. After all, it's how they make a living and stay in business. Obviously, if it's not inconveniencing you enough to go elsewhere it isn't worth dipping into profits to improve it.

Bwana Jim

[PPCRules]

Several people reacted earlier to my poor choice of words, when I used "coerce". I didn't mean to suggest I was blaming someone else. What I meant was that I probably would not have bought the item for the non-rebate price. Furthermore, on my "bad taste in my mouth" comment, I was again not saying anyone but myself was to blame, and I wasn't suggesting I had been deceived. My point was that the memory of the situation puts a shadow over anything connected with that retailer or manufacturer, and they aren't even going to realize it.

... If for no other reason than customer convenience, I'd like to see some sort of electronic form that can be filled out.
Did anyone do the iPaq rebate thing last year? You filled out a form online, including serial number. They confirm your eligibility and give you a tracking code. You print out a page with a bar code on it and send that in with your proof of purchase.
Talk about a win-win situation. You enter your data electronically. No sqeezing letters into tiny boxes. You check that it's accuarate and noone will mess it up again. They have your product registered to you by serial number. All the data is already electronically in their system.
They get your mailed submission. Scan barcode on your printout. Scan your proof of purchase. No data entry errors. No data entry payroll. Rebate is ready and you can log on and confirm that it is (then they wait for 6-8 weeks to cut the check).
Now why can't every rebate be that way? They'll still get enough no-follow-thoughs to make some money, and their fulfillment costs should be less. Their loyal customers should have had a satisfying experince and come back for more (but then again, I haven't bought any Compaq product since).

[jmulder]

3.Never trust mail in rebate even as big as $200 I wouldn't bite it specially computer item. (it would take half a century for them to send it to me)

Funny you should bring this one up. My wife bought my Jornada 568 for me using her CompUSA employee discount. Soon after, she sent away for a $300 rebate from HP (also available only to employees of retail resellers). 8 weeks later she received her rebate info back with a letter saying she didn't qualify for the rebate. She called the outfit and explained why she did qualify, and they said to send it in again with a note stating who she talked to and that she really did qualify. Flash forward 7 MONTHS to when she finally received the rebate check. Ironically, my Jornada's screen had gone completely batty earlier that day :?

Thank God my wife bought the extended warranty on it...now I've got a new Jornada with no dust and a functioning screen. (I typically don't buy extended warranties, but for high use portable items like PDA's, I'm now a believer!!)

-Jim

[innersky]

I don't fall anymore for rebates and stuff. It doesn't work for the customer anyway. If I see something that I want to buy, I just buy it, without even thinking about rebates. In fact, if a shop offers me a "buy 10, get 1 free card", I refuse it.

What does bother me lately, is the lack of customer support you get. That is, close to nothing most of the time...and there's even no difference in expensive/cheap brands.

[blantrip]

Great thread, and I have to agree that the manufacturers must be counting on rebate offers to draw an interest in their product without having to fulfill the rebate offer. What I'm getting at is, it's a matter of statistics. If Mfr. X has a rebate offer that results in a product being free or close to free, and every purchaser took advantage of the offer, that company would take a big hit. They would have paid for the rebate advertisement, the form, the processing, the costs associated with the product, development, marketing, distribution, etc. We know they wouldn't do this because of their kind hearts. Logic tells us there must be a catch. The only one I can see is that they depend on the fact that more people will buy the product, without submitting the rebate than people that do submit the rebate. Is it their fault that consumers are lazy? Or is it wrong to take advantage of consumer weaknesses? It’s just the way of capitalism; that’s the way it is. But it is fun to rant and rave about. I used to love to watch my wife go grocery shopping with coupons though. The checkout clerks would run for a break when they saw her in line with a two inch stack of coupons. But I did have pity for the poor guy behind her with a gallon of milk and a pack of nylons or some other womanly product, just trying to get the heck out of the store.

Rebates are simply a marketing tool, and a marketing tool is designed to sell and track a product so the manufacturer can make a profit. I don't believe there are many rebates out there that actually try to deceive the consumer, but that is probably more due to consumer protection laws than a desire to deal with the consumer fairly.

Regarding our computerized society:

I love when I call oh say my credit card company. The automated system first asks for your account number to be entered. Then it gives a bevy of options (none of which ever seems exactly what I'm looking for). After a few minutes of menu navigation, you finally get to talk to a human. Then the first thing they ask for is:....your account number. Well, what was the purpose of entering this number in the beginning of my call?

Or a phone call asks for an account number, but I don't happen to have the 16 digit alpha/numeric easy to remember number memorized yet, so I ask if they could use my name and address...sorry, they can't look it up that way.

Another great example was the cable company calling and asking me if I subscribed to Showtime and if not, would I like to subscribe? Hello, don't they know if I subscribe or not? Of course not, just take all the customer information and sick some marketing agency on them to try and earn an extra buck.

Sorry for the rant….you may now resume your normal programming.

[rlitchfield]

I've heard Minority Report is really good - lots of twists and turns that you don't expect. I can't wait to see it - although hopefully I won't have to wait six months. :wink:

Jason.....take your increadibly patient and understanding (she does let you spend hours with us here online) wife out on the town!!

:D

Robert

[Jason Dunn]

Jason.....take your increadibly patient and understanding (she does let you spend hours with us here online) wife out on the town!!

As a matter of fact, we're just about to head out for an evening on the town - Tony Roma's ribs and Minority Report. Mmm....good! 8)

[topps]

I need to rant here for a minute - bear with me.

I was at Chapters last night

I'm a member of their "Chapters Club", which gets me 10% discounts on most purchases, but I never carry the card with me because I usually order online. Incredibly, when I went up to the till, they had no way to look my account up. They have no method to look up a customer account unless that customer has the card with them! They have no connection to



In a similar vein, I have also had trouble at some Chapters' outlets for a slightly different reason. I no longer carry a full wallet with me - all I have in my EBase wallet is one credit card, my driving licence and my debit card. Everything else I carry in eWallet (much more secure).

Most of the time, stores will accept you giving them the number from a card (AirMiles, etc) but one Chapters outlet refused this - the local manager's policy was that you had to produce the actual card. Given that the card has no other built-in security measures and is only a memory aid for providing the membership number, I was tempted to challenge the legality of his refusal. However, apparently these stores are more or less autonomous and the manager does not have to accept a card if he does not want to! (Don't remember that little clause in the membership agreement)

I pointed out that I had no intention of returning to the previous state of having a wallet bulging with plastic cards and have since refused to shop there. I believe that his is one of the outlets that is going to be closed down when Indigo cuts back on the number of stores after their merger/takeover of Chapters.

[CharlesWilcox]

If you think rebate redemption rates are low, look at the percentage of people that turn out to vote in this country (USA). :oops:

Sorry, I didn't mean to post twice...... I wish I could vote twice... :wink:

[Rob Borek]

Jason: you can specify to receive the $5 coupons for Chapters Online when you fill out the application/renewal (at least I did when I renewed in November/December).

[leximaea]

Interesting thread, couple of thoughts.

Companies that do not have a customer lookup function or integration with web sites or customer databases are probably NOT out to get the consumer, but are probably working with outdated technology behind the scenes. The bigger the company, the slower things are to be 'state of the art' and the higher the possibility that interconnectivity does not exist. I don't work for FORD, but I've heard that they have multiple divisions/departments, and they all do their own thing. Effectively, the right hand knows not what the left hand is doing. Customers pay the price with their time and energy. Call this number to do one thing, call another number to do something else.

VOTE WITH YOUR POCKETBOOK (thought i was going to say pocket pc didnt cha? :wink: ) Be sure the MANAGER of your retail center knows why you won't buy from that store anymore. The kid at the counter could care less, but the manager should be a bit concerned about losing customers. I won't go to any blockbuster again because they charged me $12 for a late return that was returned on time. They were willing to lower the 'fee' to $6. And so for a measley $6, they have lost all my business forever. Seems like a high price to pay.

If you don't like rebates, VOTE WITH YOUR POCKETBOOK, but tell the company/manufacturer why. Buy a different product and tell them why you didn't buy theirs.

It may seem like a smalll effort - change the world one consumer at a time!