"Fight the Power" Slogan Growing Weak, Even for Microsoft Employees

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.shahine.com/omar/CommentView,guid,4cfb854a-f710-4bb8-a3b0-773fcc2c212e.aspx' target='_blank'>http://www.shahine.com/omar/CommentView,guid,4cfb854a-f710-4bb8-a3b0-773fcc2c212e.aspx</a><br /><br /></div><i>"Here is the deal. For over a year now I’ve been trying to look for a device that is > the iPod. In that time Apple has constantly moved the needle forward in a number of areas. We are still far behind, and in all likelihood, when we catch up, Apple will have something like this...I’m beginning to change my mind about things. Even though we have a great eco system for music stores etc, the reality is that our OEM partners are never ever going to create a product like the iPod. They are simply no match for the iPod Dock Connector, which as generated an ecosystem of hardware that’s probably more lucrative than the online music business."</i><br /><br />This post was made by a Microsoft employee who, like many people I know, are trying to avoid going the iPod route. Everyone seems to have a different reason, but this post and the follow-up comments definitely echoed things I've heard on the topic before. I have a Creative Zen Vision:M and while it's not perfect, I really enjoy using it and have no serious complaints about it. On the other hand, my family and I bought my father an iPod Nano for Christmas a few months ago, and while the hardware was definitely impressive, using iTunes was a new experience in how much software can suck. It was just a colossal disaster in terms of me making it do what I wanted (import MP3s that I had previously ripped) - there was only one way, the Apple way, and if you don't want to do it their way you're utterly out of luck.

[ctmagnus]

My previous device was a Creative - Nomad Jukebox 3, but I didn't use the software it shipped with. I used Notmad Explorer (http://www.redchairsoftware.com/) instead. But when I switched to a 60GB iPod Video *in black* ;) a month ago, all I had to do was drag the MP3s I had had on the NJB3 from my backup CDs into a directory on my D: drive, tell iTunes to look there for my audio files instead of the default directory, and sync.

The switch was surprisingly simple.

[Mr. MacinTiger]

Are you talking about the Win version of iTunes? If so, I can believe that it is troublesome for sure. Apple has not had the best record of making software for Win systems (uuhghghgh Quicktime, anyone?)...I have not used the Win version of iTunes, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't work like you want it to.

The Mac version on the other hand, I can speak to. It's never given me any problems so far...

[Jason Dunn]

Are you talking about the Win version of iTunes? If so, I can believe that it is troublesome for sure.

Yes, it was on Windows. But I somehow doubt it's any different on the Mac - the problem was that I had a CD full of MP3s that I had ripped from my dad's CDs and I couldn't find ANY way of importing them! I tried dropping them into the folder that iTunes was monitoring, no dice. I tried a few options under the FILE menu (I don't recall the names right now) and none worked. It was SO frustrating, I was stunned that Apple wouldn't allow something so simple to be obvious. I'm sure there was a way to do it, but I couldn't find it... :?

[ojlittle]

I've been using iTunes / iPOD combo for 2 or 3 years and as far as I can remember importing files has been the same and easy...

File - Add File To Library OR
File - Add Folder To Library

OR

Drag and drop from your harddrive or CD directly into the iTunes library. If it is set to do so, it will automatically sort &amp; copy those files into your iTunes music directory. If it's not set to do so it will leave the files as is.

Can't get much easier.

[Phronetix]

Hmmm... Jason, this just doesn't sound right. Basically, there should have been two steps to what you wanted to accomplish: copy the mp3 files to the proper folder, then from within iTunes you select [Add to Library]. Done.

I've imported CD's full of ripped mp3's too, and that is all that needed doing.

Did you check the Apple site's iPod/iTunes support page (http://www.apple.com/support/ipod/)?

[Phoenix]

I use the Windows version, and although every piece of software isn't without its flaws, I have to completely disagree about iTunes "sucking". iTunes is one of the simplest and most effective pieces of software a person could use. It's one of the biggest reasons the iPod is so successful.

So I, too, am surprised that you weren't able to get your songs imported. Apple support would indeed be the best place to start.

[Jeremy Charette]

Ditto the above comments. While I agree that iTunes may not be intuitive at first, once you get the hang of it, it's at least as easy to use as anything else I've tried, and IMO the best I've seen so far. The integration with the iTunes music store is a key for me.

But then, as Jason likes to say, I've been drinking the Kool Aid. :wink:

[Jason Dunn]

Ok, it looks like I stirred the pot a little with this post. Since I have to defend myself here, I've just replicated the scenario: I have a virgin Windows XP SP2 box, fully patched, nothing else on it. I've installed the iTunes + Quicktime bundle. I have a CD with two folders, each folder is an album ripped to MP3 format.

I've been using iTunes / iPOD combo for 2 or 3 years and as far as I can remember importing files has been the same and easy...
File - Add File To Library OR
File - Add Folder To Library

Both of those copy SHORTCUTS from the CD into the library. Neither option actually imports the files themselves. So as soon as I eject the CD those files in the library are unplayable. Why doesn't it copy them from the CD? What possible reason would there be for someone to add items from an optical disc and have to keep that disc in the drive to play the songs? The menu items should say "Add File Shortcut to Library" and "Add Folder Shortcut to Library". How can you possibly call that easy?

Drag and drop from your harddrive or CD directly into the iTunes library. If it is set to do so, it will automatically sort &amp; copy those files into your iTunes music directory. If it's not set to do so it will leave the files as is. Can't get much easier.

Ok, I've just tried that. It only copies the shortcuts - it does NOT copy the files. Same results as above. Now I'm drilling down...EDIT > PREFERENCES > ADVANCED > GENERAL > COPY FILES TO ITUNES MUSIC FOLDER WHEN ADDING TO LIBRARY. Bingo, that did the trick.

But can you honestly tell me that as a first-time iTunes user I should have been expected to find that option? I remember poking around in the options, but I obviously didn't see that checkbox. If anyone is trying to claim that the default functionality of iTunes is correct, then you're utterly blinded by bias. I realize that this functionality matches the way Mac OSX works - I believe that if you do the same thing (drag and drop a file from a CD) it will create a shortcut rather than copy the file by default. So maybe this behaviour makes sense to the Mac owners, but as a Windows user, it's definitely not the way I was expecting things to work.

[Jason Dunn]

Hmmm... Jason, this just doesn't sound right. Basically, there should have been two steps to what you wanted to accomplish: copy the mp3 files to the proper folder, then from within iTunes you select [Add to Library]. Done.

That's one thing I tried, sort of. When I couldn't get the FILE > IMPORT to work (see my above post), I thought "Ok, if I just copy the files over and drop them into the iTunes library folder, it should scan the folder and see the files, right?" So I've just tried that again - I copied over a folder of MP3s and dropped it into the My Music > iTunes > iTunes Music folder. Then I loaded up iTunes and...nothing. My music isn't there. That's when I gave up at my dad's house, threw away the CD, and started to re-rip from scratch.

Today I tried IMPORT (sounds logical, right?) but it wouldn't let me select more than one file at a time (no CONTROL+A, no SHIFT+click, etc.). Then I tried File > Add Folder to Library, and selected the folder that's already inside the iTunes music folder...and now it's working properly, I can see the music tracks.

People, seriously, can you honestly tell me that iTunes shouldn't be scanning it's music folder, looking for new music? I'm sure it's a very common scenario for someone to download music outside of iTunes then drop the songs into the iTunes music folder.

I realize it's incredibly uncool for me to criticize the iPod or iTunes, but I think some of you are blinded by the light of reality distortion eminating from your iPod and/or Mac. iTunes is no more intuitive to use than Windows Media Player 10, and in my case it's actually less intuitive. There are definitely things I like about it - the library function is nice and fast, though I wish there was a way to drill down into genre, artist, etc. Maybe I'm missing something but it looks like the only way to sort your music is in a giant blob of "Library". How well does iTunes handle large libraries, say 10,000 tracks?

My overall take of using iTunes is the same as using a Mac: if you do it the Apple way (rip CDs within iTunes, download songs from iTunes), things are blissfully simple and easy. If you try to do it your own way, things are incredibly painful and frustrating. :?

[klinux]

Hmm, I use iTunes on both Windows and OS X and am not encountering the problems you are seening either. In fact, it seems like few people are as well. I have never ever seen shortcuts getting added and this is with using iTunes since 1.0. I am not zealot either - having used WMP since it was just WAV player!

In any case, to add music to iTunes - I would argue dropping the files on the application rather than scanning a folder is more intuitive.

While I don't think I have 10K tracks, I do think I have a decent library (somewhere between 50 and 100 GB) and iTunes handle it fine. Moreover, I can count on Apple continuously adding new features (and unfortunately new restrictions as well) to its application, unlike WMP.

Furthermore I do not think it is "uncool" per se but calling people "blinded by the light of reality distortion" with their choice of music would be like accusing you of being a Windows zealot who cannot get over your Apple bias. :?

I hate to say it but are you sure there is no "user issue"?

[Jason Dunn]

I have never ever seen shortcuts getting added and this is with using iTunes since 1.0.

So you're saying if you burn a CD with MP3s and you do what I did - FILE > IMPORT FOLDER, you don't get shortcuts? I've seen that on two different machines...so if you're NOT seeing that on a Windows XP machine, what ARE you seeing? If you're seeing the files copy over rather than shortcuts, then you've changed the option that I didn't know about.

In any case, to add music to iTunes - I would argue dropping the files on the application rather than scanning a folder is more intuitive.

I agree with you completely - dragging and dropping into the app is more intuitive, which is why I tried that first...and only got the shortcuts.

Moreover, I can count on Apple continuously adding new features (and unfortunately new restrictions as well) to its application, unlike WMP.

I won't argue with that - it SUCKS that WMP is so infrequently updated. :-(

Furthermore I do not think it is "uncool" per se but calling people "blinded by the light of reality distortion" with their choice of music would be like accusing you of being a Windows zealot who cannot get over your Apple bias. :?

No, no, not the choice (I'm all for choice), it was the defensive of iTunes as being some sort of "perfect" application that's "easy" to figure out. Every person responding in this thread was all saying the same thing "It's easy. What's your problem?" My first-time experience with it was anything but easy.

I hate to say it but are you sure there is no "user issue"?

That's always a possibility, but in my posts I described *exactly* what I did, so if someone things I did something "wrong" I'd love to hear it.

[Mr. MacinTiger]

Ok...I just duplicated your set-up, Jason, but on my Mac mini instead of a Win system. Dragging the folders of ripped music from the disc onto iTunes, imported the songs into the iTunes library correctly...

My next experiment will be installing iTunes for Windows on my Win 2000 image in Virtual PC and then dragging the folders from the disc into iTunes there. Will be interested to see how that works...

Just a little bit of data from the Mac end of things for this discussion.

[Jason Dunn]

Dragging the folders of ripped music from the disc onto iTunes, imported the songs into the iTunes library correctly...

Hmm. And this is a fresh install of iTunes on a Mac that has never had iTunes installed before? What's EDIT > PREFERENCES > ADVANCED > GENERAL > COPY FILES TO ITUNES MUSIC FOLDER WHEN ADDING TO LIBRARY set at? Is the box checked off?

My next experiment will be installing iTunes for Windows on my Win 2000 image in Virtual PC and then dragging the folders from the disc into iTunes there.

Cool, thanks for checking that out. Check the same setting as above if you can...

[Phronetix]

There are definitely things I like about it - the library function is nice and fast, though I wish there was a way to drill down into genre, artist, etc. Maybe I'm missing something but it looks like the only way to sort your music is in a giant blob of "Library". How well does iTunes handle large libraries, say 10,000 tracks?

Hey Jason, I wonder if you don't have the 'browser' active. It's Cntrl-B, I presume, as it's Cmnd-B for me. Or toggle the browser in the [Edit] menu. This makes the library easier to manage. Have you experimented with Smart playlists at all? The menu bar is also helpful as well, and can be toggled through the [Edit] menu.

You have me wishing I had a PC lying around so I could see iTunes for Windows. I'd always thought it was nearly identical. Then again, look at Word... it's a different-looking creature on the Mac.

[Jason Dunn]

Hey Jason, I wonder if you don't have the 'browser' active. It's Cntrl-B, I presume, as it's Cmnd-B for me.

Aha, that does make it easier! I thought I'd seen something like that in iTunes before, but I didn't have any idea how to turn it on. In the Windows world, if there's an option for the library, you'd be able to right-click on the library and have "Show Browser" as an option. Or a VIEW menu up top with different views. Putting the Browser under the EDIT menu doesn't sync with my Windows-based brain, so I never would have looked there. But now I know, thanks! :-)

[freiberghk]

One other way to quickly get to the Browser... there is a button in the top right corner of iTunes (directly under the windows standard buttons of minimize, maximize, and close) that looks like an eyeball and is labeled with the word 'Browse'.

I'd agree that it is not entirely intuitive to other windows programs... as this same button becomes a 'Burn Disc' button when you are inside of a playlist instead of the Library. (as listed under the 'Source' section along the far left of the program)

I have 53k songs in my library, and almost always exit out of MCE and use iTunes when playing music streaming from the home server. I absolutely dread the load times from within MCE!!! although it's also a pain to have to switch over to keyboard mouse. Actually, the MCE remote buttons for Play and Stop work with iTunes... but if i want to change Artist, Playlist, etc... I gotta reach for a mouse.

[Janak Parekh]

My overall take of using iTunes is the same as using a Mac: if you do it the Apple way (rip CDs within iTunes, download songs from iTunes), things are blissfully simple and easy. If you try to do it your own way, things are incredibly painful and frustrating. :?
I don't know about this. I think it's because you're more attuned to using WMP and know its idiosyncratic behavior. For this iTunes user, WMP10 is the ultimate exercise in unintuitiveness, and I was ready to throw it out the window several times when playing with Janus DRM and Pocket PC sync. If I don't do things the exact right way, I get a horrible, horrible syncing experience. I took extensive notes which I'll compile into a Janus post one day.

As for dragging music into iTunes, you'd be surprised -- 99% of iTunes users who I know add music to iTunes once (their P2P stuff), and then simply rip or buy music. iTunes starts up with a wizard the first time that makes that one-time add trivial. Also, I get the feeling that the "add to library metaphor" mimics Winamp &amp; co. to make it easier for that crowd (which, until a few years ago, was much larger than WMP) -- Winamp didn't copy music around.

--janak

[Jason Dunn]

I have 53k songs in my library, and almost always exit out of MCE and use iTunes when playing music streaming from the home server. I absolutely dread the load times from within MCE!!!

I 100% agree there - WMP10 is completely lame and slow with large libraries, They FINALLY fixed this in WMP11, but it's sad that it took them that long to fix it (and it's still not out yet...).