06-22-2004, 09:00 PM
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Contributing Editor Emeritus
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,228
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Why The Clie Didn't Make It In The US
http://www.engadget.com/entry/8828248613747783/
"Over at Brighthand, Larry Becker tries to tackle the real reasons for why Sony is ditching out of the PDA market here in the States. Their biggest mistake he says? A misunderstanding of the biggest difference between American and Japanese consumers: the Japanese actually read the manual after the buy something, whereas Americans (and we�re as guilty of this as anyone) tend to play first and ask questions later and then get frustrated if things aren't completely intuitive."
I think this played a part in Sony's exit of the PDA market in the US, and Europe I suppose, but the author doesn't comment on that. However, there were other factors as well. You know though, if this supposed complexity was the real problem, it really shoots a hole in the "Windows Mobile devices are too complex" theory as their market share has been climbing. :wink: We have known for quite sometime that that was a bogus argument.
� Sony forced people to use the Memory Stick slot, which kept you from using a wider range of SD and SDIO cards on the market. Not that most PalmOS devices can use SDIO anyway, as Sandisk will attest to in their SDIO WiFi issues. General consumers may not have understood the implications, but power users did, and power users are influencers. Irrespective of the OS, I always recommended against Sony if the user was going to be doing any advanced mobile computing, like WiFi.
� Sony burned existing customers by telling them the 128MB MS cards would grow in the future, only to replace it with MS Pro, which didn't work in existing devices.
� Sony played nasty with their proprietary implementation of the Compact Flash slot for their WiFi card, blocking the CF slot for use with dozens and dozens of cheap CF memory cards and IO devices.
� The PalmOS is so open as to create confusion. They have almost no standards compared to Windows Mobile, which causes program compatibility issues, hardware compatibility, and end user confusion. On a Pocket PC, email is Inbox, addresses are in Contacts, etc. and all of that works the same way on dozens of OEM devices. In Palm, email can be one of several email apps, or missing altogether. Addresses can be different on various device. There is no question Sony pushed the PalmOS to the limit, but only power users got it. I've seen people move from a Palm V or M515 to a newer Clie and be utterly lost on the new features, and some existing features totally different.
� PalmOS overall has lost share to Windows Mobile because of broader issues too. Full multitasking, ease of using memory cards, a plethora of CF and SD/SDIO devices that, almost universally, work on any device that has the right slot. The iPAQ 2215 and Dell Axim X5 use the same driver for the Socket WiFi card for example, as do any other CF enabled device. The only caveat is the operating system version. Sony was the trailing PalmOS maker, and their decline was sufficient to have Sony just walk away.
It isn't any one thing, or maybe not even two or three things, but the things listed above, the finances of it (no one thinks Sony ever made a penny off of any individual Clie model) and perhaps a few things I missed led to their exit.
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06-22-2004, 09:16 PM
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Swami
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,303
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Re: Why The Clie Didn't Make In The US
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Originally Posted by Ed Hansberry
� Sony forced people to use the Memory Stick slot, which kept you from using a wider range of SD and SDIO cards on the market. Not that most PalmOS devices can use SDIO anyway, as Sandisk will attest to in their SDIO WiFi issues. General consumers may not have understood the implications, but power users did, and power users are influencers. Irrespective of the OS, I always recommended against Sony if the user was going to be doing any advanced mobile computing, like WiFi.
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This was the biggest strike against Sony for me. Having a proprietary storage card format meant that it was a complete no-no. I folks HAD to have a PalmOS PDA I would always point them toward PalmOne. At least the SD card could be used with cameras etc.
I really don't buy the BAH complexity argument either, though it does remind me of a similar tale. If a European doesn't understand someone, he asks 'What's wrong with me?' If an American doesn't understand someone he asks 'What's wrong with him?' :lol: On that basis I'm much more US than European minded. :wink:
I would agree that with Sony it was death by many medium cuts, rather than one 'killer blow'. Still, it would be nice to see them back someday - as long as they dropped the memory stick and proprietary mindedness. 
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06-22-2004, 09:19 PM
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Intellectual
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 172
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Quote:
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� Sony burned existing customers by telling them the 128MB MS cards would grow in the future, only to replace it with MS Pro, which didn't work in existing devices.
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That is what personally broke this camels back...when I couldn't use a 256MB MS card in my fairly new (at the time) T665...I ebay'd it, gave Sony a 1 finger salute, and never looked at their products again. It was bad enough that their memory was expensive, it was ridiculous for them to think I'd buy another Clie and an even more expensive MS Pro for it... :byebye: Sony.
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06-22-2004, 09:21 PM
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Ponderer
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 50
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Re: Why The Clie Didn't Make In The US
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Originally Posted by Jonathon Watkins
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Originally Posted by Ed Hansberry
� Sony forced people to use the Memory Stick slot, which kept you from using a wider range of SD and SDIO cards on the market. Not that most PalmOS devices can use SDIO anyway, as Sandisk will attest to in their SDIO WiFi issues. General consumers may not have understood the implications, but power users did, and power users are influencers. Irrespective of the OS, I always recommended against Sony if the user was going to be doing any advanced mobile computing, like WiFi.
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This was the biggest strike against Sony for me. Having a proprietary storage card format meant that it was a complete no-no. I folks HAD to have a PalmOS PDA I would always point them toward PalmOne. At least the SD card could be used with cameras etc.
I really don't buy the BAH complexity argument either, though it does remind me of a similar tale. If a European doesn't understand someone, he asks 'What's wrong with me?' If an American doesn't understand someone he asks 'What's wrong with him?' :lol: On that basis I'm much more US than European minded. :wink:
I would agree that with Sony it was death by many medium cuts, rather than one 'killer blow'. Still, it would be nice to see them back someday - as long as they dropped the memory stick and proprietary mindedness. |
people I don't know why the hell are you complaining about memory stick ? there are other proprietary formats as rs-mmc, mini sd, t-flash etc.
memery stick is as proprietary as SD card is
btw did you know that the amount of sold SD and memory stick cards is almost the same ?
and guess why? because sony is the leader in digital photography :-)
and why would company with such a successful product put there SD cards ?
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06-22-2004, 09:31 PM
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Swami
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,303
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Re: Why The Clie Didn't Make In The US
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Originally Posted by orol
people I don't know why the hell are you complaining about memory stick ? there are other proprietary formats as rs-mmc, mini sd, t-flash etc. memery stick is as proprietary as SD card is?
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Yes and the other proprietary formats are bad for the market as well. There are numerous recent PPC posts about new storage memory formats that manufactures are using to try to lock folks into propitiatory formats. Only Sony themselves make (and mostly use) memory sticks and they have low capacities and are expensive.
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Originally Posted by orol
btw did you know that the amount of sold SD and memory stick cards is almost the same ?
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Last I heard, SD Cards had 23% of the market and were rapidly overtaking Memory Cards. Of course, that's old data and I guess that SD and CF have an even larger share at the moment.
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Originally Posted by orol
and guess why? because sony is the leader in digital photography :-)and why would company with such a successful product put there SD cards ?
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Sony, the leader? :lol: I think Canon and Nikon make have something to say about that. :wink: Why do you think that Sony put a CF slot on it's latest camera, the SSCD 828?
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06-22-2004, 10:29 PM
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Mystic
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,911
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Re: Why The Clie Didn't Make It In The US
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Originally Posted by Ed Hansberry
Japanese actually read the manual after the buy something, whereas Americans (and we�re as guilty of this as anyone) tend to play first and ask questions later and then get frustrated if things aren't completely intuitive."
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I've found that people only read the manual if they cannot get it to work, unless you're my Mom and reads it cover to cover and then uses it.
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06-22-2004, 10:36 PM
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Mystic
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,911
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Quote:
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It's not unusual to see people wearing a PDA on a lanyard around their neck in Japan
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Nerd!
PS, Jason we need a nerd emoticon
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06-22-2004, 10:39 PM
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Ponderer
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 50
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Re: Why The Clie Didn't Make In The US
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Originally Posted by Jonathon Watkins
Only Sony themselves make (and mostly use) memory sticks and they have low capacities and are expensive.
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what? low capacities ? over a year and half ago there was 1 GB ms pro, whereas SD maxed at 512MB. now there is over a half year 2gb ms pro out and you can barely find 1gb SD card!
plus 1 GB ms pro are cheaper then 1 GB SD cards
btw. there isn't much price difference between SD & MS cards
and last year were 512 MB MSs cheaper then 512 MB SD cards :-)
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Originally Posted by Jonathon Watkins
Last I heard, SD Cards had 23% of the market and were rapidly overtaking Memory Cards. Of course, that's old data and I guess that SD and CF have an even larger share at the moment. |
the thing is that MS captured 22% of the world wide market :-)
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Originally Posted by Jonathon Watkins
Sony, the leader? :lol: I think Canon and Nikon make have something to say about that. :wink: Why do you think that Sony put a CF slot on it's latest camera, the SSCD 828? |
well sony put CF even in clies. but the leader in digicams is sony with around 26% of marketshare, followed by conan with around 15% and nikon with about 11%
btw. the only difference in SD & MS to me is that patents to SD holds matsu****a (e.g. panasonic, technics ..) and to MS it's sony. that's all :-)
only CF & MMC are non-proprietary formats actually, whereas sandisk owns several patents toward CF cards
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06-22-2004, 10:53 PM
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Pontificator
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,055
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Re: Why The Clie Didn't Make In The US
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Originally Posted by orol
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Originally Posted by Jonathon Watkins
Last I heard, SD Cards had 23% of the market and were rapidly overtaking Memory Cards. Of course, that's old data and I guess that SD and CF have an even larger share at the moment. |
the thing is that MS captured 22% of the world wide market :-) |
Yes, but think about how long Memory Stick has been out for. The format was introduced in 1998, and in 6 years, it's captured 22% of the market. SD, on the other hand, has been around for 3 years and already has 23%.
My digital camera is a Sony, which I bought in 2002. I regret buying it to this day.... I bought the camera thinking that Memory Stick would grow soon to 256MB+. Unfortunately, MS never got past 128MB (except for the 256MB "switch" model from Lexar), and instead Sony switched over to a completely new format, MS Pro. Sony had originally promised that Memory Stick would hit 1GB one day. That never happened.
I don't think I'll ever buy another proprietary format ever again.
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06-22-2004, 11:07 PM
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Theorist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 301
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Re: Why The Clie Didn't Make In The US
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Originally Posted by orol
...are you complaining about memory stick ?
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I too am an unabashed MemoryStick foe. Honestly, I'm not trying to be snitty on this point, but you need to recognize just how extreme Sony was in their restrictions on the format.
Specifically, notice how Sony NEVER released a true mp3 player that used Memory Stick, the ONLY put out their "MagicGate ATRAC-3" wierd audio format. They tried to market this a a superior codec, but anyone even remotely familiar with the issue understood this had nothing to do with compression and everything to do with Digital Rights Management. Even more importantly, notice how Sony REFUSED to license ANY third-party OEM to make an MP3 player with Memory Stick. To the best of my knowledge, they never permitted anyone ever to make any Memory Stick portable music player that could read any format other than ATRAC-3.
Sure, Sony has every right to have a vision where the floppy disk is replaced by a Memory Stick card. They even have every right to "dream big" and imagine that world is where everyone is moving from Sony cameras to Sony desktops to Sony walkman devices all on Sony MS. But that dream is incredibly unrealistic.
Any company releasing a storage format that also intends to make OEM's play "Mommy may I?" with the kinds of devices they are ALLOWED to create that use it is doomed in the real world. Just ask DataPlay.
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