07-21-2003, 11:00 PM
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Executive Editor
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 29,160
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The Real Cost of Toshiba Not Issuing a Windows Mobile 2003 Upgrade
The discussion in this thread is continuing, but after posting a lengthy response there, I felt it might be appropriate for the front page of this site. The upgrade scenario has long been a thorn in my site - with every generation of Windows CE-based devices, starting way back in the HPC days, there have always been OEMs who value their customers and issue upgrades, and those that do not. My friend David made this point in the above discussion thread, and I had a few things to say about it:
"Of course it's all about money! These companies are in business to make money for their stock holders, not to spend money on projects that won't give them a return. I know that sounds harsh, but for them to do otherwise would be a violation of their duties to their stockholders."
"Ah, but David, you're ignoring that fact that sometimes a company will chose to lose money on a move if the ancillary effect is beneficial in the long run. Let's say for example that Toshiba were to lose $1 million dollars on releasing this upgrade - let's say that their projections showed that not enough people would buy the upgrade, and the $1 million was the difference between their development & distribution costs and the profit they make when "x" users did buy the upgrade.
Now let's look at the costs of not providing this upgrade:
� Negative press in the mainstream media, hurting both Toshiba Pocket PC sales and other Toshiba products.
� Negative press from enthusiast sites like this one, hurting both Toshiba Pocket PC sales and other Toshiba products. I will personally never buy another Toshiba Pocket PC for a long time to come, nor will I recommend them to anyone else. I even tried to avoid buying a Toshiba laptop for my church lately, but ultimately I couldn't find anything else at that feature/price point. I'm looking at getting a high-end laptop for myself, and will not buy a Toshiba laptop out of principle.
� Negative impact from individual users. I've read many comments in these forums from people who work in the IT field, and have purchasing power in their enterprises, who have said that they will not purchase ANY Toshiba products any more, and are looking at alternative suppliers.
I firmly believe that the Toshiba brand and sales will take more punishment from this move than the money it would have taken them to release the upgrade.
It's short-sighted of Toshiba, and smacks of a lack of understanding of the North American market. From what I understand, in Japan it's very common to own a device for under a year, then sell it and get something new. The turnover rate is much higher over there, so I have a feeling Toshiba doesn't grasp the North American trait of using something until it stops working."
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07-21-2003, 11:16 PM
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Sage
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 740
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Re: The Real Cost of Toshiba Not Issuing a Windows Mobile 2003 Upgrade
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jason Dunn
...It's short-sighted of Toshiba, and smacks of a lack of understanding of the North American market..."
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I disagree. I think Toshiba DOES understand this market; but is making a conscious choice not to offer the upgrade for some or most the reasons you mention.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jason Dunn
...From what I understand, in Japan it's very common to own a device for under a year, then sell it and get something new. The turnover rate is much higher over there, so I have a feeling Toshiba doesn't grasp the North American trait of using something until it stops working."
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I've done this many times and have found it to be a serious money loser. I never gain back all of the $$ I spend on devices in the resale. I got only $165 for my e310 with 128MB of RAM. That's pathetic! However, as all of my freelancing is set up as a business for tax purposes, I show a loss at the end of the year. I do get somewhat of a tax break as a result, but it doesn't make up the difference.
Also, I again disagree with the last sentence in the second quote. I think Toshiba does understand that the markets are different. I think they know exactly how the US market uses and discards hardware. I think they have chosen to ignore this particular demand.
As a result, I also will not buy any product from Toshiba for quite a long time...
Kind Regards,
Christopher Spera
__________________
Kind Regards,
Christopher Spera
Gear Diary Review Team
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07-21-2003, 11:16 PM
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Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 361
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Brilliant summary. It's true about the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality for the average consumer who walks into an electronics store to buy a PDA, not entirely sure they even need one in the first place. Hey, do Canadians feel the same way?
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07-21-2003, 11:27 PM
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Ponderer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 82
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This is true, I have a 3870 and am looking forward to the upgrade release date, it wont make HP much money but it will guarentee that I will buy another HP device when I buy a new device in the end, although it wont be the 19 series :O
Toshiba has lost millions in future sales from this bad marketing choice, if it was me I would give away the upgrade and write the whole cost off as advertising and my rep would be awsome.
Cheers.
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07-21-2003, 11:47 PM
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Sage
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 740
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warwick
...if it was me I would give away the upgrade and write the whole cost off as advertising and my rep would be awsome.
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I disagree. This is a step; but its not the only step. Anything Toshiba does to correct this situation should also include a WRITTEN apology to all of their users (registered and unregistered).
Both of these would be a start; but they've got farther to go than that to undo all of the bad press and bad feelings they've caused in the US Market...
Just my opinion.
Kind Regards,
Christopher Spera
__________________
Kind Regards,
Christopher Spera
Gear Diary Review Team
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07-22-2003, 12:15 AM
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Pupil
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 16
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Jason,
I have to agree with you that Toshiba is making a mistake. It does seem somewhat shortsighted to me, as well.
Likewise, I am a bit peeved about HP's lack of response on an upgrade for the iPaq 1910 which I purchased a short 5 months ago. Why does this not seem to be getting the legs that the Toshiba issue has? There was mention of an online petition, but I've not heard much since it's initial announcement.
When I saw the specs for the the new 1900 series HP iPaq's I thought they were very cool, and began scheming as to how I could talk my wife into letting me upgrade. But the fact that HP won't even work on upgrades for a very recent PDA caused me to stop...or maybe it was the ton of bricks hitting me on the head. Why would I want to buy an iPaq 1940 when HP won't even continue to support via upgrades an iPaq that isn't even a year old? Not to mention new models in the 1900 series with questionable screen quality.
And with that, I have decided not to give HP anymore of my money.
I do realize that there is no immediate return for a company, as has already been proffered. It is hard hard to justify the expense when you can't use metrics to prove the Return On Investment. Perhaps a consideration for the future might be a nominal fee for these upgrades, as though they were a "Plus!" pack?
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07-22-2003, 12:31 AM
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Pupil
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 23
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Re: The Real Cost of Toshiba Not Issuing a Windows Mobile 2003 Upgrade
It's short-sighted of Toshiba, and smacks of a lack of understanding of the North American market. From what I understand, in Japan it's very common to own a device for under a year, then sell it and get something new. The turnover rate is much higher over there, so I have a feeling Toshiba doesn't grasp the North American trait of using something until it stops working."[/quote]
This is the same Toshiba that sold the united states top secrets to the Russians about our Submarine Propeller systems, which we had them producing for us many years ago. They don't care if they have taken on the US and survived , about the fallout from the pocketpc.
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07-22-2003, 01:02 AM
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Thinker
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 351
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Glad I got rid of my Toshiba's
Last year I got a E310 and then soon a e740. I traded "down" to a HP568 which actually turned out to fit my requirements.
I learn the upgrade problem from owning a Casio a few years ago. I forgot which model it was, maybe the 105 series, but when the 115 came out the upgrade path was limited. I missed the opportunity to upgrade.. I think they offered a "trade-in scheme" not a real software upgrade.
In anycase, thats why I stayed away from the "unknown" brands such as NEC, Casio and Sharp. They dont have a big PPC following so I figured I hedge my bets and stick with the mainstream. Now Toshiba joins their ranks. I am glad I dont have Toshiba products.
I'm no HP lover either - I'm having an interesting time with my HP laptop and support but thats another story... 
B
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07-22-2003, 01:17 AM
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Pupil
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 14
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Sorry for the long post, but here goes (by the way, I'm from Vancouver, B.C., Canada):
In my frustration with this Toshiba Pocket PC issue, I was browsing a flyer from the place I originally purchased my Toshiba e330 (and my e310, which my wife now owns), and noticed that they were selling the e350 now for $50 *less* than what I spent just over 3 months ago on my e330 at the same store.
I went back to my retailer, a fairly large electronics retailer up here in Western Canada, and politely asked to exchange my e330 for an e350. At first I was told "it's not possible". I was polite, listened to their reasons, but would not go away. Eventually the two salesmen on staff referred me to the store's assistant manager in charge of electronics, who would be in the next day.
The next day, I visited the manager, and discussed my issue with him. He acknowledged that it was a very unfortunate situation, but there was nothing he could do. Interestingly, he informed me that he himself purchased a Toshiba e740 Pocket PC exactly five days before Windows Mobile 2003 was released, and due to the fact that he is an employee, his is not in a position to return it. So he completely understood my predicament, but there was nothing that he could do.
Again I was persistent, asking (politely, but repeatedly) to whom could I write a formal complaint letter? I explained that I understood it was not the retailer's fault that Toshiba had decided not to continue supporting my unit, but that the retailer does assume a level of responsibility to their customers when selling them products. I was told that there is a Purchase Protection policy at this retailer, however it extended only 30 days. I explained that although I could understand if the product I purchase dropped in price over a 3 month period, I could not understand a newer model being released in that period for less than what I spent.
Eventually, he told me that he would inquire with his boss about trying to get me a rebate. I had looked up what the e330 was selling for at other branches of this retailer (those that still had them in stock) and it was $100 less than what I purchased it for. I expected him to come back with an offer of $50 or maybe $100 to try to satisfy me. When he came back (more than 20 minutes later), he offered me $150. During the time I was waiting, I considered my options, and realized that a rebate would not satisfy me. However, this offer was much larger than I expected, and indicated to me that the retailer was admitting at least in a small way that they understood the situation was unfair.
I politely declined the rebate offer, and explained that I would only be satisfied with an exchange. The manager explained to me that he had argued my case to his boss, and this was the best that they were prepared to do. So I asked to speak to his boss. When he contacted her, he explained that he had offered me the $150, and that I had declined, preferring to hold out for an exchange. He also told her that I would like to speak with her. She did not speak with me, but instead informed him to give me the exchange. I was given a lecture about how this was "extremely unusual", etc., which was not unexpected.
I briefly contemplated asking for the $50 difference back between the price of the e330 and e350, but decided that I was fortunate as it was, and I shouldn't push matters. I couldn't help but be astonished when I was asked for my debit card so that I could be credited the difference; apparently, because it was processed as an exchange, the computer system automatically refunded the difference to me!
In the course of doing the paperwork for the exchange, I began chatting with the manager. Once the issue had been decided, he warmed up considerably, and we began discussing Pocket PC software, etc. We discussed this site, too.
Anyhow, during our conversation I mentioned that although I was happy to be receiving the exchange, that in future I would not be purchasing Toshiba products as I now know how they treat their customers. He said, to my amazement, that I should consider the position he is in. He said that although he would prefer not to, he must carry Toshiba Pocket PC's in his inventory. However, he REFUSES TO SELL THEM. If a customer comes in that is intent on purchasing a Toshiba model, he will do everything in his power to persuade them to go with a different manufacturer's model!
Now, consider how many people working in consumer electronics retail shops have purchased Toshiba Pocket PC's, and how many now feel burned by the company. Toshiba's digging their own grave, with respect to Pocket PC's. It's only a matter of time.
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07-22-2003, 01:48 AM
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Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 541
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I think the amount of bad press is exaggerated due to most people here's large involvement with the community sites. If you weren't in the community, you'd be hearing a lot less.
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