05-01-2003, 09:00 AM
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Editor Emeritus
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,060
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WiFi Way Up High?
My very most favourite (not) online news source, The Register, has an interesting article about a potential use of WiFi and PDAs in the wild blue yonder. Supposedly, Britannia Airlines will soon be issuing Cassiopeia PDAs to its cabin crews and eventually wirelessly linking them to each other and to an in-flight duty-free shop. You'll need to read the entire article to see all of the possible ways the devices might be used; more importantly, though, it reintroduces the discussion of whether wireless devices are really as much a danger to airline flight controls as we've been led to believe.
While you're at it, be sure to read the related editorial entitled Time To Challenge Airline Paranoia On Wireless. I know next to nothing about how radio waves do or do not interfere with each other or the inner workings of an airliner's navigation system. I do know, though, that whenever I fly I see a LOT of people breaking the "10,000 foot rule" and in all my travels I do not recall ever being in a single airline disaster.
I propose an experiment to settle the matter once and for all. I say we load up an airliner with a bunch of our favourite "test monkeys," like Washington DC bureaucrats, tax collectors, country western singers and proctologists. Then, we give them each a collection of mobile phones, notebook PCs and wireless PDAs, turn all the devices on and set the plane on a transatlantic flight.
Sure, if wireless interference really IS a problem, the losses would be significant. But isn't it worth the cost of a few PDAs to find out?
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05-01-2003, 10:28 AM
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Intellectual
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 245
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Well speaking from experience I have forgot (many times) to turn off my cell phone  ops: while flying a Cessna 172 and as you can read I'm still here 
To give everyone the skinny there is a slight possibility that the RF signals emitting can throw off the complex systmes that are used by the big boy carriers. But in reality the chance of it interrupting anything is > 1% of the time. The reason the FAA bans some devices is the chance that one day they will corrupt an A/C system and cause an accident. But in defense of us geeks more testing should be done from the part of the FAA :evil: But asking for testing from an agency that is still in the process of updating its (outdated) navigation systems that are 40 years old is like asking.. well you tell me :?:
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05-01-2003, 12:00 PM
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Theorist
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 307
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Well!
As a country/western-singing U.S. Congressman and amateur proctologist, I am offended.
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05-01-2003, 12:43 PM
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Sage
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 718
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Abba Zabba
Well speaking from experience I have forgot (many times) to turn off my cell phone ops: while flying a Cessna 172 and as you can read I'm still here
To give everyone the skinny there is a slight possibility that the RF signals emitting can throw off the complex systmes that are used by the big boy carriers. But in reality the chance of it interrupting anything is > 1% of the time. The reason the FAA bans some devices is the chance that one day they will corrupt an A/C system and cause an accident. But in defense of us geeks more testing should be done from the part of the FAA :evil: But asking for testing from an agency that is still in the process of updating its (outdated) navigation systems that are 40 years old is like asking.. well you tell me :?: |
Of course, the electronic systems of a 747 are a little more advanced than a Cessna's :mrgreen:
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05-01-2003, 01:06 PM
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Editor Emeritus
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,060
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Re: Well!
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Originally Posted by BugDude10
As a country/western-singing U.S. Congressman and amateur proctologist, I am offended.
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In that case, I apologize to all the members of the BCWSCP (Brotherhood of Country-Western Singing Congressional Proctologists).  . Now, if you'd said you were a tax collector, too, I would have been a bit suspicious.
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05-01-2003, 01:28 PM
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Neophyte
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 5
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FWIW, this thread points to a common misconception: although its commonly believed that the FAA bans airborne use of cellular telephones, in fact this ban comes from the FCC, not the FAA :!:
At the FAA's web site, http://www1.faa.gov/avr/afs/acs/ac91211a.pdf you can find Advisory Circular 91.21-1A: "Use of Portable Electronic Devices Aboard Aircraft."
Allowing the use of specific Personal Electronic Devices (PEDs) is the responsibility/right of the individual air carriers: "This rule permits use of specified PED�s and other devices that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not interfere with the safe operation of the aircraft in which it is operated."
There's a lot of text here 8O (sorry! I've underlined and highlighted to make it a little easier :mrgreen
"There are certain devices, which by their nature and design, transmit intentionally. These include cellular telephones, citizens band radios, remote control devices, etc. The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) typically licenses these devices as land mobile devices. The FCC currently prohibits the use and operation of cellular telephones while airborne. Its primary concern is that a cellular telephone, while used airborne, would have a much greater transmitting range than a land mobile unit. This could result in serious interference to transmissions at other cell locations since the system uses the same frequency several times within a market. Since a cellular mobile telephone unit is capable of operating on all assignable cellular frequencies, serious interference may also occur to cellular systems in adjacent markets. The FAA supports this airborne restriction for reasons of potential interference to critical aircraft systems. Currently, the FAA does not prohibit use of cellular telephones in aircraft while on the ground if the operator has determined that they will not interfere with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which they are to be used. An example might be their use at the gate or during an extended wait on the ground, while awaiting a gate, when specifically authorized by the captain. A cellular telephone will not be authorized for use while the aircraft is being taxied for departure after leaving the gate. The unit will be turned off and properly stowed, otherwise it is possible that a signal from a ground cell could activate it. Whatever procedures an operator elects to adopt should be clearly spelled out in oral departure briefings and by written material provided to each passenger to avoid passenger confusion."
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05-01-2003, 01:38 PM
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Intellectual
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 209
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After all of this, I'm left wondering someting that none of you have mentioned.
What Cassiopeia are they going to issue? The E200? Something new? the new oe we've seen scattered pictures of?
Hmmm???
:?
__________________
And there you are.
I was just thinking, "What could take this headache I have over that edge to a full blown migrane?"
And there you are.
- Dr. Cox, Scrubs
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05-01-2003, 01:46 PM
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Intellectual
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 124
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmhisey
FWIW, this thread points to a common misconception: although its commonly believed that the FAA bans airborne use of cellular telephones, in fact this ban comes from the FCC, not the FAA :!:
At the FAA's web site, http://www1.faa.gov/avr/afs/acs/ac91211a.pdf you can find Advisory Circular 91.21-1A: "Use of Portable Electronic Devices Aboard Aircraft."
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Thank goodness someone answered with the correct reason. One of those things that I find amusing...
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05-01-2003, 01:53 PM
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Pupil
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 12
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WiFi Way Up High?
I am a pilot on a Boeing 767. I have been flying this type of aircraft for 10 years. From what I have seen it is not the radio waves created by wireless devices that have caused any problems, I too have left my cell phone on once or twice. The only consequence would be a ringing phone on takeoff. No problem with landing because the battery would usually be dead from the continuous search by the phone during flight. I did hear a rumor of one pilot getting fired for answering his phone during takeoff while watching the other pilot fly, not a good idea.
The real problem that I have seen on this type of aircraft came during cruise altitude on the North Atlantic routes. We normally use ground radio navigation systems to update an internal ring laser gyros navigation system on the aircraft (very arcaic compared to some systems on some Cessnas). Over the North Atlantic we do not have the ground stations. Normally the internal system is very acurate by itself. Occasionally we will notice a deviation of a mile or two, which is very significant in the North Atlantic airspace. By trying to track down the problem it was observed by some pilots that electronic devices in use in the back of the plane seemed to be a common thread. After asking people to turn off the devices, the correct positon would return.
My favorite story involved a large deviation of the above type. After going back to the cabin to investigate, the pilot saw 5 young boys busily destroying allien invaders on their gameboys. The problem seems to be associated with radio waves created by small devices just being turned on and not to the radio waves broadcast for communication purposes.
Sidelight, expect to be allowed to use your cellphone upon landing, soon. You currently must wait until parked at the gate.
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05-01-2003, 01:54 PM
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Intellectual
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 238
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmhisey
The FCC currently prohibits the use and operation of cellular telephones while airborne. Its primary concern is that a cellular telephone, while used airborne, would have a much greater transmitting range than a land mobile unit. This could result in serious interference to transmissions at other cell locations since the system uses the same frequency several times within a market.
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In conversations with several flight attendants as well, there appears to be a quiet agreement between the airlines and the in-flight phone carriers. They ban the use of personal phones so that the in-flight phones (at a bajillion dollars a minute) must be used.
Sounds plausible to me. It's all about money!
Matt
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