03-10-2003, 04:00 AM
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Executive Editor
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 29,160
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Firewalls, Messenger, and VoIP Software - Oh the Horrors!
You know, I don't want to get off on a rant here [dim lights], but I have to get this off my chest. It staggers the imagination how badly big companies can screw up even the simplest of things.
Once again I find myself insanely frustrated with Microsoft and their software/hardware. :evil: Here's the short version: I have an MN-500 firewall/gateway device, which is touted as having a Universal Plug-n-Play firewall that dynamically opens up the correct ports for client-side apps that need access. Great in theory, works quite well most of the time. But I was unable to get file transfers working with a friend of mine. We were both using Windows Messenger 4.7, and he was behind a Linksys firewall. After months of struggling with this configuration, he went out and bought a Microsoft firewall/gateway (the MN-100). He also reformatted and installed XP Home, and I was on an install of XP only 24 hours old. We both had Messenger 4.7, UPnP firewalls, and tried to transfer a file. You'd think such an "out of the box" set up would work, right? No dice - no file transfers would occur, even though we confirmed that the correct port ranges were open.
We then bypassed our gateways, connected directly to the 'Net, sans firewall. The result? Perfect file transfers. I went behind my firewall, he stayed out in the open, and I was able to receive files from him, but not send. Augh! 8O I gave up and did something I very rarely do: called tech support. An hour later, we established that Windows Messenger 4.7 will cannot send files from behind a Microsoft firewall to another 4.7 user behind a Microsoft firewall. I upgraded to the much-reviled MSN Messenger 5.0, and I was able to send him files from behind my firewall. Huh? "Oh," says the tech "there are some problems with Messenger 4.7 not working properly behind a Microsoft firewall." Oh, ok, sure - I must have been naive to think that a Microsoft product would work well from behind a Microsoft firewall. Silly me. :roll:
Once we were both running MSN Messenger 5.0, each behind our respective firewalls, we were able to send and receive files without difficulty. Hooray! But as soon as he switched back to Trillian, he was unable to receive files from me. AUGH! :evil: So now he keeps MSN Messenger installed JUST for me, his one contact who needs send/receive file transfer access. How pointless is that? Ultimately that's a Trillian problem, but it underscores the complete mess that the instant messaging world is today. Nothing works with anything else!
Now we come to the really ugly part of the story: my pal and I play online games together (Diablo 2, Age of Mythology, Neverwinter Nights, etc.) and adding voice into the mix adds a great deal of fun. We've used a few different solutions, but for the past year we've been using Microsoft's free Game Voice 1.5 software. It integrates nicely with Windows Messenger, and works quite well. I installed it, fired it up, then tried to chat with my friend - only to have the buddy list window be blank. AUGH! :evil: After a bit more research, I discover that Game Voice 1.5 is a dead-end product. It's not compatible with MSN Messenger 5.0, and Microsoft has no plans to make it compatible. Grrr. MSN Messenger's voice chat functionality doesn't work through NAT firewalls.
Foiled at every turn! For the love of all things holy, what the HELL are the people at Microsoft thinking? The scenarios I described above seem quite mundane, yet the Microsoft solutions fail at every turn. Do they test their software before they ship it? If so, under what circumstances? Because it sure mustn't be "Person A wants to talk to Person B". Nooo, that would just be too CRAZY to even try, right?
Anyway, the point of this long rant is not only to make myself feel better, but also to ask a question: what voice chat software is out there that works well, especially over NAT-based firewalls?
Rant over, but I swear, if I ever encounter the Microsoft product managers responsible for these broken scenarios, I'll have some strong words to say to them.
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03-10-2003, 04:15 AM
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Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 332
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Ok, NAT is usually the problem in these sorts of situations. It just doesn't work very well for these sorts of things. I had the same problems sending files to my brother. I think that it's just the nature of the beast not necessarily a Microsoft thing.
I would also love to be able to make some Mac Zealot comment but unfortunately there are very few if any Voice Chat solutions for the mac which is a real pain. I would love to have a video chat with my brother but I can't.
Good Luck.
Daniel
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03-10-2003, 04:32 AM
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Mystic
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,608
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Daniel
Ok, NAT is usually the problem in these sorts of situations. It just doesn't work very well for these sorts of things. I had the same problems sending files to my brother. I think that it's just the nature of the beast not necessarily a Microsoft thing.
I would also love to be able to make some Mac Zealot comment but unfortunately there are very few if any Voice Chat solutions for the mac which is a real pain. I would love to have a video chat with my brother but I can't.
Good Luck.
Daniel
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Daniel, have a look at ivist. It has clients for Windows and OS X (beta)
http://www.ivisit.com/
__________________
27" iMac 3.06GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 8GB RAM
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iPhone 4S (16GB), AppleTV 2.0
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03-10-2003, 04:34 AM
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Pupil
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 14
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 @ Woes, I know the feeling.
IMHO as an ex-field service engineer, there are very few products which are pure plug and play. (Oh what an ideal world that would have been - but I would have been out of a job :? )
Messenger is a bit of a strange beast. I have encountered similar problems with file transfers and voice chat. An interesting recent discovery however, revealed that the gamevoice does not seem to appreciate certain Bluetooth stacks! This moreover seems to also affect the initiation of file transfers too.
In testing, we discovered that if the initiating party were to remove thier bluetooth adaptor, or disable it, voice and file transfers were fine. Throw a Wi-Fi network into the equation however, and Messenger can cause real headaches, even trying to just locate what is causing the problem.
NAT (Network Address Translation) doesn't always seem to pose a problem for everyone, and some setups with NAT and a firewall operate just fine. It is this I think, that causes mass confusion and can inevitably lead to the "Well we know plenty of people who are using it without any trouble..." scenario. You bang your head against the wall, and otherwise perfectly usable kit (a la GameVoice) gets retired to the 'Maybe I'll look at it another day' box.
Don't know if it'll help any, but little while back there was an interesting article on NAT and Messenger by Greg Schultz @ CNET: http://asia.cnet.com/itmanager/tech/...9092525,00.htm
You never know, may cast a little more light on where to look next, especially regarding the 'cascading' issue which he talks about.
Regards
Bob
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03-10-2003, 04:53 AM
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Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 332
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by byteme
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That's one but it's Classic only and no Audio. Thanks for the link but that goes in the "Not worth it" category. Hopefully the rumors about Apple putting Video Conferencing in iChat are true.
Daniel
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03-10-2003, 05:02 AM
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Editor Emeritus
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,171
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Daniel
Ok, NAT is usually the problem in these sorts of situations. It just doesn't work very well for these sorts of things. I had the same problems sending files to my brother. I think that it's just the nature of the beast not necessarily a Microsoft thing.
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Indeed, NAT is a big impediment to VoIP and related data applications. If you talk to VoIP researchers, they hate NAT. Longterm, the move to IPv6 will enable us to eliminate NAT entirely and solve the problem once and for all. While there are workarounds (like using the UPNP firewall), they're going to remain dicey and implementation-specific for some time. :cry:
This doesn't make Jason's rant any less true, though. Microsoft's piecemeal approach to developing workarounds is immensely frustrating. We recently set up Three Degrees in our office and while it's cool, NAT totally breaks it. Even though it's using MSNM 5. Sigh...
--janak
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03-10-2003, 05:36 AM
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Pupil
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 38
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Some explanations...
So here's some technical info for you. Windows Messenger 4.7 does not use UPnP to send files. It uses UPnP for the video confencing only. MSN Messenger 5.0 does utilize UPnP for file transfers, which is why it works with your new MN-500. Microsoft is working on Windows Messenger 5.0 which will use UPnP for file transfers. Why they didn't release it at the same time as MSN Messenger is a mystery to me.
You can use 4.7 for file transfers with some routers. From what I have been told, the Linksys line of routers actually recognizes the Windows Messenger file transfer and automatically rewrites the packets in order to allow file transfer. I too bought a MN-500 and was stuck by this bug. I don't know what to tell you about the GameVoice though. Last I heard Trillian to MSN file transfers did work. Make sure you've downloaded the latest Trillian patches, and the latest firmware for the MN-500. I think 1.08 is the newest and is vastly superior to the shipping version.
Good luck.
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03-10-2003, 05:44 AM
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Executive Editor
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 29,160
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Re: Some explanations...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nairb
So here's some technical info for you...
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Very interesting, thanks! I'm running 1.08 - whenever things don't work, that's the first thing I try - patches, upgrades, etc.
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03-10-2003, 06:25 AM
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Ponderer
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 89
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I'm not an IT person, just a regular consumer. But what is important is that a product works reliably. I don't care how it works, just that it does. That is my problem frequently with computers, they don't work the way I expect them to, and by extension what many other consumers feel. When major companies like Microsoft figure that out, the world will be a better place.
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Experte credite: Illegitimati non carborundum
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03-10-2003, 10:14 AM
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Ponderer
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 85
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User friendly firewall
Since when is a firewall supposed to be a consumer friendly device?
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Linear Mode
