Upgrading the Pocket PC Operating System [Archive]

Jason Dunn

02-18-2003, 10:30 PM

I've seen this question pop up dozens of times already, so it's time for a front page post. Whenever hints of the "next big thing" from the Pocket PC team start showing up, the question invariably becomes "I just bought a Pocket PC, can I upgrade it to the next OS?" The answer is simple: since all Pocket PC 2002 devices have Flash ROM, yes, it's technically possible for you to load a brand new OS in there. However, if you've been in the technology industry for any length of time, you know that "technically possible" doesn't always mean it will get done. When the Pocket PC team finishes up an operating system, they hand it off to the OEMs. The OEMs then build that OS into their new devices. At that point, each OEM also has a critical choice: do they decide to do the work needed to sell the OS to their customers who own older devices? Work they need to do includes tweaking the OS build for hardware compatibility and performance, drivers, manufacturing the CDs, setting up the distribution and sales channels, and testing their devices. Each OEM has to decide whether or not it's worth the investment to do this. That's the harsh reality: some OEMs may decide that they'd rather sell new hardware, and they won't offer an upgrade. Other OEMs will feel keeping their customers happy is important, and they'll offer the upgrade. Microsoft can't mandate this - we "belong" to the OEM, not Microsoft. So there you have it. Until the next Pocket PC OS is formally announced, and the OEMs formally announce their plan (or lack thereof) for upgrades, there are no firm answers.

Jason Dunn

02-18-2003, 10:34 PM

To all my fellow forum denizens: please refer people to this post whenever the question comes up in the forums (because you know it will). Thank you! :D

BTS

02-18-2003, 10:38 PM

I certainly understand that viewpoint BUT you have to wonder what that is going to do to sales over the next couple of months. Personally, I was prepared to shell out the $$ for a new Dell (it's a great little machine!). If If I can't upgrade it, though, then the problem I have is whether to buy now or wait 4 months and buy then. I thought Microsoft mandated the flash ROM for this very reason - if we wanted to upgrade then we could.

I know in the tech sector it's hard to make predictions but just this once I wish I had the crystal ball... :?

Bob Anderson

02-18-2003, 10:40 PM

I think it's safe to point out, that even if your OEM decides to offer an upgrade, you may or may not get "everything" a new PocketPC would have on it.

Case in point was the iPaq upgrade issue.. most early iPaqs only had 16MB of ROM... not enough to handle the 24 MB PPC 2002 operating system. So they cut out key features, like messenger, windows media player, et. al., and we had to load those apps, via later downloads, to RAM.

I'm not complaining... at least I could upgrade something :) , but upgrades, as always, don't seem to make everyone happy all of the time.

For those of you that have seen many of my previous posts, maybe now you'll understand that when on the subject of upgrades, I always recommend people buy current pocket PCs with 48 MB ROM, because Dell, Compaq and others didn't do this just for the fun of it... they probably know something most people don't :wink: Now just cross your fingers that those OEMs will give you a **chance** to upgrade!

Buy what you want and need and face the reality that no matter how much you spend today, tomorrow your investment will be worth less. It's just how technology works. If that bothers you, sit on your wallet until something new comes out; realizing again, that within days that too will be "old."[/i][/b]

Ed Hansberry

02-18-2003, 10:44 PM

entropy1980

02-18-2003, 10:49 PM

paulv

02-18-2003, 10:53 PM

:(
What really worries me is whether HP/Compaq will decide to bother building a Jornada version of Pocket Windows 2003. Any thoughts? Will the new OS even fit in 24MB ROM?

My Pocket PC is only a year and bit old. I think that I really should be able to run at least a couple of OS revisions before needing to upgrade.

Ed Hansberry

02-18-2003, 10:54 PM

I for one am getting nervous about whether anybody is going to be supporting upgrades....Everyone "in the know" seems to be downplaying their availability and saying the same thing "well you know it's obsolete when you buy it....". I for one think you will see support from HP with their high end 3970 and 5400 series but nothing below... but I could be wrong....

The problem is no current devices support the neural transmitter interface. Whoops... did I type that out loud? [del][del][del][del][del][del][del][del][del][del]. :lol:

Paragon

02-18-2003, 10:54 PM

entropy1980

02-18-2003, 11:06 PM

The problem is no current devices support the neural transmitter interface. Whoops... did I type that out loud? [del][del][del][del][del][del][del][del][del][del]. :lol:
No but my shiny new Clie does with HDTV support to boot!... and thats why Palm is better :roll: :lol: :lol:

Rob Borek

02-18-2003, 11:09 PM

Ah! Now the importance of NDAs begins to surface. If someone was to unofficially announce the date of a release it would make a mess of things wouldn't it. Things seem to work better when they go acording to plan. Announce it too early and it's even messier.

DING DING DING! :wink:

Anything dealing with the future of the Pocket PC (even the potential future), including the mere existence of such a future (such as the "codenames" that all Microsoft products have) are kept tightly under wraps on a "need-to-know" basis.

The reasons include OEM sales dropping, but also include giving Palm (and Symbian and other competitors) a heads-up on the future (look at what happened when PalmSource announced the Palm 5 OS a little prematurely), and many other business and technological reasons (what if the specs change, or the features of the OS change, or something else changes?).

This is why you'll see all the MVPs shut up and clam up when you ask us about any future versions :wink:

Jimmy Dodd

02-18-2003, 11:26 PM

I certainly understand that viewpoint BUT you have to wonder what that is going to do to sales over the next couple of months.

Ah! Now the importance of NDAs begins to surface. If someone was to unofficially announce the date of a release it would make a mess of things wouldn't it. Things seem to work better when they go acording to plan. Announce it too early and it's even messier.

Dave

That's what happened to the Osborne Computer Company back in the early 80's. They announced the Vixen before it was ready to ship. People quit buying the current models because they liked the features of the upcoming Vixen and decided to wait. Osborne ran out of money and filed for bancruptcy in '83. See http://oldcomputers.net/osborne.html for a nice synopsis.

Granted none of these guys are going to run out of money, but it still hits the bottom line.

Ed Hansberry

02-18-2003, 11:36 PM

That's what happened to the Osborne Computer Company back in the early 80's.
Oh my. My iPAQ has a bigger screen than the Osborne does. :lol:

BTS

02-19-2003, 12:04 AM

I certainly understand that viewpoint BUT you have to wonder what that is going to do to sales over the next couple of months
Why? What makes you think it is coming out that soon, or not? That is another reality of technology - no matter what you buy, it is outdated because something new, be it a new OS, new apps, new hardware, whatever will be out in the next month or so.

I personally really hope HP continues to support the existing iPAQs going forward. I am 100% happy with my 3970 and would love to get another 1-2 years out of it with an upgrade to the next PPC OS, be it in the next few months, this fall or in 04.

NDA's have their purpose so that we do not know when the next release will be. Personally, I have no idea when there will be a release. The "rumour", however, is out there and that's enough to get consumers wondering if what they are going to buy will be outdated soon. I suppose whichever way Microsoft goes they will have backward compatibility built in.

I agree with using older devices longer, Ed. I avoided the PPC 2002 upgrade because my EM-500 had a great screen and did everything I needed it to. Only now is it beginning to be long in the tooth (I discovered the joys of wireless networking on a handheld and now I am hooked!! :P ) I would love to buy a PPC (ie. Dell at a great price) and be able to use it for the next few years.

Duncan

02-19-2003, 12:30 AM

If past performance is a guide then the iPAQ range should be upgradeable to the next PPC OS. The Compaq Aero was uniquely upgradeable from CE 2.11 to Pocket PC and the iPAQ 3600 series was upgradeable to a form of PPC 2002. The 'current' iPAQs started the whole 48 Meg ROM thing.

Dell should be a safe bet. Jornadas? Maybe. Casio E200 - doubt it. Toshiba and Fujitsu-Siemens? One would hope so.

Fishie

02-19-2003, 01:04 AM

That's what happened to the Osborne Computer Company back in the early 80's.
Oh my. My iPAQ has a bigger screen than the Osborne does. :lol:

No it does not: built-in 5" green monitor

The floppy slots play havoc with youre perception of scale, they are the old style big floppys

Pony99CA

02-19-2003, 01:29 AM

NDA's have their purpose so that we do not know when the next release will be. Personally, I have no idea when there will be a release. The "rumour", however, is out there and that's enough to get consumers wondering if what they are going to buy will be outdated soon.

I was thinking the same thing. Contrary to Rob's comment, we know there will be another Pocket PC OS coming out. The thing we don't know is when. Not knowing can cause sales to flatten, too, but perhaps not as precipitously.

For example, assume we knew that Pocket PC 2003 would be available in October. Further assume that manufacturers announced which models would be upgradable. I suspect you would see any non-upgradable model sales start dropping now, whereas upgradable model sales might not drop off significantly until new models were announced. If upgradable model sales did drop, they would probably only drop significantly a month or two before PPC 2003.

Now consider the situation we have now. People expect a new Pocket PC OS probably in two to four months, and we don't know which devices will be upgradable. While some people may not want to wait that long to get a Pocket PC, I bet many people will, incluidng those of us looking to upgrade an existing Pocket PC. Sales of all models will start to taper, as people think the next OS is just around the corner.

For the consumer, I think full disclosure is always the best policy. The only OEMs who would be opposed to full disclosure are those who don't plan to offer upgrades or those with significant inventory of older models they don't think they can sell.

Anyway, that's my philosophy, for what it's worth. :-)

Steve

Rob Borek

02-19-2003, 01:51 AM

I was thinking the same thing. Contrary to Rob's comment, we know there will be another Pocket PC OS coming out. The thing we don't know is when. Not knowing can cause sales to flatten, too, but perhaps not as precipitously.

You don't know that there's another Pocket PC OS coming out. Microsoft has announced nothing - until they do, everything else is just pure speculation. Granted, the odds are good, but you never know Microsoft's plans. What if they were to switch to the upgrade piece-by-piece plan that was considered by the Windows group a few years ago for example?

For the consumer, I think full disclosure is always the best policy. The only OEMs who would be opposed to full disclosure are those who don't plan to offer upgrades or those with significant inventory of older models they don't think they can sell.

Until Microsoft releases news on any new Pocket PC OS, it is a violation of NDAs to discuss anything about the new OS, including upgradability or upgrade plans. You'll hopefully see full disclosure once something is announced.

Pony99CA

02-19-2003, 02:25 AM

You don't know that there's another Pocket PC OS coming out. Microsoft has announced nothing - until they do, everything else is just pure speculation. Granted, the odds are good, but you never know Microsoft's plans. What if they were to switch to the upgrade piece-by-piece plan that was considered by the Windows group a few years ago for example?

I don't know that the sun will come up tomorrow, either. :-D

People working for Microsoft don't even know what Microsoft will do. Neither do you, even with your Non-Disclosure Agreement. All anyone can know is what Microsoft plans to do at a specific moment (unless you believe in predestination :-)). That's still valuable information, though.

For the consumer, I think full disclosure is always the best policy. The only OEMs who would be opposed to full disclosure are those who don't plan to offer upgrades or those with significant inventory of older models they don't think they can sell.
Until Microsoft releases news on any new Pocket PC OS, it is a violation of NDAs to discuss anything about the new OS, including upgradability or upgrade plans. You'll hopefully see full disclosure once something is announced.
I wasn't suggesting that people under a Non-Disclosure Agreement should disclose anything. I simply meant that full disclosure from Microsoft and the OEMs is best for the consumer. I certainly don't expect you (or anybody else) to break their agreements with Microsoft. I thought that was clear from the context, but apparently not. :oops:

Steve

BTS

02-19-2003, 02:38 AM

I wasn't referring to what people under a Non-Disclosure Agreement should do. I meant that full disclosure from Microsoft and the OEMs is best for the consumer. I certainly don't expect you (or anybody else) to break their agreements with Microsoft. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Steve
I agree. I don't really care at this point what features would be incorporated in a future release (and I refuse to believe that MS would suddenly abandon the PPC OS hence the reason for future upgrade speculation). All I would ask from Microsoft is a committment that this OS would be able to be flashed to a current ARM/XScale machine, much like MS allows you to use 2 to 3 revs of Windows on the same hardware before it's necessary to upgrade the hardware. This way I can buy a piece of hardware without having to think about selling it on E-Bay in 6 months. Some would argue that you don't have to upgrade. With regard to Windows CE Microsoft seems to add compelling reasons to upgrade with each version of the OS. Also not to mention that I can't afford to keep shelling out $$ every 15 months (these devices are so addictive!). :o

Ed Hansberry

02-19-2003, 02:55 AM

Rob Borek

02-19-2003, 03:06 AM

For the consumer, I think full disclosure is always the best policy. The only OEMs who would be opposed to full disclosure are those who don't plan to offer upgrades or those with significant inventory of older models they don't think they can sell.
Until Microsoft releases news on any new Pocket PC OS, it is a violation of NDAs to discuss anything about the new OS, including upgradability or upgrade plans. You'll hopefully see full disclosure once something is announced.
I wasn't suggesting that people under a Non-Disclosure Agreement should disclose anything. I simply meant that full disclosure from Microsoft and the OEMs is best for the consumer. I certainly don't expect you (or anybody else) to break their agreements with Microsoft. I thought that was clear from the context, but apparently not. :oops:[/quote]

It was clear... I was just explaining why it can't happen - and that probably won't change anytime soon.

Rob Borek

02-19-2003, 03:08 AM

Oh sure we do. Everyone does. MS has made a firm committment to the Pocket PC and mobile devices. :D There will be another revision, then another, then another. :-)

Now, the when is a different story.

True... but the if/when/what/etc. is still out. Until Microsoft releases a press release, we don't know what's going on 8)

Weyoun6

02-19-2003, 03:11 AM

Pony99CA

02-19-2003, 03:28 AM

I wasn't suggesting that people under a Non-Disclosure Agreement should disclose anything. I simply meant that full disclosure from Microsoft and the OEMs is best for the consumer. I certainly don't expect you (or anybody else) to break their agreements with Microsoft. I thought that was clear from the context, but apparently not. :oops:
It was clear... I was just explaining why it can't happen - and that probably won't change anytime soon.
But your premise is flawed. Microsoft can announce when the next version will be available. OEMs could announce that their devices will be upgradable. You can't, which is fine, but the principals could if they wanted to.

I understand they have business reasons not to disclose that information, but don't try to say that it's impossible for them do disclose it. Microsoft doesn't want to get another black eye like they do when they announce software and then delay it multiple times. OEMs don't want to see sales of their existing devices drop off (but I tried to present a scenario where that may not happen).

We users have different goals, though. :-)

Steve

Foo Fighter

02-19-2003, 03:49 AM

Jason, is my 1997 Ford Ranger upgradeable to PPC 2004? If not, I'll never buy another Microsoft product again...EVAR! :roll:

Seriously, whatever is coming, I predict there will be a LOT of PPC devices out there that aren't going to be upgradeable...despite having flash ROM. The HP 1910 may be among those left in the dark. That said, I HAVE to believe Microsoft is smart enough to know that if their new OS is inaccessible to the broad installed base, there will come a terrible reckoning.

Ed Hansberry

02-19-2003, 04:15 AM

Jason, is my 1997 Ford Ranger upgradeable to PPC 2004? If not, I'll never buy another Microsoft product again...EVAR! :roll:
Excellent point. Pocket PCs should be though of more as appliances (as all embedded devices should) and not computers. Doesn't mean the PPC can't be upgraded, but unlike your computer, don't assume it can be.

ppcsurfr

02-19-2003, 04:31 AM

I think if the OEM decides not to market an upgrade... it can spell certain death to their Pocket PC line.

Just spread the word that so and so OEM isn't offering any upgrades and down goes their sales even for new Pocket PCs... Why? Well people will feel that they are being cheated.

ppcsurfr

Pony99CA

02-19-2003, 04:32 AM

Excellent point. Pocket PCs should be though of more as appliances (as all embedded devices should) and not computers. Doesn't mean the PPC can't be upgraded, but unlike your computer, don't assume it can be.
I don't know that I'd called a Pocket PC an "embedded device" any more than I'd call a computer one.

First, a Pocket PC is a computer, not an appliance, with all of the necessary items that a computer requires (input, processing and output). It's not as if a Pocket PC is a blender or a microwave which happens to have a microprocessor embedded in it. Even my old Sharp Mobilon Handheld PC claimed to be upgradable (by switching ROMs).

Of the Windows CE devices that I'm familiar with, the closest to an appliance would be the Auto PC (and maybe Web TV and UltimateTV). I might not expect those to be upgradable.

Howver, I think expectations are shifting, even in consumer products. My Replay TV is upgradable as new software becomes available. I'm not sure they're upgrading my model any more, but I know that I got one (and maybe two) major upgrades.

Steve

Rob Borek

02-19-2003, 04:46 AM

Foo Fighter

02-19-2003, 05:10 AM

Ok, you twisted my arm. Everyone is just dying to know what the new PPC OS is going to be like. So, I'll violate my NDA and spill the beans...here goes:

First, Microsoft has replaced the Start Menu with an animated Frog that makes grotesque bodily noises. He alerts you of upcoming appointments by farting. When you receive incoming e-mail, he sticks out his tongue and dances wildly. And that's not all. When you move your stylus across the screen, he fallows along to wherever you tap.

In addition, Microsoft has reorganized the Programs screen. From now on, all applications and games are stored in a folder called "Stuff". To launch applications, you simply tap on the Frog and tell him what you want to load. Say..."Everquest" and he'll launch it. Of course, sometimes he doesn't understand English real well, so you'll have to speak slow and loudly. If that doesn't work just launch the command line and enter the path to the application (Linux users will love this feature). Cool huh?

The PIM applications have also undergone a significant makeover. For example, Microsoft realizes that the day to day task of entering appointments can be just a bit boring. So to liven things up, the Calendar app has been redesigned to mask upcoming appointments; in conjunction to this a game has been built right into the app called..."Guess which appointment I'm late for!". If you guess correctly, the Frog will then display the upcoming appointment. The new Calendar is also incredibly clever at analyzing your late appointments and comparing them to your current location and warning of conflicts. For example, let's say you were supposed to meet your girlfriend for dinner at 7:00PM. But instead you chose to secretly hook up with that hot new chic from work. No problem, Calendar will simply send a notification to your Girlfriend that you are cheating on her and all your problems are solved.

To make application naming more simple and understandable to the user, the Tasks program has been renamed to..."Stuff I gotta do" . It features a new simple list style layout which places checkmarks next to unfinished items. If you fail to complete a task, the application will penalize you by emitting a very intense electric shock. After you regain consciousness, an alert will appear on the screen giving you details on your forgotten task. *Disclaimer* Pocket PC devices are no longer recommended for persons wearing medical implants such as pacemakers and heart valves.

Look out folks, there's a new Pocket Inbox! This new version is guaranteed to produce 5% less errors than its predecessor. e-mail fans will rejoice. When you register your new Pocket PC online, Microsoft will sell your address to online marketers. Just sit back and watch spam appear like magic. Soon you'll be getting offers for penis enlargement, breast implants, free vacations, "Get rich quick" career opportunities...the list is endless.

But wait, don't go away..come back here, I'm not done. Did I tell you about the new Windows Media Player? Oh baby let me tall ya...this thing rocks! ROCKS....rocks...with new Digital Rights Management! It won't play any song that has been copied from a CD, or download from the web. Basically it only plays the default sample clip which came with your PPC. But hey, it's a five minute clip and really sounds awesome. I could listen to it for hours over and over again. Which is a good thing cause that's all you're going to be able to listen to. In addition, there are two cool new skins..GREEN and ORANGE. You can also create custom skins...but Microsoft won't tell you how..cause that's a secret only the Frog knows and he ain't talkin.

And did I mention the new Pocket Internet Explorer? The new version finally supports HTML 2.0. I hear Animated GIF supported is coming in Windows CE 5.0.

Cool huh? Yeah, I can hardly wait myself. Hope this answers everyone's questions. :wink:

Janak Parekh

02-19-2003, 05:17 AM

First, Microsoft has replaced the Start Menu with an animated Frog that makes grotesque bodily noises. He alerts you of upcoming appointments by farting. When you receive incoming e-mail, he sticks out his tongue and dances wildly. And that's not all. When you move your stylus across the screen, he fallows along to wherever you tap.
What, Microsoft Bob is back? :lol:

Your post was actually quite inspired, Foo. I could probably point out a market segment or two who would totally want a Frog on their PDA. BonziBuddy, anyone?

--janak

that_kid

02-19-2003, 05:17 AM

:rofl:

Now that was good

Foo Fighter

02-19-2003, 05:22 AM

What, Microsoft Bob is back? :lol:

Ha! I was thinking more along the lines of "Clippy". But now that you mention it, it does sound more like Boob...er, I mean Bob. :lol:

bigkingfun

02-19-2003, 05:27 AM

When a new version of Windows is going to be released, we always know well ahead of time when it's going to happen. The manufacturers often start labeling their computer as "Ready for Windows ##" and sometimes even offer free or inexpensive upgrades for a certain period of time before the release. In reality, the mileage from these upgrade claims can vary. Significant changes such as Win 3.1 to 95 or 9x to XP can often cause problems even with these systems that claim upgradability.

I don't think we can ever expect a 100% guarantee of upgradability. There are just too many variables involved with multiple vendors relying on Microsoft, who can change things as much or as little as they see fit. I don't know how far ahead the manufacturers find out what will be needed for the next version, but one would hope that the latest models released with any given version would be built to be capable of running a new version. Things like the 48Mb ROM would seem to indicate that is the case, since they aren't necessary for the current version, but unless you are on the inside and know what is coming up, there is no way to know for sure.

I think we also have to consider that most of us are probably a lot more aware of these issues than many consumers who just wants a "Palm Pilot" to keep track of their phone #'s, calendar, etc. They are probably choosing the Pocket PC more and more as the prices drop because it can do so many more things than most Palms (IMHO, at least :D ) While the sales may drop off some if a new version is announced ahead of its release, I don't think it will make a difference to a lot of people. At least until they start to realize that the handheld market changes as quickly as the PC market does.

Pony99CA

02-19-2003, 06:30 AM

But your premise is flawed. Microsoft can announce when the next version will be available. OEMs could announce that their devices will be upgradable. You can't, which is fine, but the principals could if they wanted to.

I understand they have business reasons not to disclose that information, but don't try to say that it's impossible for them do disclose it. Microsoft doesn't want to get another black eye like they do when they announce software and then delay it multiple times. OEMs don't want to see sales of their existing devices drop off (but I tried to present a scenario where that may not happen).

We users have different goals, though. :-)
Actually, you don't know that - the contents of the licensing agreements and non-disclosure agreements could preclude Microsoft from announcing what you want, and the OEMs from announcing upgradability (ie Microsoft can only announce the OS after x days after RTM, and the OEM can only release information after Microsoft does, thereby creating a vacuum until Microsoft can contractually release such info). The above would not be an implausible scenario, and it's incredibly difficult to change licensing agreements (especially with something like you want, where it involves additional obligations of the OEM and additional obligations for Microsoft). So, they couldn't even if they wanted to :)
OK, so Microsoft and the OEMs might have to negotiate things. They still could do it if they wanted to. There's no universal law that says it can't be done. :roll:

If it will make you feel better, I'll agree that it's not likely to happen. I even understood why it wasn't likely. However, that's not relevant to my original point. Full disclosure is better for consumers -- or are you disputing that?

<obligatory Microsoft jab>
Of course, you're also assuming that Microsoft would play by the rules. That hasn't stopped them in the past. Ask Sun Microsystems, for example. :-D
</obligatory Microsoft jab>

Steve

Ashley Dunn

02-19-2003, 06:56 AM

When a new version of Windows is going to be released, we always know well ahead of time when it's going to happen.

If Microsoft had a monopoly on the Pocket PC and was making scads of cash off it, I think you'd see them acting differently. But they're an underdog in this market, which requires different tactics. Think about it a little. :wink:

jimski

02-19-2003, 07:42 AM

Anybody who thinks a 9 month old PPC is still cutting edge must also believe a Pentium 133 is still a perky PC.

Get over it already. The OEM's don't want to sell you an OS Upgrade for $24.95. They want you to buy a new PPC. You buy a new device and that gives the OEM the capital to make an even better, small, slicker 8) PPC and the cycle continues. It also eliminates the need for all this backward compatibality. I don't need my $800 Bang and Olufsen turntable to play 78's.

Totally off topic - Why is it that I can't remember one time when either of my Osbornes (still up in the attic) ever locked up, froze or otherwise caused me to reboot the machine. The original Portable PC.

Tierran

02-19-2003, 09:46 AM

Anybody who thinks a 9 month old PPC is still cutting edge must also believe a Pentium 133 is still a perky PC.

No, but if they want me to buy their wares, then, they better support them.

Pony99CA

02-19-2003, 10:54 AM

Anybody who thinks a 9 month old PPC is still cutting edge must also believe a Pentium 133 is still a perky PC.

The iPAQ 3970 is about nine months old now, and I'd say it's closer to cutting edge than a 133 MHz Pentium. It's at most one generation behind cutting edge (maybe more like 1/2 generation); a Pentium 133 is at least three generations behind cutting edge.

Get over it already. The OEM's don't want to sell you an OS Upgrade for $24.95. They want you to buy a new PPC. You buy a new device and that gives the OEM the capital to make an even better, small, slicker 8) PPC and the cycle continues. It also eliminates the need for all this backward compatibality.

What a great sentiment. Imagine if the new version of Windows didn't work with any PCs other than new ones. Imagine if software companies didn't provide upgrade prices but required you to buy a new version every release. Do you think they'd make more or less money?

Steve

mattp

02-19-2003, 01:29 PM

I'm sure many of you remember the case that occurred two (or three?) years ago involving the Sharp HC-4xxx HPCs. Sharp initially sold the machines with CE 2.0 and advertised that they would be upgradeable to the next generation of CE.

Of course, along came CE 2.11 and Sharp decided not to support the new OS with its HC series machines and went with new hardware. To make a long story and court battle short, Sharp ended up having to provide a free (+s/h) CE 2.11 ROM upgrade to all HC-4xxx users. Sharp made an announcement that the upgrade would be available for a limited time if you filled out an online form, and certainly did not prominently display it on their site. The only way I found out was a great site like this one. I still have my upgraded HC-4100 in the attic.

But, when I read about OEMs announcing upgradeability, this certainly comes to mind. What if Dell decides that a new machine would be best like Sharp did? What if Compaq decides, for whatever reason, to completely exit the Pocket PC market and instead focus its efforts on retailing citrus in supermarkets? They might just be setting themselves up for a huge financial burden.

I agree entirely with Pony99. I'd love it if the OEMs would tell about upgradeability. In my case, they would increase sales in the interim because I'd probably buy an Axim immediately to replace my aging PPC 2000. Instead, I wait . . .

I think the OEMs are damned if they do and damned if they don't, but they've learned how to play it safe anyhow.

Ed Hansberry

02-19-2003, 02:06 PM

Anybody who thinks a 9 month old PPC is still cutting edge must also believe a Pentium 133 is still a perky PC.
The 3970 is about 9 months old and is still more cutting edge than most Pocket PCs out there.

Ed Hansberry

02-19-2003, 02:34 PM

Doesn't anyone remember what Compaq did in 2001? Months before MS was ready to announce the Pocket PC 2002 device, they announced that all iPAQs would be upgradable. This of course sank HP's and Casio's sales as there devices weren't upgradable.

It would't surprise me though if one of the OEMs broke ranks claiming theirs was upgradable. Today, the hardware is all basically the same - ARM based machine, Flash ROM, etc. It will just mean that OEM will be ready to make CDs for users. I'd say when you see that type of press release from an OEM you'll know a new OS is coming - far before MS is ready to announce.

If nothing else it is interesting to watch them. :) Here's hoping Toshiba remembers 570 and 310 owners! :beer: Their EUU team seems to have a short memory. :(

RobertCF

02-19-2003, 04:57 PM

I believe the point that was being made is that there is no nebulous law that says Microsoft has to have OEMs, etc. sign any kind of NDA. They could simply say "here's what's coming, let your customer base know whatever you think is appropriate for your marketing plan." If that means company X will take the new OS and only supply it with new hardware, thus alienating their older clients, that's their choice. If they choose to "hide" that fact until the actual release, that's their choice, too, and MS doesn't get any flak because they've already said "Here's our new OS--your device could be upgraded if your OEM supports it, but it's not our call".

As it is, MS, as well as many other companies, have particular reasons to let OEMs know things and swear them to secrecy--MS doesn't HAVE to require it, they just choose to. However, once they require it, law dictates all signees must abide by it, obviously.

ppcsurfr

02-19-2003, 05:17 PM

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If nothing else it is interesting to watch them. :) Here's hoping Toshiba remembers 570 and 310 owners! :beer: Their EUU team seems to have a short memory. :(

I think Toshiba doesn't intend to come out with EUU3 updates for these devices... Well at least that's what a certain german site seems to believe.

But then again... how did Audiovox end up with their own EUU3 for the Maestro????

http://www.audiovox.com/downloads/EUU0210_ENG.CAB

And yes... that is the EUU3. Now, will that work with the other Toshibas?

spursdude

02-21-2003, 07:55 AM

But then again... how did Audiovox end up with their own EUU3 for the Maestro????

http://www.audiovox.com/downloads/EUU0210_ENG.CAB

And yes... that is the EUU3. Now, will that work with the other Toshibas?

That EUU3 is exactly in the form that Microsoft sent it out to all companies... basically, Audiovox didn't make any device-specific modifications. I'm pretty sure it will work on other devices. Before Audiovox came out with the EUU3 themselves, a lot of users intalled the EUU3 from the Compaq / HP website, because it's exactly the same as what Microsoft sent to the OEM - should do no harm regardless of what device you have.

But don't hold me responsible for anything other than good results. :D

baker

02-21-2003, 12:25 PM

I've got an e310 and Toshiba tells me they have "no timetable for an EUU3". Basically, it was upgrade at your own risk and without warranty.

wiljs

02-22-2003, 01:45 AM

I think the 200mhz bus is worth waiting for...you won't be able to upgrade to that...if it arrives before the os...I'm in...

:)

stevelink

02-24-2003, 05:48 AM

Ah! Now the importance of NDAs begins to surface. If someone was to unofficially announce the date of a release it would make a mess of things wouldn't it. Things seem to work better when they go acording to plan. Announce it too early and it's even messier.

Dave

Dave, you are exactly right. That is precisely what happened to Handspring when they announced development of their "Treo" line of "Communicators". I was an early adopter, but waited from October, 2001 to February, 2002, before I was able to purchase one off their website.
I hope the same thing doesn't happen to HP, as the recent pictures of their new "56xx" line of PocketPCs has caused me (and probably others)to hesitate in shelling out the bucks for the existing 5455.

AndrewLubinus89

02-25-2003, 02:15 PM

I was wondering if new programs made for the new os would be compatible with ppc2k2?

Ed Hansberry

02-25-2003, 02:42 PM

I was wondering if new programs made for the new os would be compatible with ppc2k2?
I am sure they will. Most new apps today run just fine on Pocket PC 2000 and 2002 devices. I would expect even more compatibility in the future since all devices going forward are ARM based whereas some 2000 devices were MIPS or SH3.

Bradskey

02-26-2003, 12:58 AM

Anybody who thinks a 9 month old PPC is still cutting edge must also believe a Pentium 133 is still a perky PC.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. How long was the Jornada 568, the ORIGINAL PPC 2002, arguably faster and superior to all subsequent PPC 2002 devices, including Xscale? Until this latest line of iPaqs and the Axim in my book -- Asus beats it a little too. And frankly its still no slouch. (No flame please, I KNOW other devices have their merits).

A $500-600 mobile device should have a lifetime of about 2 years. Naturally the technophiles will need to upgrade every 2-3 months.

Bradskey

02-26-2003, 01:08 AM

I was wondering if new programs made for the new os would be compatible with ppc2k2?

Programs that make use of the CE.NET 4.x features probably will not work on PPC2K2, since they will be calling new APIs not present in the older 3.0 OS. Programs designed for .NET CF should work on current and future PPCs. Assuming the Win32 API subset and most PocketPC-specific APIs would still be present in the new platform, with additions, then most current applications would probably run fine on new devices, or could be easily modified to run on newer devices. But since nobody really knows anything yet, nobody (who is free to talk) can authoritatively answer your question. But think of this -- Palm groupies used to bash us over the head with our "small software library" (okay, they still do because they don't ever update their critiques). Do you think MS wants to disenfranchise the large and growing collection of software applications available for PPC? MS always strives for backward compatibility. But again, like I said, making use of new features will likely preclude PPC2K2 devices for new programs, although you won't see an appreciable number of CE.NET-only apps for a LONG time, even if new devices came out tomorrow.

BaKsHi

03-05-2003, 05:29 PM

Yeah, but the question is, when is P/PC 2003. I heard from Microsoft it is coming out maybe this month or next month. I wish Microsoft would tell us when there new OS's would come out.

Ed Hansberry

03-05-2003, 05:45 PM

Yeah, but the question is, when is P/PC 2003. I heard from Microsoft it is coming out maybe this month or next month. I wish Microsoft would tell us when there new OS's would come out.
There is a very good reason why they don't. Sales dry up after the announcement and before the devices ship.

Usually you will know 30-45 days before the first devices ship because OEMs will announce new products.

Lets say the day is May 1. What do you do? Nothing. You wait until May 1 to buy. MS and OEM (HP, Toshiba, etc.) sales dry up for 2 months.

Lets say the day is August 1. You may still wait. That is 5 months of sales drying up.

Lets say the day is December 1. Well, you may buy now, but come June/July, people decide to just wait.

It is a bit different from an Office or Windows update. I am 99.99999% confident that a versoin of Office or Windows that releases in 3-24 months will work just fine on a PC I buy tomorrow. I may need more RAM or may even need a different video card, but that is a small cost. Embedded devices are different. OEMs are aware that upgradability is important but if for some reason a device can't be upgraded due to a hardware issue, there isn't much the OEM can do about it. Consumers are aware of that and would be more inclined to hold off rather than buy now and possibly get bitten in 3/6/9 months.

Palm just announced sales are way down from expectations because of poor sales on high end devices. Some of that is because the Tungsten T is too expensive for what it is. But I wonder how much of it is because Palm announced OS6 will ship this summer? Do you want to plunk down $400 on a high end Palm that might not be upgradable? Neither does anyone else.