Security Issue or Big Brother Issue?

[Andy Sjostrom]

<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1033-981244.html?tag=fd_top">http://news.com.com/2100-1033-981244.html?tag=fd_top</a><br /><br />The Smartphone 2002 "security issue" I recently <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7249">wrote</a> about continues to create headlines.<br />This <a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1033-981244.html?tag=fd_top">CNET article</a> quotes a software developer Damian Hack (!) who provides some legitimate nuances to the situation: "The Orange SPV has not been 'hacked'," Hack wrote. "The (security measure) has, rather, been legally circumvented by exploiting existing bugs in the bundled software and operating system. This circumvention allows developers to test their applications on their own SPV prior to going through the Orange certification process. This is surely a necessity in any robust and quality-assured development scheme."<br /><br />I could not agree more. The real issue at hand is an operator wanting to lock down devices, not software developers and users being able to run whatever applications they choose.

[jizmo]

This is not an issue to laugh at, but I can't get over his name. :lol:

What's the origin of the word anyway? Was the fist hacked named "Hack" or something like that?

/jizmo

[surur]

Of course we all want to be able pick and choose our own applications!

but just as a devil's advocate....

Reasons to have signed applications:

1) create a revenue stream for mobile phone operators, increasing subsidy on phones, hereby making them more available.

2) decrease support costs for operators, thereby making the phones more easy to adopt, making them more avilable.

3) making phones more predictable, thereby decreasing development time, making them more available.

etc...

Im sure there are a few more reasons. The tall tale regarding security is obviously just that. PPCPE has no signing, and there are many GSM cards available with obviously no signing.

Having said all that, I want my smartphone (although a just bought a T68i) as long as it has GPRS, Bluetooth, Colour screen (and maybe a camera).. Im still waiting, and may be willing to sacrifice some freedom for a product in my hand....

Surur

[PPCWanderer]

I don't see anyone saying that Microsoft and Intel should be allowed to lock down PCs so that they can get more money to make PCs cheaper and more available. Doesn't cut it in my book. Would anybody put up with that?

[T-Will]

Ok who's the ONE person who picked "...let Orange decide what applications I may install to my Smartphone!"??? :D

[Kevin Daly]

The whole policy is just a bad move from Orange...where software is involved, software sells devices. Programmers will not bother with a system they have to go through hoops for the privilege of developing for. The certification process will not encourage (to put it mildly) the development of a large and vibrant developer community.

Silly, silly, silly.

[Sslixtis]

Ok who's the ONE person who picked "...let Orange decide what applications I may install to my Smartphone!"???:D

Judging by the posts it looks like it was probably Surur(nope it's 3 now!!! 1%!?!?!)Of course we all want to be able pick and choose our own applications!

but just as a devil's advocate....

Reasons to have signed applications:

1) create a revenue stream for mobile phone operators, increasing subsidy on phones, hereby making them more available.

2) decrease support costs for operators, thereby making the phones more easy to adopt, making them more avilable.

3) making phones more predictable, thereby decreasing development time, making them more available.

etc...

Im sure there are a few more reasons. The tall tale regarding security is obviously just that. PPCPE has no signing, and there are many GSM cards available with obviously no signing.

Having said all that, I want my smartphone (although a just bought a T68i) as long as it has GPRS, Bluetooth, Colour screen (and maybe a camera).. Im still waiting, and may be willing to sacrifice some freedom for a product in my hand....

Surur

1) Yeah, cell phone revenue stream should be considered, forget that competition thing, it is way overrated!

2) Availabilty is such a problem, can't find a descent cell phone anywhere! Although there is hope, there is a tiny start-up called Symbian that may help us survive until MS gets around to taking the burden of freedom and choice of software off our hands.

3) Ahh predictability, drinking Hemlock has predictable results doesn't mean I want to do it!

Sorry to Rant, but why is it that Americans(Land of the Free) are always the first to sacrifice "a little" freedom for ease of use? A little freedom for comfort, a little freedom for security, a little freedom to save money. A little here, a little there; how long before we look around a see we no longer have even "a little" left??

I'll use pigeons, before I use a "security" enabled smartphone. Thank any and all available Deities for Symbian.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

- Thomas Jefferson, 1787


Let The Orange SPVs blood flow, along with that of all other would be Tyrants! :2gunfire:

[Janak Parekh]

Sorry to Rant, but why is it that Americans(Land of the Free) are always the first to sacrifice "a little" freedom for ease of use?
What exactly does this have to do with this debate? Note that the Orange SPV is being sold in the UK, not the US.

In any case, I certainly won't be buying a restricted Smartphone. It would defeat the purpose in my eyes.

--janak

[Sslixtis]

What exactly does this have to do with this debate? Note that the Orange SPV is being sold in the UK, not the US.

In any case, I certainly won't be buying a restricted Smartphone. It would defeat the purpose in my eyes.

--janak

People in the US are already justifying this "security" feature, along with making statements like Im still waiting, and may be willing to sacrifice some freedom for a product in my hand....and unless I miss my guess, MS will be offering this "feature" to service providers here in the US as well as those in the EU.

Just getting all my future rants against the coming US Smartphones setup now :twisted:

[Mike Wagstaff]

In all fairness to Orange, the article does say that "the company would make "unlocked" phones available to developers sometime next month."

Next month? Gotta love the speed...

Developers only? No doubt, actually getting one will require that you sign your life away and then wait a few more months for the privilege...

Words cannot express how low my opinion of Orange is at this moment in time.

[Janak Parekh]

People in the US are already justifying this "security" feature, along with making statements like Im still waiting, and may be willing to sacrifice some freedom for a product in my hand....
You're assuming, of course, that Surur is American. (a) He might not be (seeing as how he spells "colour"); and (b) my point is, it's irrelevant - this is a global thing.

and unless I miss my guess, MS will be offering this "feature" to service providers here in the US as well as those in the EU.
Well, I won't be buying one either then ;) A lot of consumers have been complaining about the Motorola T720 on Verizon, where you can't even download your own ringtones without going through their for-pay service.

--janak

[Sslixtis]

You're assuming, of course, that Surur is American. (a) He might not be (seeing as how he spells "colour"); and (b) my point is, it's irrelevant - this is a global thing.

I knew you were going to catch that one, that's why I used like when quoting him. I was discussing this at work last week in Phoenix, AZ and a co-worker had like opinions. I also spell colour with a u but that comes from dating an English woman for years. Those u's just drifted in. :wink:

I agree this is a Global issue, however, alot of countries just accept this kind of concept as how things are done. Also, I do not feel that I can/should criticize the choices made in other countries. I do however, feel it is my duty as a good citizen to help guide my fellow Americans and if I see them selling their freedom(in my opinion) then I want to call them on it.

Besides, at no point will anyone just accept my opinion on this matter, and I'm sure I will be well and truely flamed, but if it makes just one person stop and THINK, it was worth it. :wink:

Anyway, back on topic. As long as Smartphones have this "feature" I'll be going sans smartphone. :(

[Jason Dunn]

As long as Smartphones have this "feature" I'll be going sans smartphone. :(

You've got to separate the PHONE from the CARRIER. The phone can come locked or unlocked - it's up to the carrier to decide. Don't blame Microsoft or the phone for the poor decision made be a carrier.

[Sslixtis]

You've got to separate the PHONE from the CARRIER. The phone can come locked or unlocked - it's up to the carrier to decide. Don't blame Microsoft or the phone for the poor decision made be a carrier.

Agreed, That is why I said, as long as it had that feature :wink:
and this is one time atleast, I'm not blaming MS 8O However, I have little faith in our carriers here in the US and I see no reason to get my hopes up until I see a Smartphnoe being offered by a carrier without this feature. Besides, the spin the mass media is giving this does little to encourage me to believe we will see a US version without this feature. :(
Here's to hoping I'm wrong. :beer:

[Jonathon Watkins]

As long as Smartphones have this "feature" I'll be going sans smartphone. :(

You've got to separate the PHONE from the CARRIER. The phone can come locked or unlocked - it's up to the carrier to decide. Don't blame Microsoft or the phone for the poor decision made be a carrier.

Fair point. This is about Orange gouging the customers for as much as they can get, not about MS!

[surur]

Back again!!

I admit... I was trolling just a little bit... but I think too often we only see things from a geek user's POV, in stead of an executive who has to make purchase decisions. And of course *they* are the important people when it comes to choosing which phone is being made avialable on a network, which feature will be included in a product etc.

And for them, those reasons I listed would all be very much plus points.

For the record, of course I voted for installing any application I choose.

But living in UK, which has long been a country for defeated pragmatists, I dont actually expect any phone to be released without the "feature".

and I would not absolve microsoft from all blame.. they included the "feature", and probably sold the phone company on them with those very reasons I listed.

Just remember... in this case we are very much *not* microsoft's customer.. we are just the consumer. The customer is the phone company, and they will release the phone that will make them the most money (and cost them the least)

Surur

[Robert Levy]

In all fairness to Orange, the article does say that "the company would make "unlocked" phones available to developers sometime next month."

They actually made this promise a little after the SPV was first released and have *just* responded to the large number of people who signed up for their developers program.

Their response:

Thank you for your application to join the Orange Developers Forum. Please accept out apologies for the delay in responding, we currently have an overwhelming number of applications to process.

Before we approve your application, could you please provide us with some more information about your company. Can you please send us a hard, colour copy of your company brochure. Please post it to the address to follow

Kindest Regards

Stephanie Partridge
Orange Developers Forum

[Andy Sjostrom]

Their response:

Thank you for your application to join the Orange Developers Forum. Please accept out apologies for the delay in responding, we currently have an overwhelming number of applications to process.

Before we approve your application, could you please provide us with some more information about your company. Can you please send us a hard, colour copy of your company brochure. Please post it to the address to follow

Kindest Regards

Stephanie Partridge
Orange Developers Forum


:lol: 8O :evil: :roll: :cry: :oops:

[Jonathon Watkins]

Their response:

Thank you for your application to join the Orange Developers Forum. Please accept out apologies for the delay in responding, we currently have an overwhelming number of applications to process.

Before we approve your application, could you please provide us with some more information about your company. Can you please send us a hard, colour copy of your company brochure. Please post it to the address to follow

Kindest Regards

Stephanie Partridge
Orange Developers Forum


:rofl: :eek: :shocked!: :snipersmile: :2gunfire: :grinning devil:

[Janak Parekh]

You men of few words... ;)

It's obvious they're trying to control who gets these "unlocked" phones. I don't see why they think, though, that developers all have "hard color brochures". That's something bizarre; smacks of a set of requirements from "old school" business-types, and it's just nonexistent for all the small development teams out there. I'd just look for developer experience/certifications, myself.

--janak

[Tim Allen]

Clearly they're only interested in large, established development companies to provide software for them. A bit strange, given the main point of certification would be to verify apps from small or non-commercial developers rather than the large companies.

It seems like they're simply not interested in having to deal with and support a large, open developer community. Costs too much money, and little revenue to be gained.

[Janak Parekh]

It seems like they're simply not interested in having to deal with and support a large, open developer community. Costs too much money, and little revenue to be gained.
This is, IMHO, a recipe for failure (or, at least, less success). Part of what made Palms and Pocket PCs so much more successful than the old Casio and Sharp organizers was the ability for small-time developers to write useful programs. MS recognized this and made Embedded Visual Tools free. Unfortunately, Orange doesn't :(

--janak

[Mike Wagstaff]

Mike Wagstaff wrote:
In all fairness to Orange, the article does say that "the company would make "unlocked" phones available to developers sometime next month."

They actually made this promise a little after the SPV was first released and have *just* responded to the large number of people who signed up for their developers program.
Sorry, I was being sarcastic with that "in all fairness" quote. The only fair thing that I want to happen to Orange now is that the team (person?) responsible for this debacle is moved very swiftly aside and replaced by some half-competent people.

Orange, if you're listening - I'm available for a job, and I'll show you how to make money without resorting to tactics that make you look like a bunch of halfwitted despots! ;)

[Jonathon Watkins]

It seems like they're simply not interested in having to deal with and support a large, open developer community. Costs too much money, and little revenue to be gained.
This is, IMHO, a recipe for failure (or, at least, less success). Part of what made Palms and Pocket PCs so much more successful than the old Casio and Sharp organizers was the ability for small-time developers to write useful programs. MS recognized this and made Embedded Visual Tools free. Unfortunately, Orange doesn't :(

--janak

Agreed – it’s unbelievable really. They find a smartphone with lots of functionality and masses of POTENTIAL functionality – and then destroy the potential. What about the network effect? Even the most lame half headed business manager must have heard of that. The usefulness of networks (real or networks of products) increased linearly (or even exponentially) with the number of devices in use. I.e. more devices = better. The ‘Walled garden’ of WAP failed to take off as users wanted (and still want) open access to whatever they want. Stopping them from making the choice of running the software they choose is mad. Orange lose as people just simple won’t buy the phone or sign up to their network. Their loss! :roll:

[Janak Parekh]

Sorry, I was being sarcastic with that "in all fairness" quote. The only fair thing that I want to happen to Orange now is that the team (person?) responsible for this debacle is moved very swiftly aside and replaced by some half-competent people.
Call me the skeptic here about this getting resolved - the vast majority of wireless companies have the exact same behavior. They then wonder why people don't want high-speed data. :roll:

--janak