My Favourite Colour Is...

[Jason Dunn]

"My favourite colour is yellow. Yellow is the best there is - it clearly outperforms all other colours. Specification wise, yellow surpasses all other colours, and you'd have to be an idiot not to see that. Yellow is also cheaper than other colours, and that's really what matters. No, I haven't actually held yellow in my hands, nor have I seen any direct comparisons to other colours (like red or green), but come on, THINK about it would you? How can you possibly prefer other colours when it's SOOOOO obvious that yellow is the best? Did you eat lead paint chips as a child? Your reasons for liking anything other than yellow are stupid! Can't you read the specs I'm posting? Why are you making me repeat myself? Yellow is the only choice for anyone with two ounces of grey matter!"<br /><br />No, I haven't gone insane. :wink: The above is a fictional, but fairly accurate, representation of what has been going on in the forums over the past two weeks. But instead of "yellow", insert any model of new Pocket PC - Dell Axim X5, Viewsonic V35, HP 1910, etc. I'm finding that some users are extremely aggressive when it comes to sharing their thoughts on these new devices. Instead of pointing out why THEY like the device and leaving at that, they are questioning/attacking other users for not agreeing with them. Guys, this has to stop (and, yes, I know that this is something I historically have a problem with, but I'm in therapy :lol:). <br /><br />Messages that are too aggressive in this manner will simply be deleted - they don't belong on this board. Not everything requires a response in life - sometimes it's better to sit back and listen than to open your mouth and speak (a hard lesson for me to learn).<br /><br />Fact is, all of these devices are too new to really speak intelligently about, and the reviews are just starting to trickle in. And, frankly, it someone says they want the Viewsonic device because of the way it smells, let them. Don't argue, don't accuse, don't try to "teach" them the "truth". Device choice is a very personal thing, and everyone here should feel free to explain why they prefer one device over another without fearing they'll get pounced upon and "corrected".<br /><br />This also holds true for those of you who can't seem to grasp that different devices exist for different markets. Here's something you should write down: "Not everyone is like me. People are different. People are special." :wink: My point here is that while you may look at a low-end Pocket PC and scoff, it might be perfect for someone else. And while you may curse the thought of spending $700 on a high-end Pocket PC, others have been waiting for just that. Don't apply your device criteria to someone else - let them make up their own mind. Don't assume that everyone else is stupid and that if you quote specs often enough, they'll agree with you.<br /><br />Let's try to be positive. :D I like that people can express their opinions on this site, but sometimes it's better to say nothing instead of telling someone why their dream device sucks. M'kay? 8)

[Monty Gibson]

I just wish someone would answer my question of "Can I install Money for PocketPC on an SD card!" I'd be happy even it was "Yes, you friggin' idiot! What the $%@# is your problem for asking a @#$%@^& stupid question like that!" At least I'd have an answer :lol:

[Bob Anderson]

My goodness, are you asking us to be civil?

I thought that wasn't politically correct anymore :wink:

I applaud your statements.

By the way, I can already hear someone complaining about being "censored" on this site... because an overly negative post will be deleted. You know what? WHO CARES! If you don't like it, go read something else! No one told you that you HAD to come here!!

(OOPS... was this too harsh?)

Jason does such a good job with this site, I don't want anything or anyone jeopardizing our chances of having this great forum available for some time to come. Let's stay positive and rejoice in all the goodness that is coming to the PPC world! We've been waiting a long time to have this kind of product range available....

[KyleC]

My favourite Pocket PC is the Toshiba e310. The Toshiba e310 is the best there is - it clearly outperforms all other Pocket PCs. Specification wise, the Toshiba e310 surpasses all other Pocket PCs, and you'd have to be an idiot not to see that. the Toshiba e310 is also cheaper than other Pocket PCs, and that's really what matters. No, I haven't actually held the Toshiba e310 in my hands, nor have I seen any direct comparisons to other Pocket PCs (like Viewsonic or Asus Razor), but come on, THINK about it would you? How can you possibly prefer other Pocket PCs when it's SOOOOO obvious that the Toshiba e310 is the best? Did you eat lead paint chips as a child? Your reasons for liking anything other than the Toshiba e310 are stupid! Can't you read the specs I'm posting? Why are you making me repeat myself? the Toshiba e310 is the only choice for anyone with two ounces of grey matter!

Let's try to be positive. :D I like that people can express their opinions on this site, but sometimes it's better to say nothing instead of telling someone why their dream device sucks. M'kay? 8)

M'kay. 8) The reason why I like yellow, I mean the e310, is because it is more than just a PDA. I shelled out $400 for it like a week before it went $150, but yet I didn't return it. Why? I had already bonded with it, and I wasn't letting go. Of course, specwise there are "better" ones out there, but they just continued the revolutionary tangent that the e310 had made. Anyway, here it is: you folks buy your own PDAs, but don't come crying to me later. M'kay? 8)

[KyleC]

Jason does such a good job with this site, I don't want anything or anyone jeopardizing our chances of having this great forum available for some time to come. Let's stay positive and rejoice in all the goodness that is coming to the PPC world! We've been waiting a long time to have this kind of product range available....

Hear, Hear!

[Gremmie]

I just wish someone would answer my question of "Can I install Money for PocketPC on an SD card!" I'd be happy even it was "Yes, you friggin' idiot! What the $%@# is your problem for asking a @#$%@^& stupid question like that!" At least I'd have an answer :lol:

Depends, if they give you Pocket Money on the CD then you can. Just install it, and when it asks to install to the default directory, say no, and choose storage card. :) By the way, the best color is blue. I don't need that expensive red, blue does me fine.

[Foo Fighter]

Personally, I think you're all nuts. I'm positive about that. :wink:

[JornadaJ]

There was a time when I was an Admin on a EW-Two-style "talker." (I am pretty much dating myself, huh?)

Anyway, one of our tools was banning someone for a temporary basis. A few hours for first offense, a day for second, so forth.

Or we can offer them the money and the hammer... :grinning devil:

Just an idea...

[Paul P]

I agree, lets focus on the real enemy here........Palm. Attacking our own will accomplish nothing. :lol:

[Foo Fighter]

Attacking our own will accomplish nothing. :lol:

No, but it makes for good entertainment. Like watching a pack of piranhas eat each other alive. Have at thee. :lol:

[enemy2k2]

Have a fighting forum? Where dogmas collide. Overzealous PDA punks no holds barred bar room brawls? That would be interesting to see... might be a waste of bandwidth though. Just an idea :D

BTW - I like purple myself 8O

[Sven Johannsen]

Yellow, you must be kidding. Green is where it's at. (where it's at? sheesh where did that come from?) Heck you take the blue out of green and what have you got?....yup yellow.

I just chalk it up to us Americans who haven't gotten out of the election mode yet. You know, where it is more important to expalin how lousy the other guy is, rather than how good you are.

[jmulder]

Thanks, Jason. I was getting tired of the "it doesn't have x so the market will never accept it" arguments as well.

We all have things that are important to us. Thanks for reminding us that those things may not be important to others.

Keep up the good work,

-Jim

[KyleC]

I agree, let's focus on the real enemy here........Palm. Attacking our own will accomplish nothing. :lol:

Ok: The Palm Operating System is the root of all evil. Palm (and their associates) brainwash the public with twisted statistics that somehow show that their OS is better. It has so little inside it, and Palm is focusing all their efforts in saying that a $500 electronic date book is SO much better than a $200 "Pocket PC". Palm is loosing market share because people aren't as dumb as they used to be in believing Palm's lies. :wink:

Anyway, I hope this will shed some light on something that all of us knows but none has said.

The real reason we attack fellow Pocket PCs is because it is useless to attack Palm - nobody here would DARE DEFEND Palm, so we must cause a little excitement. Why? We have fake news about a Wi-Fi spray enhancer. I'd say there is a real slowdown in the news.

[xbalance]

I agree with Jason. I think bashing other people's preferences is bad.

I confess I have been a little critical of one of the to be released Pocket PCs by HP. I think I even might have said that the Product Manager of this particular product should be fired and their desk shot. I can see where that might be taken as personal by someone that was thinking of laying out their hard earned [fill in currency] for this product (though I still think the total number of people who will make that choice is going to be very small).

I for one will do my part to be more respectful of those with different preferences than myself.

[Foo Fighter]

Palm is loosing market share because people aren't as dumb as they used to be in believing Palm's lies.

Palm and Sony are stealing considerable marketshare back from Pocket PC. In fact, Sony recently surpassed HP as the number 2 handheld maker. PalmOS has clearly regained some traction, and the slide in marketshare is probably over, at least for the immediate future.

[Kirkaiya]

I think we should stick to attacking each other on less controversial topics... you know, like religion, abortion, and politics?

:twisted:

Or, better yet, pick somebody (I recommend Foo Fighter) to be the designated forum scapegoat, as profiled in http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame68.html. After all, Foo gets blamed for everything anyway!!!

*teasing!*

[Ed Hansberry]

Yellow? Are you insane? you didn't even spell “color” correctly. And everyone knows red is the best color! :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Wuss912]

"This also holds true for those of you who can't seem to grasp that different devices exist for different markets. Here's something you should write down: "Not everyone is like me. People are different. People are special." :wink: My point here is that while you may look at a low-end Pocket PC and scoff, it might be perfect for someone else. And while you may curse the thought of spending $700 on a high-end Pocket PC, others have been waiting for just that. Don't apply your device criteria to someone else - let them make up their own mind. Don't assume that everyone else is stupid and that if you quote specs often enough, they'll agree with you.

Shouldent the Same Level of reasoning Apply to the Palm vs Pocket PC Wars?

[Ed Hansberry]

We have fake news about a Wi-Fi spray enhancer. I'd say there is a real slowdown in the news.
I'd have posted that even if we had 50 newsworthy items. It was in the OT section. This is why you can filter out the front page to only include sections you want. Simply remove Off Topic from your screen.

[Paul P]

We have fake news about a Wi-Fi spray enhancer. I'd say there is a real slowdown in the news.
I'd have posted that even if we had 50 newsworthy items. It was in the OT section. This is why you can filter out the front page to only include sections you want. Simply remove Off Topic from your screen.

Hey, hey, you guys. Didn't we just learn something? No bashing.

(sorry, just wanted that 100th post)

[jgrnt1]

I think the people with big mouths are just compensating for something..... :mrgreen:

[Foo Fighter]

Or, better yet, pick somebody (I recommend Foo Fighter) to be the designated forum scapegoat,

Yeah, that works for me. "Fogive them father, for they know not what they post" :P

[jgrnt1]

Maybe we should only post when we have something to say....but that would probably kill most forums. :wink:

[jim s]

Yeah, but does yellow have a transreflective screen?

Just wondering....

[jgrnt1]

Yeah, but does yellow have a transreflective screen?

Just wondering....

And how many colors does yellow display? Is it 16-bit yellow, or just 12-bit?

[Kati Compton]

For my money, I'd really rather have a faster color than yellow. Purple's definitely the way to go at the high-end, but I can't afford it.

So I vote blue.

[psyfactor]

Personally, I think you're all nuts. I'm positive about that. :wink:

Who on this board is not? :lol:

[cpoole]

Yellow? Are you insane? you didn't even spell “color” correctly. And everyone knows red is the best color! :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thats the thing about Canadians... we spell like the British and we speak like the Americans. :wink:

[ECOslin]

I like Gray and I'm just as much nuts as anyone here. Gray is composed of many colors like white except it uses less battery power.

Oh, and lets argue about pda thicknesses of tenths and hundredth of an inch some more.

Edward

[ThomasC22]

For my money, I'd really rather have a faster color than yellow. Purple's definitely the way to go at the high-end, but I can't afford it.

So I vote blue.

I like blue too, because it's got dual hues eventhough it can be a little thicker than yellow or red.

[jgrnt1]

If you look at this from a martial arts perspective, yellow is pretty low on the totem pole.....

[jpaq]

Yellow? Are you insane? you didn't even spell “color” correctly. And everyone knows red is the best color! :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thats the thing about Canadians... we spell like the British and we speak like the Americans. :wink:

And smell like the French?

OH NO! I didn't. OK. I did. But it was funny.
:lol:

[Peter Foot]

No, I'm going to buck the trend and say Green, and I am unanimous on that. :D

[jpaq]

Well, I heard that brown was going to be released soon but only in Europe and Asia. No word yet on the U.S. or Canada.

[ThomasC22]

No, I haven't gone insane. :wink: The above is a fictional, but fairly accurate, representation of what has been going on in the forums over the past two weeks. But instead of "yellow", insert any model of new Pocket PC - Dell Axim X5, Viewsonic V35, HP 1910, etc. I'm finding that some users are extremely aggressive when it comes to sharing their thoughts on these new devices. Instead of pointing out why THEY like the device and leaving at that, they are questioning/attacking other users for not agreeing with them. Guys, this has to stop (and, yes, I know that this is something I historically have a problem with, but I'm in therapy :lol:).

Messages that are too aggressive in this manner will simply be deleted - they don't belong on this board. Not everything requires a response in life - sometimes it's better to sit back and listen than to open your mouth and speak (a hard lesson for me to learn).

Let's try to be positive. :D I like that people can express their opinions on this site, but sometimes it's better to say nothing instead of telling someone why their dream device sucks. M'kay? 8)

OK, on to the serious stuff, but first a little disclaimer....

I realize that this is your forum and in being so you are in your rights to delete my posts, account, etc... Further, if I feel that you're too heavy handed I have the right to simply not come. I say this to make the point that I'm not getting angry and attacking you as much as I'm trying to open your mind to a different way of thinking.

That being said, the worse thing that could happen to a forum is that everyone gets positive. Sounds like a sad commentary on life in general I know but the truth of the matter is that the very essence of discussion is disagreement. Further that's a good thing.

Even when it gets a little heated you have to keep things in perspective. I mean really people, this is an online message board, if someone yells at you, ignore them and they'll go away. It's A WEBSITE, they can't get in your face or keep calling you or anything like that.

The truth of the matter is that some people enjoy a heated discussion, as long as it doesn't degrade to personal attacks I don't see what's wrong with attacking the features on a device. Futher, what's right about it, is that your mind can be changed. I thought a biometric scanner was THE stupidest thing I'd ever heard of yesterday morning but now I'm really starting to consider the iPaq 5400 series for just that reason and had I not participated in one of the heated discussions in question here I wouldn't have known that.

This is important, I understand more about why a biometric scanner is important and a worthwhile feature BECAUSE I questioned Pony99CA's positive view of it. Had I sat back with my mouth shut, he wouldn't have had to defend his opinion, and I wouldn't have been convinced.

The core of the problem, I think (if I might play psycho-analyst for a minute) is that you Jason, as the proprietor of this site, feel you need to protect people on it even if they don't ask out of some misguided guilt over everything that happens here. I think most, if not all, of the posters here are fully capable of defending themselves and if they are offended removing themself from the conversation.

I'm not saying there should be no rules whatsoever, but there's a BIG difference between attacking a person and attacking a device that the person likes and the latter is actually healthy.

[jgrnt1]

Thats the thing about Canadians... we spell like the British and we speak like the Americans. :wink:

The only Americans that Canadians speak like are from Minnesota and North Dakota....but then they're really Canandians anyway. :)

[Jeff Rutledge]

Thats the thing about Canadians... we spell like the British and we speak like the Americans. :wink:

The only Americans that Canadians speak like are from Minnesota and North Dakota....but then they're really Canandians anyway. :)

We want their taxes then...we need it. (jk) :wink:

[Jeff Rutledge]

Thats the thing about Canadians... we spell like the British and we speak like the Americans. :wink:

The only Americans that Canadians speak like are from Minnesota and North Dakota....but then they're really Canandians anyway. :)

We want their taxes then...we need it. (jk) :wink:

Plus, blue is obviously the best colour. Anyone who doesn't agree simply doesn't have al the facts.

[Kati Compton]

Well, I heard that brown was going to be released soon but only in Europe and Asia. No word yet on the U.S. or Canada.

Just for the record, I don't like the UPS slogan "What can brown do for you?"

To me it sounds vaguely crass.

[Kati Compton]

Thats the thing about Canadians... we spell like the British and we speak like the Americans. :wink:

The only Americans that Canadians speak like are from Minnesota and North Dakota....but then they're really Canandians anyway. :)

The Wisconsinites are half-Canadian...

[Steven Cedrone]

Blue is Made in Malaysia, by Malaysians. Not intended for use by Malaysians... :twisted:

[Kati Compton]

Thats the thing about Canadians... we spell like the British and we speak like the Americans. :wink:

1. Why do Canadians use the extra "u"s if they can't pronounce them right? (at least, if they're from the eastern half...)

2. Americans use "z" more than the Canadians and the Brits ("ise" vs "ize"), so we should be able to name the letter "zee" instead of "zed".

;)

That being said, it sucks that we in America can't get Aero bars. And no, not Smarties either, but I'm not as interested in those. Every once in a while I visit Canada to get (or have a Canadian friend bring me) Coke (Canadian coke uses sugar instead of corn syrup...) and Aero bars...

Oh, and boy I wish that Claritin was OTC and cheaper here the way it is in Canada!

- Kati

.... I'm not prejudiced - some of my best friends are Canadian ....

[Paragon]

I'm colour blind!

[Ed Hansberry]

I'm colour blind!
Oh, you use a Palm? :wink: :scatter: :onfire:

[Will T Smith]

I agree, lets focus on the real enemy here........Palm. Attacking our own will accomplish nothing. :lol:

Just remember, Palm is "just right" for a lot of people too. Palm has rightfully dominated the low end of the market. Some of these $300 devices will now start to target this market.

[Will T Smith]

First, let me say that I've done my share of iPaq bashing (largely in the context of the iPaq over Jornada HP decision). And I apologize if I offended anyone who was bashing my Jornada :-)

Perhaps a good board feature would be a button on each post for citations of offensiveness. This would be a good feedback for folks who tend to go overboard. It's also a good way to identify "frequent flamers" etc...

Just a thought.

[fyiguy]

:!: Wow they have monocolor PPC's in your choice of colors!!! :!:

And I thought my days staring at a green or amber only screen had ended... :roll:

Where can we get one?? Or is this a limited edition model???

And I only thought the world saw things in Black and White...

You learn something new everyday...


Dave(Paragon Again) are you red/green or blue/yellow color blind?
Me, I just forget to open my eyes sometimes...

This blinking thing is hard to coordinate sometimes...

Good thread Jason... it is good to see some humor(humour) with a point still exists.

[yawanag]

I agree, lets focus on the real enemy here........Palm. Attacking our own will accomplish nothing. :lol:

I'm in the same camp with you. I only have negative things to say about Palm. Can't imagine why anyone would want one. I'm the owner of a T-Mobile now but I felt the same way with my HP Jornada 548.

[xbalance]

I'm not saying there should be no rules whatsoever, but there's a BIG difference between attacking a person and attacking a device that the person likes and the latter is actually healthy.

YES! That is it! I love bashing the products when I think the products should be bashed. I never bash the people.

The iPaq 1910 is over priced and under powered. Dell is going to eat this product for snack. Come on people, change my mind, I dare ya. And if you do, I'll thank you.

YES, that felt good. Thanks ThomasC22.

Dark green rules!

[Paragon]

I'm colour blind!
Oh, you use a Palm? :wink: :scatter: :onfire:

At least you didn't give me a hard time for spelling it RIGHT, Ed. :-)

Dave

[BruceG]

I don't know where kati42 lives, but here in Boston I can get Aero and Smarties at the local supermarket in the international aisle. I even get my kimchee there.

People are different, with different needs and preferences. Personally, I am a low-end user who doesn't have the need for the bells and whistles of the iPAQ 5450. I do think it's pretty cool. When I talk to a potential PDA user, I tell them what it can do and ask them what they think they'd like to use it for - for some, a cheap Palm would have fit their needs; now however, the inexpensive Pocket PCs would serve them much better.

I will be ordering a new device next week, and I have never had as much fun and excitement as from eagerly anticipating the new devices, the features, the prices, the ability to choose the device that suits my needs. In a centrally-planned economy like the old Soviet Union, we would have had one PDA, which certainly would have been the size and weight of a brick.

It's good to push the envelope and ask the questions like why would a PDA need iris recognition. You can attack the facts without attacking the person. Remember, we're here for some serious discussion, but we're also here to have some fun.

BTW, Minnesotans don't speak like Canadians, they speak like Swedes.

[st63z]

Eh, Jason?

Canadians are soo sensitive touchy-feely :roll:

Let us *real* American men debate with gusto and macho posturing...

P.S. That Simpsons "Canadian" episode played yesterday, I think.. pretty funny stuff (because they're true) :D

P.SS. I'm sorry, I'm just not comfortable with all this outright open hostility towards Palm. I mean I don't get it... I like PPC but I don't hate Palm... Heck, Jason's even brainwashed his innocent wife into this line of thinking :wink:

[Kati Compton]

I don't know where kati42 lives, but here in Boston I can get Aero and Smarties at the local supermarket in the international aisle. I even get my kimchee there.

Near Chicago. Our international section has reasonable variety, but not in terms of candy. :(

I will be ordering a new device next week, and I have never had as much fun and excitement as from eagerly anticipating the new devices, the features, the prices, the ability to choose the device that suits my needs.

Which one, might I ask?

[Duncan]

Ever since I started to watch 'Due South' I came to realise that Canadians are just like us (the English) - except for the funny accents, excessive politeness and that whole 'eh' thing (!) - which makes the Canadians an exceptionally civilised country in my book!

Just to prove how educational this thread is - I've finally discovered why US Coke tastes so awful, that Palm hatred (based on opinions here) will be what unites all nations in peace and harmony (if only we could spread the word... and we'll have to do something with dangerous agnostics like Foo of course...) and absolutely none of you have any colour taste - orange is the ONLY colour that matters... all others are just shades...

[ThomasC22]

Eh, Jason?

Canadians are soo sensitive touchy-feely :roll:

Let us *real* American men debate with gusto and macho posturing...

P.S. That Simpsons "Canadian" episode played yesterday, I think.. pretty funny stuff (because they're true) :D


I have to say, I'm very proud that, since becoming active on this site I have significantly reduced my Canada mocking. I'm down to like once a week! (unless I (A) see a mountie or (b) watch the south park movie at which point all bets are off!)

[ThomasC22]

YES! That is it! I love bashing the products when I think the products should be bashed. I never bash the people.

YES, that felt good. Thanks ThomasC22.


Well, thanks for your support :)

Seriously though, this topic is very near to my heart because it's what drove me away from this site in the past. I remember right after the PDABuzz meltdown I came back here and shortly after came this:

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=25857#25857

and I have to say, I'm still a little offended by it. The truth is, the road the hell is paved with good intentions and, as in the above thread, if you get too sensitive you end up causing more trouble than you prevent (ask Steve Bush).

Truth of the matter is I really do like this place and I like participating in the discussion but as these incidents become more and more frequent (not to say that they are but more of an "if" they do) my "fight for whats right no matter what" side comes out and I'm almost sure I'll be forced to leave. :cry:

[Wiggin]

.... I have to say, I'm still a little offended by it.
TC22, you should think more about what offends others, and worry less about what is offending YOU. If we all did that, guess what?? No one gets offended ... even you. :way to go:
Jason (and others who have echoed him) is right. It is possible to offer a contrarian opinion without passing judgment on others. You're a bright guy and I'm sure you figured it out long ago: in matters of opinions and perceptions, everyone is right...there are no wrongs, just differences.

How about you, and I, and everyone treat this place with the same professional courtesy you offer those in your workplace... it'll make the place better for everyone, n'est pas? :wink:

[BruceG]

I don't know where kati42 lives, but here in Boston I can get Aero and Smarties at the local supermarket in the international aisle. I even get my kimchee there.

Near Chicago. Our international section has reasonable variety, but not in terms of candy. :(

I go to Oakbrook a couple of times a year on business. I might be able to get Aero and Smarties in the Boston supermarkets, but no wine or beer. We have "blue laws" that prohibit the sale of alcohol in supermarkets, so we have lots of little "package stores" that sell alcohol. The "packies" are closed on Sunday (except in the towns that border New Hampshire).

I will be ordering a new device next week, and I have never had as much fun and excitement as from eagerly anticipating the new devices, the features, the prices, the ability to choose the device that suits my needs.

Which one, might I ask?

I already have a 256MB CF card that I would like to reuse, and I really don't need BlueTooth or WiFi right now (I'm perfectly happy to download via Mazingo and Avantgo). Someone on this forum posited the idea of getting a low-cost device every year or so, instead of spending a lot of money on a PDA, only to find out that it can't support the new OS that just came out (I liked my HP Jornada, but it was SH3, not ARM, so I got left behind when 2002 came out). That's what I plan to do, as the world of PDAs may be very different a year from now. I got the specs for the various Toshibas, the iPAQs, the ViewSonic, and the Dells. After comparing them against what I would like, I decided to get the 400 MHz Dell. I'll put my order in on Monday.

[ThomasC22]

TC22, you should think more about what offends others, and worry less about what is offending YOU. If we all did that, guess what?? No one gets offended ... even you. :way to go:


OK, and don't take offense at this, but that's the kind of "lets all just be nice to each other" logic that never works. People are going to get offended, if you try to deny that fact you end up making it worse by treating that persons feeling like they were nothing. Remember, the road to hell...


Jason (and others who have echoed him) is right. It is possible to offer a contrarian opinion without passing judgment on others. You're a bright guy and I'm sure you figured it out long ago: in matters of opinions and perceptions, everyone is right...there are no wrongs, just differences.


Well, that isn't so much the case. Don't get me wrong, it isn't like everyone who disagrees with me is right, but there are some people who are just wrong too! Further, it isn't that I'm saying you should beat each other down, I'm simply saying debate (or disagreement) is not in itself bad.


How about you, and I, and everyone treat this place with the same professional courtesy you offer those in your workplace... it'll make the place better for everyone, n'est pas? :wink:

On this I agree, you shouldn't (or more accurately no one should) treat an online enviornment any differently than they would an actual discussion. But at the same time you should take into consideration that it is in fact different in that, if your offended, you can walk away (or click away as the case may be)

[ThomasC22]

.... I have to say, I'm still a little offended by it.
TC22, you should think more about what offends others, and worry less about what is offending YOU.

OK, one more comment here, and I apologize for dragging other people into my debate but I really want to make you see this point...

In the thread I quoted above, take Boxster and Jonathan1's place. The really didn't do anything wrong in the thread and Jason held them up, embarrassed them in front of everyone, and closed the thread not even giving them a chance to give their side.

See, you can't apply simplistic solutions (e.g. everyone should just be nice to eachother) to complex problems (e.g. how do you have an intelligent debate, something even presidential canidates can't get right).

When you do you end up causing more harm than good, again in the above quoted thread, they had already solved their problem and neither of them was all that upset at the other and they hadn't attacked anyone else. Jason, by doing what he did, essentially attacked them causing them harm where there would have been none.

BTW - To Jason if you're reading this - I'm making an intellectual point, and where I hope you are reading this and taking it to heart I don't want you to think I'm attacking you or saying I think your a bad person. In fact, it's just the opposite, I think your a good person who is smart enough to listen to contrary opinions of your actions and hopefully, if I can sucessfully make you see my point, can change.

[Janak Parekh]

BTW - To Jason if you're reading this - I'm making an intellectual point, and where I hope you are reading this and taking it to heart I don't want you to think I'm attacking you or saying I think your a bad person. In fact, it's just the opposite, I think your a good person who is smart enough to listen to contrary opinions of your actions and hopefully, if I can sucessfully make you see my point, can change.
Overall, I don't think Jason's disagreeing with you. He may disagree re the Boxster and Jonathan debate, and that might be best discussed privately; but I think the main point of the post was

Instead of pointing out why THEY like the device and leaving at that, they are questioning/attacking other users for not agreeing with them.
Although, I do have to say that the 5450 and 1900 debates have been pretty civil, for the most part, so I'm not too worried...

I do agree with you that debates are good. That's what drives traffic to this site. We don't want to be overly touchy-feely; a slight combative nature is what creates the character on this board.

--bdj

[Jason Dunn]

&lt;sigh> :?

Sure thing Thomas, :( "make us see your point". This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about - people getting hurtful when they just REALLY REALLY need to force someone to see their point. Intellectual point or not, I find your words hurtful and unnecessary.

The entire point of my post is that I think people can discuss device preferences without degrading other users and becoming angry about them not "seeing their point". I've seen that happening here in the past two weeks, I don't like it, and I wanted to speak to that point. People can disagree and still not turn rude. I'm not saying we all have to hug and agree on everything, but calling someone's point "stupid" because you don't agree with it is simply rude.

Since you don't think that's possible, perhaps this isn't the right online community for you. This is not PDABuzz, nor will it ever be. My goal for this site has always been to create a resource for Pocket PC users, not a war zone for platform/device wars.

To paraphrase a line from Star Wars: "This is not the PDABuzz you're looking for."

[ThomasC22]

Sure thing Thomas, :( "make us see your point". This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about - people getting hurtful when they just REALLY REALLY need to force someone to see their point. Intellectual point or not, I find your words hurtful and unnecessary.


&lt;sigh> Well, a couple things, first let me make the point that I have responded to you privately about this and you should probably read that before you read this...

That being said, I would like to (at least until you shut it down) continue this discussion in public as well simply because I think there are some good points here (some of them even not mine) and I think getting it out in the open will help in the long run.

That being said, I think you're over reacting. I think if you read my posts you'll see that I was never trying to hurt you and in fact was trying to make my point without hurting you.

Second, as I said to you privately, if I were acting in a way that was hurtful to others I would like people to tell me and that is what I did with you. I could, and maybe should, have done it privately but being that you brought it up in a public forum I just responded.

To give you an example, I HAVE been one of the people who have called people's points stupid, and I realize that even though I don't mean to attack people with it it's taken that way (e.g. I call their point stupid not them stupid and I am not so foolish as to not realize that many of my points have been stupid over the years). Accordingly I've tried to prevent myself from doing that.

My main point though is the thread quoted above...don't you see that things were resolved and no one was angry at anyone until you jumped in?

Bottom line: There are people who do good and people who want to appear to do good but don't think through their actions and end up causing harm, which do you want to be?


Since you don't think that's possible, perhaps this isn't the right online community for you. This is not PDABuzz, nor will it ever be. My goal for this site has always been to create a resource for Pocket PC users, not a war zone for platform/device wars.


This is where I do take offense and although I said this in private I wanted to say it in public as well, if you're mad at me, be mad at me, that's fine. But don't drag the good name of PDABuzz (the old PDABuzz) through the mud because of it. PDABuzz was a great site and you yourself have said as much many times in the past.

[Jason Dunn]

I give up. :?

Why can't people email me privately about these things? Public, it's always so public...why do certain people get off on chastising me in public? It's not very fun ya know. :(

[ThomasC22]

I give up. :?

Why can't people email me privately about these things? Public, it's always so public...why do certain people get off on chastising me in public? It's not very fun ya know. :(

I did email you privately and I'm not trying to chastise you in public...

The point I'm trying to make is that discussion and occasional disagreement is not necessarily wrong...it's healthy and it helps people change their mind and discover new things. The whole reason I posted originally in this thread was to point out that Pony99CA had changed my mind, I saw the value in something I would have never seen before because he debated with me and convinced me.

As for Public vs. Private, here's the bottom line for me. I could, and very possible am, wrong here. Debate, the ability to exchange ideas with people and to learn is the most important thing I will ever know how to do and if there's a better way, I want to know. I want to proven wrong...but to do this people have to actually tell me "Look, this was your point and you're wrong, here's why..."

You haven't done that, I've tried to do that for you but you haven't returned the favor you've simply thrown accusations (e.g. saying I'm trying to hurt you which I really am not).

Further, as I said earlier in this thread and in my private message to you, I actually like you as a person if I didn't I wouldn't care what you do (what do I care that people I don't like destroy themselves).

Think about it...

[Iznot Gold]

I live a mile from the factory that makes your favourite chocolates! When the wind blows in the right direction the air here is lightly chocolate scented! If you go to the factory you can buy vast boxes of cosmetically reject Smarties for very little money....but I'd swap all of that to be able to buy PDA's & accessories for the same cost as on your side of the pond.
Kindest regards
David :lol:

[avoglio]

I'm colour blind!
Oh, you use a Palm? :wink: :scatter: :onfire:

Naa, he is already working on the 3G PDA where such simple color specs are no longer essential ;)

[Pony99CA]

That being said, it sucks that we in America can't get Aero bars. And no, not Smarties either, but I'm not as interested in those.

Actually, Smarties are very popular in the U.S. The problem (for you) is that they're not the same Smarties. In the U.S., Smarties are little, chalky, disc-shaped candies (a bit like SweeTarts), not like the U.K. Smarties, which are candy-coated chocolate (like M&Ms)

Have you tried M&Ms? If so, please compare and contrast. I know Smarties come in more colors, but that's about all I know about them.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

Perhaps a good board feature would be a button on each post for citations of offensiveness. This would be a good feedback for folks who tend to go overboard. It's also a good way to identify "frequent flamers" etc...

Just a thought.
I like that! It could be like eBay's user rankings. People who post useful content get highly rated, people who just troll get rated lowly. Then you could add a filter to only show posts from people with a given rating. :-)

The only issue is newbie rankings. Do you start newbies with a neutral rating, or do they start with the highest rating so they won't get filtered just because they're new by people setting a higher-than-neutral filter?

Steve

[Pony99CA]

I realize that this is your forum and in being so you are in your rights to delete my posts, account, etc... Further, if I feel that you're too heavy handed I have the right to simply not come.

We're all free to not come for any reason. :lol:


The truth of the matter is that some people enjoy a heated discussion, as long as it doesn't degrade to personal attacks I don't see what's wrong with attacking the features on a device. Futher, what's right about it, is that your mind can be changed. I thought a biometric scanner was THE stupidest thing I'd ever heard of yesterday morning but now I'm really starting to consider the iPaq 5400 series for just that reason and had I not participated in one of the heated discussions in question here I wouldn't have known that.

This is important, I understand more about why a biometric scanner is important and a worthwhile feature BECAUSE I questioned Pony99CA's positive view of it. Had I sat back with my mouth shut, he wouldn't have had to defend his opinion, and I wouldn't have been convinced.

I have to give you credit --.you're one of the few people I've seen admit that they had their mind changed by a debate, especially a somewhat heated debate.


I'm not saying there should be no rules whatsoever, but there's a BIG difference between attacking a person and attacking a device that the person likes and the latter is actually healthy.

I do agree with that -- healthy debate is a good thing. I'll also be the first to admit that I'm not the most tactful person at all times (or most times :-)). (I attack people in my favorite social room on AOL if they're obviously just there trying to scam on women, and I consider it sport. :-D)

However, I think Jason is saying there's also a big difference between attacking a device and criticizing a device, and, in his opinon, the debate has gone beyond "healthy". For example, saying you don't see the point of a biometric scanner is just criticizing the device at worst and seeking knowledge about its advantages at best; saying the feature is "stupid" is attacking the device.

Also, people do tend to personalize their creations and possessions. Saying the biometric scanner is "stupid" could well offend some of the people who designed the 5450, as well as potentially offending those of us considering buying them. Calling a feature we may like "stupid" could easily be taken as an attack on those who don't find the feature stupid. I'm not saying they're right in being offended, just that I can see how some people would be.

Look at it like this. If someone showed up here and said "Pocket PC Thoughts is the stupidest Pocket PC site around", don't you think Jason would be rightfully offended by that? The comment was not constructive nor was it tactful, so what's the point in making it?

Jason has a very tough job -- balancing his likes and dislikes with those of the myriad users here. Sometimes I think he could be a bit thicker skinned, but I suspect I would be touchy about some things if I ran this site, too. I realize that it's his site, and we're his guests in a sense. Given that, I think it's our obligation to respect his point of view more than it's his obligation to respect ours.

Steve

"Being politically correct is a good thing? What has ever been correct about politics?" -- Pony99CA

[Paragon]

Actually, Smarties are very popular in the U.S. The problem (for you) is that they're not the same Smarties. In the U.S., Smarties are little, chalky, disc-shaped candies (a bit like SweeTarts), not like the U.K. Smarties, which are candy-coated chocolate (like M&Ms)

Have you tried M&Ms? If so, please compare and contrast. I know Smarties come in more colors, but that's about all I know about them.

Steve

Now I know why Canada is a superior country. Our Smarties are chocolate inside.

[shawnc]

"

Let's try to be positive. :D I like that people can express their opinions on this site, but sometimes it's better to say nothing instead of telling someone why their dream device sucks. M'kay? 8)

I'm fairly new to the site and I will admit when I first starting reading the post I was dissapointed by some of the personal attacks that were made. But after a while it was evident that most of what I considered innapproiate came from a very small, albiet vocal, minority. As a non-techie, I have gotten a considerable amount of very useful information from this site. MOST of the folks who post are helpful and post with wit and humor. As for the minority who always seem to need to attack, my experience is that some people can only feel good about themselves when they are able to belittle others.

You do a GREAT job on this site Jason. My guess is most folks don't take the small number of people who engage in personal attacks very seriously. If I were you, I wouldn't start trying to monitor their postings. You've probably got all you can handle as it is.

Just my opinion. Keep up the good work!

[Ed Hansberry]

and I have to say, I'm still a little offended by it. The truth is, the road the hell is paved with good intentions and, as in the above thread, if you get too sensitive you end up causing more trouble than you prevent (ask Steve Bush).

Truth of the matter is I really do like this place and I like participating in the discussion but as these incidents become more and more frequent (not to say that they are but more of an "if" they do) my "fight for whats right no matter what" side comes out and I'm almost sure I'll be forced to leave. :cry:

It is a about balance Thomas and every once in a while, people go too far with their criticism until it gets personal. And the criticism on the new devices in pretty silly given until yesterday, no one hand really held one of the sub-$300 devices so everything was based on info published by CNET or another online mag. Each device has a target market. Everyone won't like the Dell, or the 1910 or the V35 or the 5450, regardless of the price of any of them. There are some Pocket PCs I wouldn't own that you may love. Other than the EM-500, I never held a Casio I would use daily, and the EM-500 was very short lived for me. Others love the Casios though - which is great. Too bad not enough did though, and now Casio is gone. There are even people I continue to recommend Palm OS devices for, thought that will change if the $100-$150 Samsung reference design sees the light of day.

Leave your psychobable to yourself. Jason didn't ask to be analyzed. He asked for some manners and considerate thought of your fellow community members at PPCT. If that offends you, you know where the door is.

[Kirkaiya]

Since ThomasC22 wants to keep this public, I will -

And here is my criticism of the way you (ThomasC22) are handling this whole thing.

First of all - I'm starting to believe that the issue isn't that you over-attack devices so much, as that you have some compulsion with "having the last word". Geesh, just let it go already.

Every time Jason makes some minor post, you respond with a lengthy, preachy diatribute, which makes subtle but not unnoticed allusions to other's intelligence, integrity, etc.

You are a very bright individual, obviously, and very well informed on a lot of topics, and it would be a shame if you left. I honestly think that. I know I personally have a history of sometimes using a reasonably proficient command of the language in a way that I can defend as being non-inflammatory technically, while at the same time still "twisting the knife" a bit.

And, I think you're wrong - it IS possible to have a board where nearly everybody essentially gets along, shares info, and even gets into debates over the merits of devices, without resorting to implying that the other person's intelligence is on trial.

In your previous post, you did just that to Jason - you said, in so many words, that you assume he is smart enough to understand your point and change. The implication being that, if he doesn't change his mind, his intelligence must be lacking.

That kind of post is manipulative, and uncalled for. If you really want to prove that healthy debate is good for the forum, try just NOT responding to THIS POST (my post), and just dropping the issue. This "debate" has ceased to be healthy.

You must know that Jason probably *doesn't* want to lose you as a forum contributor, but the fact that you are quite articulate makes you quite intimidating to others. Do everyone, including you, a favor, and don't use your powers for evil :-)

I'm really not trying to be overly harsh, but not everybody has the thick skin I was born with (or developed!), and which I presume you possess as well. Personally, I will go face to face with anyone, and not get offended at anything, but not everybody is so immune - and since this is a forum for everyone, we can all learn to hold our stingers in a bit.

So there - that's my piece. I'm not going to contribute to this debate further. I'm hoping you'll just not respond to me, but either way, provoking people who are gentler than You or I is not going to further your point.

[Ed Hansberry]

.... I have to say, I'm still a little offended by it.
TC22, you should think more about what offends others, and worry less about what is offending YOU.

OK, one more comment here, and I apologize for dragging other people into my debate but I really want to make you see this point...

Couple of other points.
1. The first ammendment does not apply here. So don't go there. Two reasons for that. A) This is a site owned by a Canadian and they don't have the US Consittution. B) This is a private site and Jason's rules are the only rules that apply.
2. While you can say what you want within reason, no one has to listen, and I sure as hell don't have to see your point. Period.

Say your piece and let it hang out there. This isn't a rally and there isn't a pending vote that you are trying to get people swayed to voting with you. You want to run a site with your rules and want to make people see your point, start at www.register.com for a domain name. www.makeyouseemypoint.com is available.

[Kati Compton]

That being said, it sucks that we in America can't get Aero bars. And no, not Smarties either, but I'm not as interested in those.

Actually, Smarties are very popular in the U.S. The problem (for you) is that they're not the same Smarties. In the U.S., Smarties are little, chalky, disc-shaped candies (a bit like SweeTarts), not like the U.K. Smarties, which are candy-coated chocolate (like M&Ms)

Have you tried M&Ms? If so, please compare and contrast. I know Smarties come in more colors, but that's about all I know about them.

Steve

I was using Canada-speak for "Smarties". The Canadian Smarties are not available in the US, with a few exceptions of places that sell international candies (apparently), and I can't find them around here. I'm tempted to order from BBCAmerica.com, but I think the Aero's are something like $2 apiece on there.

The difference between M&M's and Smarties: Smarties are bigger and flatter and have a slightly thicker candy coating. Think of something closer to Spree (another candy, just in case it's not a universal reference... ;) ) in shape but a little thinner.. I find the color gets on hands slightly more with M&M's than Smarties, but not significantly.

And on a hike in British Columbia up to Garibaldi Lake a friend and I discovered that birds only *think* they want Smarties... ;)

[Kati Compton]

I like that! It could be like eBay's user rankings. People who post useful content get highly rated, people who just troll get rated lowly. Then you could add a filter to only show posts from people with a given rating. :-)

The only issue is newbie rankings. Do you start newbies with a neutral rating, or do they start with the highest rating so they won't get filtered just because they're new by people setting a higher-than-neutral filter?


Of course you could end up with someone down-rating another person's posts out of spite/dislike/etc.

Then we have the question of what isn't useful to one person may be useful to another - it can be subjective. I think a system like this could work, but you'd have to be *very* careful about the way it's implemented. May not be worth the stress/worry over whether or not it's set up right, dealing with disagreements among forum members who think the criteria should be different, etc.

[ThomasC22]

OK, one blanket reply, I wish this could be an intelligent debate and I think some people have made some good points that I'd like to respond to and discuss in the hopes that, rather than this being "I attacked Jason" (which I still don't see that I did)it can maybe be about the original point...


However, I think Jason is saying there's also a big difference between attacking a device and criticizing a device, and, in his opinon, the debate has gone beyond "healthy". For example, saying you don't see the point of a biometric scanner is just criticizing the device at worst and seeking knowledge about its advantages at best; saying the feature is "stupid" is attacking the device.


I realize that, and the truth is I don't think I really even disagree with Jason in most of what he said...and like I said in my previous post...I've been one of those guilty of the "stupid" comments regarding peoples ideas and I've tried to do that less. My point though is that there has to be some distinction between attacking somone's opinion and attacking that person.


It is a about balance Thomas and every once in a while, people go too far with their criticism until it gets personal.


But see, that was my point. When things get personal and people start insulting each other that is wrong. But if you're going to say that every time you insult someones device you then insult someone's person then you're essentially making EVERY discussion personal and that makes things worse.


First of all - I'm starting to believe that the issue isn't that you over-attack devices so much, as that you have some compulsion with "having the last word". Geesh, just let it go already.

Every time Jason makes some minor post, you respond with a lengthy, preachy diatribute, which makes subtle but not unnoticed allusions to other's intelligence, integrity, etc.

Sorry to respond, but Thank You for giving me at least a few examples of where you think I went wrong, it's important and rather than just insulting me without backing you actually gave me something to think about and I appreciate it.

But I would like to make two points (A) show me any place where I insulted Jason's intelligence. I did just the opposite in fact.

(B) If a man's walking off cliff with his fingers in his ears saying "LALALA" at the top of his voice would you critisize the guy trying to talk him out of it?

and NO, that isn't an allusion to anyone's intelligence, I have certainly walked off my fair share of cliffs in my day...



Couple of other points.
1. The first ammendment does not apply here. So don't go there. Two reasons for that. A) This is a site owned by a Canadian and they don't have the US Consittution. B) This is a private site and Jason's rules are the only rules that apply.
2. While you can say what you want within reason, no one has to listen, and I sure as hell don't have to see your point. Period.


I never said anyone HAD to do ANYTHING! Further, I was ASKING people to TRY to see my point. Futher still, had Jason simply E-Mailed me/PMed me and said lets discuss this privately this would have been over. What he did was the E-Mail me/PM me and then attacked me in public. Now, I don't fault him for that because he thought I was attacking him and felt the need to response, but for all of you to then attack me for trying to make my point is kind of sad and contrary to your whole point of Civility.

That is my point, you said in your post Ed that there is no vote, no rally, but there is. The reason I'm pushing this is because it is the first steps to being Brighthand, when you start associating people's opinions with there person you can't help but insult the person in a debate.

Until you separate the two, you'll just be attacking eachother right and left, just like people think I attacked Jason here. I didn't, further I said I think he's a good person and that I just disagreed with something he said. Further, the whole reason that this thread seems so bad is because everyone thinks I'm attacking Jason as a person, which is what happens when you don't understand the separation.

Think about it, what would happen if, in congress they were debating a bill and the owner of the bill said "I won't put up with you attacking me" and walked out? Does that seem reasonable?

Look guys, if you're insistent on making this about attacking people then I can't stop you and you're right we can't continue here. But if your willing to be civil and discuss that I think it's an important point to discuss.

'nuff said.

[Kati Compton]

At the risk of getting in trouble or making things worse...

1. The "heated arguments" seem to me to be a small fraction of the posts on this board. As such, I would suspect that they are not worsening the experience of very many people. If they are, it's probably to a lesser degree than what's present at any other board. The only other message sites I've found with less "severe" arguements also have less information as a result, and are actually less interesting. I agree, however, that there are different ways to debate, and that we should all try to be on our best behavior.

2. I think one of the issues here is that intent is difficult to convey over a text-based medium. I've personally had many a fight (in my old BBSing days anyway) over a misinterpretation of what someone wrote, where one of us thought that the other was more upset (either hurt or angry) than they actually were. I suggest that to some extent this has happened here with what ThomasC22 is saying, as I don't see what he said to be as inflammatory as apparently others do. That isn't to say that I fully agree with him, though.

3. Actually, I think that *some* the responses to ThomasC22 (and I will say I am *not* including the ones from Jason) look to me to be actually far more cruel, inflammatory, and just generally insulting than the ones he was writing. Those are actually the only posts on this thread that that made me flinch - a number of them seem downright mean, which seems especially upsetting to me given that the point of the thread is to ask everyone to be nicer. If the point is that you should be nice to people even if you strongly disagree with what they're saying, then these posts certainly miss the mark.

[R K]

OK, one blanket reply, I wish this could be an intelligent debate and I think some people have made some good points that I'd like to respond to and discuss in the hopes that, rather than this being "I attacked Jason" (which I still don't see that I did)it can maybe be about the original point...

See? This is where I think the critical melting point lies here. Let's think about this. I believe that a majority of the people here believe that you've attacked Jason, and even publicly. Now there are two ways we can go from here. You can continually deny that you've been attacking Jason, and try to sway the opinion of the board into believing this, or you can apologize to Jason and try to be more careful about things like this in the future.

That's where the problem lies. One person's comment may be another man's insult, but will things get resolved if everybody comes out with the "I'm right" mentality?


I realize that, and the truth is I don't think I really even disagree with Jason in most of what he said...and like I said in my previous post...I've been one of those guilty of the "stupid" comments regarding peoples ideas and I've tried to do that less. My point though is that there has to be some distinction between attacking somone's opinion and attacking that person.

But why do we have to attack at all? There is a difference between criticizing and attacking. Just don't attack someone's opion and just don't attack someone's person. You can still criticize politely without attacking.

But see, that was my point. When things get personal and people start insulting each other that is wrong. But if you're going to say that every time you insult someones device you then insult someone's person then you're essentially making EVERY discussion personal and that makes things worse.

Again, see my point above. Why do we have to insult at all? Maybe every discussion is a personal discussion. The point is that when you insult someone's opinions, you might be insulting the person with it. For instance, I can insult and attack your favorite color, and have the potential for making you feel bad for choosing that color as your favorite. Now if I talked to you on a more friendly and kind level, and told you why I thought another color was a better color without attacking your color, then I may have convinced you to switch colors without making you feel insulted.

(B) If a man's walking off cliff with his fingers in his ears saying "LALALA" at the top of his voice would you critisize the guy trying to talk him out of it?

First of all, I think your point is a little exagerated. PDAs and Pocket PCs do not mean the difference between life and death, it only means the difference between a few hundred dollars at best. Secondly, some people are just set in there ways, and no amount of arguing or debating is going to turn them. In this case, you just have to let them go there own way. If you feel like they're walking off a cliff, let them walk and their own experiences with their favorite device will turn them.

Until you separate the two, you'll just be attacking eachother right and left, just like people think I attacked Jason here. I didn't, further I said I think he's a good person and that I just disagreed with something he said. Further, the whole reason that this thread seems so bad is because everyone thinks I'm attacking Jason as a person, which is what happens when you don't understand the separation.

This leads me back to my first and main point. We don't need to be attacking at all, be it someone's person or someone's opinion.
Secondly, if Jason feels attacked, I feel that you should go and apologize to him, even if you feel you did nothing. I could be swinging a knife around in the air and someone can walk by and get it. It's up to me to decide whether to take the next two hours to convince them that it was not my fault and that they shouldn't have walked by, or apologize and get it over with.

[cpoole]

Thats the thing about Canadians... we spell like the British and we speak like the Americans. :wink:

1. Why do Canadians use the extra "u"s if they can't pronounce them right? (at least, if they're from the eastern half...)

2. Americans use "z" more than the Canadians and the Brits ("ise" vs "ize"), so we should be able to name the letter "zee" instead of "zed".

;)

That being said, it sucks that we in America can't get Aero bars. And no, not Smarties either, but I'm not as interested in those. Every once in a while I visit Canada to get (or have a Canadian friend bring me) Coke (Canadian coke uses sugar instead of corn syrup...) and Aero bars...

Oh, and boy I wish that Claritin was OTC and cheaper here the way it is in Canada!

- Kati

.... I'm not prejudiced - some of my best friends are Canadian ....

Re 1) Every time my kids are studying for a spelling test, they ask me the same thing. Also, why is very spelt with one r and berry with 2? I really don't know :?:

As for Smarties, they are more than candy, they are brain food EH :!:

[MooseMaster]

... I just read on article on CNN.COM that said blue was the best color :/

[ThomasC22]

Well, first thanks to Kati for a least helping me to see I'm not completely insane (btw - Kati did not say he agreed with me mind you so don't take anything out on him)

That's where the problem lies. One person's comment may be another man's insult, but will things get resolved if everybody comes out with the "I'm right" mentality?

I see your point and because of your post I did send off a second message to Jason making sure he knew I didn't mean to hurt him and that I did apologize if he felt I had.


But why do we have to attack at all? There is a difference between criticizing and attacking. Just don't attack someone's opion and just don't attack someone's person. You can still criticize politely without attacking.

Well, and this is where I'm confused and I'm really asking for help. I can't see how I didn't criticize Jason politely here. I never called him names, I said I thought he was a good person and just disagreed with him on this point, and I simply said I hoped I could convince him to see my point. Where is the distinction between criticize and attack and when did I cross it?

Again, see my point above. Why do we have to insult at all? Maybe every discussion is a personal discussion.
The point is that when you insult someone's opinions, you might be insulting the person with it.

But see, and I'm SO glad you said this because this is my whole point. Unless you separate your thoughts from your person ever discussion will be personal and every counter point in a debate will be an attack.

[ThomasC22]

EVERYONE PLEASE READ THIS POST

OK, I don't know how to put this...

I'd like to ask people not to support my opinion in this thread. I've appreciated a lot of the E-mails/PMs and it's nice to see that at least some people felt I was not completely out of hand.

That being said I got an E-Mail from a person who's account was locked and who's post was deleted because he supported me here and that bothers me.

NOW WAIT, before everyone goes crazy and says I'm accusing the admin. type people here of doing anything wrong, I'm not. I don't know why this happened to this one person because I didn't read the post and further I think it should be pointed out that MY posts haven't been deleted and MY account has NOT been locked so there are obviously other circumstances here that I don't know.

That being said, no matter how bad this persons post was I just don't want to be responsible for someone not being able to participate on this board. Remember, although I feel these issues are important this is a PocketPC board and that is the primary focus. That is what we're all here to discuss and for someone to have lost that over this thread is sad.

So thanks, but I'd just assume go it alone from now on ...

[Kati Compton]

Well, first thanks to Kati for a least helping me to see I'm not completely insane (btw - Kati did not say he agreed with me mind you so don't take anything out on him)

I'm no "he"! Why do you automatically assume everyone here is male?? That's just indicative of the extreme prejudice in the computing community. How dare you? You must be dumb.




;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)


- Kati (a chick)

[ThomasC22]

I'm no "he"! Why do you automatically assume everyone here is male?? That's just indicative of the extreme prejudice in the computing community. How dare you? You must be dumb.


I'm SO sorry...I...well, you're right. Assuming that is stupid (I know you were joking but I really do feel bad). I won't make that mistake in the future.

Although in all fairness I don't assume all online people are male just that all gadget freaks are male...but hey, a woman who loves a PocketPCs, it's a great thing :wink: (I don't suppose you could explain to my girl friend why I keep spending my money on these "stupid little wannabe PCs" could you? :))

[toshtoshtosh]

Since ThomasC22 wants to keep this public, I will -

And here is my criticism of the way you (ThomasC22) are handling this whole thing.

First of all - I'm starting to believe that the issue isn't that you over-attack devices so much, as that you have some compulsion with "having the last word". Geesh, just let it go already.

Every time Jason makes some minor post, you respond with a lengthy, preachy diatribute, which makes subtle but not unnoticed allusions to other's intelligence, integrity, etc.

You are a very bright individual, obviously, and very well informed on a lot of topics, and it would be a shame if you left. I honestly think that. I know I personally have a history of sometimes using a reasonably proficient command of the language in a way that I can defend as being non-inflammatory technically, while at the same time still "twisting the knife" a bit.

And, I think you're wrong - it IS possible to have a board where nearly everybody essentially gets along, shares info, and even gets into debates over the merits of devices, without resorting to implying that the other person's intelligence is on trial.

In your previous post, you did just that to Jason - you said, in so many words, that you assume he is smart enough to understand your point and change. The implication being that, if he doesn't change his mind, his intelligence must be lacking.

That kind of post is manipulative, and uncalled for. If you really want to prove that healthy debate is good for the forum, try just NOT responding to THIS POST (my post), and just dropping the issue. This "debate" has ceased to be healthy.

You must know that Jason probably *doesn't* want to lose you as a forum contributor, but the fact that you are quite articulate makes you quite intimidating to others. Do everyone, including you, a favor, and don't use your powers for evil :-)

I'm really not trying to be overly harsh, but not everybody has the thick skin I was born with (or developed!), and which I presume you possess as well. Personally, I will go face to face with anyone, and not get offended at anything, but not everybody is so immune - and since this is a forum for everyone, we can all learn to hold our stingers in a bit.

So there - that's my piece. I'm not going to contribute to this debate further. I'm hoping you'll just not respond to me, but either way, provoking people who are gentler than You or I is not going to further your point.

Beautiful! End of discussion.

[Kati Compton]

I'm no "he"! Why do you automatically assume everyone here is male?? That's just indicative of the extreme prejudice in the computing community. How dare you? You must be dumb.


I'm SO sorry...I...well, you're right. Assuming that is stupid (I know you were joking but I really do feel bad). I won't make that mistake in the future.

Hehehehe. Don't worry about it - doesn't bother me a bit. When in doubt, I use "he" as well in computer-related settings, although sometimes I'm more likely to go for the gramatically incorrect "they". "It" would be too insulting... ;) It's funny - I would have thought that the name-ending-with-a-vowel would be a hint for gender - I have a male friend from India who's name is "Chandra" who gets phone calls for "Miss &lt;his lastname>".

Although in all fairness I don't assume all online people are male just that all gadget freaks are male...but hey, a woman who loves a PocketPCs, it's a great thing :wink: (I don't suppose you could explain to my girl friend why I keep spending my money on these "stupid little wannabe PCs" could you? :))

Check out http://www.the-gadgeteer.com - it's a gadget site run by two women.

I'm afraid I can't help you with the girlfriend. Not because she's female, but because explaining a love of gadgets to anyone that doesn't have it is difficult. I maintain that part of the reason why girls aren't as into gadgets is that for children girl toys are less gadget-like than boy toys. Me? I played with Transformers.

As for "loving" Pocket PC's... I'll let you know when I get one (later this month). I got sucked into this site while looking for information on which unit to buy. :)

[Kati Compton]

Beautiful! End of discussion.

Shh!!! I'm trying to change the subject to gender inequality... ;)

[Steven Cedrone]

That being said I got an E-Mail from a person who's account was locked and who's post was deleted because he supported me here and that bothers me.

The person that you are referring to did not have his account locked and his post deleted for supporting you...

Those things were done because of what he said in his post (if you read his post, I don't think you would have been happy that he was on your "side"). He was emailed and told to "cool" off and that his account would be reactivated after he had time to relax...

I promise not to yell at anyone if they want to hijack this thread and take it completely off-topic, this is getting old...

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

[Kati Compton]

I promise not to yell at anyone if they want to hijack this thread and take it completely off-topic, this is getting old.

I'm doing my best - really! I tried with the Candian thing, I tried helping the "I like blue" camp, I tried with the gender issue.... Hmmm.... what else...

Kirk vs. Picard?

Star Trek vs. Star Wars?

Old Kimchee vs. fresh vs. none-I can't stand it?

Diablo vs. Baldur's Gate II?

Chocolate chip cookies vs. oatmeal cookies?

C vs. C++?

Phil Hartman vs. Wil Farrell?

Timothy Dalton's Bond vs. Pierce Brosnan's Bond? (of course Sean Connery would win if I put him in there!)

Pens vs. pencils?

I'm running out of ideas here....

[Steven Cedrone]

I promise not to yell at anyone if they want to hijack this thread and take it completely off-topic, this is getting old.

I'm doing my best - really! I tried with the Candian thing, I tried helping the "I like blue" camp, I tried with the gender issue.... Hmmm.... what else...

Kirk vs. Picard?

Star Trek vs. Star Wars?

Old Kimchee vs. fresh vs. none-I can't stand it?

Diablo vs. Baldur's Gate II?

Chocolate chip cookies vs. oatmeal cookies?

C vs. C++?

Phil Hartman vs. Wil Farrell?

Timothy Dalton's Bond vs. Pierce Brosnan's Bond? (of course Sean Connery would win if I put him in there!)

Pens vs. pencils?

I'm running out of ideas here....

Picard
Trek
None :wink:
Diablo
Chocolate Chip
C++
Phil Hartman
Pierce
Digital Ink

[Kirkaiya]

Kati - I think you'll have to pull out the big guns (Abortion, Relgion, Politics and the intelligence/lack thereof of "Dubya" Bush) to divert this ice-burg-sized annoyance of a thread.

I'm hesitant to tread back in here, especially since someone called a previous post of mine beautiful (really, they did!!), but..... Since some people have the habit of quoting others out of context completely, I think I might have a bit of fun with that as well.. (Sorry Steven... if I'm outa line, just whack me once on the head).

Further, as I said earlier in this thread and in my private message to you, I actually like you as a person if I didn't I wouldn't care what you do (what do I care that people I don't like destroy themselves).

This is implying that Jason is somehow destroying himself


Debate, the ability to exchange ideas with people and to learn is the most important thing I will ever know how to do and if there's a better way, I want to know.

Debate may not be the best way to exchange ideas or learn for everybody else...

That being said, I would like to (at least until you shut it down) continue this discussion in public

Jason didn't threaten to shut it down; this is a reflection on how you think, not how Jason thinks

This is where I do take offense and although I said this in private I wanted to say it in public as well, if you're mad at me, be mad at me, that's fine. But don't drag the good name of PDABuzz (the old PDABuzz) through the mud because of it. PDABuzz was a great site and you yourself have said as much many times in the past.


==> followed by:

I did email you privately and I'm not trying to chastise you in public...

You first said that you want to continue this in public, then in your next post, you claim you emailed privately, and don't wish to chastise in public - well, you did (chastise, that is)

The truth is, the road the hell is paved with good intentions and, as in the above thread, if you get too sensitive you end up causing more trouble than you prevent (ask Steve Bush).

So now who is dragging Steve Bush's good name thru the mud? And how is simply saying that this is NOT PDABuzz "dragging it thru the mud" - I've been a member of PDABuzz for over 2 years, and Jason's comment wasn't inflammatory. And you even manage to slide in the implication that Jason's going to hell, perhaps... how clever of you!

==> After posting links to a thread that was locked 9 months ago (!!!), Thomas posted this:

In the thread I quoted above, take Boxster and Jonathan1's place. The really didn't do anything wrong in the thread and Jason held them up, embarrassed them in front of everyone, and closed the thread not even giving them a chance to give their side.

(cough) Who is holding people up and trying to embaress them by posting links to threads almost a year old? And furthermore, why are you trying to "defend" Boxter or Jonathan1, when you also said:

I think most, if not all, of the posters here are fully capable of defending themselves and if they are offended removing themself from the conversation.

So are you saying that Boxter and Jonathan are *not* capable of defending themselves? You are contradicting yourself.

as these incidents become more and more frequent (not to say that they are but more of an "if" they do) my "fight for whats right no matter what" side comes out

And this is part of the problem. Being married, let me impart one small nugget of wisdom I've gained - sometimes, even when I'm convinced I'm right, I apologize and swallow my pride rather than drag out a shouting match with somebody I care about (ie., my wife in this example), and risk hurting them or my relationship with them.

I would say that you no longer have much chance of getting the rest of us to "see the light" that you obviously see shining so brightly - people are sufficiently "put off" by your method of delivery, that your message is dead on arrival. Sometimes, honestly, "The Ends Do Not Justify The Means".

----------------
So - there's my, playing the Archivist (http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame41.html), which I don't normally do - but I don't like seeing pieces of my posts chopped up and quoted out of context, so I thought I could return the favor...

[Steven Cedrone]

&lt;sigh>...

Thread locked...

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

[Ed Hansberry]

but I really want to make you see this point...
then
I never said anyone HAD to do ANYTHING! Further, I was ASKING people to TRY to see my point.
I think it is clear what you said.
Think about it, what would happen if, in congress they were debating a bill and the owner of the bill said "I won't put up with you attacking me" and walked out? Does that seem reasonable?

Again, no vote, no rally, no constituants or lobbyists to satisfy.

[Jason Dunn]

Being married, let me impart one small nugget of wisdom I've gained - sometimes, even when I'm convinced I'm right, I apologize and swallow my pride rather than drag out a shouting match with somebody I care about (ie., my wife in this example), and risk hurting them or my relationship with them.

This is the most useful piece of advice in this entire thread - being right at all costs often has more negatives attached to it than you might think.