Microsoft Puts a Bullet in Kin's Head

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://gizmodo.com/5576764/microsoft-kills-kin' target='_blank'>http://gizmodo.com/5576764/microsoft-kills-kin</a><br /><br /></div><p><em>"Just six weeks after launch, Microsoft's Kin, the social phone we wanted to love, is dead. Microsoft is pulling the plug, sources close to Microsoft tell us. There won't be a separate Kin product anymore. Effective immediately, Andy Lees is shoving the entire Kin team into the core Windows Phone 7 team, so there will just be one big group to focus on Windows Phone 7."</em></p><p><img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com/resizer/thumbs/size/600/wpt/auto/1277932773.usr1.jpg" style="border: 1px solid #d2d2bb;" /></p><p>And there you have it. After only a few months Kin, launched with much fanfare, has been terminated by Microsoft. You can look at this one of two ways: <MORE /></p><p><em>1) The leadership in the mobile devices group at Microsoft is so fragile and uncertain of their decisions that poor sales and criticism from the online media shook their confidence in Kin so much that they decided to nix it to spare themselves further criticism.</em></p><p>or</p><p><em>2) The leadership in the mobile devices group at Microsoft took a hard look at Kin and realized that as a company, they need to have one consumer-focused mobile OS, not two. They know Windows Phone 7 has a long road ahead, and they need every last talented person who understands mobile to focus on making it better.</em></p><p>Which do you think it is? I believe it's #2, and here's why: work on Kin started when the Windows Mobile team was at it's weakest, floundering around trying to figure out what to do next because of their inability to execute upon Photon. I think Kin was a way for some of the most talented people at Microsoft to lead the charge in a new direction, a new way of approaching mobility. For all the faults that Kin had, there were some really interesting, innovative concepts.</p><p>Although the short term pain, disappointment, and disillusionment will be hard to bear for the Kin team members, I dearly hope the passion they had for Kin gets transferred into Windows Phone 7.</p>

[Janak Parekh]

It's clearly a little bit of both. Microsoft lacked the leadership to make the Kin a killer product, and it launched halfheartedly, with price points that turned off even people who were interested in it. Given the amount of money they spent on Danger, this is really sad to see; Danger's original platform was superb and had a completely loyal userbase, and they've done an amazing job of destroying it. This is a pretty black mark against Roz Ho, her team really didn't execute. :(

But, as you mentioned, at least now that they've shaken up MED, they're cleaning house and consolidating a bit. Having a single unified product is better longer-term. I think this is a very good development from that regard, and it looks like they'll be keeping the engineering in-house.

One other question, though: how willing will carriers be to sell Microsoft solutions now? T-Mobile got burned with the Danger data loss, and now Verizon got burned (well, inasmuch as they invested in it) with the Kin shutdown. Doesn't really help MS's reputation in the phone market.

--janak

[caywen]

... 5 years ago as a $20 phone. This is a situation where the corporate response to Courier and Kin were unfortunately reversed. They should have shipped the former and canned the latter before launch.

That said, I'm glad they are dumping this steaming pile. Kin should have been a WP7 app, not a platform. The team should have been 2 programmers, a PM, and a QA guy.

[sbrown23]

Or there is option #3 - Kin was a test platform for the cloud tech such as Kin Studio, which received raves at release. And now that tech is being folded into the Windows Phone 7 team? Doesn't something like Kin Studio seem well suited for a smartphone platform like WP7? Seems like we'll see a Windows Phone Studio at some point, replicating pix, etc. to the cloud.

Re: Verizon - I wouldn't say at all that Verizon got burned on this. I would call Verizon responsible for killing the platform with their ridiculous pricing. Saddling Kin with the same data plan requirement as a full smartphone? Pricing the device (initially) like a smartphone? If anything, I'd say Verizon burned Microsoft with their pricing the device to fail. There was no way it was going to compete successfully against Driod, Pre, and other full featured smartphones.

[Janak Parekh]

Or there is option #3 - Kin was a test platform for the cloud tech such as Kin Studio, which received raves at release. And now that tech is being folded into the Windows Phone 7 team? Doesn't something like Kin Studio seem well suited for a smartphone platform like WP7? Seems like we'll see a Windows Phone Studio at some point, replicating pix, etc. to the cloud. If that's the case, this is a hugely expensive "test platform", considering that it was built by the remnants of Danger that Microsoft spent a pretty penny on. WP7, on the other hand, is something the mobile team has been working on for years, and it draws from the internal Zune efforts.

Re: Verizon - I wouldn't say at all that Verizon got burned on this. I would call Verizon responsible for killing the platform with their ridiculous pricing. Saddling Kin with the same data plan requirement as a full smartphone? Pricing the device (initially) like a smartphone? If anything, I'd say Verizon burned Microsoft with their pricing the device to fail. There was no way it was going to compete successfully against Driod, Pre, and other full featured smartphones. Why didn't Microsoft push back? Or shop it to another carrier? Sure, Verizon deserves some blame, but so does Microsoft for just playing along when there are carriers with cheaper data plans and a greater willingness to negotiate.

--janak

[Jason Dunn]

Some good info here:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-20009336-56.html

[Jason Dunn]

... 5 years ago as a $20 phone. This is a situation where the corporate response to Courier and Kin were unfortunately reversed. They should have shipped the former and canned the latter before launch.

Well, I'm not so sure about that - I read some info that said Courier couldn't have been built for less than $1500, making it a cost-prohibitive project. It would have flopped at retail because the costs were just too high. I really wanted to see it come to market, but not at a $1500 price point (or whatever it ended up being).

[Jason Dunn]

Or there is option #3 - Kin was a test platform for the cloud tech such as Kin Studio, which received raves at release.

Nah. You don't release hardware and launch TV campaigns just to test cloud technology. Microsoft could have done that with an app on a Windows Phone.

[Jason Dunn]

Why didn't Microsoft push back? Or shop it to another carrier? Sure, Verizon deserves some blame, but so does Microsoft for just playing along when there are carriers with cheaper data plans and a greater willingness to negotiate.

Those are some big assumptions there. What makes you think that Microsoft didn't approach EVERY carrier and Verizon was the only one willing to take Kin? That's equally possible, and given the general stink that Microsoft has on them in terms of mobile, the more likely one.

[Fritzly]

No matter if it is #1 or #2, the bottom line is the senior management behind the project did not have any clue about how to present and sell such a peculiar device.

Is this a phone for teens? Great so launch it first in Europe where rechargeable SIMs with no contract are extremely popular, especially among younger users.

Launch it with Carriers like Virgin, not one of these "mighty" US Carriers that so obtuse that are keeping this Country so behind the rest of the World. We are talking about Microsoft here no Joe Smith & Co; I cannot believe they could not have the resources to studt something so simple...

I cannot believe the overall amount of money wasted from the acquistion of Danger to this final, pretty obvious, final chapter. It is simply indecent.

[Janak Parekh]

Those are some big assumptions there. What makes you think that Microsoft didn't approach EVERY carrier and Verizon was the only one willing to take Kin? That's equally possible, and given the general stink that Microsoft has on them in terms of mobile, the more likely one. I don't buy it, given that Verizon is the most control-obsessed of carriers in the US by far. As Fritzly mentioned, someone like Virgin Mobile (which is CDMA!) would be a much more natural fit; they have a large teen population thanks to their prepaid focus, and they emphasize lower-cost options. Note that the Sidekick was on T-Mobile, which also prices more aggressively and which has a big youth population. Of course, it's possible Microsoft burned bridges with T-Mobile after the whole data loss episode.

And, if Verizon was the only interested carrier and at those prices, don't launch crippled, pull it back! A non-Smartphone being charged Smartphone data prices... that is an epic mistake for a untested product/brand.

--janak

[Jason Dunn]

And, if Verizon was the only interested carrier and at those prices, don't launch crippled, pull it back! A non-Smartphone being charged Smartphone data prices... that is an epic mistake for a untested product/brand.

Launching a new product is always a gamble - unless you're Apple - and I'd guess that when it came down to "Do we cancel the whole project, or launch with a carrier partner that wants to charge too much", they opted for the latter and hoped they could get the prices lowered post-launch. Maybe Verizon was playing it safe and they wanted to see how much data Kin customers were really using before they offered lower data plans.

Ultimately, this is all speculation, but knowing a couple of Kin team members, I don't buy your premise that Microsoft is simply stupid and inept and forgot to talk to the other carriers. Come on Janak... :)

[Jason Dunn]

Is this a phone for teens? Great so launch it first in Europe where rechargeable SIMs with no contract are extremely popular, especially among younger users. Launch it with Carriers like Virgin, not one of these "mighty" US Carriers...

That's an excellent point. I wonder if Microsoft's "BIG" mentality blinded them to the advantages of launching in smaller markets, with smaller carriers who are a more natural fit for their target market?

[Janak Parekh]

Ultimately, this is all speculation, but knowing a couple of Kin team members, I don't buy your premise that Microsoft is simply stupid and inept and forgot to talk to the other carriers. Come on Janak... :)

That's an excellent point. I wonder if Microsoft's "BIG" mentality blinded them to the advantages of launching in smaller markets, with smaller carriers who are a more natural fit for their target market?

You don't directly contradict yourself here, but you almost do, Jason.

A couple of other points:

1. Having known members of the Microsoft mobile teams, I wouldn't say any of them are stupid or inept in the slightest -- in fact, many of them are very bright. But, have they made stupid or inept product decisions? Yes, many many many times -- and we yelled at them repeatedly and they acknowledged it and the next version of Windows Mobile came without fixing them. There's a long list of these, over and over and over. So, actually, it wouldn't surprise me that poor product decisions were made here in the interest of "oh crap, we spent so much money on this, we have to push it out the door." I have a very good idea of how both good and bad product decisions are made in big companies -- I work in one and have seen the process first-hand -- and this reeks of a bad product decision. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if folks on the team protested the decisions but were overridden. There's my speculation for you. ;)

2. If the gamble was as you state, I would argue that was the bad product decision right there. Anyone who has been tracking the industry for years knows that Verizon moves like molasses. Slower than molasses, in fact. Getting them to bend based on a product launch is sheer madness. Why do you think Apple repeatedly walked away from the best network in the US?

--janak

[Jason Dunn]

Some interesting insight:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/30/what-killed-the-kin/

[Fritzly]

Aaaahhhhh....... politics at its lowest; it would make sense though: he subtly and behind the scenes, remotely drive the project to a certain failure and then jump on the carcass to snatch the remains.
Not surprised at all; it happened before.

Still the problem is that the fish always begins to stink from the head: if you are unable to keep the competition among the teams to a healthy, controlled, level the entire, darwinian concept falls apart.

Also I am not so sure that WP7 will not be affected: you do not build such a great plan just for "satellite" objectives, you go for the big prize.

Well, we will see how things will develop; if the shockwaves will be intense and travel far enough.... who knows whose heads could drop....... There is an old say: "Who enter the Conclave as Pope.... get out as Cardinal".

[Jason Dunn]

Aaaahhhhh....... politics at its lowest; it would make sense though: he subtly and behind the scenes, remotely drive the project to a certain failure and then jump on the carcass to snatch the remains. Not surprised at all; it happened before.

Are you referring to Sinofsky? I doubt that's the case, he's in a completely different group at Microsoft...I doubt he could/would try to try to drive it to failure as you're suggesting.

[Fritzly]

Are you referring to Sinofsky? I doubt that's the case, he's in a completely different group at Microsoft...I doubt he could/would try to try to drive it to failure as you're suggesting.

Actually he is getting everywhere............. and as I said it happened few times before: the oldest example that comes in my mind is "BOB" which, besides some undeniably weak points, had been seen as a threat from the Windows division with its revolutionary paradigm of a desktop, using completely scalable vector graphics, shifting from "program oriented" to one "task oriented".

Three to six months and we will see........

[randalllewis]

I am probably the only one here who actually owns the Kin, so I guess I'll weigh in.

Frankly I don't see much difference in this debacle than with the Zune hardware. Microsoft releases a product way too late and/or significantly less capable than already established competition. Whatever it is that slows down the decision making at Microsoft needs to get addressed quickly.

And as with Zune, there is certainly something to salvage from the Kin project that can be used in other products such as Windows Phone 7. Besides Kin Studio, it would be great if WP7 devices had a Kin Loop page as well. These are my favorite parts of the Kin.

It is actually a good thing for a corporation to try out new ideas in the marketplace to see what may succeed. It is OK if several of these new ideas fail, as long as you learn something from the effort and salvage the best components of the failed project for use elsewhere. Bringing the Kin team to work in WP7 gives me hope that this may happen.

We are all speculating on what really is going on at Microsoft regarding this phone. It could well be that the company had a contractual or legal obligation to bring this product to market. Given the nature of leaks in the tech world, it will probably all come out eventually. I won't be surprised if the reasons for releasing a product you kill weeks later turn out to be far less sinister than some here are suggesting.

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

That was bloody fast. Terrible leadership, the thing should never have launched in the first place then.

[Stinger]

I wonder what future there is for the Zune now. I'm still waiting for it to be released in the UK.

[Craig Horlacher]

Wow, that was really fast!!! I think MS Bob may have been around longer.

The thing I don't understand is, why would Windows Phone 7 do any better than Kin? You can cross off business users from the WinPho7 list because Microsoft annouced a seperat product for them. You can cross many former WinMo users off the WinPho7 list because they were on WinMo/PocketPC/PalmPC over palm (back in the day) because of it's power and customization options. This leaves people who are new to "smartphones" and have no real expectations or demands - and they already have and love their iPhones. Developers are basically developing for iOS or Android now so what is Microsoft thinking? Wouldn't it make more sense for Microsoft to concentrate on software for iOS and Android as well as new cloud based mobile services?

I don't know, I just think if Microsoft would have asked everyone on Windows Phone Thoughts if they should have released the Kin it would have been a big NO. Why doesn't MS check with some real people in the real world on the viability of WinPho7? I'd be willing to bet if they would ask this it would again be an overwhelming no. I'm just afraid it will be another black eye for Microsoft.

Apple has perfected the simple and crippled device. Why does Microsoft even want that crown!?!??!?! If they were releasing an Android contender there would be some logic to it maybe in that Android hasn't taken off as much and there is still room to grow there. It's just that with what WinPho7 is, it doesn't have a chance as an Android contender.

So, not that it matters but, my recommendation would be kill WinPho7, make a very good Office for iOS and for Android, and then go from there. Once they're established with mobile versions of great software people know and love then start working on new cloud based services. I think these are places where Microsoft could excel! Sure, they would waste all that time and effort they put into WinPho7 but better to cut your losses sooner rather than later.

What do others think? Can you think of situations, cases, and reasons why WinPho7 would be a better solution than the iPhone or Android for a significant number of people?

[efjay]

Microsoft could have used all the money from this wasted investment on improving WM drastically, rather than let it stagnate for so long. Simply giving PIE tabs would have made it much more usable. One hopes, that Microsoft really learns from this with WP7, it will be really sad if the only choices are apple and google. And I wonder where the WM team is now, thats one group we never hear anything about, guess they all got the sack! :)

[Jason Dunn]

The thing I don't understand is, why would Windows Phone 7 do any better than Kin? You can cross off business users from the WinPho7 list because Microsoft annouced a seperat product for them.

While there is going to be an Enterprise OS for big business customers, I don't know how wide-spread it's going to be...no one likes carrying two phones, and the move toward one device - so long as it's supported by the IT department - seems to be quite popular. I think this is a stopgap measure at best.

You can cross many former WinMo users off the WinPho7 list because they were on WinMo/PocketPC/PalmPC over palm (back in the day) because of it's power and customization options.

Some, yes, but not all - I for one am looking forward to a phone that doesn't lock up, doesn't slow down at random times, has deeply integrated social networking features, can be updated by Microsoft rather than leaving it up to the whims of the carriers or OEMs, a phone that has superb Zune integration so I can keep my newest music, photos, and videos with me at all times...etc.

I don't care about having to re-buy my apps - I don't have that many I use any more anyway - and I don't really care about multi-tasking so long as applications restore their state so well that I'll never notice. I do care about not having copy and paste, though hopefully that will be added soon enough. I have zero hands-on experience with Windows Phone 7, so I can't say if it's a winner or not, but so far I like what I see.

[Jason Dunn]

Microsoft could have used all the money from this wasted investment on improving WM drastically, rather than let it stagnate for so long.

It was never about money; it was about leadership. The Windows Mobile team didn't have any good leadership for years; there was a revolving door of people who just didn't quite get it. You can lambaste KIN all you want, but I think all of the most talented, innovative people who were focused on a single vision went to KIN - you have to admit it was like nothing else from Microsoft that we'd ever seen. Hopefully some of that passion and vision will come back to Windows Phone 7.

[Janak Parekh]

Some interesting insight:

What killed the Kin? -- Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/30/what-killed-the-kin/) Hrm, so I was partly wrong, and partly right. Looks like there was some significant product ineptness. It's sad to see that Microsoft jettisoned the Danger platform that aggressively -- Danger had done a lot of amazing things with it. :( As I mentioned before, the Hiptop/Sidekick was the first to have an app store, not Apple.

--janak

[efjay]

It was never about money; it was about leadership. The Windows Mobile team didn't have any good leadership for years; there was a revolving door of people who just didn't quite get it. You can lambaste KIN all you want, but I think all of the most talented, innovative people who were focused on a single vision went to KIN - you have to admit it was like nothing else from Microsoft that we'd ever seen. Hopefully some of that passion and vision will come back to Windows Phone 7.

Whatever the reason, its coming back to haunt them now, with Kin dead WM will be the face of MS mobility for the next 4 months, and due to MS's incompetence its a face most now want to hide under a bag, including it seems MS themselves. Oh well, at least they gave us batteries that can be inserted either way, Yay!!:)

[Jason Dunn]

More good reading on the subject:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/kin-more-proof-that-warring-fiefdoms-rule-at-microsoft/6729

[Craig Horlacher]

has deeply integrated social networking features, can be updated by Microsoft rather than leaving it up to the whims of the carriers or OEMs, a phone that has superb Zune integration so I can keep my newest music, photos, and videos with me at all times...etc.
True, the iPhone doesn't fill these gaps. Sure it has apps for social networking but def not deeply integrated features even for iOS4. I do especially like the idea of Microsoft being able to create the OS updates without going through the hardware oems or carriers. Good points Jason.


I don't care about having to re-buy my apps - I don't have that many I use any more anyway - and I don't really care about multi-tasking so long as applications restore their state so well that I'll never notice. I do care about not having copy and paste, though hopefully that will be added soon enough.
Yeah, you at least need good task switching to use copy and paste. My old HP OmniGo saved state files to track where applications were when you did task switching. It worked well but it didn't manage the state files well and you would have to do something to clear them all once in a while or the whole device just got slow and funky. It will be interesting to see how MS implements "multi-tasking" or task switching.


I have zero hands-on experience with Windows Phone 7, so I can't say if it's a winner or not, but so far I like what I see.
Well, that says a lot coming from you! The next 6 months are going to be pretty exciting in the mobile device world, that's for sure!

[the_rapture]

Or there is option #3 - Kin was a test platform for the cloud tech such as Kin Studio, which received raves at release. And now that tech is being folded into the Windows Phone 7 team? Doesn't something like Kin Studio seem well suited for a smartphone platform like WP7? Seems like we'll see a Windows Phone Studio at some point, replicating pix, etc. to the cloud.

Re: Verizon - I wouldn't say at all that Verizon got burned on this. I would call Verizon responsible for killing the platform with their ridiculous pricing. Saddling Kin with the same data plan requirement as a full smartphone? Pricing the device (initially) like a smartphone? If anything, I'd say Verizon burned Microsoft with their pricing the device to fail. There was no way it was going to compete successfully against Driod, Pre, and other full featured smartphones.

My thoughts exactly... It's a test platform that they are using to see how and who would use it. My 14 yr old is oooo and aaaahing it right now. We picked her up one for free from BestBuy which is the price point they should have used in the first place.