Microsoft Will Be Updating Windows 7 Phones Directly: No More Being Held Hostage to the Mobile Operators & Hardware OEMs [Archive]

View Full Version : Microsoft Will Be Updating Windows 7 Phones Directly: No More Being Held Hostage to the Mobile Operators & Hardware OEMs

Jason Dunn

04-26-2010, 03:00 PM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?u=http://tweakers.net/reviews/1625/1/interview-microsoft-over-windows-phone-7-inleiding.html&sl=nl&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8' target='_blank'>http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...en&hl=&ie=UTF-8</a> </div>"...Microsoft itself will release updates to the OS. Thus, users no longer have to wait until the manufacturer or provider [issues] a firmware update. This should ensure less fragmentation in some versions of Windows phones users...These updates can be pushed to the users in two ways. "We do that through the Zune desktop software or over the air," said Kindel. "Whichever way we use depends on the size of the update." In practice this will mean that major updates from the desktop software can be installed, while the smaller updates are sent directly to your phone."<img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com/resizer/thumbs/size/600/wpt/auto/1272126868.usr1.jpg" style="border: 1px solid #d2d2bb;" />Over the years, there have been irritations with Windows Mobile - things that don't quite work the way they should, things that are broken, and things that are missing. Real pain points though were on a short list: sluggish performance, stability issues, and perhaps the most frustrating of all: a truly awful ROM upgrade story. From the very first Pocket PC that shipped, these devices have been seen as having a version of Windows; and you can upgrade Windows, right? That's the perception that customers had, so when a new version of Windows Mobile came out, people expected to be able to upgrade their phone. Some OEMs offered upgrades, some didn't. Things got much worse when Pocket PCs became phones and the wireless providers got involved; then it wasn't just about whether HP or another OEM wanted to release the update, it was about the wireless provider deciding if they wanted to be bothered. And more often than not, they didn't - even if tens of thousands of customers would have been willing to pay for it.<MORE />The good news? This pain is gone. Vanished. Kaput. Microsoft will be providing updates for Windows phone 7 devices directly, just as they do today with the Zune HD. You'll plug in your device, get notified about an update, and that update will be applied - just like the process used by Apple. In fact, the Zune desktop software is the conduit, similar to iTunes - I saw this demoed a couple of months ago, and it's amazingly slick. I've been awaiting Microsoft PR approval for a Q&A with the Microsoft Program manager who heads up this feature, because there are some really interesting things about it that haven't yet been shared. Hopefully that Q&A will finally get approved and I can share the information with you.Another <a href="http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?u=http://tweakers.net/reviews/1625/1/interview-microsoft-over-windows-phone-7-inleiding.html&sl=nl&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8" target="_blank">key quote from this article</a>:"Windows 7 Phone Release will not [be] 'feature complete': many cases will be added later. This is a conscious choice, Kindel said. "What we do, we do extremely well. This is a change from previous Windows Mobile versions, where as much as possible functionality in trying to stop. Now some things are missing at the launch, but the important thing for us [is the] user experience...then [we will] look at how we can extend that functionality."Despite the rough Google translation, you can understand what Kindel is saying: that, unlike previous versions of Windows Mobile where the product was feature-locked months before it showed up on devices, Windows phone 7 will be a constantly-evolving operating system. By the time Windows phone 7 devices are available for purchase, I'm 100% sure Microsoft will have a firmware update ready that will have a couple of months of coding work behind it. That will mean fixes/tweaks for sure, and possibly new features. Copy/paste? Maybe.The cynics out there might point out that at some point Microsoft themselves will choose to not offer a device update, which is true; the older Zune devices no longer get firmware updates. I think we need to be realistic here though; the Zune devices got updates for quite a while, and people who purchased a Zune 30 were still getting firmware updates two years after their purchase. I've always felt that if I could get minor patches along the way, and one OS update, that would be enough to make me feel like my investment was honoured.Even with a few limitations, I'll take Microsoft's approach to updates over the carrier/OEM updates any day!

paschott

04-26-2010, 03:23 PM

This is definitely one of the most welcome changes to this platform. I've been burned on carrier/OEM upgrades on all of my devices and have had to turn to unofficial sources to find an upgrade. The good part about the unofficial sources is that those putting together the upgrade packages often do a lot of tailoring and customizing so you get some pretty incredible features. The bad part is that I have to unlock my phone and risk turning it into a brick to get an upgrade. No support if I make a mistake. (Hasn't been a major issue, but still a concern.)

I still remember the early Compaq devices (before HP took over) - they were pretty much always good for one OS update, even if paid. Got an iPaq expecting the same thing and HP decided there would be no update, even for a cost. Switched to an HTC phone and even though the device is good and still runs, AT&T and the other carriers decided that there would be no upgrade to the phone OS. Ditto for my current device, though I knew I could turn to XDA for that as needed.

Add in that MS is limiting the amount of customization carriers can do and this could be a pretty decent experience, despite no copy/cut/paste in the initial release. Of course, I'm still waiting to see a device before making the final decision, but will admit that I'm pretty excited about most of the changes coming.

Great news and thanks for sharing the confirmation that MS will give OS patches and updates directly.

vangrieg

04-26-2010, 03:44 PM

Great news indeed. Let's just hope that the fact that OEMs are supposed to provide the drivers won't make it wishful thinking.

Craig Horlacher

04-26-2010, 03:53 PM

This sounds like a great move to me! Congratulations Microsoft!

I do hope updates will be optional or there is a roll-back feature.

Janak Parekh

04-26-2010, 04:31 PM

Yup, this is huge news. Kudos to Microsoft for finally doing this. We were only telling them this for years, Jason. :)

--janak

Fritzly

04-26-2010, 04:36 PM

benjimen

04-26-2010, 07:09 PM

While MS may be handling the updates, it'll be more of MS handling the fragmentation instead of the carriers & device manufacturers. They'll be working directly with the parties involved prior to updates coming out.

When an update comes out, it won't be an across-the-board, all-devices update. They'll update a T-Mobile device differently than an AT&T one, possibly at the same time, possibly not. It'll depend on getting all the carrier bloatware in place, etc. Typically, some carriers do this more quickly than others -- that won't change.

It's not going to be WM shangrala that the headline here would have you think, but more like the current Android-issued updates with some getting things sooner than others and some receiving no updates at all.

Eriq Cook

04-26-2010, 07:09 PM

Well this is great news. Finally I won't have to wait 6-12 months for minor updates after they're relased by MS.

Fritzly

04-26-2010, 07:54 PM

benjimen

04-26-2010, 07:58 PM

Hopefully there will be no issues with SIM free, non subsidized/crippled phones. More or less as it works in the PC world.

Well... using HTC as an example, it'll all depend on the device life-cycle. They're pretty quick with current, popular smartphones -- but once it hits 6 months, it's antiquated. None of this will change, devices that are no longer supported will not receive updates no matter where they're being issued from.

MS will deliver the updates, to the devices manufacturers and carriers choose to update. Otherwise, you'll need to wade through the cooked ROMS at XDA :(

Fritzly

04-26-2010, 08:09 PM

Well... using HTC as an example, it'll all depend on the device life-cycle. They're pretty quick with current, popular smartphones -- but once it hits 6 months, it's antiquated. None of this will change, devices that are no longer supported will not receive updates no matter where they're being issued from.

MS will deliver the updates, to the devices manufacturers and carriers choose to update. Otherwise, you'll need to wade through the cooked ROMS at XDA :(

Are you sure? My understanding is that the new system will work exactly as a PC: from MS directly to users. IMO if users will still have to rely on manufacturers nothing would change. Keep in mind that in the majorities of other Countries phones are sold in stores and not through carriers. Unless MS will decide to sell WP7 only in the US but this seems extremely unlikely.

wetsleet

04-26-2010, 08:54 PM

keeping your customers happy would seem like a shrewd and original business strategy. Yeah, why did nobody already think of that one!?
So seriously, why not keep rolling out the firmware updates over an 18 month cycle by which time two things will have happened:
1) you are well ready for an upgrade
2) you reflect on 18 months' surfing the cutting edge of gadget happiness maintained by firmware updates which your [other OS toting] colleagues have not enjoyed.
Enlightened by this happy experience, why would you now not have more of that goodness? Repeat business, lower marketing cost, happy customers. Seems like a win-win-win to me.

Ed Hansberry

04-26-2010, 11:43 PM

keeping your customers happy would seem like a shrewd and original business strategy. Yeah, why did nobody already think of that one!?
The probelm wasn't not knowing that. Microsoft thought the carrier was their customer though, not the consumer. At a minimum, both are the customer, and I'd argue the end customer is the one that must be kept the most happy. Keeping the carriers happy didn't do much for MS these last 4-6 years.

Apple properly identified the customer with their iPhone and I sincerely hope MS has learned this lesson and will NOT forget it anytime soon.

Jason Dunn

04-27-2010, 12:24 AM

Let's just hope that the fact that OEMs are supposed to provide the drivers won't make it wishful thinking.

I've always thought the same thing, because that's what we've been told by Microsoft. Yet how then have the XDA ROMs worked for so many if this driver business was so important? There are people running Windows Mobile 6.5 on hardware that's four years old - how are they able to do that without any drivers? That issue has always puzzled me.

This is one of my questions in the Q&A with the Microsoft PM, so if he's given permission to respond, hopefully we'll all have our answers.

Jason Dunn

04-27-2010, 12:28 AM

I do hope updates will be optional or there is a roll-back feature.

If it's anything like the Zune update experience, they'll be optional in terms of "Do you want to install 1.2", but if you don't install 1.2, you won't get to install 1.3 until you install 1.2. That's the only rational way to approach the process - it would be insanely hard to test every permutation and combination otherwise.

Why wouldn't you want to install an update? I agree that a roll-back function would be nice if there was a major issue...but on the other hand, if there's a major issue, Microsoft would release an update to fix it. That's kind of the whole point of this approach. :)

Jason Dunn

04-27-2010, 12:34 AM

Kudos to Microsoft for finally doing this. We were only telling them this for years, Jason. :)

Hah...tell me about it! For anyone wondering, this has been my #1 with a bullet blood-pressure raising issue at every single MVP Summit I've been at. I'm so glad I'll be able to move on to other issues now. :D

Lee Yuan Sheng

04-27-2010, 02:54 AM

Is it my imagination, or did someone say that they'll be distancing the OS features from the OS nuts-and-bolts? That way it'll be easier to add features and functionality without needing to go through the carriers.

This reminds me of Nokia as well. Since they own the OS, they can push out updates when needed, through their desktop software. I have to say in many ways S60 had a better out-of-the-box experience.

benjimen

04-27-2010, 07:24 AM

Are you sure? My understanding is...

I can see why your understanding is otherwise. The way the info is being presented, you'd think it was going to be just like a PC. It won't be though, how could it? Carriers maintain tight control over their devices and capabilities. They're not going to blindly let MS update aspects of the OS they may have restricted. There isn't going to be a WindowsPhone-Update without some sort of carrier and/or device manufacturer involvement...

Russ Smith

04-27-2010, 01:22 PM

...and yet, that's just what Apple does with the iPhone. I can see MS playing the same "If you want the product, you'll have to accept the procedures." card.

On the one hand, it does put OEMs at a disadvantage because they can't do as much "value added" programming, like HTCs Sense GUI. It also means they can't sell a new phone based solely on the fact that it has the new OS. On the other hand, it means the products will all perform to spec and with a lot fewer "consult your service provider" provisos.

I hope it's as the majority reads this. I always thought you upgrade the hardware when you want new hardware features, not just to get a new OS.

Fritzly

04-27-2010, 01:52 PM

I can see why your understanding is otherwise. The way the info is being presented, you'd think it was going to be just like a PC. It won't be though, how could it? Carriers maintain tight control over their devices and capabilities. They're not going to blindly let MS update aspects of the OS they may have restricted. There isn't going to be a WindowsPhone-Update without some sort of carrier and/or device manufacturer involvement...

Well, if the update process will remain under control of carriers/manufacturers nothing will really change and it will be a failure as it has been all these years.
Hopefully it will not..... we can just wait and see.....

Jason Dunn

04-27-2010, 05:19 PM

Something is unclear: does it means that the only way to sync a WP7 device and a desktop will be using the Zune software?
While I use it and I like it I cannot imagine corporate computers installing and using the "Zune software".

I'm not 100% clear on what Microsoft has said about the synchronization, so I'm not sure what I can say without breaking my NDA...but you've heard Microsoft talk about the Zune software for media synching and app synching - and you haven't heard them mention PIM sync or Windows Mobile Device Center.

Besides these details this is a smart move for MS ......if they will not try to attach some kind of "Genuine verification" in the process....

You're sure paranoid about this kind of stuff. :D Are you referring to Microsoft doing something to stop the hacked ROMs scene? I don't know if they will, but it's their OS, so they have every right to and I wouldn't complain if they did. In fact, I might cheer...

Jason Dunn

04-27-2010, 05:26 PM

When an update comes out, it won't be an across-the-board, all-devices update. They'll update a T-Mobile device differently than an AT&T one, possibly at the same time, possibly not. It'll depend on getting all the carrier bloatware in place, etc. Typically, some carriers do this more quickly than others -- that won't change.

What you're saying is completely different than the information I have on how this will work. What are you basing your statements on?

Jason Dunn

04-27-2010, 05:30 PM

MS will deliver the updates, to the devices manufacturers and carriers choose to update. Otherwise, you'll need to wade through the cooked ROMS at XDA :(

Again, that's not what the source article linked says, nor what I've been told - the updates will be coming from Microsoft, delivered directly to customers, using the Zune software. Where are you getting this information from?

Jason Dunn

04-27-2010, 05:35 PM

The way the info is being presented, you'd think it was going to be just like a PC. It won't be though, how could it? Carriers maintain tight control over their devices and capabilities. They're not going to blindly let MS update aspects of the OS they may have restricted. There isn't going to be a WindowsPhone-Update without some sort of carrier and/or device manufacturer involvement...

What you're describing is the way things work now - the horribly broken, near-useless system we have today. My article is describing how things are going to work in the forthcoming Windows phone 7 era. How else would you interpret the quotes from Charlie Kindel?

I'm looking forward to your reaction when you realize how things are going to work by the end of this year. :)

Jason Dunn

04-27-2010, 05:37 PM

...and yet, that's just what Apple does with the iPhone. I can see MS playing the same "If you want the product, you'll have to accept the procedures." card.

Indeed. The industry as a whole owes Apple a debt of gratitude for putting AT&T in their place and saying "Look, if you want this hot device, you're not going to screw it up like you've always done in the past - we own the device, we own the customer experience. You own the network and the billing."

Without Apple and the iPhone, what Microsoft is doing with Windows phone 7 and updates wouldn't have been possible.

Fritzly

04-27-2010, 06:21 PM

I'm not 100% clear on what Microsoft has said about the synchronization, so I'm not sure what I can say without breaking my NDA...but you've heard Microsoft talk about the Zune software for media synching and app synching - and you haven't heard them mention PIM sync or Windows Mobile Device Center.

You're sure paranoid about this kind of stuff. :D Are you referring to Microsoft doing something to stop the hacked ROMs scene? I don't know if they will, but it's their OS, so they have every right to and I wouldn't complain if they did. In fact, I might cheer...

Cut n Paste form your post
"These updates can be pushed to the users in two ways. "We do that through the Zune desktop software or over the air," said Kindel."

Therefore I am wondering if users will be able to use WMDC or a new sync app besides Zune; my personal opinion is that MS will have to offer it, I do not see corporations installing Zune software on business desktops.

As for your other comment: no I am not paranoid; once I was abroad and on my way to an important meeting at 10:30 AM; at 09:00AM my genuine and validated copy of Office suddendly became unusable because "Not genuine" or whatever the message said. I called to fix the issue, dealt for twenty minute with a minus habens who declared that my copy was not original. To make a long story short I had to rush and spend more than €500 to buy a copy of Office.
So I was not referring to hacked ROMs at all but to faulty verification software and how it affect honest customers...... and only them as usual.

Jason Dunn

04-27-2010, 09:01 PM

As for your other comment: no I am not paranoid; once I was abroad and on my way to an important meeting at 10:30 AM; at 09:00AM my genuine and validated copy of Office suddendly became unusable because "Not genuine" or whatever the message said. I called to fix the issue, dealt for twenty minute with a minus habens who declared that my copy was not original. To make a long story short I had to rush and spend more than €500 to buy a copy of Office.
So I was not referring to hacked ROMs at all but to faulty verification software and how it affect honest customers...... and only them as usual.

Yeah, that would definitely suck - I can understand why you feel that way about verification systems now. :o Thankfully though, experiences like yours are in the minority...

Jason Dunn

04-28-2010, 03:31 AM

Some further info on this subject:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/20/leaked-slides-show-windows-phone-7s-update-strategy-windows-li/

benjimen

04-28-2010, 07:13 AM

...nothing will really change and it will be a failure as it has been all these years...

Not really. While device updates might not all happen at the same time (if a device is to receive one); they will all occur in the same way: OTA. Currently, updates vary based on your carrier and the device for WM upgrades. Sounds like it's going to be a lot like Android -- once an update is finalized for you WP7 device, it'll just happen.

doogald

04-28-2010, 02:55 PM

If Zune desktop software is required and Microsoft does not develop a client for Mac OS, then there is no chance at all that I will get a WP7.

wspears868

04-28-2010, 06:43 PM

I have to agree that this was good news. I felt so strongly about the current upgrade policy that my next phone was going to be an Android. Now, I will consider Windows Mobile 7.x and might purchase one once copy and paste again becomes feasible.

doogald

04-28-2010, 08:19 PM

I have to agree that this was good news. I felt so strongly about the current upgrade policy that my next phone was going to be an Android.

I have an Android phone with 1.5 on it; I'm still waiting for an update originally promised for 2010 Q1. If this is important to you, then you may want to stay away from Android, until they somehow break the "the carrier must approve all updates" policy (or you buy a Nexus branded phone.)

Jason Dunn

04-28-2010, 08:46 PM

Not really. While device updates might not all happen at the same time (if a device is to receive one); they will all occur in the same way: OTA.

Nope. Just like Charlie Kindel said, big updates will occur via the Zune desktop software client, and OTA updates will be minor updates.

You're speaking like you know things, but you're spreading misinformation, so whatever your source of information is you might want to stop trusting it.

wmm

04-30-2010, 03:52 PM

The biggest issue I've had over the years wasn't so much the lack of updates from the carrier/manufacturer; it's that the updates were so painful. Update to a new version of the OS and you had to re-do all the tweaks you had accumulated over the months you'd been using the phone, reinstall all the applications, and reconfigure them all the way you wanted them.

Hopefully going to a completely managed-code ecosystem will mitigate this problem; with a good virtualization layer, perhaps it won't be necessary to start completely from scratch when the OS upgrades. I guess that might offset a bit of the pain of losing all the many years' worth of applications I've accumulated over the years that won't be ported to WP7 -- maybe.

Janak Parekh

04-30-2010, 04:05 PM

Jason Dunn

04-30-2010, 05:45 PM

Update to a new version of the OS and you had to re-do all the tweaks you had accumulated over the months you'd been using the phone, reinstall all the applications, and reconfigure them all the way you wanted them.

Indeed - a huge pain point, especially for unexperienced users. I can configure a phone with my Exchange account info and get things up and running pretty quickly, but a non-power user who can barely make their phone work? The thought of re-installing/re-configuring everything is so terrifying to them they won't even both doing the upgrade in the first place.

Hopefully going to a completely managed-code ecosystem will mitigate this problem; with a good virtualization layer, perhaps it won't be necessary to start completely from scratch when the OS upgrades.

Indeed, wouldn't it be incredibly stupid for Microsoft to not have fixed this problem with Windows phone 7? :D

epdm2be

05-02-2010, 03:16 PM

So instead of being held hostage by mobile operators and hardware OEM's, we're being held hostage by one big multi-billion company: Microsoft.

Gee, what an improvement :-/

Jason Dunn

05-04-2010, 09:33 PM

So instead of being held hostage by mobile operators and hardware OEM's, we're being held hostage by one big multi-billion company: Microsoft.

What's the alternative? Some sort of roll-your-own OS update and end-user kernel compiling? Yeah, that's worked out real well for Linux taking over the world. :rolleyes:

I'll take Microsoft's track record any day of the week: with the Xbox, and the Zune, they've shown time and time again that they care about the customer experience and have provided a lot of added value from software updates. Sure, nothing lasts forever (no more Zune 30 updates), but all things come to an end.

paschott

05-05-2010, 01:22 AM

And to be fair, there have been updates available. Sadly, MS chose to let the vendors (their customers) decide when and if to release those updates. That didn't work out too well for those of us who really can't justify a new $400-$500 device every year just to get the latest OS and service packs. Compaq did it right for the first couple of years, but once HP bought them, that stopped. Right now, those of us on WM devices have to resort to 3rd party cooked ROMs if we want to upgrade. It's great that we have the option, but we shouldn't have to do that in the first place.

Of course, the current way to apply updates is incredibly painful. Blow away entire OS. Hope you have a (3rd party) backup that can restore your apps, settings, and files across versions. Once up and running, reinstall all apps, enter reg codes, re-enable ActiveSync relationships, etc, etc.

From what I've been reading, the WP7 model should be a lot less painful for all of the above. Yes, you'll still need to tether to apply major updates through the Zune software. However, you'll get those updates and I think MS learned that people don't want to reset their device each time.

Because the updates are coming from MS, we'll get them. They aren't depending on someone buying a new device directly from them so there's no immediate interest in withholding an OS upgrade. As Jason noted, the Zune 30 has seen updates up through this year or late last year which keeps it running and even adds some new features. MS didn't have to do that and could have just insisted that we get the latest.

MS has a lot riding on this. If they tick off the consumer base this time, their mobile division is dead. Right now they stand a chance with WP7 to gain some momentum and regain some market share. If they decide to kill upgrades really early to force people onto new devices, they're going to lose to the new guys. They may still choose to do that, but people will likely leave in droves after Apple and Google have been offering updates to current devices. Nothing lasts forever and they'll need to kill updates for older models to take advantage of new features and move forward, but not as quickly as under the current model.

Still waiting to see what comes of WP7 when it's finally released. I'm cautiously excited at this point. :)