A Quick Copy/Paste Q&A with Ex-Windows phone Team Member Mel Sampat [Archive]

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Jason Dunn

03-24-2010, 02:00 PM

There's been a lot said in the past week about the fact that Windows phone 7 won't have copy and paste functionality at launch - and even more was said (in a rather loud tone of voice) once <a href="http://www.windowsphonethoughts.com/news/show/97471/windows-phone-7-will-not-initially-offer-copy-and-paste.html" target="_blank">Microsoft statements</a> came out that this was by design because most people don't "need" copy/paste. While it's not a feature that every user would use regularly, it's one of those features that is important to have in certain scenarios - and even if you might only be in one of those scenarios once a month, without copy and paste, odds are you can't accomplish what you want. We've had some <a href="http://forums.thoughtsmedia.com/f398/windows-phone-7-will-lack-copy-paste-please-proceed-your-screaming-yelling-97413.html" target="_blank">high-spirited discussions about copy/paste in our forums</a>, with some members saying that they think implementing copy/paste should be "relatively easy". Having watched Microsoft closely over the years, and watched as seemingly simple features took years to come to fruition, I disagreed with the idea that implementing copy and paste would be as simple as some people think it is. I'm not a developer, however, and can't properly explain the challenges.<img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com/resizer/thumbs/size/600/wpt/auto/1269389670.usr1.jpg" style="border: 1px solid #d2d2bb;" />Image Credit: <a href="http://adspace-pioneers.blogspot.com/2008/09/2008-cntrl-ccntrl-v-agency-award.html" target="_blank">Julian Cole - Adspace Pioneers</a>.In light of this, I figured there was one person I could turn to: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Sampat" target="_blank">Mel Sampat</a>, formerly a member of the Windows phone team, and now on his own at <a href="http://www.mistlabs.com" target="_blank">Mist Labs</a>. He wasn't a member of the shell team - the team that would handle copy/paste - so he's neither representing Microsoft here nor is it trying to explain or justify the decisions of the shell team. He was, however, on the Windows phone team until a few weeks ago, so he has insight into what it takes to implement features on Windows phone 7. Check out the interview after the break. <MORE />WPT: It's been pointed out that Windows CE 6, which is what Windows phone 7 is built on, has clipboard support - and using the Windows phone 7 emulator, using a desktop keyboard it looks like the keyboard shotcuts for copy and paste still work. At a high level, why isn't is "easy" to make this work in the OS?Mel: On an API level, clipboard support has always been part of Windows (including Win32 and WinCE). However, implementing an API and creating new UI around it are completely different beasts (usually handled by different teams). As an analogy, the OS includes APIs for changing the date and time. However, a whole new app needs to be written from scratch to allow end-users to change the date and time. Similarly, a whole UI paradigm needs to be created around the Copy/Paste APIs, which takes lots of time and research to get right. This includes a lot of spec reviews, design iterations, dogfooding, usability studies etc. It also has to work automatically throughout the system without each app having to do something special to support copy/paste on its own. All of this end-user + developer friendliness takes time to bake, and it can't simply be hacked together on top of the APIs.WPT: The move from resistive screens with a stylus-based input to capacitive screens with finger-based input would have some repercussions related to text selection, input, etc. What kind of impact would this have on the development of a copy and paste feature in Windows phone 7? What sorts of things would have to change?Mel: A resistive screen (like those on Pocket PC devices) requires use of a stylus tip, which ensures touch precision to a few millimeters. A capacity screen (like those on iPhones) uses a finger instead of a stylus, which reduces precision but greatly improves gestures like pan, flick and pinch. Text selection requires high precision. For example, imagine you have an email message with this text: "Meet me at 148th Ave NE, Redmond, WA!". To map this address, you have to select just the address, and not the leading space or trailing punctuation. Old touch versions of Windows Mobile relied on the stylus to select text, which worked well because the tiny tip lets you easily pinpoint exactly where you want the selection to begin and end. However, Windows Phone 7 uses a capacitive screen, which would make selection extremely difficult, uncomfortable and error prone using just a finger. It's clear that using a finger directly like a stylus just won't work. So Microsoft needs to come up with a way to make text selection easier with a finger. iPhone does this by magnifying text when you press and hold a finger on it.<img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com/resizer/thumbs/size/600/wpt/auto/1269389516.usr1.jpg" style="border: 0;" />WPT: Apple was hammered on for not having copy and paste when they launched the first-generation iPhone, but their implementation of copy/paste today, and text selection, is pretty solid. What kind of issues could Microsoft run into with developing their own approach - if they couldn't think of a unique approach, would they have to license Apple's solution?Mel: Apple's text magnification works great, but I'm not sure if there are any patent issues related to it. Given Apple's recent patent litigation for experiences such as pinch and stretch, swipe to unlock, "rubber band bounce" etc., Microsoft needs to be careful about properly developing or licensing its copy/paste implementation.WPT: Let's talk about controls - how would it be different enabling copy and paste between editable fields (such as contact fields) and a Web page. What sorts of things would the Windows phone 7 team have to implement to have copy and paste work across the entire OS?Mel: Whatever Microsoft builds for copy/paste should work not only for edit fields, but also "read-only" content such as web pages and email messages. Ideally the same experience should be used everywhere so that the user doesn't need to discover new menus or gestures to copy/paste in different apps. In other words, copying an address from an email message, a URL from the browser's address bar or a paragraph of text from a web page should be initiated the same way. Even though Microsoft implemented Copy/Paste in the Smartphone (non-touch) version of Windows Mobile 6.x, this was broken because it didn't work consistently. For example, you could Copy text from the web browser, but couldn't paste it into the home address field of a Contact. Hopefully Microsoft will not repeat such mistakes in 7.WPT: Based on everything you've said above, is copy and paste a "doable" feature in Windows phone 7, or are there things about the way the new OS is fundamentally designed that would make it impossible to implement?Mel: As I said in my first answer, it's technically easy to slap something together quickly. However, designing it so that it's discoverable, intuitive and convenient takes more effort. It shouldn't require someone to do a Google or YouTube search to find out how to use features like Copy/Paste or multi-select. Let's wait for Microsoft to finish their due diligence and come out with something that is fully baked.WPT: Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions Mel!Jason Dunn owns and operates <a href="http://www.thoughtsmedia.com/" target="_blank">Thoughts Media Inc.</a>, a company dedicated to creating the best in online communities. He enjoys <a href="http://photos.jasondunn.com/" target="_blank">photography</a>, mobile devices, <a href="http://www.jasondunn.com/" target="_blank">blogging</a>, digital media content creation/editing, and pretty much all technology. He lives in Calgary, Alberta, Canada with his lovely wife, his son Logan, and his sometimes obedient dog. He likes where Microsoft is going with Windows phone 7, even though it's going to be a rocky couple of years.<img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com//ppct/auto/1240336793.usr1.gif" />Do you enjoy using new hardware, <a class="iAs" href="http://www.digitalhomethoughts.com/news/show/93798/dell-s-inspiron-mini-10-reviewed.html" target="_blank">software</a> and accessories, then sharing your experience with others? Then join us on the <a href="http://www.thoughtsmedia.com/reviewteam.php" target="_blank">Thoughts Media Review Team</a>! We're looking for individuals who find it fun to test new gear and give their honest opinions about the experience. It's a volunteer role with some great perks. Interested? <a href="http://www.thoughtsmedia.com/reviewteam.php" target="_blank">Then click here for more information.</a><img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com//ppct/auto/1240336793.usr1.gif" />

macattack

03-24-2010, 02:55 PM

Keep in mind, I'm a long-time Windows machine user from the Palm-sized PDA days to my current Fuze, but I find the duplicity in nearly every forum of every Window Mobile-dedicated site humorous. When the "arch enemy" (Apple iPhone) came out, the cat-calls about it lacking copy/paste were blistering. Now that Microsoft is releasing an all-new mobile OS without a lot of the features we know and love from Windows Mobile, every WM site out there is finding someone to explain why it makes sense to wait for "Microsoft to finish their due diligence." We all know from past experience how long it takes Microsoft to exercise "due diligence" in any area; their releases are feature-sparse and far apart.

I am personally going to hold onto my Fuze until I can find another platform that will do all I want it to do (copy/paste is only a small part of what I view as an unacceptable feature set loss). So far I have strayed to other platforms now and then through the years, but I have always come back, mostly because of the superior features and my large software investment. Since I'm losing both with WP7S, I'm going to find the platform with the best feature set and equivalent software offerings and reinvest in software. So many developers have announced plans to hold-off on any new development on the platform, that I'm not even sure if I will be able to find replacements for my current software titles on WP7S.

After all these years, Windows in the mobile space is dead to me, and once I jump to Android or iPhone (or whatever it will be) I won't be coming back.

Fritzly

03-24-2010, 04:54 PM

Bottom line one thousand developers cannot find a way to implement cut/paste without risking to get in something patented by Apple?
Congratulations.........

The Yaz

03-24-2010, 05:20 PM

While I can understand the logic of the article, I guess what bothers me is that with all of the time MS has invested in creating a whole new OS they didn't have enough programmers available to design what should be a staple feature.

So the real question is, why did MS invest so much time and energy into 6.1 and 6.5 ? In my opinion the experience has not significantly changed and they've pushed back the release of 7 to a point that they are playing catchup to Apple and Google.

I'm willing to wait for the new phones to come out before judgement though. No one company has the perfect OS (no matter how much their advertising tells you so), and I would like to see if a MS OS still fits my needs.

Steve

Russ Smith

03-24-2010, 09:02 PM

When I was writing databases full-time, our decision on whether or not to implement a feature wasn't based on whether or not it was easy. It was based on whether or not it would offer significant value to the user. Yes, C&P is not "easy" in the sense that you can slap it together in a few minutes. It is, however, less hard than implementing it on a system that never had it in the first place (iPhone, for instance).

What bugs me is that the spin always comes off sounding like you could only do this badly or you could not do it at all. Why not take the time and do it right? MS completely re-wrote the user interface with a whole new metaphor for interactions. How difficult is it to figure out how to do something with a staple operation like cut-and-paste that will move it into the next generation?

Sampat's comments detail some of the important considerations, especially the inherent difficulties in selecting an exact location with your finger. Those considerations need creative solutions. I'd much rather hear that MS is working on a good solution and hasn't come up with a usable option yet than some double-talk about people not needing the functionality.

Jason Dunn

03-24-2010, 09:03 PM

...but I find the duplicity in nearly every forum of every Window Mobile-dedicated site humorous. When the "arch enemy" (Apple iPhone) came out, the cat-calls about it lacking copy/paste were blistering.

You're presuming we live in a static world where opinions never change - we don't live in a world like that (well, I don't). In 2007 when the iPhone came out, all of us Windows Mobile users were still using a stylus. We were happily tapping and holding with the stylus and getting all kinds of rich functionality from that interface method that evolved over seven years. There were hardly any programs out there you'd call "finger friendly". Capacitive touch screens were extremely rare outside the Apple product line, and non-existent in the Windows Mobile world. So, yes, at the time compared to what we had it was pretty laughable that a phone didn't have copy and paste - it was something we were used to, and not having it seemed like it wasn't a real smartphone.

Fast forward three years, and a finger-friendly OS is what most people want - I know I really dislike having to use a stylus. When I got the HD2 and it didn't even come with one, I was initially dubious, but loved the device. Yet time and time again, there are things about Windows Mobile 6.x that just aren't finger friendly, and no amount of effort is going to fix that. There's only so much perfume you can spray on the corpse of Windows Mobile 6.x - it's frankly kind of amazing and impressive they got a full decade out of it.

So Microsoft needed to start over with an OS built from the ground up to be finger-friendly. There's obviously some stuff that they didn't have time to put into it (let's remember v7 was being designed by another team simultaneously with the development of v6.5), and despite what a Microsoft spokesperson says, they want copy/paste to be a part of the Windows phone experience.

The point of this Q&A wasn't to try to justify anything, or to make excuses - it was to simply offer up some background around what needs to go into developing such a feature - it's not just a few lines of code as some ignorant people like to spout off about.

Jason Dunn

03-24-2010, 09:11 PM

So the real question is, why did MS invest so much time and energy into 6.1 and 6.5 ?

Pretty simple - OEM partners. Let's say you're HTC, and every year you want to ship two dozen new phone models (including variants) to markets around the world because that's how you make your money. Then let's say Microsoft were to come to them and say "OK, we're stopping all development on Windows Mobile 6.x for two years so we can re-create a whole new OS. You can keep selling Windows Mobile 6 for two years, OK?". That just wouldn't fly - so Microsoft had no choice but to develop both 6.5/6.5.3/etc. while simultaneously developing Windows phone 7. They had to keep their OEM partners happy and selling phones, while still creating something all-new behind the scenes...with two different teams up and running, essentially cutting their resources in half.

And let's not forget that having all the money in the world doesn't guarantee that you'll get the people you need in the right places - Microsoft has had a serious brain drain courtesy of Google over the past few years. Let's say you're a hotshot mobile developer - which is more appealing: working on a decade-old mobile OS, or a hot new OS (Android)? Great people make great products, so you need great people. Microsoft pulled their best people from across the entire company into the mobile effort about a year and a half ago - that's when they got really serious about re-inventing their mobile OS. You can do a lot in a year and a half, but you can't do everything you want to do.

This stuff is never as simple as people like to pretend it is. :)

Jason Dunn

03-24-2010, 09:16 PM

Yes, C&P is not "easy" in the sense that you can slap it together in a few minutes. It is, however, less hard than implementing it on a system that never had it in the first place (iPhone, for instance).

I'm curious as to why you'd say that - do you know for a fact that the iPhone OS had no clipboard-like functionality and their implementation of copy/paste was both the creation of the core functionality and the UI that went along with it?

I'd much rather hear that MS is working on a good solution and hasn't come up with a usable option yet than some double-talk about people not needing the functionality.

I agree 100%. I'd much rather have seen Microsoft come out and say "Hey, we know you want copy/paste, and we want it to, but we just didn't have the resources to get it done and still ship the product by holidays of 2010. We're working on it." I don't like the way they handled this.

kerrins

03-24-2010, 11:45 PM

Bottom line is that without copy and paste I won't buy Windows 7. I'll switch to an iPhone next April. I've been using MS exclusively since I got my first Compaq (HP) Ipaq about 10 years ago. I'm no Apple fanboy by any means, but MS is going the wrong direction for me.

Jason Dunn

03-24-2010, 11:46 PM

I'll switch to an iPhone next April.

Well, you never know what will happen by April 2011. :D

ptyork

03-25-2010, 01:36 AM

I'm curious as to why you'd say that - do you know for a fact that the iPhone OS had no clipboard-like functionality and their implementation of copy/paste was both the creation of the core functionality and the UI that went along with it?

At it's core, copy and paste is REALLY simple. You simply provide a shared set of methods to set and retrieve a shared piece of memory (a buffer) of bits. There's usually something that indicates what's in the buffer, as well. Advanced clipboard functionality may also allow an app to copy many different representations of their data to the buffer (such as rich text AND plain text).

What's somewhat harder is implementing the UI widgets that are able to properly set, retrieve, and properly reconstruct the contents of this buffer. Again, VERY easy with plain text, but much harder with rich text infused with graphics and such. None of it is rocket science, though. Develop a standard for reading and writing data, just like any basic file.

Darwin, the core of iPhone OS, I think is just a plain 'ol text-based POSIX kernel. I doubt this has any built in copy and paste functionality. But it certainly has the capability to create shared memory areas (either in RAM or on disk). How much of the OS X graphical core they ported, I don't know, but I'd assume it probably included copy and paste. Why not? But even if not, it probably took a week of one developer's time to design and code this. CE obviously includes much of the graphics subsystem, and most certainly includes the core copy and paste functionality.

Thanks for posting this interview. It was interesting. I agree that the UI portion is much bigger than the behind-the-scenes guts. However, I do still hold that it would definitely have taken less effort than implementing MANY other questionably useful features. And would have gone a long ways towards not alienating your entire install base of loyal customers.

Russ Smith

03-25-2010, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by Jason Dunn
Originally Posted by Russ Smith
Yes, C&P is not "easy" in the sense that you can slap it together in a few minutes. It is, however, less hard than implementing it on a system that never had it in the first place (iPhone, for instance).
I'm curious as to why you'd say that - do you know for a fact that the iPhone OS had no clipboard-like implementation of copy/paste was both the creation of the core functionality and the UI that went along with it?
I'm basing that on some knowledge of Unix, which OSX was built on top of. Unix doesn't have C&P at the kernel level because of it's birth in the command line world. The Unix/Linux-based GUIs all have it implemented within the GUI though.

On how to implement C&P in a finger-friendly fashion:
I just recently discovered that the HD2 has a C&P enhancement built in, but disabled.
Find it here --> [REF] *Leo Hints, Tips and Registry Tweaks* - Updated 4th March. - xda-developers (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=583638)
Basically, you press and hold your finger on any text in a HTC app and an iphone-esque selection procedure with handles to drag and highlight text will appear.

Rob Alexander

03-25-2010, 05:46 AM

On how to implement C&P in a finger-friendly fashion:
I just recently discovered that the HD2 has a C&P enhancement built in, but disabled.
Find it here --> [REF] *Leo Hints, Tips and Registry Tweaks* - Updated 4th March. - xda-developers (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=583638)
Basically, you press and hold your finger on any text in a HTC app and an iphone-esque selection procedure with handles to drag and highlight text will appear.

And there we have the crux of why so many of us are skeptical about the 'they didn't have the resources' argument. As with so many other things that MS didn't have the resources to do, somehow HTC found the resources to do it. A trip to XDA Developers is also enlightening that way. There, we see individuals achieving things that we keep hearing MS (and HTC!) doesn't have sufficient resources to do. If a smaller company like HTC, that is a hardware specialist, not a software company, can do it (not to mention an individual in their home) then I cannot accept that MS cannot. The bottom line is that everything is a tradeoff and MS chose to spend their time on eye candy before spending it on the actual features that we need. They made their choice and, starting in December, we get to make ours. The market will tell MS whether or not they made a correct decision.

alese

03-25-2010, 07:51 AM

This (and quite a few others regarding WP7S) is simply a stupid decision, regardess of how they try to spin it or justify it.
Yes it's not like one coder could do the cut/paste implementation in a week (actually he probably could technically, just the UI part would suck), but trying to show that it would take months of research and huge resources is just hard to belive.

Just like others have said it, HTC did it (faster than Microsoft on capacitive screen) and they are not software company, guys on XDA-Developers can certainly do it, Apple has done it (maybe they needed a year or two, but considering how long Microsoft was working on WP7S so what), Google has done it, Microsoft could do it if they wanted.

Maybe they should use the time and the effort used to defend this decision and put it into developing sollution - probaby they would have allready have it.

ptyork

03-25-2010, 07:56 AM

And there we have the crux of why so many of us are skeptical about the 'they didn't have the resources' argument. As with so many other things that MS didn't have the resources to do, somehow HTC found the resources to do it.

Amen!! Not only enough resource to accomplish such a monumental feat, but enough to say "meh, that's okay, but let's disable it by default." I'm sure a lawyer may have contributed to that decision, but nonetheless, this is not something that MS can just shrug off as being too difficult.

Seeing all those cool tweaks actually makes me wish I had a WM phone... :) As I've said before, it is obvious that MS is ceding the enthusiast / professional market to Android. Their choice.

ptyork

03-25-2010, 07:59 AM

Maybe they should use the time and the effort used to defend this decision and put it into developing sollution - probaby they would have allready have it.

Hey! Happy 500th post! :)

The only problem with this argument is that talking heads are defending it. Developers are (not) doing it. Hire one less talking head and two more developers. Problem solved. :)

ptyork

03-25-2010, 08:00 AM

Hey, happy 400th post to me! I need to go to bed...obviously...

griph

03-25-2010, 03:59 PM

Well, you never know what will happen by April 2011. :D
Well you never know - MS might actually have WP7S out by then! :D
Personally - if MS haven't got updates sorted out lack of basic functionality such as C&P will be a killer - and WP7S will plunge deeper than the marianas trench!

alese

03-26-2010, 05:44 AM

Hey! Happy 500th post! :)

The only problem with this argument is that talking heads are defending it. Developers are (not) doing it. Hire one less talking head and two more developers. Problem solved. :)

Thanks, haven't realized that it's the 500th.

You are completely right, and I'm pretty sure the decision about what to cut from the final release was also not done by developers.
In any case, one would expect that Microsoft would try to copy the best features/ideas from the competition, keep the strengts/advantages that they allready have and possibly add something new and innovative, but unfortunatelly they only copied (good and bad) - strange way to differentiate and try to beat market leades from behind.

Jason Dunn

03-26-2010, 04:03 PM

In any case, one would expect that Microsoft would try to copy the best features/ideas from the competition, keep the strengts/advantages that they allready have and possibly add something new and innovative, but unfortunatelly they only copied (good and bad) - strange way to differentiate and try to beat market leades from behind.

I find it really strange when people say that Windows phone 7 doesn't have any new features. There is no other phone on the market that has Live Tiles; some widgets might come close, but the implementation seems poor on other platforms. Other phones have Facebook applications, but Windows phone 7 will have Facebook integration. The way hubs work seems really unique to me, and the Xbox Live gaming element is unmatched on any other platform.

Windows phone 7 not be what you wanted it to be, but you're doing it a disservice to suggest that it brings nothing new to the table.

Lee Yuan Sheng

03-26-2010, 04:54 PM

Doesn't Palm WebOS have Facebook integration as well? Just asking. I recall being quite exciting about WebOS when Palm first announced it.

Jason Dunn

03-26-2010, 04:56 PM

Doesn't Palm WebOS have Facebook integration as well?

I'm not sure - I've never used a Pre for more than a few seconds. I guess it depends how deep it goes? The Facebook integration with HTC Sense on my HD2 is AMAZING, so I'm hoping for something similar on Windows phone 7.

Fritzly

03-26-2010, 07:26 PM

Windows phone 7 not be what you wanted it to be, but you're doing it a disservice to suggest that it brings nothing new to the table.

Interesting approach but the main issue is not what WP7 will add to the table but what is taking away of it.
IMO the trade off is not worth it and even worse it is unjustified.

Jason Dunn

03-26-2010, 08:41 PM

Interesting approach but the main issue is not what WP7 will add to the table but what is taking away of it.

That's just it - and I keep repeating this over and over - nothing has been "taken away". It hasn't been created yet. This is a do-over for Microsoft in the mobile space. It's a 1.0 operating system. Yes, things are missing. We don't know what will get added over the next couple of years to bring the feature-set back up to what we have now with WM 6.5.

It's completely fair to criticize Microsoft for not prioritizing features that you think Windows phone 7 should have, but it's not like they've remove features out of spite or something. Those features literally haven't been created yet.

IMO the trade off is not worth it and even worse it is unjustified.

I think the market share numbers over the past 12 months would indicate otherwise; Windows Mobile is on a downward slide and drastic action was necessary.

alese

03-27-2010, 01:33 AM

That's just it - and I keep repeating this over and over - nothing has been "taken away". It hasn't been created yet. This is a do-over for Microsoft in the mobile space. It's a 1.0 operating system. Yes, things are missing. We don't know what will get added over the next couple of years to bring the feature-set back up to what we have now with WM 6.5.

It's completely fair to criticize Microsoft for not prioritizing features that you think Windows phone 7 should have, but it's not like they've remove features out of spite or something. Those features literally haven't been created yet.

I think the market share numbers over the past 12 months would indicate otherwise; Windows Mobile is on a downward slide and drastic action was necessary.

So the biggest and richest software company in the world, after many many years of developing this new OS, and after watching Apple doing the "no copy/paste" and then implementing it, they figured that this is a good idea to do it themselves?

It would be like Ford creating a car without let's say windshield wipers two years after Crysler did the same (and had to redo it later) and saying that it's a new car, it wasn't taken away it just not done yet...

Anyhow it's stupid to argue about something like that. I think it's a stupid decision that will cost them, and it's not the only one, but that's just my opinion.
In any case I won't be getting a new device for some time, so I can easily wait and see if WP7S is actually better than it looks at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that after 10+ years of Microsoft mobile OS, my current Touch Pro2 is going to be the last at least for some time - Android looks tempting and it looks better to me as a mobile OS than Windows Phone and it has copy/paste built in :-)

alese

03-27-2010, 02:02 AM

I find it really strange when people say that Windows phone 7 doesn't have any new features. There is no other phone on the market that has Live Tiles; some widgets might come close, but the implementation seems poor on other platforms. Other phones have Facebook applications, but Windows phone 7 will have Facebook integration. The way hubs work seems really unique to me, and the Xbox Live gaming element is unmatched on any other platform.

Windows phone 7 not be what you wanted it to be, but you're doing it a disservice to suggest that it brings nothing new to the table.

You are completely right, Jason. WP7S has new features, UI is definatelly new and innovative and the Zune and xBox integration are also new and unique.
But, I still stand by my opinion that they didn't take the good out of the old OS and added the best stuff from others, they "just" copied iPhone (good and bad) and added the above stuff. For me as I don't play games or own xBox and since Zune is not really available anywhere but US, the only thing left is the UI, that I like in general, although I'm not sure it's going to be that great for phone usage (but we'll see).
If we add the missing features and the fact that all my software is useless anyway, there is really little reasons to stay with Microsoft.

Fritzly

03-27-2010, 04:46 AM

doogald

03-27-2010, 05:04 PM

MS has not learned from Vista: rushing out a product always backfire.

I'm going to take this from another direction. I have used Windows Mobile and its predecessors for a long time, starting with a PsPC, to an Axim PPC. Two years ago, I bought a Q9 WM Standard phone and, quite frankly, I hated it. The browser was just as crappy as what was in the Axim seven years earlier; PIM functions seemed to be worse, not better. The interface was terribly awkward, with the dumb start button and no stock way to customize the "Today" screen. Social networking apps were crap, because it was Standard, there were fewer apps for it, and there was really nothing new being developed.

I switched to an Android phone in December, and I really like it. It's so much better than anything WM right now, in my opinion, and I pretty much decided I would never go back.

Seeing what 7 will be, though, I am intrigued, in ways that even the HD2 is not intriguing to me. It feels like Microsoft did absolutely the right thing to throw everything out and start from scratch with something better. (And, yes, I do think that it is much, much better.) It may be missing some functionality from the start (though, honestly, I think that it's being exaggerated), but I could never see myself buying a WM 6.x phone next year when I am upgrade-eligible. I can definitely see myself considering 7, guessing that it will have gained some significant functionality by next August or so.

I still think that solving cut/copy/paste should have been a given from the time that this project was started, and I'm a bit surprised that Microsoft did not think so, but it's hardly the most important feature on a smartphone. Missing MMS or the ability to install third party apps from the start would have been far dumber, really.

Microsoft definitely had a dilemma here - keep supporting an obviously not very popular OS, hemorrhaging market share quickly while they perfected a replacement, or get 7 ramped up so that it was usable and supportable as quickly as possible and hope to stem the bleeding. This is not like Vista; XP was not in the same state that WM is in now in the marketplace.

Jason Dunn

03-27-2010, 06:53 PM

So the biggest and richest software company in the world, after many many years of developing this new OS...

No. Not many years. Try maybe 18 months of development at MOST, and I suspect it's closer to 12. This is super-critical for you to be aware of when you're criticizing Microsoft about the things they haven't added yet. Microsoft has been dropping the ball for YEARS with their "next gen" Mobile OS, and it's only fairly recently that they've gotten things on track. I saw "Photon" back in 2004, and it was supposed to be about two years out back then. But year after year, Microsoft kept having false starts with it - I personally think it came down to poor leadership - and year after year they'd patch things here and there on Windows Mobile and continue to slog ahead on the "next big thing".

It wasn't until about 18 months ago when Microsoft did a huge re-org with their mobile group, bringing in the best talent that Microsoft had company-wide, that they really started to turn things around and made progress on Windows phone 7. They moved all the Zune/Windows Mobile designers together, gave them their own building (Pioneer Studios), and really started moving toward a common vision for the mobile space. The Zune HD was, by and large, a UI experiment as a pre-cursor to Windows phone 7. It's all a variation of Metro.

It's entirely fair to be critical of Microsoft for the years of almost no progress as the market passed them by, and for the way they horribly screwed up a really strong market position. But when you're attacking them for not having copy/paste, and whatever else you think Windows phone 7 is missing, you can't say that they've been working on this for years and years. They screwed up horribly for years, went off the rails, are finally back on track, and Windows phone 7 is a bit of a rushed product that's missing a bunch of stuff they wish they had time to add. It really is a 1.0 product, and as such, it's a work in progress much more than Windows Mobile 6.x is.

Jason Dunn

03-27-2010, 07:04 PM

Well, I completely disagree: my HTC HD2 has "cut and paste", "removable storage" and I can use cab to install new programs.

I don't follow you here. Your HD2 is based on Windows Mobile 6.5, an operating system that has been out for 10 YEARS. It's had time to mature and is a powerful operating system; but it's also a stylus-based operating system based on a decade-old user interface paradigm. Windows phone 7 is radically different than anything that came before it.

When Windows XP, or even Windows 2000, came out they were a compelte departure from the 95/98/Millenium lines still they added new features without loosing any of the previously available ones.

I'm not a developer, so I can't explain this properly, but from Windows 95 onward, Windows has had the same basic user interface paradigm. The same basic controls and the same basic way that things work. That's one of the common criticisms that some people have of Microsoft - that Windows hasn't radically changed since Windows 95. Sure, the guts have changed, the kernel has changed, etc. - but the UI? It's stayed the same. Windows phone 7 is a guts change (CE 6) and a UI change. Why do you keep ignoring that fact?

I'd say Windows Mobile 6.5 compared to Windows phone 7 is more like comparing Windows 3.1 to Windows 95. That was a real quantum leap - it was radically different top to bottom; both the guts and the UI changed. That was a lot of years ago, so frankly I don't recall what/if Windows 95 had things missing from it that Windows 3.1 had, but I'm sure there were some things. It was also a completely different era; Microsoft could take their time with Windows 95 because Windows 3.1 was so dominant. The mobile marketplace is a very different thing...

Finally what "create" has to do with forbidding removable storage? It is a decision that has nothing to do with technical challenges.

For all we know, Windows phone 7 doesn't have support for removable storage because they didn't build it into the product. I have no idea, and neither do you. Not having removable storage simplifies things for Microsoft though, and for developers. I personally hope they add it in a future version of the product - I think removable storage cards are a great advantage over Apple.

MS has not learned from Vista: rushing out a product always backfire.

Oh, so you weren't one of those people who were screaming last year that Windows Mobile 7 (as it was then called) was already late and Microsoft needed to get it to market ASAP? You were saying they should take their time and release it when it was feature-complete? Come on, be honest here...

Fritzly

03-27-2010, 09:43 PM

Windows phone 7 is a guts change (CE 6) and a UI change. Why do you keep ignoring that fact?

Actually it seems to me that you ignore the fact that CE 6 SUPPORT "Cut and Paste" as well as "Removable storage". The problem MS is facing is to find a way to implement "cut and paste" that does not infringe any patents belonging to other companies.
In the long terms, being upfront instead of issuing pathetic statements like "People do not like it so we did not include this and that" always pay off.

For all we know, Windows phone 7 doesn't have support for removable storage because they didn't build it into the product. I have no idea, and neither do you. Not having removable storage simplifies things for Microsoft though, and for developers. I personally hope they add it in a future version of the product - I think removable storage cards are a great advantage over Apple....

As for storage support again CE 6 support it; not having storage greatly improved MS control over what I can do, this is sure. A different question is if this was good for the customers; in my opinion it is not.

]Oh, so you weren't one of those people who were screaming last year that Windows Mobile 7 (as it was then called) was already late and Microsoft needed to get it to market ASAP? You were saying they should take their time and release it when it was feature-complete? Come on, be honest here...

Not last year, way before it, I was indeed one of those SHAREHOLDERS concerned that MS, after loosing the predominant position in the mobile market, a position they found themselves in because of Palm inertia, instead of avoid to repeat Palm errors they took the same exact attitude; not only that but instead of regroup and prepare a response to the launch of the iPhone the company Top Management, living in some kind of Nirvana, dismissed it as a failure.
Finally the same brilliant minds are now rushing out a half baked product, the limitations of which is seriously jeopardizing its chances of success.

So no, I am not screaming, I am begging Bill G. to come back and rescue the ship........ as well as my retirement (-:.

Jason Dunn

03-30-2010, 01:16 AM

Actually it seems to me that you ignore the fact that CE 6 SUPPORT "Cut and Paste" as well as "Removable storage". The problem MS is facing is to find a way to implement "cut and paste" that does not infringe any patents belonging to other companies.

Did you happen to read the article you're posting questions to? Just because Windows CE 6 supports storage cards doesn't mean it's trivial for Windows phone 7 to support it. No offence, but I'll take the word of Mel Sampat and other Windows phone team members over yours any day.

As for Microsoft's problem with Copy and Paste, the legal aspect is just one possible reason - you're stating it like a fact, as if you work for Microsoft. If you have some inside information, please feel free to share. If you're just guessing, say so - don't pretend you know.