Windows phone 7 Will Lack Copy & Paste: Please Proceed With Your Screaming and Yelling

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/16/windows-phone-7-series-wont-have-copy-and-paste/' target='_blank'>http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/16/...copy-and-paste/</a><br /><br /></div><p><em>"Ready for another long, drawn-out copy and paste controversy to overtake your every waking moment for a year or two? Good: Microsoft just mentioned in a Q&amp;A session here at MIX10 in no uncertain terms that clipboard operations won't be supported on Windows Phone 7 Series... so that's that."</em></p><p>This is one of the groan-worthy things I learned about Windows phone 7 about a month ago, but haven't been able to share because it was under NDA. So...uh, yeah, no copy and paste right now in the product. Every MVP in the room had a fit when this information was revealed; it was real "shock and awe". We of course immediately started asking the team how they could leave out something so core to user experience, and the general response was that they wanted to have it in the product, but they couldn't fit it in by shipping time. I know, I know, many of you will feel they should have left something else out of the product and put in copy and paste. But, you know, <a href="http://www.istartedsomething.com/20100316/windows-update-like-service-coming-to-windows-phone-7-series/?utm_source=feedburner&amp;utm_medium=feed&amp;utm_campaign=Feed:+istartedsomething+(istartedsomething)" target="_blank">there's this update thing</a> that might make painful omissions like this easy for Microsoft to fix in the months after they go code complete, but before the products actually hit the shelves. The Zune HD that I took out of the box was missing a bunch of feature until I connected it and got the update so...there's hope. But proceed with your screaming and ranting anyway. ;-)</p><p><strong>UPDATE:</strong> Todd Brix from Microsoft is <a href="http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-20000585-56.html?tag=newsLatestHeadlinesArea.0" target="_blank">saying the lack of copy/paste is by design</a>.</p>

[Macguy59]

Windows Phone executive Todd Brix seems to have a different take

By design (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-20000585-56.html?tag=newsLatestHeadlinesArea.0)

[Macguy59]

Considering the constant beating that iPhone took for lack of 3rd party app multitasking and no copy-paste . . . this should be fun to watch :p

[whydidnt]

It seems odd that WP7 is about 2 years late, yet still doesn't support something as basic as cut and paste. I've mentioned before that I'm convinced Microsoft has but one lonely programmer working on windows mobile. The rest the team is busy marketing and poking fun at the device Microsoft seems most intent on copying. Strnage strategy to me.

[doogald]

Windows Phone executive Todd Brix seems to have a different take

By design (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-20000585-56.html?tag=newsLatestHeadlinesArea.0)

"We don't enable copy and paste and we do that very intentionally," Windows Phone executive Todd Brix said in an interview.

Brix said many times when a user copies something on a phone, what they really are looking to do is take a specific action, such as calling a phone number or e-mailing an address. For those specific tasks, Microsoft has what it calls "smart linking," which lets a user double click on a phone number and either call it or add it to the phone book. For an address, one can get a map without having to copy and paste the address.

"It's actually an intentional design decision," he said. "We try to anticipate what the user wants so copy and paste isn't necessary."

You know where else copy and paste comes in handy? When I am entering in my complex and very random WPA2 encryption key when setting up WiFi. I had to do that when I set up my son's Touch a couple of years ago, and it wasn't pretty.

Or simply entering passwords for forum websites like this one.

If that wasn't simple spin (which is what I'm guessing), then what a dough-head.

[ptyork]

I swear, WP7 really makes me vomit the more I see and hear about it. I think perhaps if they'd called it MediaPhone 1.0 or PinkOS 1.0 or something, perhaps I'd have less ire. But to try and fool anyone into thinking of this as a 7.0 OS is sad. And to abandon 6.5 generations worth of features (and users and apps) in order to play a wannabe, also-ran, Zune-like role to the iPhone is wretch-worthy. Very pretty. Very "cool." Very, unnecessarily flashy. Very lacking in deep substance. Very much like most any skin (Samsung TouchWiz, Sony-Ericsson Panels, etc.) applied to any phone since the iPhone came out.

Yes, I've barely used the copy/paste on my iPhone. Maybe 10 times. But when I need it, it is needed. And fundamental. To completely ignore it and then try and play it off like you did it on purpose because "you don't really need it" is just so freaking Apple-like...and obviously not the good side of Apple. It is seriously embarrassing. Like, cower behind a bush embarrassing. And arrogant. Something that seems endearing (to some) coming from Steve Jobs is not so much coming from Steve Ballmer.

We'll see where this is in a few years, if it is there in a few years, but man, I can't even begin to think about supporting this kind of crap out of a company I generally so respect and defend. Please, Bill, come back!!!

/Rant

PS - Yes, I know there is some better-than-iPhone substance there, like being able to register an app as a photo editor or video editor (though it is mighty kludgy right now) and I definitely like the organization of the interface better than the iPhone. I'm just really angry that they lost so much and seem to be allowing themselves to be dragged around by Apple's tail. And getting whipped by it. We didn't need another iPhone. We needed a better (much), more modern Windows Mobile. And this ain't it.

[Jason Dunn]

Windows Phone executive Todd Brix seems to have a different take.

Utterly ridiculous. This is lipstick on a pig; they're trying to make it sound like a feature they couldn't cram into the code in time is really on "purpose" and when they have the development resources to get it added, they'll say it's being added due to user demand. :rolleyes:

[Rob Alexander]

Honestly, nothing ever changes with Microsoft. I recall saying a few times in the past (moving from Palm-sized PC to PPC, from PPC to WM, from WM5 to 6) that every time MS updates their software, they add one feature you want and three features you don't care about, then they remove two features you really, really need. This is a much bigger change, starting an OS from scratch, but they just couldn't help themselves... they did the same thing again, but on a larger scale. The arrogance of Brix's explanation is staggering... that they know what I want to cut and paste and why.

Jason, who are you kidding that they'll update the OS with this later? Before you answer, please count out loud to yourself the number of years (or versions) that users demanded a close button while MS ignored us completely, insisting that they knew how to use our devices better than we did. Brix makes it completely clear that this is not just a feature to be added later, but an intentional decision, but even if he hadn't, don't we really have enough experience with MS to know what will happen? (Or what won't happen in this case.) Anyone who buys a WP7 had better do so with the full expectation that they will never, ever see a copy and paste function. Perhaps the venders could incude a little paper notebook and pen in the box for users to jot notes on for when they want to move information between applications.

As for me, this pretty much sets my future. Does Android copy and paste? (I must admit, I never considered that question before.) If so, then I guess Android is my next phone. I am grateful to SPB for deciding to make a Mobile Shell for it.

[Jason Dunn]

Jason, who are you kidding that they'll update the OS with this later? Before you answer, please count out loud to yourself the number of years (or versions) that users demanded a close button while MS ignored us completely, insisting that they knew how to use our devices better than we did. Brix makes it completely clear that this is not just a feature to be added later, but an intentional decision...

What is said to the press isn't always the reality of the situation; you can be sure that this response was pre-determined by Microsoft PR and the said "OK, when this ugly truth is known and people are starting to freak out about it, here's what we're going to say...we're going to spin it like it's something we meant to do".

The truth wouldn't play as well with the media: "We had to make some really hard decisions with this brand new OS - we re-did everything from scratch, which took tremendous developer resources, and when we compared having copy and paste to Live Tiles, Facebook integration or several other high-profile features, copy and paste just didn't make the list. We're sorry and we're committing to our users to have it included as soon as possible."

Personally, I would have preferred the truth, but hey, that's just me.

As for me, this pretty much sets my future. Does Android copy and paste? (I must admit, I never considered that question before.) If so, then I guess Android is my next phone.

I'm the king of hyperbole sometimes, but really? The lack of copy/paste is enough for you to write off this whole OS? Really? How often do you use copy/paste every week? I agree that they should have added it, but in the grand scheme of everything that Windows phone 7 offers, the lack of copy and paste is a minor irritation to me at best, and likely not something I'll notice until I need it and can't use it. I'm sure I'll get irked, but come on, life is too short for this. :)

[Cattle-Dog]

I was actually looking forward to coming back to MS, despite those butt ugly tiles. Too many compromises though. I guess the HD2 will be the last great windows mobile. :(

[Xentrax]

MS is known to use kind of iterative approach to software development. Now we have v1.0 of the product targeted at dumb customers who nevertheless need a smartphone not a dumb phone.

MS needs another 2 years not only to decide if they need to target enterprise audience and geeky audience but also to implement such kind of functionality.

[Rob Alexander]

What is said to the press isn't always the reality of the situation; you can be sure that this response was pre-determined by Microsoft PR and the said "OK, when this ugly truth is known and people are starting to freak out about it, here's what we're going to say...we're going to spin it like it's something we meant to do".

The truth wouldn't play as well with the media: "We had to make some really hard decisions with this brand new OS - we re-did everything from scratch, which took tremendous developer resources, and when we compared having copy and paste to Live Tiles, Facebook integration or several other high-profile features, copy and paste just didn't make the list. We're sorry and we're committing to our users to have it included as soon as possible."

Personally, I would have preferred the truth, but hey, that's just me.

Me too, if it actually is the truth. In fact, it would play much better to the media to say something that made sense, than the drivel we're getting from Brix. Listen, if you are publicly stating that a source within Microsoft has actually told you this, then give us the details... who said it, what did they say and when. Otherwise, it's just speculation and our very long history with MS in mobile computing speaks more strikingly to me. Throughout the entire life of Windows CE, MS has never capitulated to the desires of its users once a design decision was made. I don't see any reason to think they will start now.

I'm the king of hyperbole sometimes, but really? The lack of copy/paste is enough for you to write off this whole OS? Really? How often do you use copy/paste every week? I agree that they should have added it, but in the grand scheme of everything that Windows phone 7 offers, the lack of copy and paste is a minor irritation to me at best, and likely not something I'll notice until I need it and can't use it. I'm sure I'll get irked, but come on, life is too short for this. :)

Actually, life is too short to sit around waiting for MS to get off their backsides and give us the features we need. If someone else has them, then that's what I'll buy. But to be more responsive to your question, it isn't just copy/paste, is it? It's no multitasking, it's no customization (red, green, blue, orange highlights don't count), it's no installation of applications outside of Marketplace and, yes, it's no copy/paste.

To answer your other question, I used copy/paste twice today. I copied the brand name of an item I might want to buy (and its company) from my browser into a note so I could find it later. I don't recall Mr. Brix anticipating that scenario. Later, I copied a long account number out of eWallet and pasted it into a message for my wife. I don't recall Mr. Brix anticipating that scenario either. (In fact, his OS would have tried to dial the account number like a phone number.) Is it possible that he can't actually anticipate the specific things I need to copy and paste?

I'm just estimating, but I probably use copy/paste about 10 times a week. This is not small for me. I keep a lot of information in my phone and I use it extensively. Moving information around is a major part of what makes the phone useful to me. It was easier for iPhone users; they never had it until they got it. But having it taken away is a big deal... a much bigger deal than multitasking.

As it turns out, though, I actually have Microsoft's strategy in this all figured out. It clicked in my mind when I read the paragraph below at PocketNow (http://pocketnow.com/rumor/iphone-40-brings-universal-multitouch-multitasking).

"Another round of rumors, and this time it's not Microsoft's Windows Mobile 7 platform that's being talked about, but rather Cupertino's iPhone 4.0 software upgrade is said to be debuting at the Apple event later this month. According to the leaks to BGR, the new iPhone 4.0 software will be available as an upgrade to iPhone 3G and 3GS users and brings a number of new features that is said to “put them ahead in the smartphone market because it will make them more like full-fledged computers. Among the rumored features, the new software update will bring multitouch to the entire OS, some form of multitasking, and some UI changes.”

So now I get it. Apple kicked MS's hiney all over the market when MS had a phone with multitasking and copy/paste and Apple didn't. I think MS's big plan is that, now that the iPhone will have multitasking and copy/paste, all MS has to do it build a phone without them and they'll be the ones to dominate the market. Quite brilliant in its simplicity, really, and it makes as much sense as the reasons Mr. Brix gave us. :D Of course, I know you believe Brix is just blowing smoke, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[Darius Wey]

As for me, this pretty much sets my future. Does Android copy and paste? (I must admit, I never considered that question before.) If so, then I guess Android is my next phone. I am grateful to SPB for deciding to make a Mobile Shell for it.

FYI, Android does support copy-and-paste.

As much as WP7's omission of copy-and-paste sucks, unless a customer is an active Office user or someone who does a lot of URL pasting in e-mails, note apps, and/or social networking clients (and I believe this collective crowd, of which we both belong to, is a minority among all users), it probably won't affect them too much. I use a wide range of apps across a wide range of mobile devices -- from iPhones to Android devices to Windows Mobile devices -- and aside from the aforementioned use cases, I really struggle to find a more compelling reason for copy-and-paste's existence. So at the end of the day, the average Joe probably couldn't care less.

[Jason Dunn]

Listen, if you are publicly stating that a source within Microsoft has actually told you this, then give us the details... who said it, what did they say and when.

I can't give you names, but at the MVP Summit I spoke at length with several Windows phone PM's who were absolutely not defending the lack of copy/paste in any way. They did tell us about the "smart linking" feature, but as a "OK, we know it's bad to not have copy/paste right out of the gate, but here's something that makes it slightly less bad" kind of way. Perhaps they were just placating a room full of ticked off MVPs who knew the various communities they represented were not going to be happy about this omission, but I didn't get the sense I was being lied to. I really do believe the Windows phone team knows how completely idiotic it is for them to not have copy/paste.

To answer your other question, I used copy/paste twice today. I copied the brand name of an item I might want to buy (and its company) from my browser into a note so I could find it later. I don't recall Mr. Brix anticipating that scenario. Later, I copied a long account number out of eWallet and pasted it into a message for my wife.

OK, fair enough. Not unusual scenarios by any stretch of the imagination, and I agree 100% that Brix's explanation of why this feature isn't needed is utterly ridiculous. I'm not defending the lack of this feature, I'm just saying that for me, thus far, it wouldn't bother me.

So much is really unknown until I get a device in my hands and start to really use it...

[Gerard]

Different strokes for different users Jason. Sounds from your comments on this little 'woops' from Microsoft that your uses for a Windows phone are considerably less text-intensive than a lot of other users. Of course the lack of copy/cut/paste functionality with images will be meaningless with WP7S, since there's no stylus support anyway and thus serious use for on-the-fly graphics work is out the window. Forget about those users who bought the rather pricey Pocket Phojo for instance, serious photojournalists who depend on being able to manipulate imagery while in the field, often on their phone where it is eminently practical to process and send images off to the publishers. Forget about Pocket Artist and every other graphics application along with it, barring the finger-friendly but very basic editing features in Resco Photo Manager.

How often do others use copy/paste? For my part, I'd guess about 20 to 30 times in an average week. Partially quoting emails, pasting text into emails, entering passwords as has been covered lots already, editing articles... it's really a very handy function set to have. Hence the iPhone eventually getting it, after a fashion, due to user protest.

But really, all I was clicking on the 'reply' button to say was hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah.... <gasp> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Too friggin' hilarious! They've chucked out the only decent computing phone OS and now they're trying to sell us this dreck? HAHAHAHAHAH!

[landswipe]

Hear, hear! Great points put forward by posters.

I had a quick look under the covers of the recently released WP7 emulator and it seems (I might well be wrong) that much of the work MS have been demoing of WP7 is actually built on an internal framework called Iris (rooted in Windows Media Center). It is also called UIX and (binary form UIB) - it is not Silverlight.

So while third party developers are relegated to .NET with Silverlight, XNA - Microsoft seem to have built the current showcase in native code on top of UIX (which it also shares with Zune HD).

Some of the Office hub is already buried in the emulator just disabled (eg. Office Hub and apps ported from Pocket/Mobile office).

What I want to know is where are the screenshots/demo's of basic phone functions like making a call, contact lists, todo lists, calculator, etc ?

See here.. http://www.istartedsomething.com/20071116/microsoft-iris-uix-framework-zune/

[martin_ayton]

Well, I'm not going to scream and shout about this. I do think it's stupid, but I accept that it's one of those 1.0 things. The thing is, even with a 1.0 device, they are not in a 1.0 marketplace. Despite RIM, WM, Palm etc., the iPhone was sufficiently game-changing for a sufficiently large number of people that they effectively created a 1.0 marketplace and could get away with deficiencies at launch. Time has moved on and WP7 is definitely going to go head-to-head with the iPhone, so it will not be so easily forgiven for silly omissions, whatever their marketing department may say.

The thing that I find odd about all this is that I care! I don't care as much as I do about, say, my family or my employer, but I do care a bit. For someone who has always claimed to be interested purely in the functionality and who doesn't 'get' the tribal thing that Apple has done with its customer base, the fact that I care - even a little bit - has come as something of a shock. Even though I am still likely to jump ship to Android when the time comes to change my current device, I will delay that decision as long as I can in the hope that WP7 will actually impress me after all. And, if I do have to go, I'm pretty sure I'll feel sad about it. What is wrong with me? I think I need to go and have a lie down in a darkened room...

[stlbud]

I have to ask. There has to be some reason for leaving the clipboard out. Is it DRM? Is it security? Is it to save the whales?

[stlbud]

...but I accept that it's one of those 1.0 things.

Windows CE 1.0 and all versions since have had a clipboard (ergo cut and paste). Why should this 1.0 be different?

I still think there is something deeper and more sinister about this. Call me a tin foil hat wearing freak, but there is some secret reason that Apple and Microsoft are not talking about.

[jmjstandin]

I have stuck with Windows Mobile for many years despite some faults and the lack of a slick interface (cured by my present HTC HD2) in earlier versions. One major reason was that I could copy/paste, e.g., when composing an email, editing a Word file, copying notes from a Web page. Having the USB mode for file transfers saved my life yesterday when I absolutely had to print a document while travelling. Multi-tasking is also very necessary for all kinds of reasons. I utterly depend on sync'ing my eWallet file with all my passwords etc from phone to two different PCs (and I frequently copy/paste account info from it into Web forms). I do all these things frequently and spurned the iPhone and others because they didn't allow such operatons.

Why is Microsoft allowing this man Brix to destroy all the best things about Windows Mobile and turn it into a useless entertainment device ? He has got to go, and fast!! I really don't want to switch to Android when my HD2 reaches the end of its life but it looks as if Microsoft will give me no other choice. Or perhaps I will buy up a stock of HD2's to get me through to retirement.

[Russ Smith]

Well [insert scatological reference here]. First no real multi-tasking, then no cut-and-paste. Microsoft seems intent on taking the worst of other OSes and incorporating them into 7.

I like the UI. I like the general idea of hubs to organize operations. What I don't like is throwing away those things that made WM my OS of choice all this time. I didn't get an iPhone because it originally lacked cut-and-paste, it didn't do multi-tasking, and it was locked down by the fascists at Apple. Apple caved on the first and now, just as they're caving on the second, Microsoft decides to take those features out of it's new OS.

Why is this so important? I want to be able to pause my e-book, take a phone call, then start where I left off. I want to be able to look up contact information while I"m talking to someone on the phone. I want to be able to copy a line or two from an e-mail into a to-do item. I want to be able to check the status of said to-do, while I'm on the phone to someone who's asking about it. Without such functionality, WP7 may be pretty, but it may also be pretty useless.

I'm used to giving MS the benefit of the doubt. I'm still going to look at WP7 with some interest, but, now that I have to buy new apps and (as it seems) lose the functionality above, I'm much more likely to stay with 6.5 or shift to Android.

This is the problem with making bold, daring moves like changing the concept of the whole OS: Sometimes you lose some or all of your biggest supporters.

[Dyvim]

Why is this so important? I want to be able to pause my e-book, take a phone call, then start where I left off. I want to be able to look up contact information while I"m talking to someone on the phone. I want to be able to copy a line or two from an e-mail into a to-do item. I want to be able to check the status of said to-do, while I'm on the phone to someone who's asking about it. Without such functionality, WP7 may be pretty, but it may also be pretty useless.
You know that you can do all of these things on an iPhone, right? And I'm guessing that (aside from the copy and paste part) WP7S will do them too. Just because the 2 platforms don't allow 3rd party apps to run in the background doesn't mean that they don't allow the native apps (phone, calendar, music player, browser, etc.) to run in the background while you use a 3rd party app. Also, while multi-tasking (or as I prefer to think of it, "backgrounding") is essential for services like Pandora, many apps if coded properly can obviate the need for it. Case in point: an eReader app that saves your state and starts quickly. What do you care if it's running in the background or not as long as when you flip back to it, it shows up quickly (instantaneously if possible) and returns you exactly to where you were? This for instance is how the Amazon Kindle app works on iPhone. Developers didn't know how to do this very well 2 years ago (because we didn't need to until Apple came along with the iPhone SDK and forbid multi-tasking but stressed quick startup and always saving state), but now many of us are getting pretty good at it. So I expect that the major dev's writing software for WP7S will know how to do it right too.

I know it's still a hassle with those apps (e.g. games) that take time to load. I hope WP7S and the next iPhone both allow you to do simple operations (like change your settings) without having to close the currently running 3rd party app.

I for one am pretty excited about all this WP7S news. My company had given up developing for WM a few years back, but we're getting excited about the platform again (esp. leveraging our desktop WPF knowledge via Silverlight for great new handheld UI's).

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

Well done. So, we're back at iPhone OS 1.0, but without the coolness and newness of it when it was first released?


I really don't see a compelling reason to get this over iPhone 3.0 as it is. In fact I'm now even more sore that I lost my HD2.

[Dyvim]

Well done. So, we're back at iPhone OS 1.0, but without the coolness and newness of it when it was first released?
Come on now. At worst we're back at iPhone OS 2.0 (1.0 didn't have an SDK or any apps)- and in some cases you're much further along (think cross-platform game development for WP7S/PC/XBox) and believe me most Microsoft programmers will be far happier with the choice of VS 2010 and Expression Blend as development tools than with say XCode and objective c for iPhone development (which is great for Mac developers but can be like learning German for Windows developers).

The coolness factor, however, is debatable and remains to be seen.;)

Still think they should call it XPhone or ZunePhone or any other possible new name other than Windows Phone 7 Series which is (a) a misnomer since it's neither a sequel to WM 6.5 nor has any real connection with desktop Windows 7, and (b) is an awful name (from a consumer perspective) which won't win them any market share.

[Craig Horlacher]

<rant>
Ok, I give up on WinMo. Microsoft is just as stupid as Apple!!! How about a Zune with no screen - is that what's next?!?!??!

I started with a Nino 325, then got a Casio E125, then a Toshiba E830, and now I'm using an iMate Ultimate 6150. Every one of these has copy and paste! Even my HP OmniGo 120 (before the Nino) had copy and paste that worked very well! I will not buy a mobile device that doesn't have copy and paste!

There is only one app I'm waiting for to be ported to Android. I was starting to get excited about WinPhone based on what I've read and seen but this is a deal-breaker. Does anyone at Microsoft use any mobile devices for anything productive?!?!? Did you ever copy a photo and paste it in a document, email, or spreadsheet? Buy a copy of SoftMaker Office and see what windows mobile is really capable of. Then go back to the drawing board of WinPhone 7 and give the thing real multitasking (make it an option to enable if you have to) and copy and paste - they do kind of go hand in hand though if you're not going to have multi tasking you at least need copy and paste since you can't switch back and forth to copy data.
</rant>

[Omegajb]

So WM7 will be almost usless as a PDA. Great!

[alese]

To be "a bit" sarcastic.
Why did they spend all these countless hours in development and millions of dollars? Why did they even started this project? Wouldn't be easier, cheaper and faster for Microsoft to just get Steve B. to call Steve J. and ask, if they could buy/licence the iPhone OS 2.0 change the collors a bit and rename it?
After all, that's pretty much what they did, an exact copy of iPhone with "features" or lack of them.

Yes I know the UI is different and there is focus on social... but that's pretty much it.
The more I think about it, the more it looks to me that giving this project to Zune team was a bad idea.
Now the Windows Phone looks just like Zune, they are copying stuff from Apple, add some social focus a different interface and release product that is exactly like the current (or in Phone's case two generations back) Apple product and of course in couple of months easily behind the next generation Apple product.

[bigray327]

It's official, after 10 years and thousands of dollars, this will be my last WM device.

Jason, how often do I use cut and paste? A hell of a lot more than I'll use Xbox Live on my freaking phone.

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

Come on now. At worst we're back at iPhone OS 2.0 (1.0 didn't have an SDK or any apps)- and in some cases you're much further along (think cross-platform game development for WP7S/PC/XBox)




Ok, 2.0, but that was what, 2 years ago?


And in my case, Xbox integration is useless to me, so that's a feature that won't appeal to me. I have my PC for games. :P

[yawanag]

Yikes! They can't be for real. Cut & Paste was the best thing Windows had going for it. I'm glad I found that out before I began drooling for WM 7.

[TTown]

This reminds me of the day McCain chose Palin for VP. We all know how that worked out.

Windows 7 is dead before it came out.

RIP Windows 7

[egads]

It's official, after 10 years and thousands of dollars, this will be my last WM device.

Jason, how often do I use cut and paste? A hell of a lot more than I'll use Xbox Live on my freaking phone.

Well said, my thoughts exactly.
Like someone else said, I find it odd that I care so much about this but what MS is going to WinMo REALLY PISSES me off. Next phone will be a BlackBerry or Android!

[Jason Dunn]

...Microsoft decides to take those features out of it's new OS.

Nope. These features simply haven't been created yet. It's important - critical in fact - to not think of Windows phone 7 as an update to Windows Mobile 6.5. The number scheme they've used confuses that fact, but Windows phone 7 is an entirely new operating system. Every feature you're seeing in Windows phone 7 has been created from what I understand; so Microsoft didn't remove copy/paste, they haven't created it yet. The same goes for multi-tasking, etc. Windows phone 7 isn't even based on the same Windows CE core as 6.5 is; it's based on Windows CE 6.

It's an entirely new operating system - a true 1.0 product - and as such, is missing things Microsoft wants to add to it later. This matter is being confused by what's being publicly stated by Microsoft in terms of what they intended for copy/paste, which is unfortunate.

[buckyg]

Jason, your point about these features not being created yet is well taken. Based on history so far, it will take Microsoft a long time to add them. And if/when they do, will it be a simple update we will get through a new update feature? Or will it be just like now, where they pass the update to the carriers/device companies, and we are at their mercy as to whether we can get the update without buying a new phone?

This is a question yet to be answered, like many others. I will wait and see, but Android continues to be a very attractive option to me so far.

[Jason Dunn]

Come on now. At worst we're back at iPhone OS 2.0 (1.0 didn't have an SDK or any apps)- and in some cases you're much further along...

I feel like I'm in a backwards bizarro world where you're defending Microsoft. :D

Still think they should call it XPhone or ZunePhone or any other possible new name other than Windows Phone 7 Series which is (a) a misnomer since it's neither a sequel to WM 6.5 nor has any real connection with desktop Windows 7, and (b) is an awful name (from a consumer perspective) which won't win them any market share.

I like the name Windows phone as a general product name - "Windows" has huge mindshare as a term for Microsoft operating systems - and "phone" is simply descriptive. Windows phone 7 Series is marketing blah-blah that no one will use. When Windows Mobile 6.5 phones fade off the market in 2011/2012 (if they last that long), the term "Windows phone" will only then refer to the Windows phone 7 phones. Apple can get away with iEverything, but most other companies need to use more than one word to name a platform/device.

I do agree though 100% that for anyone that knows Windows Mobile today, giving it the number 7 causes an expectation of an upgrade over what they have today, which isn't the reality - this is a 1.0 product with lots of stuff missing. Regular consumers won't know/care however, and given the wave of good vibes that Windows 7 is riding, drafting off that by putting 7 in the name of the mobile OS makes a lot of sense...even if it pisses off everyone here. :o

[Dyvim]

I feel like I'm in a backwards bizarro world where you're defending Microsoft. :D
Heh, heh! Actually I love Microsoft- they're my bread and butter. I work all day every day programming on Windows PC's (which is part of why I enjoy trying to use a Mac on my down time). I love their development tools (Visual Studio and Expression Blend), SQL Server, etc. I just gave up on their mobile OS after I felt it was stagnating and a competitor came along with what for me was a better mobile experience. I never even meant to try an iPhone- I just got one for my wife and then somehow infected myself!

Back on topic, I don't mind simply "Windows Phone", or "Windows Phone 1", but "Windows Phone 7 Series" is both misleading and a confusing mouthful.

It's an entirely new operating system - a true 1.0 product
Well, at least it's an entirely new operating system shell. Kind of hard to argue it's an entirely new OS when it's based on Windows CE 6.0 (which I believe does support a clipboard at the Win32 API level). The problem I think is that as Apple figured out, it's not easy to offer a good GUI for copy and paste on a finger-only capacitive touch screen. Character accurate text selection isn't easy without a stylus and a resistive screen (which like it or not seems to be the direction mobile computing is heading in for now).

Anyway, back to my single-tasking...

[Jason Dunn]

Jason, how often do I use cut and paste? A hell of a lot more than I'll use Xbox Live on my freaking phone.

A fair point - but you do realize that gaming is the #1 application-based thing that people do with their phones, right? Apple has more or less said that the iPhone is a gaming platform that also makes calls. So, yeah, it sucks that there's no copy and paste, but don't down-play the extremely important nature of gaming on Windows phone 7. The market out there wants it, even if you might not.

[Jason Dunn]

Jason, your point about these features not being created yet is well taken. Based on history so far, it will take Microsoft a long time to add them. And if/when they do, will it be a simple update we will get through a new update feature? Or will it be just like now, where they pass the update to the carriers/device companies, and we are at their mercy as to whether we can get the update without buying a new phone?

I am, much to my near boiling-over frustration :mad:, being hampered by Microsoft PR right now - I want to answer your question in great detail, but my NDA prevents it, even though Microsoft has made some short public statements about device updates. What I will say is that the model of Microsoft > OEM > Carrier > You is the past. Windows phone 7 is the future, and in this aspect, the future is very, very good indeed. I'll say more when I can. :(

[037]

Yes, Android can copy and paste.

But what do I use it for?

Use Case 1:
Somebody sends over an SMS with a phone number of another person. I tap the number since Android recognizes it, but it sends me to the dialer. But I want to send SMS to that another person. I try to long-tap it - doesn't work. Brings up the menu for the SMS message instead.

So I tap the number and then copy and paste that number back to the SMS app.

Use Case 2:
Someone askes me for the address of another friend. So I go into the contacts app and look up the person and view the details. Long-tap on the address - nothing. So I have to bring up the Menu to "Edit Contact", then go to the Address field, long-tap to Copy. Then go to SMS app and paste the address.

Use Case 3:
Someone using a dumbphone askes me for the address of the restaurant we are going to meet. I don't know the address either, so I load up Maps to search. So Google finds it, shows it on the map. So I click Details. Long-tap on the address. Nothing. Any options to forward the address? No.

So I copy the address into my head, then open up the SMS app, and paste it from my brain.

These 3 use cases prove how useful Copy and Paste is.


That is to say, if things are designed correctly, we have no use for C&P in most cases. Microsoft R&D is correct on that to leave it out for now.

Except in Microsoft Office. :p

[Janak Parekh]

Nope. These features simply haven't been created yet. It's important - critical in fact - to not think of Windows phone 7 as an update to Windows Mobile 6.5. The number scheme they've used confuses that fact, but Windows phone 7 is an entirely new operating system. Every feature you're seeing in Windows phone 7 has been created from what I understand; so Microsoft didn't remove copy/paste, they haven't created it yet. The same goes for multi-tasking, etc. Windows phone 7 isn't even based on the same Windows CE core as 6.5 is; it's based on Windows CE 6. This is one of the things that bothers me about Microsoft. Not only is the new OS being branded Windows Phone 7, the old one is being branded Windows Mobile Classic. This is just plain brand confusion, even more so as the developer and user experience is totally different. As is clear from this thread, the enthusiasts are having a tough enough time figuring this out -- what about regular end-users? I know the Windows brand is big, and Windows 7 even more so, but I'd rather they come up with a new name (e.g., what Zune did) to emphasize this is a reboot.

It's an entirely new operating system - a true 1.0 product - and as such, is missing things Microsoft wants to add to it later. This matter is being confused by what's being publicly stated by Microsoft in terms of what they intended for copy/paste, which is unfortunate. What you are not saying here, but what I am getting the impression of, is that the MVPs were told in the last summit that "yeah, we couldn't get around to that for this release" (which is something I remember hearing myself many, many times over the years - remember HTML email Jason, aka the Jason Dunn feature? :-D). So here's what worries me. What is there to believe that they will add these features in a timely fashion? Especially if folks from Microsoft are downplaying these features from the get-go?

Finally, I will say, I don't necessarily disagree with Microsoft's decision on this. There's a clear indicator that WP7 is targeting the average-consumer market in a big way -- something that they dropped the ball bigtime on for WM -- and based on my discussions with iPhone users, many of them don't know about cut-and-paste. Quite frankly, I don't think the omission of this feature won't matter for the retail market. However, what I'm a little worried about is Microsoft's enterprise and enthusiast strategy going forward. These are the markets that are going to miss some of the features from WM Classic, and as a result there may be a further drain of users towards RIM, Android, and Apple from that market segment -- and they were among Microsoft's strengths that may have helped bootstrap adoption of WP7. I really hope Microsoft realizes this and is targeting a long-term strategy, because I wonder how the market curve is going to play out over the next 2-3 years.

--janak

[Russ Smith]

Nope. These features simply haven't been created yet. It's important - critical in fact - to not think of Windows phone 7 as an update to Windows Mobile 6.5. The number scheme they've used confuses that fact, but Windows phone 7 is an entirely new operating system. Every feature you're seeing in Windows phone 7 has been created from what I understand; so Microsoft didn't remove copy/paste, they haven't created it yet. The same goes for multi-tasking, etc. Windows phone 7 isn't even based on the same Windows CE core as 6.5 is; it's based on Windows CE 6.

It's an entirely new operating system - a true 1.0 product - and as such, is missing things Microsoft wants to add to it later. This matter is being confused by what's being publicly stated by Microsoft in terms of what they intended for copy/paste, which is unfortunate.

I understand the vicissitudes of OS programming as well as anyone... and that's why I'm somewhat skeptical. Windows XP was a big departure from Win 3.1. Likewise, Vista was very much a do-over. The point is, though, that they didn't start from scratch. As much as they re-wrote, they kept about twice as much. WP7 is based on CE6, but CE 6 is based (at least in part) on CE 5. The clipboard is part of the kernel-level programming. Based on Microsoft's comments, it looks like they just aren't "giving developers access to" it, rather than the new OS simply lacking it. In that sense, I think you're right in using the word "yet" and I should not have used the words "took out." To be more accurate, my beef is that, after all these years of having cut-and-paste for use within Pocket Word, I won't have it on the next iteration. That just won't do. In addition to the things I mentioned earlier, I also use my WM device to do a lot of on-the-fly editing of documents.

I suppose the reality is that MS is going in a new direction to capture a wider audience. I got into PPCs and, after that, WM devices, because they were more open and flexible than the other offerings. That's still true now, but apparently won't be with WP 7. I suspect that there are more people out there who want what MS will offer than the current extensibility. I actually think that MS is making the right choice for their bottom line and for the survival of Windows Phones. I'm just not in their target audience anymore.

[Gerard]

I 'get' going for a bigger audience, that's core to the corporate mission after all. What I don't get is that they didn't just release a 'Zune Phone' device instead. For a corporation long established as being oblivious in terms of marketing their mobile devices, surely they recognized that the Zune hasn't been so dismal a failure as it could have been. The kidz like it, at least a little. So hey, make a Zune HD model with a phone in it. Toss in Xbox Live for those who like to play games on their phones. Ditch the stylus, because only nerds use a stylus. And... continue to update and sell Windows Mobile as an independent OS! I bet the extra costs involved in running two independent phone development teams would be less than the loss they're going to take through abandonment by serious WM fans. WM was already revenue-neutral according to MS earnings charts. It's never been a cash source, but averaged over the years not a money pit either.

But no. Simpler minds at MS have prevailed and what we are being offered is a simpler device. Prettier, but nowhere near as capable. Kind of like the a Barbie phone.

[Jason Dunn]

As much as they re-wrote, they kept about twice as much. WP7 is based on CE6, but CE 6 is based (at least in part) on CE 5. The clipboard is part of the kernel-level programming. Based on Microsoft's comments, it looks like they just aren't "giving developers access to" it, rather than the new OS simply lacking it.

I'm not a developer, but even with CE 6 having copy/paste/clipboard support, it has to be added to Windows phone 7 somehow, right? There's no stylus any longer, so there's no selection method like there was before - no cursor selection bar you'd drag across the text. I'm sure there's a fancy developer name for that, but I don't know what it is. :o

I'm not defending Microsoft's lack of copy and paste, but I am stating that just because Windows CE 6 supports it, doesn't mean it was a check box or two in Windows phone 7 and POOF, we have copy/paste. People need to understand Microsoft didn't WANT to take the beating they're not taking. No one wants to release something new to the public then get lambasted for not offering a core feature they knew people would want (despite what Todd Brix says).

I suppose the reality is that MS is going in a new direction to capture a wider audience...I actually think that MS is making the right choice for their bottom line and for the survival of Windows Phones. I'm just not in their target audience anymore.

Indeed, I do believe that's the reality of the situation. I mean, from a mindshare perspective, Windows Mobile was dead. DEAD. No one took it seriously to develop for any more - I'm going to post about this later hopefully, I captured a screen shot that summed up the problem perfectly. In some ways it feels like Windows Mobile hit a ceiling; all the power users out there that would be interested in it had already bought it. The growth had to come from new users, and new users didn't find Windows Mobile an attractive choice. Sure, there are lots of reasons why they didn't even get a CHANCE to see it - no advertising, phone carrier stores not showing the devices, etc. - but at the end of the day, Microsoft wants to grow their share of the mobile device market, and the Windows Mobile we have today simply wasn't doing that. :(

[efjay]

What is really staggering to me is MS seem unable to come up with ideas of their own for iWP7S, they basically copied the original iphone feature for feature, even closely mirroring what apple originally said about copy and paste. This is basically nothing more than an iphone 1.0 with a zune skin.

One can only wonder how much Mr Jobs and co are laughing our of control to see this and what they will say about iWP7S when they release the next iphone.

[Macguy59]

I'm the king of hyperbole sometimes, but really? The lack of copy/paste is enough for you to write off this whole OS? Really? How often do you use copy/paste every week? I agree that they should have added it, but in the grand scheme of everything that Windows phone 7 offers, the lack of copy and paste is a minor irritation to me at best, and likely not something I'll notice until I need it and can't use it. I'm sure I'll get irked, but come on, life is too short for this. :)

My turn :) Really ? You used "inexcusable" to describe that same omission from the iPhone when it launched.

[Russ Smith]

http://pockethacks.com/no-memory-cards-on-windows-phone-7-series/
According to the above WP7 will also lack storage card expansion and, in the prior article, lack the file manager as well. The File Manager I can live without, but, again, one of the reasons I've gone with WM in the past is the capability to expand past the built-in memory.

On cut-and-paste: C&P is implemented at the kernel level and then hooked to with the UI (at least that's what's been done in the past). As a result, developers don't really need to implement C&P but just use the standard entry fields and such. From the MS comments, I gathered that it's still there at the kernel level, but not hooked to in the UI for some reason. (Most likely [weasel-words] "stability" issues.) It looks like we're agreed here. It's probably quiet easy to implement C&P in the UI.

About the stylus: I've been cutting and pasting on my HD2 without a stylus since I got it. It's usually pretty easy, except on really tiny input boxes. I notice the menus and such have been expanded to be more finger-friendly. Maybe they could do something like expanding input boxes when the focus is on them to accommodate fingers better.

[Macguy59]

The File Manager I can live without, but, again, one of the reasons I've gone with WM in the past is the capability to expand past the built-in memory.

I'm probably out on an island on this but I think the need for a file manager and a user accessible file system in general should go the way of the dinosaurs.

[Jason Dunn]

You used "inexcusable" to describe that same omission from the iPhone when it launched.

I did? Just did a Google search, can't find that...but if you can recall exactly what I said 3+ years after a product comes out, that's pretty impressive. I can't do that.

[Macguy59]

I did? Just did a Google search, can't find that...but if you can recall exactly what I said 3+ years after a product comes out, that's pretty impressive. I can't do that.


Just call me Rain Man :p

[Jason Dunn]

It looks like we're agreed here. It's probably quiet easy to implement C&P in the UI.

Do you really believe if it was "easy", Microsoft wouldn't have done it? Come on, there's no way they'd want to be hammered like this and piss off current users. When you're designing an mobile OS for the mass market, I don't know if anything is truly "easy".

About the stylus: I've been cutting and pasting on my HD2 without a stylus since I got it. It's usually pretty easy, except on really tiny input boxes.

Again, I'm not a developer, but on the HTC isn't every touch we make on the screen just emulating a stylus? Press and hold, etc...it's all the same stuff that happens on phones with a stylus. I really don't think HTC designed a new input model for the fingers.

I really need a developer to speak up and clear this up for us, because you and I are like two blind guys trying to describe an elephant. :rolleyes:

[Jason Dunn]

Just call me Rain Man :p

OK Rain Man: if Google can't find me saying that, but your memory can, who do you think I'm going to believe? :D

Anyway, I probably did say something like that - but my understanding of the phone market and what the general public uses/thinks has certainly evolved since 2007. My opinions are rarely static - and since getting an iPod Touch I understand the Apple approach to design much better than I used to.

[Macguy59]

OK Rain Man: if Google can't find me saying that, but your memory can, who do you think I'm going to believe? :D

Anyway, I probably did say something like that - but my understanding of the phone market and what the general public uses/thinks has certainly evolved since 2007. My opinions are rarely static - and since getting an iPod Touch I understand the Apple approach to design much better than I used to.


Fair enough. My experience with the various iPhone models tells me MS is heading in the right direction for the consumer (read non techie geek) market. I'm not convinced the UI they chose will be appealing but I like the inclusive social aspect.

[Jason Dunn]

My experience with the various iPhone models tells me MS is heading in the right direction for the consumer (read non techie geek) market.

Then you and I find ourselves in the rare realm of agreement. :D

[Jason Dunn]

Not only is the new OS being branded Windows Phone 7, the old one is being branded Windows Mobile Classic.

I did some searching, and I can't find anywhere that says Microsoft is branding Windows Mobile 6.5 as "Windows Mobile Classic". Where did you see Microsoft say this?

So here's what worries me. What is there to believe that they will add these features in a timely fashion? Especially if folks from Microsoft are downplaying these features from the get-go?

Here's the thing: Todd Brix is saying one thing to the press, and every other Microsoft person I spoke to at the Summit (which didn't include Todd Brix) was in 100% agreement that not having copy and paste was hugely sucky. What gets said to the press isn't always the reality of the situation.

[Cattle-Dog]

Looks to me like it is all there but the GUI menu's to support it. Almost seems to me they are intentionally holding it back at this point. I don't get it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnrwE3_OuCE&feature=player_embedded

[Jason Dunn]

Well, at least it's an entirely new operating system shell. Kind of hard to argue it's an entirely new OS when it's based on Windows CE 6.0 (which I believe does support a clipboard at the Win32 API level).

OK, you got me there. You're right, it's not a new OS down to the guts - but all of the UI shell they built upon the CE 6 kernel...it's all brand new. I bet you for every one thing they decided to re-create in the new shell, they threw out three other things. That's what everyone is so mad about today. :o

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

I did some searching, and I can't find anywhere that says Microsoft is branding Windows Mobile 6.5 as "Windows Mobile Classic". Where did you see Microsoft say this?
That'd be Windows Phone Classic.

[Jason Dunn]

That'd be Windows Phone Classic.

Are you referring to this?

http://www.istartedsomething.com/20100216/windows-phones-7-series-classic-co-exist/

That seems to be a rumour as far as I'm concerned (I can tell you it's not part of the official Microsoft language I use in my articles for them yet), though it wouldn't surprise me if they went that route. But if that article is accurate, that change won't happen until the holiday season of this year, so why complain about something that hasn't happened yet? :confused:

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

Hey, I'm not complaining about that. Just about all the other nerfs.*:D

[Jason Dunn]

Looks to me like it is all there but the GUI menu's to support it. Almost seems to me they are intentionally holding it back at this point. I don't get it...

I think that's exactly it - there's no GUI for it. If the core function of copy/paste is there in the CE 6 kernel, what's left is to build a GUI for it, and build a tap-and-hold style element into the OS. They'd also need to build a GUI text/object selection function, etc.

Some people are wearing their tin-foil hats and thinking this is being held back for some nefarious reason, but the obvious answer is usually the right one: they didn't have the resources to include everything they wanted, and they had to cut some things. :(

[Russ Smith]

Do you really believe if it was "easy", Microsoft wouldn't have done it? Come on, there's no way they'd want to be hammered like this and piss off current users. When you're designing an mobile OS for the mass market, I don't know if anything is truly "easy".

Again, I'm not a developer, but on the HTC isn't every touch we make on the screen just emulating a stylus? Press and hold, etc...it's all the same stuff that happens on phones with a stylus. I really don't think HTC designed a new input model for the fingers.

I really need a developer to speak up and clear this up for us, because you and I are like two blind guys trying to describe an elephant. :rolleyes:

Well, it might be easy to turn the feature on, but not that easy to deal with all the consequences of doing so. There are repercussions. For instance, if you paste something into a window, you have to move text and graphics and re-draw. I wish MS had taken the time to work those repercussions out and implement C&P though.

If it were easy, wouldn't they have done it? Maybe. Think about how many tiny apps are out there that allow you to truly shut down applications. You'd have to check with the folks that wrote them, but the shear number of them leads me to believe it wasn't that hard. MS chose not to do it for other reasons than difficulty.

I'd agree that HTC didn't completely redesign for finger input. They did fix the scroll bars to expand when you touch them as well as a change few other UI aspects that make the whole more finger-friendly. I guess you could say that the touch screen is emulating a stylus, just as you could say the stylus is emulating a mouse (except when you use the multi-touch.) I don't know that it matters, as long as it works.

[Rob Alexander]

I can't give you names, but at the MVP Summit I spoke at length with several Windows phone PM's who were absolutely not defending the lack of copy/paste in any way. They did tell us about the "smart linking" feature, but as a "OK, we know it's bad to not have copy/paste right out of the gate, but here's something that makes it slightly less bad" kind of way. Perhaps they were just placating a room full of ticked off MVPs who knew the various communities they represented were not going to be happy about this omission, but I didn't get the sense I was being lied to. I really do believe the Windows phone team knows how completely idiotic it is for them to not have copy/paste.

Okay, even if we didn't have the followup report that pretty much negates this debate, I would take this at face value. If it had come down to my suggesting that they were actually lying directly to you, then I wouldn't have gone that far and would see where you were coming from. (Sorry, I'm so late back into the discussion, but I haven't been online all day. I'll move any other comments to the newer thread.)

[buckyg]

Jason, thanks for your earlier response, in regards to updates. It's nice to hear that the current update model should be history.

It's a frustrating time for folks who currently use Windows Mobile. So much we don't know in detail or need to see for real. Seems like just about every announcement brings out either "love it" or "hate it". Perhaps in reality, when we can see it, it won't be as big a deal as we think, or maybe better/worse. We shall see...

Thanks for telling us what you are able to and for the place to discuss/rant!

[alese]

I think that's exactly it - there's no GUI for it. If the core function of copy/paste is there in the CE 6 kernel, what's left is to build a GUI for it, and build a tap-and-hold style element into the OS. They'd also need to build a GUI text/object selection function, etc.

Some people are wearing their tin-foil hats and thinking this is being held back for some nefarious reason, but the obvious answer is usually the right one: they didn't have the resources to include everything they wanted, and they had to cut some things. :(

You are probably right Jason, but I was thinking that maybe the reason is not lack of resources per se that they didn't implement copy/paste. After all they have the feature in the OS, and the APIs and since they copied pretty much everything else from iPhone they also have a "sollution" on how the feature should/could be done in touch UI on capacitive screen.
But, I'm pretty sure Apple patented the way they are doing it, so Microsoft has to come up with something different enough not to be sued afterwards that would still work within their UI.
'm guessing, that not the actual programming is the problem.
Of course that's total speculation, but I just don't believe that it would be that difficult to implement the feature technically.

[Jason Dunn]

So much we don't know in detail or need to see for real. Seems like just about every announcement brings out either "love it" or "hate it". Perhaps in reality, when we can see it, it won't be as big a deal as we think, or maybe better/worse. We shall see...

Indeed. I think the final shipping product will be less of a disaster than some people think it is, and though it comes with some limits and compromises, there's a lot of truly fantastic stuff about it - I think it will be a great phone to use based on what I've seen so far.

Thanks for telling us what you are able to and for the place to discuss/rant!

You bet! It's a shame that it's only the "bad news" posts tend to get comments - I wish more people comment on the other stories we post. :D

[Jason Dunn]

Of course that's total speculation, but I just don't believe that it would be that difficult to implement the feature technically.

I've been dealing with Microsoft for years, and you'd be shocked - SHOCKED - at how long and how much work it takes to implement something that seems really simple on the surface. A big part of that is testing - although now that there's only one device hardware spec, testing for Microsoft has gotten waaaaaay easier. Imagine having to test the same feature on everything from 240 x 240 up to 800 x 480, with every resolution in between, on both touch and non-touch platforms. Total nightmare! :eek:

[JonnoB]

I seem to recall before details of WP7 surfaced that this was initially going to be a consumer based reboot and that an enterprise solution was going to come sometime afterward. If this is the case, it could be a matter of many of the features lacking for us will come in another iteration. if we were told this by the marketing machine at Microsoft, I think they could save some face amongst the early adopter and evangelist community.

For example, on the multitasking front, they could admit (as they have done) that this is a multi-tasking OS and that most apps do not need it. Some apps such as audio players may be given an examption and permission from Microsoft to run a background thread and because Microsoft wanted to ensure the quality experience, this would be a rarely given permission and tightly controlled (read - most apps won't get access to run in the background).

As for copy and paste, they could say that it is not as necessary for the casual consumer who is more interested in their social surroundings and that consumers will appreciate the simplicity and rich social experience. While the OS will support enterprise users, a release that has more tech friendly enterprise functionality such as remote desktop support, copy/paste, and other features will be made available in another release to be available sometime in 2011.

if the above were said, I think the loyal evagelist community would be satisfied. As it is, Microsoft is betting that they don't need us (evangelical loyalists) to be happy about this relaunch and that it is net new customers they hope to bring in with the flashy UI and Xbox gaming that do not need traditional PDA functionality is more than enough to make up for our lack of excitement.

[Richard76]

Someone should tell the boys over in Redmond that when the masses were screaming that the WM platform should go back to square 1, this is really not what we meant. The more this WPS7 story unfolds, the more I am being alienated from MS Mobile. At this point there is nothing in WPS7 that is compelling me to even try it. I guess I will just hang tight with WM6.5 and see what WPS8 brings.

[paschott]

I am, much to my near boiling-over frustration :mad:, being hampered by Microsoft PR right now - I want to answer your question in great detail, but my NDA prevents it, even though Microsoft has made some short public statements about device updates. What I will say is that the model of Microsoft > OEM > Carrier > You is the past. Windows phone 7 is the future, and in this aspect, the future is very, very good indeed. I'll say more when I can. :(

This at least gives me some hope. I've owned 3 devices now that were quite capable of at least one upgrade, but I couldn't get it through any normal channel unless you count XDA as normal. I understand that MS didn't have the control at the time to force a true upgradeable OS on the phone, but am really, really glad to hear that the model is changing. Hopefully it's going to be more like "Microsoft > You" and not leave anyone in the middle for OS upgrades.

[maxnix]

No storage slot, no stylus no cut/copy & paste, no file system, no 3rd party multitasking.

What we have is a pretty dead body in full make up.

Are we sure Google or Apple isn't really fomenting this "update"?

I have been a WM user since Stinger, but I won't be any longer after Android surpasses my WM6.5 phone.

Good job, Mirosoft!

One slim chance remains that none of these phones will be 4G phones. If MS doesn't realize by the time that 4G pns are released we would have bought an Apple iPhone at its introduction if we wanted a crippled toy phone, then they will have lost the entire enterprise to Android.

[Deslock]

An overhaul of Windows Mobile has been overdue for sometime, as has been discussed before (http://forums.thoughtsmedia.com/f416/does-windows-mobile-still-have-market-left-94407.html):
the iPhone's most significant feature from beginning was one seldom mentioned: the capacitance touchscreen. Without it, Apple couldn't have implemented such an effective interface. It was clear two years ago that Microsoft would need to completely overhaul WinMo and ditch the resistive screen to compete in the consumer market, and with the introduction of Android and WebOS, that's even more obvious. I suspect that Microsoft will fix the interface (perhaps providing some sort of legacy support via a capacitance stylus while switching to a finger-centric approach), though I'm not sure how some of WinMo's other issues will be addressed (such as the current PITA processes for installing apps and restoring from backup).

But much about this is surprising:
No storage card expansion slot
No app distribution outside of official store
No copy/paste at launch!
Limited multitasking!
No backwards compatibility for existing apps!
Microsoft's app approval process will certainly be less annoying than Apple's and copy/paste will likely be added later. But I expected them to support old apps in some fashion and though an app store was a no-brainer, I figured they'd come up with a way to still allow for CABs.

As is, WM7 is bad news for WinMo fans (who aren't just Microsoft enthusiasts). There's no question that it'll be a big turn-around for Microsoft's floundering mobile OS (and the nifty new GUI will scale up nicely... look for WM7 tablets in 2011), but the lack of backwards compatibility is a slap in the face to existing users.

It must be particularly frustrating for some here given that when the iPhone first came out, many lambasted it as lacking common features, being all fluff and marketing hype, and offering nothing new. However, the large capacitance touchscreen, multitouch, finger-input GUI, smooth media playback, tight app integration, and almost-desktop class browser (all crammed into such a small, lightweight device) set it apart from Symbian, Palm, and WinMo phones. And now Microsoft (along with Google and Palm) has incorporated those features.

But surely they could've accommodated existing users somehow. Other than XBox integration and Netflix playback, is there any reason for WinMo users to go to WM7 rather than switch to the more open and customizable Android?

[Jason Dunn]

But surely they could've accommodated existing users somehow. Other than XBox integration and Netflix playback, is there any reason for WinMo users to go to WM7 rather than switch to the more open and customizable Android?

It all depends on what those users want. If the user wants a highly-customizable smartphone, then maybe Android is the best platform for them.

Myself, I value stability, speed, and great functionality more than being able to customize the phone. Over the years I've changed from being a "install 50 apps on my phone and hack the registry" type user to user who installs very few apps - I typically run my Windows Mobile phones nearly stock.

Why? Stability and speed. I just got so sick and tired of third-party apps junking up my phone, slowing it down, etc. So, personally, I'm willing to lose some of that stuff in Windows 6.x that I wasn't using anyway in order to get a phone that I can download a bunch of apps onto and know that it's not going to de-stabilize my phone. My iPod Touch for instance is just as fast today as a year ago, and I've got probably 30 apps installed onto it. To me, that really matters.

[Janak Parekh]

Myself, I value stability, speed, and great functionality more than being able to customize the phone. Over the years I've changed from being a "install 50 apps on my phone and hack the registry" type user to user who installs very few apps - I typically run my Windows Mobile phones nearly stock. Right, but apart from those that are in a particular ecosystem, what is there to convince people to adopt WP7 over iPhone or Palm or ...?

I suppose we'll have to wait and see what the UI differentiating factors are, since many of the technical differentiators are gone. ;)

--janak

[doogald]

The other thing is that all of the phones that can be customized and crammed with apps can also be run quite well (if not better) running stock.

Though, that said, that is an interesting marketing approach. Yes, we have no apps, but that's because the phone is so good without 'em! Palm should consider that... (too late...)

[Phillip Dyson]

Right, but apart from those that are in a particular ecosystem, what is there to convince people to adopt WP7 over iPhone or Palm or ...?

I suppose we'll have to wait and see what the UI differentiating factors are, since many of the technical differentiators are gone. ;)

--janak

I don't think MS is banking on Metro to differentiate them. This is all about Xbox, and to a lesser degree Zune. Those are what they're expecting to draw people in. Those are the only things that are potentially game changers.

Okay, maybe not Zune, but certainly Xbox.

[Jason Dunn]

Yes, we have no apps, but that's because the phone is so good without 'em! Palm should consider that... (too late...)

Oh come now, there were lots of interesting and compelling apps shown at MIX10. By the time the phones ship, I think we'll see a healthy number of apps.

[whydidnt]

Oh come now, there were lots of interesting and compelling apps shown at MIX10. By the time the phones ship, I think we'll see a healthy number of apps.
I have no doubt you are correct. However, the number of quality apps will be significantly less that what is available on the iPhone. I would have thought rather than completely duplicating Apple's OS, flaws and all, that they would have decided to take the best features available. Since they aren't going to provide much difference in the feature set, what is the "hook" to get people to switch? It's essentially an iPhone with access to some XBox games. Why would someone switch? Yes there are a significant number of people that don't have smart phones today. However, it's quite likely those people either don't want one, or if they do, will follow the herd and select Apple.

So, what we have is a near feature for feature device, except MS will probably offer about 100,000 fewer apps at launch. Why would someone select MS in this situation? If MS had any clue about the mobile space (and the last 5-7 years seem to indicate otherwise) they would have taken the "good stuff" Apple has done and built upon that. How about an ad that shows True Multi-tasking, taking a phone call without closing your GPS App, copying pictures from your camera's memory card to the phone, etc. In order to win hearts and minds MS has to deliver MORE than what is already available and these artificial limitations MS has put in place simply makes that unlikely.

It seems like the execs at Microsoft simply purchased and iPhone and set out copy it feature for feature - and then laid a pretty UI on top of it.

[Gerard]

Speaking of true multi-tasking, whatever happened to the idea of using Seymore? Anyone else remember that? With a high resolution screen and true multi-tasking, a smart split-screen system with an included AltTab-like function (perhaps mapped to a button... but then again, with only 3 measly buttons in the new hardware spec I don't imagine there will be much room for button mapping in ANY application) can vastly increase the utility of the device. Say you keep your Calendar window open on half the screen, and whatever documents or other information open on the other, while in a call using a headset. It doesn't get a whole lot more 'mobile office' than that, yet it's really amazingly simple to use.

Ah, but people who want 'smart' phones understand the 'smart' to mean ooh, it plays dumbed-down versions of Xbox nonsense! ME WANT! What's that you say? It updates me every second of every day, right there on my 'desktop', with the latest baby pictures/drunk partying pictures my friends just took and uploaded to Facebook? THAT'S JUST TOO FRICKIN' UNBELIEVABLY COOLISCIOUS! ME WANT MORE! No, seriously, me want more. And less. Me want no Xbox, Zbox, WhateverBox. It's not relevant in my working life, thanks. Same for the time-nibbling nonsense of 'social networking' which fad will wash away like so much embarrassing teenaged nonsense in the next few years.

[Jason Dunn]

Why would someone select MS in this situation? If MS had any clue about the mobile space (and the last 5-7 years seem to indicate otherwise) they would have taken the "good stuff" Apple has done and built upon that.

Most people buy phones at carrier stores when their contract is up and they can get a new phone for cheap. They go into the store, they pick up the phones, and they buy based on colour, shape, design, cool factor, and price. Shocking though it may be to people in this forum, people do not generally go into a store and ask if a phone can multi-task, copy and paste, or if it has a file system.

How about an ad that shows True Multi-tasking, taking a phone call without closing your GPS App, copying pictures from your camera's memory card to the phone, etc.

Multi-tasking is overrated on a mobile phone. On a desktop PC/laptop, with a big screen, running multiple applications is a natural scenario. On a device with a tiny screen, when you only have one app on the screen at the same time, what matters most is being able to move from one application to another, making progress towards a goal as you go. In that vein, application state restoration makes or breaks a mobile OS - and if Microsoft nails it, that will deliver what people need.

[whydidnt]

Most people buy phones at carrier stores when their contract is up and they can get a new phone for cheap. They go into the store, they pick up the phones, and they buy based on colour, shape, design, cool factor, and price. Shocking though it may be to people in this forum, people do not generally go into a store and ask if a phone can multi-task, copy and paste, or if it has a file system.
That's my point. Microsoft needs to do SOMETHING to differentiate themselves. They aren't going to be able to offer these for less that what Apple already sells the iPhone. Why would a consumer in the situation you mention select Microsoft over the iPhone? The consumers you mention will join the herd and pick an iPhone, especially when you consider the quantity of applications and the mind share Apple has already won.


Multi-tasking is overrated on a mobile phone. On a desktop PC/laptop, with a big screen, running multiple applications is a natural scenario. On a device with a tiny screen, when you only have one app on the screen at the same time, what matters most is being able to move from one application to another, making progress towards a goal as you go. In that vein, application state restoration makes or breaks a mobile OS - and if Microsoft nails it, that will deliver what people need.

Just because you, Palm (in a past life) and Apple keep saying it doesn't make it true. The fact is consumers want to stream music from third party apps, utilize their GPS, etc. WITHOUT those apps closing when they have to answer their phone, or go to surf the web etc. These are very real scenarios. I actually missed an exit in Los Angeles last week because I received a phone call, and my GPS application closed on the iPhone. (I hadn't exited the app to activate it as background via jailbreak, so it closed and wasn't going to mess with the screen while driving). Sure it opened again when the call was done, but by the time the app reloaded into memory, acquired satellites, etc. it was too late. Now I can deal with this issue, but I don't want to, and if this happened to a less techy person such as my wife, she would quit using the device since she can't count on it when she needs it.

For years we have been asking Microsoft to make the X button close applications, but they said we shouldn't have to do that, the OS should be smart enough to close applications on it's own when memory got low... and for years we dealt with unstable systems that ran out of memory because the OS didn't manage it properly. Now we are to believe that those same engineers have figured out the "secret sauce" that will enable them to nail background states? Sorry, I can't give them that much credit on blind faith. I don't think the US consumers are going to either.

Again, I ask, what compelling reason will someone have to buy a new WM phone over the iPhone? What is it offering that someone can't get from the entrenched leader in the market? Other than it not being Apple, I'm not sure what that is.

[Jason Dunn]

That's my point. Microsoft needs to do SOMETHING to differentiate themselves. They aren't going to be able to offer these for less that what Apple already sells the iPhone. Why would a consumer in the situation you mention select Microsoft over the iPhone?

Apple has a powerful position in the marketplace, yes, but it's not insurmountable. iPhones come in a single form-factor - no keyboard. They come in two colours: black and white. They require iTunes to work. I agree that the companies making Windows phones will have to work hard to make their phones stand out.

But you seem convinced Windows phone 7 is doomed to failure, so nothing I say will change your mind. Myself, I'm keeping an open mind and will watch and see what happens in the market. :)

I actually missed an exit in Los Angeles last week because I received a phone call, and my GPS application closed on the iPhone. (I hadn't exited the app to activate it as background via jailbreak, so it closed and wasn't going to mess with the screen while driving). Sure it opened again when the call was done, but by the time the app reloaded into memory, acquired satellites, etc. it was too late.

Yikes, that would suck. GPS seems to be the one stand-out scenario where multi-tasking is critical. For what it's worth, I've heard that the GPS app on Windows phone 7 will keep running if a phone call comes in. Ultimately we'll have to see how it works when the phones ship...

[Jason Dunn]

Same for the time-nibbling nonsense of 'social networking' which fad will wash away like so much embarrassing teenaged nonsense in the next few years.

And I bet you want those rowdy kids to get off your lawn, right? :D

I'm sure someone 20 years older than you said the same thing about SMS messages. Anything based around one human communicating with another isn't a "fad" - it's a new channel of communications that people will embrace. Not all people - my mom and dad don't text - but I don't think you'd argue that text messaging hasn't been a transformative method of communication.

Similarly, social networking as a whole has had an equally profound effect on how we communicate with each other. Not everyone uses every service - personally, I think 4square is pretty stupid - but Facebook is a very useful way for me to keep in touch with people I care about, see their pictures and videos, and communicate with them.

It's fine that you don't use social networking services, but to condemn them all as being useless when hundreds of millions of people around the world are using them is pretty silly. :)

[Gerard]

I'm not just yelling at the kids on the lawn Jason. I'm talking about my direct experience with a lot of people over the past few years as they have a) insisted that I join a social network so I can stay in the loop with their gigs, events, whatever, then b) deluged me with notifications over some months or a year or two, then c) slowed announcements of such kinds to a mere trickle, then d) either stopped updating their Blogger/Twitter/Myspace/Facebook/Whatever thingy ever, or slowed updates to something resembling sleep. I've cooperated with dozens upon dozens of clients, and maybe three friends (most of my friends aren't into that sort of thing), and have memberships in loads of such sites. My aim in joining? To get them off my back, as my early sampling of such things indicated that the depth of communication to be found was somewhat, shall we say, insubstantial.

I've seen only a very few blogs actually maintain a sense of intellectual rigour. Most are deserving of no better than the 'tweet' designation. Oh sure, life is about more than significant discussion. But these things seem actively to defy significance, to crush it with the sheer lollipopness of it all. And 400 million monkeys hamming on keyboards (or thumb boards) will NOT generate a work of Shakespeare. All that digital output seems focused on nothing else so much as the decimation of human intelligence, the reduction to one common denominator where 'hey, who's doing something cool tonight? can I go? what's the right thing to wear?' is the standard.

I looked at most of your pictures from that last conference, Jason. It struck me that most of the pictures and comments you posted had nothing to do with the conference. Rather, your focus was on the socializing, the meals, the rooms, and the walk to and from the Best Buy. Now that's fine. But it's more and more the sort of thing I'm seeing with social networks. It's a kind of sweeping degeneration into irrelevancy. Journalists and enthusiasts alike seem by and large to be prepared not to criticize nor ask pertinent and sometimes tough questions, but rather to stand at the end of a big corporate pipe and receive whatever comes flying out the end of it.

And when that effluent is great, then wonderful, we all get nice tech. But when it's junk, as with most of this new OS and three-button device spec (come on, who really wants a 'Bing' button?!), and the journalists and enthusiasts report it as being 'what the public wants', well, I just have to say it confirms the trend I've been watching for years. Gartner is finally winning. The fool so-called analysts who for years tried to tell everybody that multi-tasking wasn't necessary because hey, Palm doesn't think so, are finally right. And we don't really need copy, cut, paste. To my mind something like the addition of a 'paste special' was overdue. Boy was I wrong. Nope, I guess if one drinks the modern koolaid then those functions are for guys who think too much, try too hard. A phone is just a... no wait, it's not just a phone. Okay, a phone is a gaming system, where you can share your game credits and status via tweet... oh wait, no you can't. I mean, since you'd have to exit the game to do that, and multi-tasking won't work... you'll get fragged if you're playing a networked game and jump out to pass a note to a pal. You see, even with the limited palette they're trying to shove down our throats they STILL fail. But what am I talking about, I'm no gamer. Gamers are the important phone users right? And they probably only care that they have the latest, coolest hardware so other gamers will be impressed when they accidently bump into eachother while walking down the street, um, gaming, you know, on their freekin' phones.

Come ON! Does anyone remember Casio? A simple cursorpad-left, three button layout-right setup. It kicked some serious (expletive) as a gaming machine in its day. An E-125 remains the most serious foot in the door for PDA-based gaming, though processor limitations kept it from lasting too many years. The supply of games was huge back then, and they were a diverse lot. I remember my E-115 even came with a rather nice game of golf and a few other gems, lots of fun for a kid to try on my old Casio. I didn't waste a lot of time on most games, but did enjoy a few, and even went right through the original DOOM on on my EG-800. Worked pretty much flawlessly.

As for communications, I recall being able to connect to just about any chat service around using a host of clients on various Pocket PCs. I was having video chats via Microsoft Portrait on an iPAQ 3835 with a dual-slot CF sleeve, a CF camera in one slot and a wireless card in the other, 7 years ago. Pocket IE used to be something we could actually use, especially happily when enhanced with MultiIE or other plugins. I remember a Flash-based chat room set up by a software developer for his testers, back in 2002. Worked perfectly in Pocket IE with a dozen or more testers in a chat, text appearing in realtime, allowing very rapid testing and reporting progress all on-device.

So don't try to tell me that it's suddenly necessary for gaming and social networking to be the core of a device, at the cost of pretty much everything else working the way a pocket computer should work. IE since WM2003SE has steadily degenerated to the point where the first thing I now do in setting up a phone is delete the shortcut and change the associations to NetFront. The whole cheap emulation of the iPhone's browser zooming is just death to comfortable browsing of most pages. The email/text messaging client has certainly improved, and I applaud Microsoft for that. But now they're dumping it. The filesystem access meant users could actually transfer the comfortable folder metaphor over to their phones, no learning curve, just teach the tap&hold thing once and they're moving pictures around and stashing receipts away in nested folders like old pros in no time. But that's too un-iPhone-like, can't have that. It must be wrong since Apple doesn't do it. Toss that too then.

And using a tablet type device, nice big screen with great resolution, for graphics input at anything better than a finger-painting level, that's not necessary either... because the iPhone doesn't use a stylus, the iPhone is somehow still hip, and so the stylus must go. Forget retouching pictures on the phone. The phone's for taking pictures and sharing them on Flickr, nothing else, right? Users don't need things if the iPhone doesn't provide them.

Seems to me the final word on this chapter has already been uttered by Microsoft's developers and decision makers. And that word is baaaaaaaaah. Or however one spells what a sheep says when following other sheep.

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

whydidnt, I don't know about you, but a 800x480 screen is a simple but significant difference. After I sent in my now-lost HD2 for repairs, I fell back to my wonky iPod touch for MP3s. Let's say I actually found it painful to use because of the screen. 3.5" is just tiny compared to the HD2's 4.3". Just an example of how MS can still make a difference. And that's just one example!

I know everyone's disappointed (so am I, actually) but to rail that it'll be absolute PHAIL from the start is just shortsighted. Kinda like how many where were laughing it up initially when the iPhone was announced.

Gerard: You do sound like those old men screaming at kids to get off their lawn though.

Look, social networks are handy. While it might sound terrible, it is a good way to keep an eye out on what people you know are up to, without the need to go into detailed conversation. In a way, it's like a RSS feed for your social life. It summarises and compacts time needed for socialising. It also helps you to prioritise your social obligations.

Now, just because some people can't keep their social network groups and blogs active or with interesting content, doesn't mean you should diss them. Failure to use technology properly is down to the users themselves.

I also think it's unfair you're railing on Jason on the content he puts up for the conferences he attends. I am certain much of it is under NDA. If he could share them with us he would.

As for MS copying Apple, well, I feel it's with good reason. All those iPhones sales show that there is a demand for that certain mix of software and hardware. Plus it's not like MS copied the UI wholesale. And yes, gaming is important, if downloads are anything to go by. Not like I play games on the phone myself (expensive desktop is expensive for a reason).

You sound like those who'd be content with the PPCs of 2003/2004. I'm not. Like Jason, I'm no longer fond of installing 50 apps and spending time tweaking the damn phone. While I don't mind some optimising, nowadays if I can't get the phone to work the way I want within 1-2 hours of buying it, I go trade it in. Life is too short to spend messing about with something that is meant to make your life easier.

As for all the things you mention as "the good ol' days"; they weren't. Come on, PIE has always been crap. It's just that the advances in web technologies have just made it look even worse in double quick time. I'm not keen to return to the sluggishness of the old devices when you work them hard (the HD2 is the only WinMo machine I've used that was mostly lag-free). Neither am I fond of the esoteric workarounds you had to do to get basic things working. Broken alarms anyone? The W?BIC factor might have been high with the old stuff, especially in a time when most didn't know about PDAs and all that, but really, they just weren't usable for the majority in day-to-day use.

I'm sure there'll be many other things that both of us are going to disagree upon (like stylus-based input; those things should just die already), but I'm certain that the changes MS make are mostly for the better, even if a bit overzealous in its pursuit of simplification.

Many here have said that MS should start over and freshen up PPC/Windows Mobile. This is what starting over from scratch is all about. Some people are just hard to please.

[Gerard]

Ditching the stylus is pretty much akin to ditching the pen. I don't see the ink-filled pen dying out any time soon. Why should I be deprived of precision input simply because kids (on my lawn or not) can't be bothered with anything but text messaging? Again, dumb phones do that really, really well. I've seen my daughter carry on conversations with several friends via SMS on her cheapo Motorola lots of times, and in 5 to 10 minutes with a dozen or more messages they've got their plans for the day sorted. Saves a tonne on phone charges and keeps everything very tidy and short. It doesn't need to cost more than $100 to do that, and do it better and faster than a $600 WP7S device will do it with 10 times the processing power and 1/4 the battery life. AND, the screen won't shatter when it's put in a back pocket, unlike the big, expensive version with the 4.3" screen. And kids watching videos on their phones? I haven't actually witnessed one instance of that, and with a 16 year old in the house, believe me, I see a lot of teenagers. To this 'market' video is on a notebook screen, period. Same for gaming.

So who is the target here? Businessmen? Nah. They want a business-oriented device, something that'll get the job done and offer some entertainment on the side. Grumpy old men who yell at the kids on the lawn? (For the record, I've always hated the concept of the lawn, and when I see kids playing on them I'm happy, because they're happy. My own lawn is mostly moss, and the best bit is the garden dug out of the middle of it.) Nope. The grumpy old man camp wants better, more, faster, stronger, with every more connectivity and expansion potential. That's the direction WM was headed for a while, at least until microSD slots took over and USB hosting totally died for mysterious reasons. It must be those between about 20 and 35 then, that famous upwardly-mobile market segment who buy just about everything. But they're all buying iPhones.

And seriously, Microsoft is going to out-cool Apple? Nice try. I mean sure, they might convince a small segment of that populace to move over, but it's going to be like trying to sell Tab or Orange Crush to Coke drinkers. The ingredients may be close to identical, the sugar rush just the same, but there's a reason the iPhone sells better all the time. They nailed the marketing. Microsoft doesn't know diddly squat about marketing phones and PDAs, that's well established. Will it change? Fall of 2010 will show us. Someone, please, point me to somewhere I can put $5 at 1000:1 odds against Microsoft coming up with ANY popular ad material. The best thing I've ever seen them film was a series of Ricky Gervais spots, aimed at internal employees. Big brains at work there, taking a then-cutting edge face and voice and sticking it behind the scenes where it can do precisely nothing to sell product.

[whydidnt]

whydidnt, I don't know about you, but a 800x480 screen is a simple but significant difference. After I sent in my now-lost HD2 for repairs, I fell back to my wonky iPod touch for MP3s. Let's say I actually found it painful to use because of the screen. 3.5" is just tiny compared to the HD2's 4.3". Just an example of how MS can still make a difference. And that's just one example!

I agree that a larger, higher resolution screen can make a huge difference. Unfortunately, people that care about things are also typically power users, like me that want more. Do you think the average consumer Jason mentions and Microsoft is supposedly targeting cares if the screen is a higher resolution? Do they even know what resolution it is. People buy benefits not features. Do you think Microsoft will ever run an ad showing how much better an email or web page looks on the higher res screen? I don't.

Yes, we all laughed at Apple upon their first release of the iPhone and for the most part non-power user/non smartphone users purchased it. However, Apple had a couple things going for it, even with the iPhones limits - It had a HUGE user base already using iTunes and an iPod; They were the first to introduce a simple touch friendly UI and capacitive screen. They were the first to truly deliver a good mobile browsing experience. They also recognized and addressed many of the system limitations in subsequent releases that were readily available to all phone users.

Now, let's compare to WP7S - No user lock in for media. By all accounts Zune is a good player, but it has not won significant market share. The UI is new, but is really any better? Is it really different, or do we just have larger icons? Is Microsoft doing anything to deliver a better browsing experience, or are they just trying to get people to use Bing instead of Google? Is Microsoft willing to admit there are deficiencies and make improvements to the OS over time AND deliver those to the user base in a consistent manner. Based upon the past, I have my doubts. Will HTC want to continue to provide updates on a 2 year old phone when they are trying to push WPS7.5 models out the door? Who will support HTC's devices? With an iPhone you know Apple supports them, how about a WP7S. These are things that work against Microsoft's success, and reasons why I think it was critical for Microsoft to deliver more than what is already out there, not just match features, or deliver even less.

Microsoft has a huge uphill climb, and they just aren't showing enough to indicate they are really willing to make that climb. They could have addressed a significant portion of the current OS limitations by doing the following: New strict hardware requirements with only 1 or 2 supported resolutions, processors, high volumes of Flash Memory, etc. ; Zune integration for media management/syncing; Full support for a true Touch interface and Capacitive touch screens - Sorry Gerard, the market has spoken and people want to touch their screens with their fingers not poke at them with a stylus. Instead they seem to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater and removed much of their previous advantage. Am I 100% sure they will fail, of course not. There is plenty to like in the OS, but if they don't do SOMETHING to make the experience better than what is out in the market, I think that in a couple of years we'll be talking about yet another reboot of their mobile strategy.

[Jason Dunn]

I looked at most of your pictures from that last conference, Jason. It struck me that most of the pictures and comments you posted had nothing to do with the conference. Rather, your focus was on the socializing, the meals, the rooms, and the walk to and from the Best Buy. Now that's fine. But it's more and more the sort of thing I'm seeing with social networks. It's a kind of sweeping degeneration into irrelevancy. Journalists and enthusiasts alike seem by and large to be prepared not to criticize nor ask pertinent and sometimes tough questions, but rather to stand at the end of a big corporate pipe and receive whatever comes flying out the end of it.

I'm not sure why you chose to call me out on this in a public forum :confused: , but it seems I have to respond publicly to correct your ignorance: I realize you're a new MVP and have never attended an MVP Summit before, but do you recall signing that Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA)? Guess what was discussed at the MVP Summit? NDA stuff.

Now why would you think for a second that, number one, I'd be stupid enough to try to take pictures of NDA sessions - and they were ALL NDA SESSIONS - or, number two, that even if I had pictures of what happened in those sessions, I'd publish them where the general public could see them. What's left to take pictures of? The social side of the summit. I posted those pictures for my friend MVPs who were there, and for my friend MVPs who couldn't make it to the summit. That you perceive it as vapid, useless sharing speaks volumes about you as a person and what you value.

You're just too much Gerard - seriously. That I'm even having to post this message to somehow defend a bunch of pictures I chose to share is utterly ridiculous. I'm not even going to dignify your insults at the end of that paragraph with a response.

[Jason Dunn]

I agree that a larger, higher resolution screen can make a huge difference. Unfortunately, people that care about things are also typically power users, like me that want more. Do you think the average consumer Jason mentions and Microsoft is supposedly targeting cares if the screen is a higher resolution? Do they even know what resolution it is. People buy benefits not features.

100% agreed. Most people don't know what resolution means, let alone the benefits. But a big, gorgeous screen on a device speaks for itself - and so does great hardware design. I can tell you that 100% of the people I've handed my HTC HD2 to have all expressed some variation of "Wow", "Cool", or "Holy crap does this make my iPhone look bad in comparison." If those big, beautiful screens are in the stores where people can see them in action, they'll sell themselves. They don't need to mention resolution or screen size - people can see the benefits right away.

[Gerard]

My apologies Jason. I got off on a wrong track.

It seems obvious though that you are committed to loving whatever Microsoft decides to do with their mobile devices, and that this is, by your autobiographical commentary in these recent threads, a major shift for you from the way you viewed both Microsoft's OS developments and your own use of these devices when compared to just a few years back. That you are so blatantly defensive of their wholesale dismissal of the multi-faceted investments of their user base of the past decade seems counter to what I and many others had in earlier times viewed as your role; namely an advocate for users.

In that light, I'll just do what I have done on a couple of other occasions in the past, for very different reasons. I'll withdraw from further comment on these developments, as my comments are neither wanted nor apparently relevant in the face of this new toy taking over from serious equipment.

[Jason Dunn]

It seems obvious though that you are committed to loving whatever Microsoft decides to do with their mobile devices, and that this is, by your autobiographical commentary in these recent threads, a major shift for you from the way you viewed both Microsoft's OS developments and your own use of these devices when compared to just a few years back.

The world has evolved Gerard; going back 6-8 years, smartphones were a novelty. They were a curious beast - sticking a phone into a PDA. Remember all the discussions in these very forums about one-device versus two-device scenarios? Early on, the vast majority of the community here was two-device focused. They had their phone, which was great at being a phone, then they had their Pocket PC, which was great at being a PDA. Few people were willing to put up with the compromises of all-in-one devices.

Early smartphones were glitchy, unstable, and generally not great products - sure, those of us here extolled their virtues, and did some amazing things with them. They got better over the years, but fundamentally everything about the Windows Mobile 6.x phones we have today are still based on the stylus-focused desktop-style operating system Microsoft created with the launch of the Pocket PC 10 years ago. Sure, I love my HD2, but is it a phone I'd ever recommend to my brother, sister, mom or dad? Nope, not at all. Too complex. Requires "management" of the device.

The mass market simply doesn't have the desire or patience to use phones like that; the market has spoken Gerard, and the rapidly fading marketshare of Windows Mobile tells the story, no matter how hard you scream and yell otherwise.

That you are so blatantly defensive of their wholesale dismissal of the multi-faceted investments of their user base of the past decade seems counter to what I and many others had in earlier times viewed as your role; namely an advocate for users.

In case you haven't been paying attention to the market Gerard, it was do or die time for Microsoft. Anyone that thinks that if Microsoft just made a few adjustments to Windows Mobile and it would magically be successful in the market today is deluding themselves. For years we all wanted improvements, adjustments, new features, etc. But no matter what Microsoft did, Windows Mobile 6.x would remain an OS designed to emulate the desktop Windows environment. It ran its course. Windows Mobile had a good run and did a lot for the market, but Microsoft was sliding into marketshare oblivion. Not this year, but if things kept going the way they were, three years from now I'd guess Windows Mobile would have maybe 5% of the market. Microsoft generally doesn't enter markets with the desire to be a small player.

Windows Mobile needed a radical reboot in order to survive, and if that means it's no longer exactly what a tiny fraction of the market wants, then so be it. You have to pick your battles in life Gerard, and it's not like I could have had any sway over the direction Microsoft was taking. In fact, you can even blame me if you want - year after year at Mobius events and MVP Summits, I encouraged Microsoft to go after a more finger-friendly design. I hated using the stylus, and it's gotten even worse with the tiny pixie styli that have been shipping with modern devices. They're totally unusable!

I'll withdraw from further comment on these developments, as my comments are neither wanted nor apparently relevant in the face of this new toy taking over from serious equipment.

You're welcome to continue to express your displeasure at Microsoft in these forums all you wish - just as others are welcome to disagree with you. Just keep the personal criticisms out of your posts.

[Jason Dunn]

They could have addressed a significant portion of the current OS limitations by doing the following: New strict hardware requirements with only 1 or 2 supported resolutions, processors, high volumes of Flash Memory, etc. ; Zune integration for media management/syncing; Full support for a true Touch interface and Capacitive touch screens

That wouldn't have been enough. What your describing are minor tweaks; Microsoft has slowly but surely lost the mindshare of the mobile market, and the only way to re-capture that is a total re-creation of their whole approach.

This is the right move for them to make, despite the bumpy road ahead and the alienation of some users. They made the hard call.

[whydidnt]

That wouldn't have been enough. What your describing are minor tweaks; Microsoft has slowly but surely lost the mindshare of the mobile market, and the only way to re-capture that is a total re-creation of their whole approach.

I agree starting over may make the most sense, but the items I laid out are the sweet spot MS should have been trying to hit to win market share. Instead they've gone off the control deep end. It reminds me too much of US politics, swinging from one extreme to the other, when a vast majority of the people live in the middle. MS has gone from the wild west where (almost) anything goes, to the Soviet system where the govt. (MS) will dictate when how and where we can use the device. (yes, I recognize I'm exaggerating);)

[Gerard]

Perhaps my comment needs re-stating, for clarification of the fact that I was not even remotely attacking you Jason:

It struck me that most of the pictures and comments you posted had nothing to do with the conference. Rather, your focus was on the socializing, the meals, the rooms, and the walk to and from the Best Buy. Now that's fine. But it's more and more the sort of thing I'm seeing with social networks. It's a kind of sweeping degeneration into irrelevancy.

I agree in hindsight that the application of your conference blog photos as an example of the point I was making in that paragraph was inappropriate, considering the NDA nature of your attendance of those events. But to call it personally insulting, as you and at least one other member seem convinced it was, is a bit of a stretch. Note the short qualifier sentence 'Now that's fine' which seemed to me to make clear that my point was precisely not intended as a personal attack. Perhaps I need a special 'this is not a personal attack' icon? Something like a bundle of flammable sticks... NOT on fire? It is regrettable to find my words twisted in this way, but sadly, akin to my point with that very paragraph, the level of communication skills online is fading rapidly.

I've found members of my own family randomly tossing in the linguistic disease of the apostrophe s ('s) after more and more words which simply do not need apostrophes. 5 years ago this was a running joke in some forums. Now if one comments, most other members seem to look at eachother as if to say 'what's up with grumpy?' I've got a client who flies 757 aircraft across the Pacific for a living (and plays the doublebass), another who's a decades-long symphony musician and university professor, and another who is a doctor practicing psychiatry (and plays the 'cello... which is an abbreviation for violoncello, and thus does in fact need an apostrophe), and each of these, along with myriad others in my contact list, routinely apply such popular ignorance as though it were the new English. Banana's, seriously? String's? Composition's? The list grows all the time, and my leaning is towards suspecting too much lead in the drinking water, or perhaps a widespread low grade CJD infection epidemic.

I do subject myself to regular scrutiny for maintenance of intellectual standards, and often find myself wanting to some significant degree. But resistance is not futile, it's imperative if we're to improve our collective lot. Which is a bit part of my abhorrence for Facebook and the like. There seems almost a plot against rigour in such places. And in an aside, where's the honesty in this comment about finger-friendly versus stylus interfaces? I'm using Windows Mobile 6.5.3, and find the finger-friendliness index to run rather high in almost all applications, certainly in native applications. There are a small handful of third-party apps which don't lend themselves well to finger use, but these are programs I cling to out of old habit (such as Scott Seligman's little conversion app, for which I know there are a half-dozen perfectly acceptable substitutes which do work very well with a fingertip) and don't really apply in the current general market. I wouldn't expect a new WM user to even find out about such exceptions. They're being offered apps by SPB, Resco, and lots of other clever developers who have gone out of their way to offer finger-friendly interfaces by default (and with user customization options for stylus-friendlier use in some cases, which in some apps is of great benefit). To pretend that this has not happened seems to me less than fully honest. Microsoft themselves have even stepped up with 6.5.3, reducing the upper bar height and adding those pixels to the lower bar such that a thumb can get most things done in menus, allowing for thumb/finger scrolling through everything, everywhere, and allowing modification of screen sensitivity/responsiveness to accommodate different device hardware and different user requirements - though this last is buried in the registry, and most easily accessed via third-party tweaking apps such as Advanced-Config.

I know that I'm welcome to comment further Jason. Just did. But I'm saying that overall, it has become apparent that most of my expressed perspectives are neither welcome nor remotely connected to the mainstream. Whether that mainstream mentality is coming from individual users or it is something which is being sold to them as what they should want because that's what the designers want to sell them - different being better from a corporate sales perspective, remains to be debated. I've yet to see a single forum seriously address that question regarding WP7S, where it certainly has been discussed regarding the iPhone... and I think the answer has been clearly established there. The koolaid has been consumed. Device sales couldn't be much nicer for Apple, though as every serious WM user knows, an iPhone really doesn't offer much we haven't had in our devices for years before the gen1 Apple devices appeared.

[Jason Dunn]

I agree starting over may make the most sense, but the items I laid out are the sweet spot MS should have been trying to hit to win market share. Instead they've gone off the control deep end.

Think of it like this: it's much easier to start over from scratch with a friendly system, and slowly stack features on top of that - features that add functionality, but don't de-stabilize the system - than it is to take a powerful but complex OS and try to make it friendly to new users. That's what Windows Mobile 6.5 was, right? A finger-friendly (sort of) coat of paint on an old UI. And did Windows Mobile sales spike? Nope, they tanked.

[Jason Dunn]

Perhaps my comment needs re-stating, for clarification of the fact that I was not even remotely attacking you Jason.

Here's what you said Gerard:

"Now that's fine. But it's more and more the sort of thing I'm seeing with social networks. It's a kind of sweeping degeneration into irrelevancy. Journalists and enthusiasts alike seem by and large to be prepared not to criticize nor ask pertinent and sometimes tough questions, but rather to stand at the end of a big corporate pipe and receive whatever comes flying out the end of it."

I think if you're honest with yourself, you'll admit the "Now that's fine" is a back-handed comment at best given that the rest of the paragraph essentially says that my sharing of photos was akin to "sweeping degeneration into irrelevancy" - and then for a cherry on top you insinuated that I'm not asking tough questions and am instead sucking the big corporate pipe. How could I not be offended by that? You're an eloquent writer and knew exactly what you were saying to me. Don't be disingenuous.

It's crystal clear to me that the reason you're so angry about Windows phone 7 is because you view it as a symptom of a widespread societal disease where people don't know how to use apostrophe's properly, everyone communicates in 140 characters or less, and society in general is dumbed-down.

It might surprise you that I'd probably agree with you on much of that; I'm constantly shocked and dismayed at the sub-human level of IQ I see on YouTube comments. On the other hand, I value the way Facebook has allowed me to be closer to the people I care about, and I enjoy the conversations I have with strangers on Twitter; it's interesting sharing ideas and opinions with people I wouldn't otherwise engage with. When it comes to social media, I prefer to see the glass as half-full rather than filled to the brim with excrement like you do.

Have you seen Idiocracy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0yQunhOaU0)? I think it's a movie you should watch...monthly. :D Oh, and watch Gran Torino (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000142/) every other month as well.

And in an aside, where's the honesty in this comment about finger-friendly versus stylus interfaces? I'm using Windows Mobile 6.5.3, and find the finger-friendliness index to run rather high in almost all applications, certainly in native applications.

I don't have extensive experience with 6.5.3 because I don't use hacked ROMs, but my opinion on it is that it's simply a band-aid on a limb that's been ripped off. It might staunch the bleeding for a bit, but nothing more than that. You simply cannot make a decade-old stylus-based OS as finger-friendly as one designed from the ground up specifically for that purpose. Windows Mobile is far past it's "Sell By" shelf date. It needed to be reborn.

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

whydidnt: I'm not sure, but while people in general aren't too picky about specifications, some things can still stand out. I doubt 1080 TVs would sell otherwise, right? Or 14 megapixel cameras (even though they're crap). It just needs the right marketing.

I still think you're underestimating the general populace. Or has the average intelligence of Americans slid so much backwards?

I remember showing the HD2 to some friends. Even the staunchest Apple supporter couldn't be helped but be wowed by the screen. Another fairly strong supporter of Apple even asked some questions about it... ultimately it was the lack of apps* that failed to make the sale, so to speak.

Gerard: You sound really really angry. For what it's worth, if things like apostrophes can irk you so much, wait till you see the standard of English here.

I'm not disagreeing with some of the things you say, but I think to diss technology because of the people using it is a bit... harsh. Technology is after all a neutral thing. It's up to the people to make full use of it.

Also, there have always been... less than bright people around. It's just that the affordability and accessiblity of technology that has made them more visible to us. Remember newsgroups pre-AOL? It was mostly filled with mature intelligent discussion. Even the flames were well-written. When AOL opened the floodgates, well.

But then again, do you really want to keep technology to only a select few of "intellectuals"? I don't. I believe everyone should have access to technology that can make life easier and better for us. The Internet especially, as a technology based on networks and information-sharing, it only grows stronger with more people participating in it. Sure there's a lot of junk, but that's just the same anywhere else. The Internet just makes it all more democractic, and I think ultimately that's a good thing. As long as we have the freedom to choose where to go (like the mostly sane Thoughtsmedia communities), I think it's all good.

Right, so I've gone a lot off-topic. What I'm trying to say is, don't discount change and accessibility as a slide towards the stone ages. If MS made a bad move, they'll know soon enough. I myself am not interested in the first generation devices for the all the reasons discussed already, but I also see no reason to moan and wail that this is the end of the road. This is a new Microsoft, and I'm certain they will make improvements to WP7S. Wait for the next generation.

*I know PPC/Winmo has a lot of apps, but really, do you want to saddle that beautiful and easy-to-use Sense UI with something that looks like it's from Windows 98, and operates like Windows 3.1?

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

About stylus-input: Frankly I think it sucks. It needs two hands, and exists only as an extension of the desktop OS paradigm. The Palm Treo 600 showed that it was possible to not depend on it at all *and* get things done as quickly if not quicker. I personally thought that phone was genius in its time, and is still my favourite smartphone experience to date.

On WinMo 6.5.3: Jason's too kind. I looked at the screenshots and it looks like a FrankenOS. What's with that bottom bar? It looks horribly slapped-on. Sure I think it has much potential to make things more friendly to use, but the way it was implemented shows that it's really a last minute hack job.

[Gerard]

You looked at some screenshots and declared it a failure? I've been using WM6.5.3 for quite a few months now, on two different phones, and have to say I disagree. I was suspicious at first, and agree that the screenshots left me unimpressed. But in actual use, every day, I find it's a major blessing just in the reduced necessity for popping out the stylus. If I need to input text I still use that, out of preference for Letter Recognizer, but otherwise for navigation of apps and reading information of whatever sorts it's very handy for one-handed use, like when I'm walking my kid back from school and holding his hand for instance, or holding a coffee... But if you don't want to use it, no one's forcing you. Go ahead and snipe from the peanut gallery, using trivial information for ammunition.

But what I'm posting again here for is really this:
http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/03/23/2327227/No-More-Firefox-For-Windows-Mobile
DOH! There goes another long-anticipated glory for WM. On behalf of us lingering WM6.5.3 users, thanks for nothing, Microsoft. You've trashed our opportunity to have the best browser in the world on our phones, plugins and all. And it was getting so close. Oh well, there's still NetFront at least.