Windows Phone 7 To Only Accept Managed Apps?

[Ed Hansberry]

<p>Electronista has posted information on the application environment for Windows Phone 7, and initially, it doesn't look good. Native code will mostly be inaccessible and they say that the restrictions will be even <em>tighter</em> than what the iPhone platform has. It was enough for Pocket Informant developer Alex Kac to say that it <a href="http://twitter.com/webis_mobile/statuses/9293579368" target="_blank">probably spells doom</a> for Pocket Informant. <img border="0" src="http://www.ehansberry.com/ppct/sad.gif" /></p><p>We'll have to see how this turns out when official information from Microsoft is released. It is expected that much more developer info will be made known at the March MIX event.</p>

[John London]

Well, that will mean the platform is doomed to failure. Brilliant move Microsoft, start packing your bags now. Guess it is time to move to another platform.

[Dyvim]

Reading the leaked document, I think Electronista has misinterpreted what it says. I think this is much ado about nothing.

[Ed Hansberry]

Reading the leaked document, I think Electronista has misinterpreted what it says. I think this is much ado about nothing.

I hope so. I am no developer, but the document looks pretty restrictive.

As I said, I hope there is a lot of clarity at MIX.

[efjay]

Can any kind developer explain what this really means? If you believe the hysterical rantings it means the end of applications on WP7, is this the case and MS intends for there to be no applicaitions available to users or is it a case of some devs not wanting to use MS's dev platform?

[Gerard]

With less than 2,000 applications currently being available on the Microsoft Marketplace store, and several hundred thousand (if not over a million?) out there being supplied as shareware or freeware by vendors and developers, the math is pretty simple. Unless Microsoft opens things up, and by a whole lot, they're going to lose droves of hardcore users. Locking things down not just in terms of vending rights (and getting the Microsoft seal of approval is historically difficult to say the least) but actually making it harder for developers to fit their applications into the new paradigm, well, agreed, they're spelling their own demise in the phone marketplace. I'm somewhat relieved to read that support for WM6.5.3 is going to continue for a time, and even that this support may go beyond trivial levels. But as Microsoft's direction dictates what the OEMs do, and if this new restrictiveness proves durable, it's the end of the road for many, many developers of Windows Mobile titles.

[kettch]

Am I the only one who thinks that requiring managed code is going to increase the capabilies and options for developers? It's also going to make it a whole heck of a lot easier to create good looking and functioning applications. I've already got a couple of application ideas sketched out in silverlight because they just wouldn't work otherwise, or would be prohibitively difficult.

I know that there is going to be a learning curve, but this is going to be a good thing.

[Dyvim]

I think you need to be a lawyer not a developer to understand the document (I'm the former, not the latter). :p

At first, I just read through the screenshots posted by Electronista, but just now I went back to the 3 screenshots originally posted in XDA-developers forum. I've changed my mind- it does indeed look like a new developer environment without access to native API's.

Anyway, there's no point jumping to conclusions until more info is released.

[Gerard]

And Silverlight has worked out so well, for, say, the 2010 Winter Olympics? I've seen a lot of Flash used on a lot of media sites. Mostly it works. I am not a fan of Flash, not for video presentation and certainly not for use as an application interface on a mobile phone, as it is inherently slower than .NET CF (which is unbelievably slow still) and tends to present obstacles to full use by many who go beyond 'click it and see what happens' usage patterns. In trying to watch the Olmpics here, in Vancouver, where they're broadcasting and trying to use Silverlight to show off the most usable online experience in Olympic history, we have been able to view about one quarter or the content presented as links. The stuff we do get to view may launch on first click, sometimes, but mostly it takes anything from 15 to 30 rapid clicks to get any response from the links. Bad coding? Gee, they only spent a few hundred million dollars developing the interface and related tools... I wonder, if they threw a billion dollars at Silverlight, would it work?

Silverlight has some nifty aspects. I'm not suggesting it shouldn't be used or that it shouldn't be supported on a phone. What I am saying is that it has a LONG way to go before it's ready for prime time, and to base important applications' functionality upon it would be risky at best. But I'm not a developer, just a device user. What do I know? Only what I see, which from Silverlight, isn't a whole lot.

[Jon Westfall]

Well, that will mean the platform is doomed to failure. Brilliant move Microsoft, start packing your bags now. Guess it is time to move to another platform.

How so? Specifically what makes you think (If the above turns out to be true, who knows how accurate it is) developers can't build rich and awesome experiences without native code? Restriction is probably a bad thing, however the most restrictive platform out there has quite a few apps that people would describe as "killer" or any number of other positive adjectives.

[frankenbike]

Honestly, I'm seeing fewer reasons not to switch to Android when I'm up for a new phone around November 2011.

As a consumer, and not a developer, and not an "enterprise user", I want what's best for me. I'm not made of money, and I like the little "free" apps that people do for themselves. MS seems to want to discourage if not entirely put a stop to this sort of thing. If I did become a developer of my own apps for my own purposes, I'd be happier doing it on the Android platform, I suspect, and releasing it on the "pay it forward" tradition.

I've used WM since 2003, but I think I'm done with it after my current contract is up.

[Gerard]

I've been a tester in the nPOPuk development group for a number of years, and have seen many improvements in this fine email application in that time. It's simply the most versatile and powerfully efficient email program available for Windows Mobile. Period. But today we've begun a discussion about the future of the WM side (it's also compiled for Win32 and some WinCE/HPC devices, and is supplied by some OEMs in their CE-based netbooks), and it's sort of seeming unlikely that a Windows Phone 7 version will be able to happen. That's in large part because the SDK won't be free, and the newly announced devtools from MS don't work with Express Edition tools such as our developers have been using. With zero income stream - nPOPuk is freeware - there are no resources with which to acquire the expensive development kit. So nPOPuk's connection with Windows Mobile is drawing to an end, apparently.

I know a lot of other freeware developers. They too will find themselves up against a wall with WM7S, as MS seeks to block unwanted developers from interfering with the purity of their phone environment and maximize profit potential through their Marketplace distribution system, charging both developers and consumers for the same software.

[kettch]

<snip>

No dev tools for WP7s have been announced, no SDK has been announced. Nobody knows a single thing about development on this new platform. All we have is speculation and rumormongering. Until MIX, it doesn't do anybody any good to get upset.

[daS]

After reading a little on 7, I elected to jump on the AT&T Tilt-2 instead. I use a few third party apps that I don't want to be without while the developer determines a port to 7.

While I understand the need to sometimes give up legacy support and move on in order to advance a system, I can't afford to always throw away software I've paid for in order to get the next new thing. So I still use an old version of drawing software on my desktop that only runs in "Windows XP Mode" (aka Virtual PC) under Windows 7. Likewise, I have an old copy of iNav that works great on my Windows Mobile 6.x phone without having to pay $10/month for online GPS software. If I have to give up that app or buy a new copy for 7 Series, then it's a non starter.

[Ed Hansberry]

Likewise, I have an old copy of iNav that works great on my Windows Mobile 6.x phone without having to pay $10/month for online GPS software. If I have to give up that app or buy a new copy for 7 Series, then it's a non starter.

So you stick with 6.x forever? Because if 7 is a non-starter for you, how are other platforms any better where you have to buy new apps too.

[daS]

So you stick with 6.x forever? Because if 7 is a non-starter for you, how are other platforms any better where you have to buy new apps too.
Greetings Ed!

Forever is of course a very long time.;) No, I'm not using any old DOS programs these days, so I do eventually move on.

Basically, what 7 means is that it's not a "no brainer" for me to simply say: I have WM apps so I buy a WM phone. Instead, once it's time to move on from the Tilt-2, I will have to look at all the platforms that are out there and see which best fits my needs. Perhaps it will be 7, or perhaps something else. In the meantime, I'm getting the last of the breed while there's still a chance.

PS: If you are at the Summit, please pass along my regards to all my other old MVP buddies.

[Gerard]

No dev tools for WP7s have been announced, no SDK has been announced. Nobody knows a single thing about development on this new platform. All we have is speculation and rumormongering. Until MIX, it doesn't do anybody any good to get upset.

Sorry kettch, I crossed my wires a little bit there. What I meant to say was that, with nPOPuk in particular and with many other independent and especially freeware developers, moving up to supporting WM6.5.3 is a non-starter due to budgetary constraints. With the often huge number of hours independent developers spend on writing the software, and even more hours spent personally and by dev teams in testing, it's just asking too much to pay for the tool kit. Microsoft today (or at least I think it was today) announced availability of the tool add-ons for WM6.5.3 development... not WP7S. They make clear on the download site that these tools are NOT available to work with the free, 'Express' version of the developer's kit.

It's not too much of a stretch to suggest that it will be at least as unlikely to see free or very low cost SDKs for WP7S compared to WM6.5.3, right? Okay, so that part's a guess, but the precedents are rather clear. Right now it would cost a lot to make toolbar icons space correctly in nPOPuk, we think... unless some tips forwarded by the developer of TotalCommanderCE happen to fit into nPOPuk, in which case the fixes he implemented in TC will be free for us as well. Barring that, this email program will fade out in terms of Windows phone relevance, and that's the sort of pressure on independent developers I was talking about. It seems rather unkind to exclude freeware developers from the mix, both in terms of their primary motivation in development (for their own personal use), and in the effects this has on the community, where so many users benefit from the overflow. Not to take anything away from shareware developers. Houses like Resco and SPB work very hard and earn their positions as front runners and award winners. But there's room for everyone, isn't there?

[DaveSadler]

Am I the only one who thinks that requiring managed code is going to increase the capabilities and options for developers? It's also going to make it a whole heck of a lot easier to create good looking and functioning applications. I've already got a couple of application ideas sketched out in silverlight because they just wouldn't work otherwise, or would be prohibitively difficult.

I know that there is going to be a learning curve, but this is going to be a good thing.

I couldn't agree more - and not only that, I know that I'm getting tired of being on a phone I cannot count on. How many times has WinMo let me down? I need some info right now, i need to get online right now, i need my contacts right now - oh wait, the phone needs a soft reset. I'll be with you in 3-5 minutes, sigh.

[Jason Dunn]

Can any kind developer explain what this really means? If you believe the hysterical rantings it means the end of applications on WP7, is this the case and MS intends for there to be no applicaitions available to users or is it a case of some devs not wanting to use MS's dev platform?

There are a couple of things worth noting here:

1) There's rampant speculation here and reading between the lines by people who truly don't know the truth

2) The developer story will all come out at the MIX event

3) Anyone who looks at the tremendous, ground-breaking effort that is Windows phone 7 and thinks that Microsoft doesn't want apps - and LOTS of GREAT apps - for their platform is an idiot

:D

[Jason Dunn]

Unless Microsoft opens things up, and by a whole lot, they're going to lose droves of hardcore users.

Indeed, I fully expect that for some of the more hardcore users of Windows Mobile - and I'd put you in that list Gerard - Windows phone 7 will not be the phone you'll want. I think the hack-it-all-you-want Andriod platform is where those hardcore users will go. But you know what? The other 99.99% of people will *LOVE* what Windows phone offers, and that's the market Microsoft is aiming for.

[Gerard]

I don't doubt that for a second Jason. Bit of a backhanded complement though, calling me 'hardcore' and 'an idiot' in the same post. ;) Of course, I am an idiot at times, as are we all. Especially so when strongly held feelings are let to run free without sufficient time allowed for sober reflection and information gathering, as I suppose is my situation with this whole fiasco. I'm calming down somewhat, a couple of days after having my blood pressure just about go through the roof while watching that Zune guy spout about how a phone is not a PC for so long. I'm almost prepared to sit back and wait like everyone else, just go with the flow for a while. But if it proves out that Microsoft is painting itself into a corner with this one, restricting access so severely as to exclude dozens or hundreds of important tools from the platform, well, I'll reserve a rain cheque on 'I told you so' rights.

[Rob Alexander]

Indeed, I fully expect that for some of the more hardcore users of Windows Mobile - and I'd put you in that list Gerard - Windows phone 7 will not be the phone you'll want. I think the hack-it-all-you-want Andriod platform is where those hardcore users will go. But you know what? The other 99.99% of people will *LOVE* what Windows phone offers, and that's the market Microsoft is aiming for.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought after watching that 20 minute video by the Seven design team guy. I started out thinking the whole thing looked terrible in the trade show videos, but I get what they're trying to do now, and the overall experience is really very well-though-out. Still, I'm not sure if it will be for me. We'll see how it goes, because we really don't have enough information yet to make an informed decision, but I'm thinking it's likely that I'll have to shift over to Android when my Imagio hits its end of life. I'll feel a bit of a loss if I do, though. It's been a very long road since that Velo1 and it would be the first time in many, many years that I wouldn't have a WindowsCE-based device in my pocket.

[Gerard]

Can you imagine it, dropping all those favourite CAB files? I'm having a hard time with that. I mean, there are just so many neat things one can do with all these apps, and I've yet to hear of parallel functionality for a lot of my favourite things on any platform besides Windows. Oh sure, a Mac can do most things, maybe all, that a Windows PC can do. But an iPhone? Not so much, compared to a WM phone. And Android has a good couple of years to go before it replicates that suite. So maybe the timing is about right, in that sense. By the time there is a host of diverse applications ready for Android, it'll be time to jump ship, as the last of our WM devices starts feeling dated.

[timwells]

There are a couple of things worth noting here:

1) There's rampant speculation here and reading between the lines by people who truly don't know the truth

2) The developer story will all come out at the MIX event

3) Anyone who looks at the tremendous, ground-breaking effort that is Windows phone 7 and thinks that Microsoft doesn't want apps - and LOTS of GREAT apps - for their platform is an idiot

:D

Kind of harsh, isn't it - especially from the guy that runs the site???

There is a difference between wanting lots of great apps and putting developers in a position to innovate with your platform. Of course they want the great apps, doesn't mean they are going to make it the best development platform (they had that already with WM 6.5).

IMHO Microsoft sent a clear message with WP7. They believe that OEMs and 3rd party software developers are to blame for instability in the WM 6.x platform. (I'm not arguing whether or not that is the case.) Everything is geared toward better Microsoft control over the platform. Hardware specs - doubtful that they were looking out for the 3rd party developers here - they want a stable set of specs so they they can write all of the drivers necessary to service the device, i.e. not relying on a 3rd party processor companies to provide that for them (notice right now that there is only a single processor company - Qualcomm - listed as providing a solution for WP7 - wanna bet that their hardware spec will spell out the acceptable processor type by name and model?). By not allowing OEMs to customize launch screens; by not allowing background processing (and yes, there are other interviews with Microsoft employees that indicate this is more than just a rumor); by hiding native APIs to OEMs and 3rd party developers - all of this is meant to provide them tighter control.

Think about it - if the development story was the same (or very close to it), why in the world would they have <b>not</b> said, "And you can develop for WP7 using the same tools and technologies that you use today"? Come on, Microsoft's not stupid. They wouldn't have given up on an opportunity to leverage the developer buzz about the platform, unless they had plans to drastically change the landscape. They're smart...they're trying to figure out how to drop this bomb without losing people. My guess is the reason they want the extra time is because they have a handful of developers porting well known apps so they can say - "see, it only took Developer X this many days to port their [insert PIM, game, social networking here] application into C# using Visual Studio 2010 and Expression Blend". Everyone knows what MIX is, right - it's a Microsoft "web technologies" conference, read XAML, Silverlight, C#. It makes perfect sense that these are the technologies that they are basing future WP7 development on. They are most definitely not going to talk about native application development at MIX.

How many times have we seen this before? Remember Steve Jobs saying the iPhone SDK was called Safari and JAVA (June 2007). He didn't believe that there was any application that needed to be written that couldn't be written in JAVA. And then 9 months later...oh...here comes a native SDK. Google insisted that all applications could be written in JAVA too, ah, but then about a year later, what do we have, the NDK - Native Development Kit.

I'm not a C++ bigot, but I will say that most serious apps are still developed in C++, even those provided by, you guessed it, Microsoft. I'll believe that they are drinking their own CoolAid when I see a version of Office Mobile written in C# and XAML. Unfortunately the rest of us (WM developers) don't have the luxury of time to wait around for Microsoft to figure out that they potentially hosed a lot of developers, and to boot, by preannouncing WP7 by 9 months, they just killed the pipeline (yes, all that wild speculation was better than turning off the pump). Every last one of us will have commited to an alternate platform before MIX even gets underway (to put words in Jason's mouth, you're an idiot if you don't have alternate plans in your back pocket come March). I'll take some of that 'I told you so' love along with Gerard.

[kettch]

The announcement at MWC was not intended for developers. The people at the press release were journalists. They don't know or care about developer stuff, so there was no point in talking about it then. So, I'm reserving judgement until MIX.

As far as the cabs and customization goes. The more I think about it, the more I realize that the different customization's that I apply are basically going to be moot from what I'm seeing.

I will say one thing that I always say in situations like this. Please don't limit your concerns to forums like this. Go rant on every single Microsoft forum. Go talk about this on Channel9. Get ahold of Scott Guthrie himself (ScottGu's Blog (http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/default.aspx)). He's the big cheese who runs the org that builds the mobile developer tools. He's a nice guy and does respond to customer concerns. Better yet, he's still a developer at heart.

[timwells]

The announcement at MWC was not intended for developers. The people at the press release were journalists. They don't know or care about developer stuff, so there was no point in talking about it then. So, I'm reserving judgement until MIX.


Oh, don't kid yourself...<b>everyone</b> goes to MWC. When Apple announced the iPhone SDK, it was in front of a room full of journalists. It's all about the buzz.

[Twain]

IMHO Microsoft sent a clear message with WP7. They believe that OEMs and 3rd party software developers are to blame for instability in the WM 6.x platform.

This notion is absolutely absurd. Microsoft cannot define the platform, provide the developer tools, go to great lengths to ensure Windows Mobile runs on virtually every conceivable screen format, encourage OEMs to produce any type of phone they want and then turn around and blame the developers and OEMs for "instability" in the platform! How ridiculous. Look. Microsoft is to blame for this mess.

What developer, except for the ones with the deepest pockets, can afford the time and cost of keeping up with all of these formats and a new UI every two years?? I'm a developer and I can't. Look at the applications for Windows Mobile; very few are optimized for any particular screen size. Instead, you'll see apps that just don't seem to "fit". Sure, the apps will "work" but the look and feel, well, feels off in many cases...

Now compare this situation to the iPhone. On that platform, developers only have to build one application UI to capture the market. On that platform, a developer can spend their precious time adding value and capabilities to an application rather than dealing with a proliferation of screen formats. Believe me, it makes a difference.

While I eagerly await any pronouncements coming from the MIX Conference, I don't doubt that Microsoft will emphasize managed applications. For years, they have been pushing .NET, C# and everything else in the "managed" toolset, while leaving C++ developers (particularly in the mobile space) behind. I'm not saying that I'm an old dog that can't learn new tricks. I do believe that if Microsoft artificially limits development on future versions of the Windows Phone platform to managed applications (or even if they continue to make it too difficult to use C++) there will continue to be a mass exodus of developers to other mobile phone platforms (Android, iPhone, etc.). After all, if I have to learn new development tools, Microsoft and Windows Phone aren't the only game in town.

Overall, I like the direction Microsoft is heading with Windows Phone 7 Series ... as a user. They did what they needed to do to come up with new paradigms while not chasing the iPhone or Android UI. Good on Microsoft. As a developer, however, I want choice in my development tools. So, until the MIX Conference, as a developer, the jury is still out.

[kettch]

Oh, don't kid yourself...everyone goes to MWC. When Apple announced the iPhone SDK, it was in front of a room full of journalists. It's all about the buzz.


Apple is also the king of announcing things at a time and place that they choose. So, you can't knock Microsoft for doing the same.

[kettch]

What developer, except for the ones with the deepest pockets, can afford the time and cost of keeping up with all of these formats and a new UI every two years?? I'm a developer and I can't.

I've been developing managed code since .NET 1.0, and in all of that time I've managed to legally obtain Visual Studio and other tools for free or very cheap. Right now with the BizSpark, DreamSpark and other partner programs, it's a breeze. Of course, I don't really consider $200-300 for VS Standard to be that expensive.

As far as the time involved I guess that's something I enjoy anyway.

[timwells]

This notion is absolutely absurd. Microsoft cannot define the platform, provide the developer tools, go to great lengths to ensure Windows Mobile runs on virtually every conceivable screen format, encourage OEMs to produce any type of phone they want and then turn around and blame the developers and OEMs for "instability" in the platform! How ridiculous. Look. Microsoft is to blame for this mess.

I don't disagree. Like I said, I'm not arguing that it's 3rd parties (which I happen to be one) or OEMs that are responsible, in fact, I believe quite the contrary (its the whole house of cards problem). But clearly Microsoft is trying to put the cat back into the bag with the WP7 release.

So, until the MIX Conference, as a developer, the jury is still out.
Better read up on your iPhone SDK documentation in the mean time.

[timwells]

Apple is also the king of announcing things at a time and place that they choose. So, you can't knock Microsoft for doing the same.

Exactly my point. They had a wonderful opportunity to reach a world full of developers. The fact that they didn't is a pretty strong indication that they are about to turn the WM development community on their heads.

[Twain]

I've been developing managed code since .NET 1.0, and in all of that time I've managed to legally obtain Visual Studio and other tools for free or very cheap. Right now with the BizSpark, DreamSpark and other partner programs, it's a breeze. Of course, I don't really consider $200-300 for VS Standard to be that expensive.
I have no problem affording the developer tools. I have maintained current versions of the Visual Studio Professional edition with Windows Mobile Tools for years now.

My objection is the time it takes to develop one application and if I want the app to be marketable, I must ensure that it looks good on every dang screen size for which an OEM has a Windows Mobile phone. Oh, don't forget "classic" vs. "professional" or whatever they called it.

All the time spent on resizing dialog boxes, fonts, etc., could have gone into adding capabilities. I understand that there have been stopgap tools to sort of automatically resize windows controls, etc., but at the end of the day, nothing works better than hand optimization of the user interface for each screen format. That's time I'd rather not spend.

[Twain]

But clearly Microsoft is trying to put the cat back into the bag with the WP7 release.
Agreed

Better read up on your iPhone SDK documentation in the mean time.
Actually, I am on the verge of looking into the Android developer tool set.

[landswipe]

Agreed


Actually, I am on the verge of looking into the Android developer tool set.

Ditto... for the last 6 months.. The writing was on the wall.

I sure hope for WP7's sake that Microsoft 'dalvikize' their .NET CF runtime (aka. register based VM, etc).

[gdoerr56]

You've got to be kidding....

The Apple / iPhone experience for developers is one of the most restrictive out there, bar none. They have a flourishing developer communication because it the environment and the target devices are largely consistent, even with their restrictions.

Just because Microsoft decides that you now have to write managed code, the whole thing is doomed? Give me a break. I'm expecting that most of the applications running on Windows Mobile today will have to be rewritten, if they are even relevant anymore.

As long as Microsoft is consistent with the platform and they don't give too much lattitude to the device manufacturers to widely vary the platform, they'll do fine. Oh, and it would also help if the manufacturers actually wrote quality drivers for their hardware. I'm not holding my breath on that last one.

[kettch]

I have no problem affording the developer tools. I have maintained current versions of the Visual Studio Professional edition with Windows Mobile Tools for years now.

My objection is the time it takes to develop one application and if I want the app to be marketable, I must ensure that it looks good on every dang screen size for which an OEM has a Windows Mobile phone. Oh, don't forget "classic" vs. "professional" or whatever they called it.

All the time spent on resizing dialog boxes, fonts, etc., could have gone into adding capabilities. I understand that there have been stopgap tools to sort of automatically resize windows controls, etc., but at the end of the day, nothing works better than hand optimization of the user interface for each screen format. That's time I'd rather not spend.

I really think that is will probably be moot with WP7. I don't know about screen size, but the aspect ratio is dictated by Microsoft. If they go the Silverlight route, making something look good will be easy. It's got powerful template and style tools, and it's resolution independent.

[frankenbike]

There are a couple of things worth noting here:

1) There's rampant speculation here and reading between the lines by people who truly don't know the truth

2) The developer story will all come out at the MIX event

3) Anyone who looks at the tremendous, ground-breaking effort that is Windows phone 7 and thinks that Microsoft doesn't want apps - and LOTS of GREAT apps - for their platform is an idiot

:D

They could have lots of great apps now. I don't even see a fraction of the existing free apps that work fine, on Marketplace.

What possible evidence based on what Microsoft is doing right now with the current platforms on the market, and "Marketplace", would lead you to believe that Microsoft wants lots of "GREAT apps"? Or rather, what do you think they'd consider "great"?

I see a lot of fun apps that people show me on their iPhones and Android phones. I wouldn't consider a one of them "great". But they're fun. And they're cheap or free. Like the keyboard that plays cat sounds. It's downright stupid. But take it out when you're standing in line to get lunch, and it makes everyone laugh for a minute. Or the flute that you play by blowing into the microphone of your phone while playing it. Or the "magic 8 ball" that works by shaking your phone. Essentially non-grown-up stuff, that grown ups like because they don't want their phone reminding them about work.

And of course you can get serious, business specific apps on the other platforms too. Some have no equivalent for cheap on WinMo. Like footage/frame calculators for film and animation.

If MS did not disdain consumers with a passion, this product would never have been necessary:
http://www.freewarepocketpc.net/opnmarket/

As it is, it's a subversive fanboi product. A triumph of trying to help your people living under a repressive regime. A rebellion against the official "Marketplace" with its utter contempt for the people. Why on earth have we been making excuses for WinMo and pinning hopes on a future for a product produced by a company that so obviously seems to hate us?

[kettch]

I've never really be interested in developing anything for Windows Mobile. It's because of some of the reasons stated here. It's just plain hard to do anything that looks good and works on more than one device.

However, even in the face of all the rumors and angst flying around, I plan to start developing applications for WP7. I know others who have similar plans.

[Macguy59]

Indeed, I fully expect that for some of the more hardcore users of Windows Mobile - and I'd put you in that list Gerard - Windows phone 7 will not be the phone you'll want. I think the hack-it-all-you-want Andriod platform is where those hardcore users will go. But you know what? The other 99.99% of people will *LOVE* what Windows phone offers, and that's the market Microsoft is aiming for.

MS continues to drift toward Apple's closed eco system ;)

[Twain]

You've got to be kidding.... Just because Microsoft decides that you now have to write managed code, the whole thing is doomed? Give me a break.
I don't think anyone here is saying Microsoft's Windows Phone 7 Series is doomed. One point I am making is that if Microsoft really wants an army of developers out there to populate their Marketplace with "must have" applications, they would be well-advised not to limit the choice of developer tools.

[Russ Smith]

There are a number of reasons I've stuck with Windows Mobile over the years. At the top of the list are multi-tasking, storage card support, and the applications that I've built up over those years which transferred with each iteration of the software. (For example, I use the SoftMaker suite for far greater compatibility with desktop Word and Excel.) Any competing OS had to have enough of those applications that I use now to make it worth my time to switch. If my current apps won't make the transition, that puts 7 at par with all those competing OSes.

[martin_ayton]

Indeed, I fully expect that for some of the more hardcore users of Windows Mobile - and I'd put you in that list Gerard - Windows phone 7 will not be the phone you'll want. I think the hack-it-all-you-want Andriod platform is where those hardcore users will go. But you know what? The other 99.99% of people will *LOVE* what Windows phone offers, and that's the market Microsoft is aiming for.
But the 'other 99.99% of people' don't participate in forums like these, Jason.

3) Anyone who looks at the tremendous, ground-breaking effort that is Windows phone 7 and thinks that Microsoft doesn't want apps - and LOTS of GREAT apps - for their platform is an idiot.
Colour me a half-idiot then (thanks, Jason). I'm sure they want those apps, I remain extremely cynical about whether this is the best way to get them.

[Birdsoft]

You've got to be kidding....

The Apple / iPhone experience for developers is one of the most restrictive out there, bar none. They have a flourishing developer communication because it the environment and the target devices are largely consistent, even with their restrictions.


Not really. If you lock down WM to Managed code, you will be going 10x worse than Apple has. Yes, the approval process, a few private apis, and certificates still leave some problems and questions for iPhone development. But you are developing with all Objective-C and C++ which isnt even close to the level of restriction of the .NET stuff...

There are reasons all of the big commercial WM applications are C++. One is Performance. And Microsoft has been notoriously bad about giving any performance in the APIs you can use on the managed side. I dont see that changing. So all of the big PIMs as an example will just not be possible on the new devices. And they havent really upgraded the Organizer from what they've shown, to make the features of the good PIMs obsolete on the new platform. What then?

Up to this point you simply can't make better applications with the managed side.

It will not be a good thing and will not be a quick re-write...

Im with Alex in crossing my fingers over here, but...

[Jason Dunn]

I don't doubt that for a second Jason. Bit of a backhanded complement though, calling me 'hardcore' and 'an idiot' in the same post.

You'd only be an idiot if you thought that Microsoft doesn't want lots of great applications for their new Windows phone 7 platform - and I'm sure you don't think that. :D We may disagree somewhat about what "great applications" are - you use more freeware than I do - but I think we both agree that applications matter, now more than ever.

I also think it's important to realize that all ecosystems evolve - you were complaining previously that the nPOP guys can't afford the new toolkit. Would it really be so bad if freeware became 99 cent-ware? 99 cents is so low cost it might as well be free in my book, and if charging 99 cents means these developers can buy the tools they need and even (gasp!) make some money off their work, all the better! Wouldn't you pay 99 cents for nPop?

But if it proves out that Microsoft is painting itself into a corner with this one, restricting access so severely as to exclude dozens or hundreds of important tools from the platform, well, I'll reserve a rain cheque on 'I told you so' rights.

We'll know more after MIX, but by default, it's looking like everything that came before it is out in the dumpster. As in, this is a new platform, and it requires re-development of all applications. Those "dozens or hundreds of important tools" you're talking about will need to be re-developed for Windows phone 7. If they're not, then I guess you'll lose them if you move to Windows phone 7.

I need to write a big ol' front page post about this, but what this comes down to is that Windows phone 7 is really a 1.0 platform - you'll understand why as 2010 progresses and Microsoft talks more about what is and isn't in this product.

Just like the iPhone and Palm Pre required development from scratch, so too does Windows phone. "Scratch" from the perspective of a non-developer mind you...perhaps there are components of pieces of the application that a developer can re-use. In fact, I hope there is!

[Gerard]

You'd only be an idiot if you thought that Microsoft doesn't want lots of great applications for their new Windows phone 7 platform - and I'm sure you don't think that. :D We may disagree somewhat about what "great applications" are - you use more freeware than I do - but I think we both agree that applications matter, now more than ever.
I don't for a minute think that Microsoft doesn't want loads of applications to be written for WP7S. I just think they're not going to get them for quite a while, since many developers will be, or already are from what I've been reading about wholesale migration to Android development, go where the grass looks a bit greener. I can 'want' a big pile of cash to drop into my lap until I turn blue from waiting, but it isn't going to happen unless I provide incentives for those holding that cash to start throwing it at me. Microsoft seems somewhat oblivious in the incentives department. While they seem to have been rather successful in the first round with the new OS in bringing partners on board, multi-millionaire partners anyway, it remains to be seen how the average solitary developer or small companies are going to cope with the new limitations on access. One example has been nicely provided by Birdsoft; there's a developer with a proven track record of writing amazing PIM software, years ahead of Microsoft's own team's work in terms of user convenience and efficiency in accessing PIM data. If Birdsoft isn't liking the writing on the wall, I'd take that somewhat seriously.

As for there being any substantial difference between freeware and shareware, sorry, I don't see it. The most substantive difference tends to be in graphical gloss. The more one pays, the more pretty skins one sees on buttons, the whole UI, whatever. There are freeware apps for WM going back years which simply out-perform their shareware equivalents, hands down. I still use Scott Seligman's 'Conversions' app, un-changed in 5 years or so. It still finds a reputable online monetary conversion database whenever I use the update menu option, takes a couple of seconds, then all currencies are updated. It still uses a dead simple drop-down menu interface to convert all the most commonly useful measures into other formats. It's still only about 31KB in size, including the auto-generated XML database. Still a standalone, needing no registry data nor installation, and still runs instantly on launch. Compare that kind of performance to ANY paid software for the same sorts of conversions. What's the difference? Scott made it to enhance his own experience of the device. He has a donate button on his site. That's enough.

I also think it's important to realize that all ecosystems evolve
Evolution usually involves some sort of continuity... though perhaps from your perspective that's opening a can of worms? Still, whether one understands our world as being relatively new, or billions of years old, we shouldn't allow confusion over definitions to get in the way. This move with Windows Phone 7 is apparently (subject to further clarification from Microsoft, but so far all reports seem to support this) not an evolutionary step, rather it's an abandonment of all previous connection to the 'family tree,' from hardware buttons used (gone is convenient button mapping in so many, many applications), to entire GUI (Microsoft's new rule regarding forbidden OEM GUI tinkering seems quite clear), and the elimination of ALL previously authored programs. Not evolution. As you say, this is a 1.0 release. Windows Mobile has just been declared 'extinct.' All the apps in its ecosystem which were dependent upon it for survival, whether paid or free, are by definition made extinct along with it. Some may survive the paradigm shift by similarly jumping into new forms, dumping their old code and writing it all over again for the new guy's ecosystem... but many simply won't survive.


Wouldn't you pay 99 cents for nPop?

For nPOP, no. Though the Japanese developer has adopted some elements from the separately developed (for the past 7 or 8 years anyway) nPOPuk, nPOP is still nowhere nearly as functional as nPOPuk, so it would be a big step backwards for my dollar. Would I pay 99 cents for nPOPuk? Sure, if I hadn't already put in hundreds of hours in helping develop it, along with donating a functional Toshiba e800 for the developer to test on. My usual rate is $50/hour in my profession. While I don't expect that for helping develop applications for Windows Mobile, by exhaustive testing and accurately reporting results and making feature suggestions, I do expect some payback in the form of free use. Similarly, I receive all Resco's products free, as a member of their VIP list, and Softmaker's products, and a few others. I do use a lot of freeware. I also use a lot of shareware. I just don't have to pay for it like I used to, in some cases.

Those "dozens or hundreds of important tools" you're talking about will need to be re-developed for Windows phone 7. If they're not, then I guess you'll lose them if you move to Windows phone 7.

If it pans out like it seems it will, to me and a few others, then no, I'll not be moving to Windows Phone 7. There are other platforms offering better speed, a more inviting atmosphere for developers, and generally a better 'attitude' than what I'm seeing from Microsoft. As someone, somewhere put it a few days ago... we've been suffering for years as Windows Mobile users, trying earnestly amongst collegues and family and friends to defend the products we use, while the source of these products blatantly hates us. Microsoft has shown very little interest in accommodating the expressed needs and wants of its user base. They either remain aloof, un-heeding, or they make the odd excuse followed by a vague, seldom kept promise. Google is behaving rather differently in this.

...you'll understand why as 2010 progresses and Microsoft talks more about what is and isn't in this product. [quote]
Oh I think we understand the 'why' part. Marketing. Windows Mobile simply wasn't cool enough to compete with Apple and Google and others. Not because of any inherent flaws, though sure, there are many. No, it's because Microsoft and most of their partner corporations spend almost nothing on marketing, on education. If they had just reached out to the general public (and sorry, weak support for Pocket PC Magazine does not count - that's not public advertising, that's tiny niche advertising) 10 years ago and grabbed their attention, maybe the platform would have gone further. I think it would have. I'm not alone in thinking this. And for 10 years Microsoft dropped the ball, allowing the slow-motion shift of even many power users away from their devices. But the iPhone, from months before the thing even became available for purchase, was ubiquitous in the public awareness! It's still inescapable. I can't open a magazine or a weekend newspaper flyer without seeing an iPhone or an iPod Touch. I can't walk 5 blocks without seeing an iPhone ad, a BIG iPhone ad, unless I stick to residential streets... and on those I'm pretty likely to see an iPhone in someone's hand, the user jogging, or poking around on the screen, or pressing it to their head. That level of ubiquitous presence in a culture is massively important for a company to thrive with a product. Microsoft doesn't make the hardware, fine. But they have partners who do, and those guys simply do not advertise even 10% as much as Apple has, and continues to do. It's such a rarity to find a Windows Mobile device being advertised that it actually surprises me when I do see one. This indicates either an incompetence of unbelievable proportions, or a positive will to have the platform fail. I'm guessing it's a bit of both.

[QUOTE=Jason Dunn;718570]Just like the iPhone and Palm Pre required development from scratch, so too does Windows phone. "Scratch" from the perspective of a non-developer mind you...perhaps there are components of pieces of the application that a developer can re-use. In fact, I hope there is!

Palm died through much the same means as Windows Mobile is being allowed to die, though to be fair, Microsoft has done some nice things with WM6.5.3, and it's a real shame to see them just drop it all. 6.5.3 has some new UI shifts which cause minor trouble for some apps, but these are correctable. The other day TotalCommanderCE's developer shared a bit of code with nPOPuk's developer, and now we have proper toolbar icon support back under this latest WM OS version. The advantages for finger use with 6.5.3 are obvious, and freeware such as ArkSwitch for task management puts the icing on the cake. I don't know anything really about the Pre, and since I lost all interest in Palm the first time I tried a Palm device, don't really care to investigate. It's a dead-end company. Their perspective is too limiting, their platform not really a computer at all. The 'cloud' junk makes it less interesting than ever. I'm sure there were lots of old school Palm users who felt much as I do now though, that they had been first abused, then abandoned by the company they helped build through buying devices and applications.

But saying the iPhone had to be built from scratch, that's disingenuous. It's not like there was a pre-iPhone, with millions of people as the user base, who were abandoned when the iPhone itself was released. Same for the developers. Just as with the iPhone, I'm sure Windows Phone 7 offers a nice opportunity for new developers, those who do not stand to lose much of what they've invested in development for a soon to be defunct platform. We have some vague references to ongoing 'support' for WM6.5.3, but the nature of this remains a mystery. That's the single biggest 'rain cheque' issue as far as I can see. If Microsoft and the OEMs decide to stop making WM6.5.3 available, as in, there are no more devices forthcoming after the currently announced batch, then that's the end of it. We are subject to their whims.

[michaell]

My feel is that Microsoft is more confident in there OS than they should be. WP is quit small and the user interface is not the best. I feel that it is mainly because all third party developers that WP is where it is today. It seem that the OS it never fully developed before release, a lot of major bugs like not being able to syncronize with two computers with 6.1 is really bad for customers. Further, all real breakthru has been made by other OS and developers like Spb and HTC TF3D. I don´t know where Microsoft is going, but if going this way, the OS is dead!

[efjay]

MS continues to drift toward Apple's closed eco system ;)

Well that closed ecosystem generates millions of sales in 1 quarter alone and is single-handedly boosting the bottom line of apple to the tune of billions of dollars. Those millions of consumers for the most part arent complaining and apple certainly isnt as the iphone sweeps all before it, including android. I guess MS is looking at that success and wants a slice pf that pie.

We will know more at Mix10, however I think with WP7S Microsoft is targetting a different demographic than it has previously, and these users are not typically the kind of users looking for advanced PIM or email features and are happy to use the default builtin programs, rather they are more concerned with games, social networking, music, videos and internet which are all areas that WP7S appears to be focused on and so it may make sense to limit the kind of access more intensive programs can have.

[Gerard]

If that's the case, and it seems obvious that Microsoft is indeed going for the same demographic as is Apple with the iPhone and iPod Touch, then why not fork development? Why not offer devices for more 'PC in your pocket' types of consumers and businesses, alongside the Zune crowd? Surely Microsoft is big enough that it has the resources to do both, right? I mean, it's not like asking the same team to do both, in fact quite the opposite. Have a dedicated development team on the Windows Mobile side, in a different building, working on solutions to long-standing problems and adding new features to the existing platform, and by extension allow continued development (and profit) for the many developers who have given so much already to Windows Mobile, who in fact have fostered Microsoft's bottom line staying above the red with this platform. Users have stayed with WM because of existing and continuing software for the platform, not because the raw OS is so usable.

But that's asking too much, right? With Microsoft, it's all or nothing, can't have too many irons in the fire. I can understand dumping Vista. I just can't fathom the logic of dumping Windows Mobile, in terms of the effects on existing users both private and corporate.

[Jason Dunn]

Kind of harsh, isn't it - especially from the guy that runs the site???

Apologies if it came across as harsh - I don't really expect anyone to raise their hand and say that they truly believe that Microsoft doesn't want to have a lot of apps for Windows phone 7, so I wasn't calling anyone here an idiot. :)

There is a difference between wanting lots of great apps and putting developers in a position to innovate with your platform. Of course they want the great apps, doesn't mean they are going to make it the best development platform (they had that already with WM 6.5).

This is a fascinating statement - you really believe that Windows Mobile 6.5 is the best development platform? Why then are all of the most innovative, amazing applications over on the iPhone side of the fence? Or even Android?

I've watched as, year after year, the most creative developers built apps for other platforms first, and Windows Mobile is an afterthought (if at all). That's not to say that there aren't some creative, talented developers for Windows Mobile - we do have some great apps...but there's really not that many. The fragmented state of Windows Mobile - the nightmare of 6+ resolutions and pathetically low baseline hardware - has, I believe, kept the best developers away from this platform.

[Jason Dunn]

Exactly my point. They had a wonderful opportunity to reach a world full of developers. The fact that they didn't is a pretty strong indication that they are about to turn the WM development community on their heads.

Windows phone 7 is a pretty mind-blowing experience compared to previous version of Windows Mobile, so you really think they should have piled a developer story on top of that? No way. They made the right call to hold out on talking about the developer story for a bit. And, let's face it, they have 8+ months to fill until the products come out, so they need to doll out the info in chunks, not turn on the fire hose.

[Jason Dunn]

My objection is the time it takes to develop one application and if I want the app to be marketable, I must ensure that it looks good on every dang screen size for which an OEM has a Windows Mobile phone. Oh, don't forget "classic" vs. "professional" or whatever they called it.

I'm not a developer, but I've seen this complaint time and time again - and I think it's a core reason why Windows Mobile has lost so much momentum in the apps space...it's a PAIN to develop for this platform.

So even if Microsoft goes the managed code route and puts developers in a sandbox, isn't that restriction worth it to develop for a truly UNIFIED platform with a single resolution, and guaranteed kick-ass hardware with gobs of RAM, a fast CPU, GPS, graphics acceleration, etc.?

[Jason Dunn]

But clearly Microsoft is trying to put the cat back into the bag with the WP7 release.

I think it's more akin to taking the cat and the bag and throwing it off a cliff, then going out and buying a whole new bag. :D

(apologies to cat lovers out there...I abhor violence against animals, but you get the concept...)

[Jason Dunn]

But the 'other 99.99% of people' don't participate in forums like these, Jason.

Indeed. While I value the community here, I expect to see a shift over the next 12 months as the truly hardcore Windows Mobile fans move to Andriod - people who embrace the chaos and frustration of a fragmented OS - and I expect to see an influx of new users who are excited and invigorated by what Windows phone 7 offers. All things change. I for one am weary of what Windows Mobile has become and all the frustrations I feel using it.

On the other hand, it's not like 6.5 is fading into oblivion right away - it remains an important platform and we'll continue to cover it.

Colour me a half-idiot then (thanks, Jason). I'm sure they want those apps, I remain extremely cynical about whether this is the best way to get them.

I'm pretty amazed that people took that comment of mine to heart - you really think Microsoft built Windows phone 7 with the mentality that "apps suck" and "We don't need no stinking developers!". If you really and truly believe that...then I don't know what to say. :confused:

[Gerard]

I for one am weary of what Windows Mobile has become and all the frustrations I feel using it.

I can identify with weariness. There have been innumerable frustrations with Windows Mobile, not the least being the phasing out of infrared ports - it was SO convenient using a folding infrared keyboard, and Bluetooth still isn't reliable nor simple enough to bother wasting money on a Bluetooth keyboard, and USB-host capability has never found wide spread adoption by developers so my rollable rubber USB keyboards lie in a box with the infrared ones. It's certainly about time for some minimum standards in hardware to get past accessory frustration... but from the model shown last week, it doesn't look likely we'll be seeing an increase in accessories with WP7S. It's more of a self-contained, less flexible platform, more like a Sidekick or a Blackberry, though with obvious enhancements in the GUI to make that a bit less painful. Still, typing at length on the little screen? Nah.

And in software the frustrations are many of course. Yet so are the causes for contentment, as titles such as the Softmaker Office suite and various Resco and Spb apps and so many others make these little computers so satisfying to use, in everything from fun and games to hardcore document editing and graphics work. With the speedier machines, such titles operate very smoothly, similar to how their counterparts (whether from the same developer or just an equivalent type of program) work on the Win32 notebooks and desktops. Interoperability of filetypes between platforms makes for a very satisfying experience, especially when one's phone can be tethered to the PC as an external volume (bypassing the cumbersome connection routine and extremely slow transfer/save rates of Mobile Device Center and before that Activesync) thanks to things like WM5torage and Card Export.

With WP7S, is this sort of ease of use even part of the equation? From what's been shown so far, not so much. Office got a somewhat glossed-over mention in the presentation, and in the dedicated sites covering the OS the emphasis is very heavily on manipulation of social media/phone apps/gaming, very little about actual work, about actual files. I see a lot of a different kind of malaise in the cards for future WP7S users, not so much frustration with minor limitations and glitches, more about wholesale lack of utility in the name of ease of use.

I'm pretty amazed that people took that comment of mine to heart - you really think Microsoft built Windows phone 7 with the mentality that "apps suck" and "We don't need no stinking developers!". If you really and truly believe that...then I don't know what to say. :confused:

How is it not alienating to developers when Microsoft essentially tosses their collective millions of hours spent in development off that same cliff? I'm having a hard time imagining developers not being livid with anger at this sudden dismissal of their efforts. Sure, I agree, it does present at the same time a new opportunity, and there will be a big overlap in mindset with some software types, some developers being very readily adaptable to the new paradigm. But for many, the leap represents a very substantial investment in not just the SDK but in countless new hours spent coding fresh material. Part of the cost of doing business? That's easy to say as a non-developer who isn't faced with losing almost their entire market, with stragglers using WM6.5.3 the only ones left to help amortize all that investment. Imagine being a manufacturer of accessories which only work on a Prius, then suddenly that car gets pulled from the market, while you're stuck with all the tooling and materials inventory specialized for that one item. You could say 'shouldn't have over-specialized in such a short-sighted fashion' but is this fair, if the car's makers gave no notice of it being discontinued? Until a couple of weeks ago, there was every indication that WM7 was going to happen.

[Jason Dunn]

...the least being the phasing out of infrared ports...USB-host capability has never found wide spread adoption by developers so my rollable rubber USB keyboards...Interoperability of filetypes...one's phone can be tethered to the PC as an external volume...

Gerard, you're going to hate Windows phone 7. That's all I'm going to say on the topic. This is not going to be the mobile OS for you.

How is it not alienating to developers when Microsoft essentially tosses their collective millions of hours spent in development off that same cliff?

Given that you're not a developer, and neither am I, it's presumptuous for both of us to speak for them. Yes, if nothing is compatible (and we don't know that for sure yet), it will make some of them angry. But what if, instead of focusing on the myriad screen resolutions/hardware configurations that Windows Mobile has today, their next app only has to be coded and tested for ONE device? I think that concept will excite a lot of developers.

Anyway, I'm choosing to see the glass as half full, you're choosing to see it filled with poison. :D We'll see what happens.

[Gerard]

Not the mobile OS for Gerard? Sure, you're bang on. But I suspect the ship I'm on will be full, not a lonely trip, as we head for richer waters.

[Twain]

So even if Microsoft goes the managed code route and puts developers in a sandbox, isn't that restriction worth it to develop for a truly UNIFIED platform with a single resolution, and guaranteed kick-ass hardware with gobs of RAM, a fast CPU, GPS, graphics acceleration, etc.?
That would just be the ultimate insult if developing via managed code was the only approach offered, despite the other upsides you mention. It almost suggests that the only way Microsoft can get developers to fully embrace their managed code vision and jettison native tools, C++, etc., is to give them no other option!

I admit that I may be spoiled by having access to native tools in all previous editions of the Windows Mobile developer tools. But, that just means I have a significant amount of code that is suddenly not available for reuse. With Windows Phone 7 Series, one hopes that if you've written your apps in a layered fashion, the user interface layer is all that needs to be rewritten. If that isn't true, everything gets tossed out to be completely rewritten. NOT a pleasant thought!

[Jason Dunn]

Not the mobile OS for Gerard? Sure, you're bang on. But I suspect the ship I'm on will be full, not a lonely trip, as we head for richer waters.

It's delightful to see someone that's even more dramatic than I am! :D

[Gerard]

That's not what the former Canadian lead MVP told me... ;-) Said you were a regular troublemaker.

[Jason Dunn]

That's not what the former Canadian lead MVP told me... ;-) Said you were a regular troublemaker.

So before we head too far down the road of gossip and slander, let's stop this part of the conversation please?

[Gerard]

He meant it in a good way Jason, no slander intended. Your reputation of old for being a warrior on behalf of Pocket PC users is honourable indeed. If it seemed a cheap shot, sorry, I thought the meaning would have been clear. You have done good things for the community to say the least, and while our views differ rather a lot on recent changes in Microsoft's plans, I'm sure your intentions are exactly where they should be as regards our community.

[Jason Dunn]

He meant it in a good way Jason, no slander intended. Your reputation of old for being a warrior on behalf of Pocket PC users is honourable indeed.

Ah, I see. The winky was before the statement about me being a troublemaker, so I thought that part was serious. No harm, no foul then. I am, indeed, known for giving the Windows Mobile team a hard time if I think they need to change something. ;)

That's part of why I'm so excited about Windows phone 7...there are things that aren't public yet that I'm SO excited about. We're talking really core things that have been HUGE pain points in the platform, and they'll now be TRANSCENDENTLY BLISSFUL in comparison. Yes, there are some compromises and things that this 1.0 platform will lack at the beginning that will tick some people off, but overall for me the pros outweigh the cons. It won't be the phone for everyone, but for my needs, wow, it's going to be fantastic based on what I've seen so far.

[Gerard]

mmmmm.... yummy NDA secrets... too bad my MVP status now doesn't seem to warrant sharing in any of those. I've been wondering for months just why I signed those documents, since MS never seems to tell me anything that anyone else would be interested in hearing. Certainly zero regarding Windows phones of any sort, WM nor WP alike.

[efjay]

Ah, I see. The winky was before the statement about me being a troublemaker, so I thought that part was serious. No harm, no foul then. I am, indeed, known for giving the Windows Mobile team a hard time if I think they need to change something. ;)

That's part of why I'm so excited about Windows phone 7...there are things that aren't public yet that I'm SO excited about. We're talking really core things that have been HUGE pain points in the platform, and they'll now be TRANSCENDENTLY BLISSFUL in comparison. Yes, there are some compromises and things that this 1.0 platform will lack at the beginning that will tick some people off, but overall for me the pros outweigh the cons. It won't be the phone for everyone, but for my needs, wow, it's going to be fantastic based on what I've seen so far.

Can you tell us WHEN we will know about these exciting features, at MIX or later?

[Jason Dunn]

Boy this is getting off-topic...but anyway...

mmmmm.... yummy NDA secrets... too bad my MVP status now doesn't seem to warrant sharing in any of those.

Until just two days ago, I didn't realize you were an MVP! :o How long have you been an MVP for? I haven't seen you post in the private newsgroup. It's weird how we don't hear now who's new. Not exactly community-building.

I've been wondering for months just why I signed those documents, since MS never seems to tell me anything that anyone else would be interested in hearing. Certainly zero regarding Windows phones of any sort, WM nor WP alike.

That's why coming to the Summit is important - that's where we got to see all the fun stuff. :)

[Jason Dunn]

Can you tell us WHEN we will know about these exciting features, at MIX or later?

Nope, I'm not sure when we're able to talk about this stuff. The reality is that Microsoft has many months of space to fill so they're being very purposeful about how they release info...but I'm going to try and create some content under NDA that, when I'm allowed to publish it, will offer some real insight...

[Twain]

The reality is that Microsoft has many months of space to fill so they're being very purposeful about how they release info...
This is exactly why people ought not to hold their breath until the MIX conference. If you do, you're bound to be very disappointed by how little they show. Instead, I believe the "reveal" will be dragged out over several months while Microsoft tries to generate interest and keep the buzz going. Think about it. How can Microsoft possibly sustain interest until phones come out late this year by revealing everything at once in mid March? I'm predicting a significant amount of confusion and unanswered questions, still, by the end of the MIX conference.

[Gerard]

Until just two days ago, I didn't realize you were an MVP! :o How long have you been an MVP for? I haven't seen you post in the private newsgroup. It's weird how we don't hear now who's new. Not exactly community-building.

Sorry about the topic drift, not cool, I should know better.

I've been part of the crew, in title at least, since October sometime. It seems likely that Sasha's departure just after that made for something of an in-elegant transition compared to past MVP seasons, but not having been part of that previously I wouldn't know really.

That's why coming to the Summit is important - that's where we got to see all the fun stuff. :)

Ah, the luxuries of the globetrotting lifestyle. Bit of a homebody myself, as my trade (most of my time is spent repairing doublebasses, though a lot more violins have shown up lately) keeps me here working, neck deep in overdue restoration promises. It's nice to be needed, but doesn't give me a lot of freedom for persuing hobbies. For instance, I'd love to have a clear couple of days to really study all my collected materials on touchscreen mods for the Asus 901, and then finally chose a wiring pattern I like and put the touchscreen I bought a year ago into my Asus, but between my work and my wife's work and studies (leaving me looking after my 3.5year-old boy, and he doesn't let me work at all) there just haven't been those two days. A conference would be a blast. Wish I'd been asked 6 or 7 years ago, when I actually had that kind of flexibility.

But that's what I depend upon folks like you for Jason. Those who can actually write, and can actually see what's going on in the greater context of WM development, sharing what you know with the rest of us, that's just really handy. If my MVP status doesn't get me something like that delivered to my inbox, the trophy just doesn't do me a lot of good.

As for the private newsgroups, I wish I had the time there as well. I gave it a bit of thought. But truly, it'd mean taking time away from my family, my work, or both, and neither can stand to be cut back.

[efjay]

Nope, I'm not sure when we're able to talk about this stuff. The reality is that Microsoft has many months of space to fill so they're being very purposeful about how they release info...but I'm going to try and create some content under NDA that, when I'm allowed to publish it, will offer some real insight...

Ah well, thanks. Only 13 more days to go....