Windows Mobile Loses 2.7% of Smartphone Market in Q2 09

[Pete Paxton]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/08/windows-mobile-loses-27-of-smartphone-market-in-q2.ars' target='_blank'>http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/ne...arket-in-q2.ars</a><br /><br /></div><p><em>"Microsoft's mobile market share continues to drop year-on-year, according to data released by Gartner. Smartphone sales were up to 41.0 million in 2Q09, a 27 percent increase over 2Q08's 32.3 million. Windows Mobile, however, only managed to grab 3.81 million of those units in 2Q09, or about 9.3 percent. The number of units wasn't much of a drop from 2Q08, where they booked 3.87 million sales. But the segment was smaller then, and that was was good enough for 12 percent of the market in 2Q08; given the growth of smartphone sales, the drop has to be very disappointing."</em></p><p><img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com/resizer/thumbs/size/600/spt/auto/1250179076.usr11642.jpg" style="border: 1px solid #d2d2bb;" /></p><p>I recently took a vacation from Portland to St. Louis and had to visit a few airports. I've noticed that airports are a great way of telling what people are using as a mobile device so I'm always scanning the crowds to see what people choose. I visited airports in Portland, Denver, St. Louis, and Albuquerque. You know which devices I saw the most? Blackberry Curves and Iphones. Of course there were others but these are the two I saw the most. When I traveled a few years back it was mostly Windows Mobile devices, so it wasn't exactly shocking when I read this article. With so many Android devices coming out and the rumor of Dell getting back in the game, it makes me wonder where Microsoft will fit in. What's it going to take to get Windows Mobile devices back in the thick of it? Will Windows Mobile 6.5 or perhaps 7.0 do it or will they just continue to slip? When you're out and about, do you see many Windows Mobile devices? If not, what are you seeing most?</p><p>&nbsp;</p>

[badersk]

I often get asked what kind of phone I have (It's a tilt) when I reply that it is windows mobile I often get "why don't you get an iPhone, it can do everything". Microsoft has done a poor job of marketing windows mobile and a worse job of improving it. Not that I think it is bad but they were unprepared for the iphone and android and they are not spending much energy improving it. I am not a programer so I don't fully understand what is involved but they should have focused on wm7 bring up to or past current systems and not spent so much time on 6.5.

[kerrins]

I also have a tilt and it's funny to me when iPhone people say, "mine does this" and I have to smile and say, "yes, mine has done that for a while." The iPhone is easily better looking than a tilt, but functionally there isn't a significant difference. I do wish MS would focus more on their mobile applications and mobile OS. It would be difficult to find anyone without a mobile device now. I wish MS would stop treating mobile OS like a fad. It's here to stay, make a good one.
As for the polling. Mostly blackberries and iPhones in the airport (SJC, DEN, PHL, LAX).

[virain]

I use G1. Most devices I see on streets of New York are either Blackberry or iPhone. I think one of the biggest problem for WM is a poor marketing. When I talk to iPhone users, they are quiet aware that WM functionality is more superior to iPhone. Yet you have to respect conventional wisdom. One of the WM problems in loosing the ground I see is highly unresonable pricing. Even if you look at the release of TP2 by T-Mobile USA. $350 compare to sub $200 for Android devices. It does seems like a price fixing to give unfair advantage over WM to Android which T-Mo, btw, promotes very agressive.

[Sven Johannsen]

Not sure I could tell many devices apart without getting up close and personal. Sure the iPhone is pretty distinctive, but from a little distance it is prety tough to distinquish a BlackJack or Epix from a host of Blackberries. With HTC using very similar outward designs for their WM and Android models that gets tougher too. Even looking at the home screen, with all the customized UIs out their, it is getting harder to tell if it is a WinMo phone.

Couldn't agree more on the marketing, but I guess it is hard to market an underlaying OS with so many diverse form factors, software complements and customization that is the result of the sell to OEM and let them run wild business model.

I have been using an iPhone for a bit now, a hand-me down, and not a day goes by that I don't get to say "why the heck can't I...[fill in the blank]". Still the user experience, for what it does do, is pretty smooth. If MS needs to take anything from Apple...it's their marketing team. ;)

[Gerard]

While I don't visit airports often, I do see a lot of musicians in my business (repairing instruments), most of whom use cellular phones. The iPhone is far and away #1 with these people. I don't see any Blackberries among my clients - my little brother is a film director and he uses one of those, as do most around him. Many musicians also use Mac computers, and one seems to follow the other, though the penetration of the iPhone in this sector seems to have outpaced the Mac by quite a large percentage - many of my clients use a Mac, but lots of others use a PC.

As for why, it seems fairly obvious that the two reasons already mentioned are fundamental; pricing and marketing, which in this case blend together somewhat. A good WM phone with a screen anywhere nearly as nice as that of the iPhone (size for ease of finger use and viewing pleasure, pixel count for the latter, colour saturation in any sort of ambient light) costs a small fortune. Any idiot with slightly better than minimum wage income can pick up an iPhone with a cellular contract. Bingo - market a shiny, pretty toy to everyone, make it affordable, then reap the rewards in data plan costs and long term contracts.

Microsoft's $#!T poor marketing has been a perennial topic as far back as I can remember in PPC forums. Seems we were ranting about that back in 2000, when the subject was 'how can Microsoft take some of Palm's market share?' Palm gradually, inevitably failed, through their own lack of foresight in terms of feature upgrades and a stale OS. No lack of out and out marketing there, just device interest failure. Microsoft had virtually nothing to do with it. Just lucky.

But the iPhone presents a different challenge. An iPhone can do things this week which it couldn't do last week, and will do even more things next week, all thanks to the abundance of developers just leaping at this opportunity gone wild. So what if most of these new applications are pure garbage? It doesn't matter. Some of them are golden. I've been impressed more than a few times with the clever integration of finger-operability, beautifully rendered and cleverly designed graphics, and simple, does what it's supposed to do functionality of some of these apps. And they're cheap, or free, like the iPhone itself. People like cheap and free. People generally do not like $30 or more for a file explorer or a text editor or a media player... etc. Handango and PocketGear have long since encouraged inflationary pricing on apps for Windows Mobile devices, and even developers who sell independently tend too often to charge inordinate fees for simple functionality. Add the cost of a handful of WM apps ($100+) to the cost of an average iPhone-league device ($500+) and the $600 or more is going to put a lot of people off before they even get started.

Then there's that enduring charm of Apple simplicity. Whether it translates into depth of utility for the power user is irrelevant. Power users are not the market being sought. Oh sure, Apple is happy to sell to corporations, and in some businesses they are doing just fine at that job. Other businesses won't be interested because Windows Mobile devices are the only things capable of performing certain tasks. Apple need not shed any tears here, as they're covering the rest of the world's population nicely, from householders wanting a convenient recipe book in their pocket (which happens to let them update their Twitter account while baking muffins!) to school kids wanting to be just as cool as other school kids to commuters who want to watch music videos on the subway to just about anyone else you can think of.

The iPhone 'gets it' in a way the Pocket PC/Windows Mobile Smartphone does not, in terms of the everyman. We can sit around resenting that, or try to ignore it, but I've also watched as one by one, WM device users around me have become iPhone users, and have seen how they smile, how they positively glow, showing off the gee whiz tricks their big beautiful screens can display. And the tricks the microphone brings into the fray make it a whole lot more fun. Simplicity is not to be discounted too lightly. The iPhone makes loads of user-desired functions, whether social network related or just personal, a breeze to implement.

So far I remain un-tempted. There are just too many things a Windows Mobile device can do for me, too many programs I've long since become addicted to using and for which there are no Apple analogues. But for many this is not the case. Jumping ship seems so, so easy for them. The guy I bought my current HTC Elfin from was positively glowing at the ease of use his shiny new iPhone offered, after years of struggling with lockups and glitches with WM phones. He is far from alone in this. Microsoft needs to wake up, stop being stubborn about listening to users, and get with the program. Or lose this war. It's that simple.

[Fritzly]

I see mostly iPhone and Blackberry too; I am also beginning to see some Android.
If MS will loose the battle .... it was fully deserved: after Palm committed "suicide" MS became the winner and it did not have to fight for it. Maybe this was its curse or maybe the company was just shortsighted and arrogant; anyway they slowed down the OS development, focused solely on the Enterprise forgetting that a phone is not "Office" and the amount of personal users is exponentially bigger than the corporate ones.
How is it possible that a simple, incremental update like 6.5 is taking so long? and WM7? Its development is taking longer than the one for Longhorn, and we all know as Longhorn ended........
Bottom line: has MS lost the battle? Not yet but I am sure that in London bookmakers are offering a high quote for MS victory.

[palur]

MS had no serious competitor in touch screen based cell phones till recently. Apple has great marketing strategies and create lot of hype.
1) They create some cool programs such as "Bump", "Mover" and multitouch screens and try to mesmerize the public and the media alike. Functionalty wise, Iphone was no superior to WM initially. Now, it is the cool factor based on many useless (tell my age, play flute etc) as well as some useful apps. MS never bothered to highlight from the beginning that such cool applications were possible on WM phones.
2) AT&T store is an extension of Apple store. You will see reps spending time to explain each and every feature on Iphone either on a huge Iphone model or on an actual device.
3) MS made no effort to market WM aggressively.
4) WM has lots of free applications including several cool ones, but never made it known to everyone and never had an app store like apple does. I had to explain and point to several free applications to the WM users in the past, whereas, Iphone has everything on APP store.

Though I have an Iphone now, I miss my HTC Touch HD screen and functionalty and just waiting for Touch pro2 or Omnia2 with US 3g bands.

[Fritzly]

[QUOTE=palur;711166]MS had no serious competitor in touch screen based cell phones till recently. Apple has great marketing strategies and create lot of hype.
QUOTE]

Well MS touch screen worked decently using a stylo not fingers; Apple introduces, in the cellular phones arena, Touch" using fingers. Nothing new of course: restaurants and bar have had it for years but the iPhone applied the paradigm to phones.
I would not characterize this as just "marketing".
I still believe that MS and its inferiority complex toward big Enterprises made them loose focus and concentrate only on the business side forgetting that nowadays everybody carries a cellular phone.

[Craig Horlacher]

I also see almost all iPhones and BlackBerry's. I have a Curve for work. It's ok. The battery life is amazing - I only need to charge it once or twice a week. I should mention that I only use the BB for email, rarly phone calls. Still, the battery life is impressive.

I think Microsoft has just sat around and done nothing significant with the Pocket PC since they changed it from using ram for "drive c:" (you know what I mean, main storage memory) to using flash for storage in WinMo 5 - if you want to call that significant. They still have not fixed (so it is fixed for all devices, all oems) the problem that causes programs to crash if the app or the apps open file is stored on a storage card. If it's fixed on your device, thank your OEM. Imate has not fixed it and I'm using WinMo 6.1. That's been an issues since at least 2003se. I was not happy when I got my $800 WinMo and it still had that issue. Also, mine only supports MicroSD, not even MicroSDHC!!! What a joke!

I'd switch to a different platform but I love the apps, non-Microsoft apps mostly, for the Pocket PC. Once there are good replacements for a different device, I'll probably switch. So far, the iPhone isn't close nor is the BlackBerry from what I've seen. Yeah, I think the iPhone has more apps but not as good, not as full featured, or maybe just not what I'm looking for.

I'm surprised microsoft is wasting more time and money on the Zune. Most stores figured out a few years ago that nobody wanted the thing. The Zune HD looks very impressive but I think they're going to have a hard time selling it in an iPod world. MS really needs to kill the Zune, which never seemed to have any market share, and put resources in to WinMo, or maybe kill WinMo too and just put resources into Windows 7. That may be the only area they have some chance. I like Bing but I think they need a lot more than that to make a dent in Google. If they can really make Win7 as good as it seems and support it very well maybe they can start getting some Mac people back on PC's.

[possmann]

I could not agree more with what has been said here and the observations. Yes, MS sucks (always has) and marketing to the personal (not business) users. MS also has a unique challenge here that Apple and RIM don;t have; MS only makes the operating system and then leaves the rest up to the hardware vendors while Apple and RIM control the entire process. You can't ignore this as contributing to the success of these devices as opposed to the winmo OS.
There is no argument that there are tons of great features of the WinMo OS but it always appears that the OS was designed for the "more than casual user". Another way of looking at these three OS's; WinMo appears to be made by someone saying "let's port the Windows OS on to a phone" while the other two are operating systems built for mobile phone use from the ground up. I am not saying that WinMo wasn't built in the same manner, but the appearance and user interface of the WinMo system is that of making the Windows Desktop OS work on a phone. Subtle, but very significant when it comes to User Experience and stability.
For many months I have been pleased and frustrated at the same time when I look at the great "overlay" that HTC created for the WinMo system. Pleased that someone took the initiative to make a user friendly way of navigating through the WinMo OS. Frustrated that it took a Third Party to do it when I think it shoud have been MS' responsiblity all along.
It's exciting to see the Zune HD OS - in fact I would go so far as to say just trash the WinMo OS and build out the Zune HD "OS" as the mobile phone OS. Something significant needs to happen to WinMo in order to get it back in to the marketplace and compete with these two (iPhone and BB) and I think the Zune HD "OS" is the revolution that needs to occur.

[whydidnt]

As for why, it seems fairly obvious that the two reasons already mentioned are fundamental; pricing and marketing, which in this case blend together somewhat. A good WM phone with a screen anywhere nearly as nice as that of the iPhone (size for ease of finger use and viewing pleasure, pixel count for the latter, colour saturation in any sort of ambient light) costs a small fortune. Any idiot with slightly better than minimum wage income can pick up an iPhone with a cellular contract. Bingo - market a shiny, pretty toy to everyone, make it affordable, then reap the rewards in data plan costs and long term contracts.
...
But the iPhone presents a different challenge. An iPhone can do things this week which it couldn't do last week, and will do even more things next week, all thanks to the abundance of developers just leaping at this opportunity gone wild. So what if most of these new applications are pure garbage? It doesn't matter. Some of them are golden. I've been impressed more than a few times with the clever integration of finger-operability, beautifully rendered and cleverly designed graphics, and simple, does what it's supposed to do functionality of some of these apps. And they're cheap, or free, like the iPhone itself. People like cheap and free. People generally do not like $30 or more for a file explorer or a text editor or a media player... etc. Handango and PocketGear have long since encouraged inflationary pricing on apps for Windows Mobile devices, and even developers who sell independently tend too often to charge inordinate fees for simple functionality. Add the cost of a handful of WM apps ($100+) to the cost of an average iPhone-league device ($500+) and the $600 or more is going to put a lot of people off before they even get started.



I think these two paragraphs explain it best. Many here are fixated on the "touch" aspect of the device and the "simple interface" and those are factors. But when you compare the ownership cost of an iphone to WM, WM does not compete. Add in the aforementioned simplicity factor and it's not even close for many consumers. So on the consumer side of things Microsoft and their OEM partners have chosed NOT to compete. Windows Mobile devices are more expensive, the apps are often 3- 5 times as expensive, they have smaller screens, far less memory and aren't as user friendly. I know many power users say - but I can do XX on WM and can't on the iPhone. What you fail to realize is that power users can and will jailbreak the iPhone, significantly reducing that WM advantage. Regular old consumers would NEVER take advantage of that stuff on WM anyway.

On the corporate side, RIM has always offered the perception of an easier to use, easier to manage email eco-structure. I have to carry a blackberry for work and hate it. I don't find it all that usable, but I have to admit that it NEVER crashes, has great battery life and does well at retrieving email.

So, when I'm in airports or public places, I see many, many blackberrys and iPhones and a rare WM device. But I'm not surprised, since Microsoft has been running out the same OS for the last 7 years without any significant improvements. On the hardware side, WM devices, except in rare cicrmstances have NOT pushed the hardware envelope. How long have been running 400 - 600 Mhz Processors? It's still a rarity to see a phone with more than 256-512 ROM. What did they think was going to happen??

[SteinyD]

I have been a WM fanboy for many years. I don't want to admit what I've spent every time the next latest and greatest device has been released (usually HTC). I've enjoyed what the user community has brought to this platform by way of xda-developers, this website and others. However, with the release if the iphone 3GS, I had another look. I had said many times that I couldn't live without a phsyical keyboard, the ability to manage my device the way I want to manage it, etc. And then it happened. I bought it. There is very little I have missed about the WM experience except for complete Outlook synchronization and better alerting and alarming management as was provided by products such as PhoneAlarm. Otherwise, the Iphone just works. Love or hate how tightly Apple manages the app environment, it hardly every fails and I have once since getting the device have had to restart it.

Microsoft seems to have lost their way with the mobile platform. They have been exceedingly unprogressive in what they are producing. 6.5 is not a radically new product, offering radically new features or enabling new hardware abilities. The hardware vendors keep changing form factors and sometimes for the better, but where is it today compared to 5 years ago? Not very different. The OS is slow, the devices are prone to resetting or resetting to factory default. I guess this isn't much different from what we see on the Microsoft desktop. Windows 7 is going to make a difference. Do we have to wait for WM7 to be that for the mobile device? MS still won't acknowledge the existance of WM7 even under NDA discussion. They need to say something soon regarding their strategy before Apple and Google run away with the market.

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

The funny thing about Gerard's post is that many of the iPhone's strengths he mentioned WERE Palm's strengths too. Which makes the idea that Palm killed itself due to a stagnant OS and allow Windows Mobile to take over a little sad (for both parties).

[TimFountain]

I think the problems of WinMo run a little deeper than just a "lack of marketing". I have a Black Berry 8820, Touch Pro and an iPhone so I think I can draw a couple of conclusions.

1. MS only owns half of the equation (software). They do not own the whole platform and this uneasy alliance between hardware manufacturers and the OS provider creates some fairly significant gaps in usability and time to market.

2. The lack of a consistent, easy or even possible OS upgrade is a major turn off. Older users just get left in the dirt by their provider and/or MS and have to resort to hacked and buggy half backed “cooked” ROMs, if they are luck and brave enough. Providers are even worse; my Touch Pro from Vodafone came with a totally unworkable WM 6.1 and Vodafone still have not publically upgraded it.

3. When you do want to upgrade, it is a major pain requiring a total re-install of all apps and data. This is unacceptable and unnecessary.

4. HTC Touch Flo is a nice face on a pig. The underlying WM 6.x OS is slow, unresponsive and in several area downright obstructive (think connection profiles, Bluetooth connection, pairing and Sync Center to name but a few).

5. Customers in general do not care about the OS, just what the phone can do. WM fails badly in the flash dept (iPhone) or connectivity (BB).

6. One thing the WM did well was to cater to businesses. We use Lotus Notes at work with a BES and BB Connect is a viable solution for WM and of course BB. The iphone just doesn't work in this setup and so far there doesn't seem to be any solution for customers not on Exchange Server.

7. Battery life is a joke. I am lucky if I get a whole day of heavy use out of my TP. My BB will go for 3-4 days at the same usage and still have battery left. The iPhone is in the middle.


I do not think the issues (especially #1) are really solvable and thus in the long term WM will become increasing irreverent and within approx 3-5 years WM will be dead. MS could solve this if they were to start making handsets and the OS, aggressively market the PHONE (not the OS) but I do not think this will ever happen. Maybe MS needs to buy HTC?

- Tim

[jimtravis]

Although I am not in airports often, I do use public transportation daily, and see the influx of iPhones, and Blackberrys. I realize people have stability problems with WM (as some do with mobile OS X), but WM has been extremely stable, and reliable for me since I switched from Palm OS about 8 years ago. Based on all the horror stories I had heard, I was reluctant to switch; however, I was pleasantly surprised by how stable WM is, and am glad I made the switch 8 years ago.

I like the bigger screen WM devices like the Toshiba e830, Dell X51v, and HP210. I rarely use the stylus since even the standard WM today screen is finger friendly on a 4" screen. Many of the problems with WM on smartphones are due to the small screens used. I currently have a Touch Pro, and like device a lot. I do wish the screen was bigger, and will upgrade to the Touch Pro 2 when I can.

I do not own an iPhone because it is too feature deficient for my needs. I did purchase an iPod touch to experience mobile OS X, mobile Safari, and multi-touch (all overrated IMO).

Apple's marketing deserves a lot of the credit for the iPhone's quick success. Watching network TV during prime time for a week, and you will be exposed to about 20 iPhone commercials vs. zero for WM, a couple for Blackberry, and a few for various feature phones. Non-tech consumers equate mobile internet access, and cool apps exclusively with the iPhone because the iPhone is the only device they see on the TV commercials demonstrating those abilities. Many shows have multiple iPhone commericials in a one hour episode. The non-tech consumer does not realize other platforms had similar abilities, and many more features for years before the iPhone was released.

Apple did the same marketing with the iPod. Multiple iPod commercials per night on network TV, subways stations plastered with iPod ads, subway trains plastered with iPod ads, and multiple outdoor advertisements. Also, Apple marketed "cool" with their very successful silouette ads. Many younger iPod buyers were buying cool not the clickwheel, iTunes etc. Great marketing job by Apple. Apple continued the great marketing with the iPhone, and rode the coattails of the iPods success.

[SteinyD]

I have been a WM fanboy for many years. I don't want to admit what I've spent every time the next latest and greatest device has been released (usually HTC). I've enjoyed what the user community has brought to this platform by way of xda-developers, this website and others. However, with the release if the iphone 3GS, I had another look. I had said many times that I couldn't live without a phsyical keyboard, the ability to manage my device the way I want to manage it, etc. And then it happened. I bought it. There is very little I have missed about the WM experience except for complete Outlook synchronization and better alerting and alarming management as was provided by products such as PhoneAlarm. Otherwise, the Iphone just works. Love or hate how tightly Apple manages the app environment, it hardly every fails and I have once since getting the device have had to restart it.

Microsoft seems to have lost their way with the mobile platform. They have been exceedingly unprogressive in what they are producing. 6.5 is not a radically new product, offering radically new features or enabling new hardware abilities. The hardware vendors keep changing form factors and sometimes for the better, but where is it today compared to 5 years ago? Not very different. The OS is slow, the devices are prone to resetting or resetting to factory default. I guess this isn't much different from what we see on the Microsoft desktop. Windows 7 is going to make a difference. Do we have to wait for WM7 to be that for the mobile device? MS still won't acknowledge the existance of WM7 even under NDA discussion. They need to say something soon regarding their strategy before Apple and Google run away with the market.

Sorry for quoting myself here, but what I should have added was that I was much happier with one device. While I had my WM device(s), I was able to get my corporate mail on the same device using Good Link. One device was a requirement I've had for a long time and was finally recognized in the last year or so (due to corporate constraints). However, now that I've bought the iPhone for personal use I was forced to make a conscious decision to move back to two devices - one for personal and a blackberry (data only) for work. Apple continues to make very small steps towards enterprise security compliance. As a matter of fact, with their security features in their OS 3.0 having been hacked a few weeks ago, our company folks are now completely disregarding any consideration for the iphone with this OS release. So the iPhone isn't perfect but quite I have found it to be quite a bit more reliable in its day to day use as compared to the WM based devices.

[PROlenick]

While a lot of the other factors discussed above have been important, a large part of the "cool/uncool" issue - and the very real usability issue - is because MS has allowed the physical platform to get away from it by not requiring screens at least as large as for the original non-telephone Pocket PCs for full WM phones.

In the absence of a "full-size screen" requirement, the phone companies have been able to limit the available devices to smaller screens. This has simultaneously reduced usability without a stylus, readability of text, and coolness.

I'm still using an HTC-designed Verizon XV-6600 running the six-year-old PPC 2003 2nd Edition, because I refuse to move to a smaller screen. Instead, I buy a new rebuilt XV-6600 online every so often (usually in pairs, out of fear that it may be my last chance to do so), since devices this small and complex seldom last even a year of use.

Just the same, I'm often asked "Is that an iPhone?" because it has a large screen. My stock response is, "No, it's an Old Phone - you can't get one like this any more except second-hand."

Still have a few stockpiled against this one's failure. I get a new battery every time I buy one - I'm up around six or so (plus the ones I've discarded because they wouldn't hold a charge any more).

If the Samsung Omnia II becomes available soon, I'll upgrade. I'll probably revert it to the standard Today screen, and then install spb Pocket Plus to make it the way I want it.

And I'll only have had to wait six or seven years to upgrade!

[Gerard]

Tell it brother! I've longed, ached even, to have my old Toshiba e830 be a cellphone. The screen is just so gorgeous and the dual slots and USB enable so much versatility, along with infrared so I can still use it with my Stowaway folding keyboard. But without phone functions I just can't make myself use it day in, day out. I'm a one-device guy. Need it all in one place, if I'm to have it with me all the time. Putting part of my business life in one PDA and part in another just doesn't make a lot of sense, nor does keeping tabs on two battery charge levels. The CF card GSM solutions offered by several companies never did surmount the incoming call wakeup problem, so they were really only glorified walkie talkies with hefty price tags.

I'll suffer with the tiny screen of my Elfin a while longer, hating it, hating the lack of infrared which translates to only minimal PIM and phone use, hating the absolutely ridiculously slow browsing with IE or Netfront... until finally there's a large screened phone running WM6.5. Then it'll be upgrade time. Meanwhile my Asus netbook is seeing a lot of use where my PPC used to be just fine for most chores.

[palur]

I love WM devices inspite of using Iphone now (I give grand rounds about PDAs in Medicine and was forced to buy Iphone to understand what it can do and what it can not).
As someone said here, You rarely see an ad from AT&T about HTc products with WM OS. AT&T is an extension of apple store. It is all about marketing and MS left it out for the OEMs and carriers to canvas for the WM devices. AT&T reps are not happy about WM devices as they are not given as much orientation as they are about Iphone.
WM devices come in lot of flavors, which is a boon and a bane, as each one can be so different as far as modifying/editing certain features, it needs a more than a casual user to figure out. The system changes are somewhat straightforward in Iphone but bit complex for a casual user on WM.

I can still vouch that WM devices have lot more functionalty and marketing has not yet exploited. I do not want MS to give up on these devices as I simply love them (I have seven of these and waiting for samsung OmniaII and Touch Pro2).

[jimtravis]

@Gerard

Totally agree about the Toshiba e830. I like the device so much I still use it daily. I will be sad the day apps I want to use will no longer work on PPC 2003SE.

I used the Toshiba e830 with a very small SE T610 phone via Bluetooth. The connection was slow due to the phone only supporting GSM (this was before Edge or 3G were available). I liked the combo because the phone was small, and remained in my pocket when using the e830. When I needed to make a voice call, I had a nice small device, not a huge PDA/smartphone. I wish a small clamshell phone was available with 3G, and Bluetooth. Probably would have to use this wished-for 3G small clamshell phone with the HP210 since my beloved e830 supports bluetooth 1.x.

The e830 had many firsts - 4" VGA screen, Bluetooth and WiFi, graphic processor, 128MB memory standard, USB, and optional VGA out. I did several presentations (PowerPoint, and display mirror) at the local PDA User Group using the VGA out from the e830 to the classroom ceiling video projector. Quality of projected image was excellent. I have purchased an extra e830 via eBay, and some spare batteries. The e830 has been super reliable for me, and so far, most apps I want to use still work with PPC2003SE.

I always credited Toshiba for being the innovative vendor for PPC, and Sony for being the innovative vendor for Palm OS. I was sorry to see both leave their respective platforms.

[Russ Smith]

I work in an electronics store (so keep in mind that demographic) and I've noticed that I'm seeing a lot more smartphones in general. People are constantly checking online prices and information before they buy a motherboard, processor, or hard-drive. The odd thing is that the iPhone is present, but not in a majority. I see as many WM devices as Blackberrys as iPhones.

One of my fellow employees even remarked lately that he wishes he'd been able to afford the unlocked WM phone I got instead of his iPhone. (Expandability was the key there.)

I'd agree with the folks that say that marketing is most of the problem. Apple has had two major successes (iPod and iPhone) by catching a rising wave and marketing by implying that there's nothing like their products. I can smile when I say "Mine has done that for a few years now." but that doesn't change the fact that most consumers don't know that.

So far my "loyalty" to MS has been that, when I compare all the features I want, WM has the only devices that do it. The list of distinctives is getting smaller though. MS not only needs to get some real marketing chops, but do some more innovation if they want to stay in the game.

[TheBigCheese]

I have a Touch Pro (my 2nd Windows Smartphone) and aside from the terrible marketing, there are other reasons all the latest apps comeput for the Crackberry and iPhone and second for Android, third for Pre, and finally, the smallest segment for Windows.

1. Usability-very few people want the Windows interfrace on a cell phone. Too many clicks to do common things

2. Battery life - my Touch Pro gets at most 10 hours on a charge, often 6 hours if I'm in a poor reception area.

3. Stability - at least once a week, my phone locks up. About 10% of the calls, if I don't answer within a fraction of a second of the 1st ring, it goes to voicemail. Why does it not riung until the caller hears 4 or more rings? It lights up but doesn't ring!

4. Inconsistent interface. Some programs use windows scroll bars, other you touch and drag your finger. Some support cut and paste but others don't (Skyfire and Microsoft's own Facebook app).

5. Non-working update. Click on the windows update button and you always get an error message. Why did Microsoft add the feature and then never release any updates. Speaking of updates, The carriers always abandon existing users when there is an OS update. My Q was stuck in 5.0 forever. My Touch pro will never see 6.5. Apple users have been able to update.

I have not gone with an Iphone for several reasons, mostly economic: I have a $30/month Sprint plan that would cost me $100/month on AT&T or Verizon if I was ever willing to do business with either of these companies.

[jimtravis]

Respect your opinion, and no doubt you have experienced the less than stellar performance you described. Just want to offer a different user experience.

I keep hearing about the extra clicks for WM. I do use an iPod touch to experience the mobile Apple platform (iPhone too feature deficient for my needs), and have found the iPod touch takes as many steps, if not more, than the Touch Pro. If the devces are off, the iPod touch takes at least 3 steps, power button, slide to unlock, and then your selection. If selection is not on first screen, another step or two. One of the reasons I like physical button on a device is the one step to start the desired app. With the Toshiba e830, just press one of the hard buttons, and the app starts even if the device is off. Except for maybe a setting you change once or twice a year, I have found my Touch Pro takes the same, or less strokes than the iPod touch, and my hard buttoned WM PDA's take significantly less steps than the iPod touch.

I like Touch Flow 3D a lot. Also like SPB Shell 3, one of the best, slick interfaces I have seen on a mobile device. For me, SPB Shell 3 is slicker than Apple's. I usually use the hard button on the Touch Pro for scrolling, so inconsistent scroll bar use is not an issue for me.

I did purchase a cradle for the Touch Pro, so when I get home, in the cradle it goes. Battery life not an issue for me, and it is nice that the battery is replaceable on the Touch Pro unlike some other popular devices.

The inconsistent interface for 3rd party apps is something I actually like. After using the iPod touch for awhile, I find it boring that all apps have the same interface. I appreciate others may want a consistent interface, but I like the variety.

I do not receive many calls, but all the calls ring about 4 times before voicemail. I use Sprint, have you contacted your carrier?

My Touch Pro is very stable, and rarely requires a soft reset, and never a hard reset. Maybe a "rogue" 3rd party app is causing your stability problem. I sometimes go more than a month before soft resetting, and then the device is still running, just thought it would be good to reset once in awhile.

Don't use the Facebook app, and I suspect (but don't know) that the reason you cannnot copy/paste with Skyfire is the pages are condensed to reduce bandwidth, and are being served via proxy. Since you can view just about any media with Skyfire - definitely more than any other mobile browser - small price to pay IMO.

I do agree with you about the lack of upgrading. I do not necessarily care if the Touch Pro is ever updated to 6.5. As stable as I find the Touch Pro to be, it would be nice to see an update or two to correct minor glitches, and maybe add a new feature or two.