Does Windows Mobile Still Have a Market Left?

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.marketwatch.com/story/microsofts-mobile-business-faces-tough-questions?pagenumber=1' target='_blank'>http://www.marketwatch.com/story/mi...ns?pagenumber=1</a><br /><br /></div><p><em>"As computing goes mobile thanks to the emergence of more powerful devices, Microsoft Corp. is finding itself increasingly threatened by new rivals -- and some old ones, too. The company's mobile technology has suffered in comparison to both the iPhone, from traditional foe Apple Inc., and Research In Motion Ltd.'s BlackBerry. Meanwhile device makers who have normally been big supporters of Microsoft's mobile operating system software, such as Motorola Corp. and Palm Inc., have been moving toward the use of different technology."</em></p><p>We've already had an <a href="http://www.smartphonethoughts.com/news/show/94220/is-windows-mobile-in-danger-of-becoming-software-plumbing.html" target="_blank">interesting discussion about this topic</a>, but as people look at the mobile market it's going to come up again and again: Microsoft has really dropped the ball in terms of competing in this space. In some ways, this echoes what they did with Windows XP: it was a good product when it launched, but they took their eye off the ball and got lazy - and Vista shipped years late, and missing many of the features it was supposed to have. Similarly, Windows Mobile was a great mobile operating system back in the day - but Microsoft focused on the wrong things, year after year, and now have ended up at the bottom of the marketshare heap. They can do better - and they will do better - but for now, they're going to take some lumps.</p>

[Pony99CA]

Similarly, Windows Mobile was a great mobile operating system back in the day - but Microsoft focused on the wrong things, year after year, and now have ended up at the bottom of the marketshare heap. They can do better - and they will do better - but for now, they're going to take some lumps.
It's been taking lumps for a while now. :D However, it's not really at the bottom of the marketshare heap. With 20 million units shipped last year, I think they were only behind Nokia's Symbian and RIM's BlackBerry.

Where Windows Mobile is hurting is mind share. On sites like this, and even some generic gadget sites, Windows Mobile gets some buzz, but not like the iPhone or even Android and Palm's WebOS seem to.

With luck WM 6.5 will start to change that and WM 7.0 will put Microsoft back in the buzz game.

Steve

[benjimen]

I've been using WM since it first came out as WindowsCE on HP monochrome-screen clamshell devices. I thought it was great then. Part of the trouble now is that WM phones are built on that same OS, which was not initially intended for wireless communications. It's certainly been updated, but at it's core is that same WindowsCE that started it all.

Since the iPhone came out, I've started to get bored -- but stuck it out, thinking something great would come. It still might, but it won't be WM 6.5 -- which means maybe 7 will be the one, but more realistically, 7 won't be completely usable until 7.2 or so -- we're looking at a couple years here. HTC will continue to make great strides at covering up WM and put out some nice devices... but... it'll remain a bit boring.

The first iPhone was of no interest to me; the 2nd 3G one started to get my attention -- I calculated my monthly cost at the AT&T website. Being grandfathered into some fantastic rates with T-Mobile, I couldn't justify the switch. I did take the plunge with the 3GS -- preordered, ported my number over and accepted the possibility that I'd just done something really stupid.

Wow... I had no idea. What a fantastic device. I don't care how much HTC covers up WM, they can't touch this. No locking up; no slowing to a crawl for no apparent reason; no need to research tweaks to try and get the device to behave; no decision on what shell product best makes the device usable -- my iPhone 3GS just works, and elegantly pays attention to little details -- like recalling the volume I last used when the headphones were plugged in -- and returning it to the previous level when I unplug them. All that and I don't dread web browsing with it. WM 7.x will have to be pretty amazing to pry me away from my iPhone.

So yes, I'd have to agree, MS missed the boat with WM by not shifting into high-gear when the iPhone was launched. They've waited far to long and it'll take them forever to catch up -- at least as much as they can at this point.

[emuelle1]

I doubt Windows Mobile will go away anytime soon, but they'll definitely lose marketshare if Microsoft doesn't make some changes. I had 8 Windows Mobile devices, and only two of them had updated operating systems. One cost me $40 from HP, the other was a free update (WM 6.0 to 6.1) from Samsung.

I'm hardly the voice of Windows Mobile consumers, but if MS wants to win back marketshare, they need to stop copying the iPhone's UI and work on some core improvements. They need to work on stability (who wants to reboot a phone 5 or more times a day just to do common tasks like check email?) They also need to work on getting updates out faster and more often. My last WM phone was a Samsung Epix. I bought it in October of '08. Samsung finally got around to rolling out an update in late April or early May of '09, after I'd given up and switched to the iPhone. One of the updates included a fix to allow syncing of Outlook notes, something the darn phone should have been able to do out of the box. I used it for 6 months without being able to sync Outlook notes.

One more thing I love about the iPhone is the seemless switching. Without paying extra for backup software, every time I reset my WM device, I had to reinstall all of my applications and copy all of my data over. I also had to reset all of my device settings, input my mail accounts, etc. I bought an iPod Touch (1st Gen) in 2008. It went through several updates, then I got the iPhone. I still have data and settings from the day that I bought that Touch that have migrated through several OS updates and across to another device.

MS might need to "reboot" Windows Mobile. Like I said, it probably won't go away, but I'm not likely to go back to it anytime soon.

[doc]

While I haven't been using WM as long as Benjimen, I do have to repeat pretty much everything he has stated above. The only difference is I've now switched to WebOS and the Pre.

In the month I've been using my Pre I'm reminded of how great it was to have a smartphone that just works. I have not had to reboot once. And, since I've had the phone it has been automatically updated twice.

On top of this the Pre is pretty fun to use. Sorry MS, PPCThoughts is spot on with this post. You've missed the boat and lost yet another long time WM user.

[Russ Smith]

Well Pony already made my first reaction: " it's not really at the bottom of the market-share heap."

Still, I think Microsoft could do a bit more. First, they could get their name out there. Linksys is now being marketed as "Linksys by Cisco" even though nothing really has changed. If MS could get it's OEMs to say "X1 with Windows Mobile", it could help with the mind-share issue. (Once people realize all the cool devices that start with WM...)

Second, because there is some real competition from the iPhone in particular. Microsoft should devote more R&D resources to speed up development. The more times competitors have to scramble to add features that WM already has, the better for WM. While quietly adding in some "us-too" features, MS should leverage those points where it's still in the lead. One such would be memory and i/o capabilities.

Finally, MS either needs to beef up things like Pocket Word, Excel, Outlook, Media Player and IE or just open the door further for the real alternatives like SoftMaker Office, Opera Mobile, and CorePlayer/Pocket TV. Along with the capabilities of adding hardware like full-sized keyboards and (on some units) screens, WM could become a real laptop replacement OS for low to mid-range needs.

[Vincent Ferrari]

Windows Mobile will never regain its old glory until they adopt software updates.

Google, RIM, and Apple all allow updates on older hardware to the newer OSes. For the most part, with Windows Mobile, you have to buy a new device.

Who wants to buy a new device every time an OS upgrade happens?

I've had WinMo devices from HTC, Audiovox, Toshiba (yep I go way back), Dell, and HP, and despite the infinite promises of firmware updates, I never got one on ANY of the devices when a new version of the OS came out (point-releases not withstanding) and that's a real problem. Not everyone is a geek and not everyone buys a new device at each new OS revision.

Sorry, but that's the big hangup and until that gets fixed, WinMo is gonna keep hurting. They're not dead. Far from it. But Microsoft's mismanagement and undelivered promises on the platform are going to kill it if things don't change.

[rkb]

As a long time fan and developer for Windows Mobile, I've come to the conclusion that Microsoft really doesn't care an awful lot about the advancement of Windows Mobile.

Because they don't see this as "money making" component of their business like their OS and Office products, the growth of Windows Mobile suffers.

Until the leadership at Microsoft begins to put more resources behind Windows Mobile AKA Windows Phone, it will lag behind the likes of the IPhone and Blackberry.

Look at it this way, when Bill gates was in-charge, it was said that he would not allow folks leaving their "Windows Laptops" at home or in the office while folks traveled with their Blackberry's. This to me meant that more emphasis would be put on the mobile platform so that folks would take their Windows Phone with them to be more productive when on the road.

When Mr. Balmer decides that the Windows Phone platform is really important to their business, this is when we'll see the Windows Phone take it's lead on the mobile front. Until then, many of us will continue to drift towards the competition.

[Craig Horlacher]

Windows Mobile has so much potential but I think Microsoft has done 3 things that have really hurt it.

My perspective has been formed over around 12 years of mobile device usage. HP OmniGo 120, Philips Nino 325, Casio E-125, Toshiba E830, Imate Ultimate 6150. I also have a Sony PSP and think this is an amazing media device that's most people have no idea what it's full, built-in, functionality is.

1. Poor hardware support. This is not just Microsoft's fault but a fault of OEM's for releasing devices that don't even support the built in hardware well. Here are some specific examples:
- E830 and 6150, neither can reliable sleep with files open on a storage card. The applicaiton with files open on the storage are will usually crash when you wake it up and try to use the application. It's a known bug but apparently has never been fixed. I was able to fix it with a registry hack on the E830 but I have not been able to fix the same problem on my WinMo61 6150. Imate is clueless. This "bug" should have been a release show-stopper. It's a huge problem for me.
- The E830 came with bluetooth but it's bluetooth stack never supported HID's. Part of the reason I fought to get this thing (it was never released for the US) was so I could use it with a bluetooth keyboard and mouse. That never worked.
- The 6150 has an nVidia GoForce 5500 but *nothing* uses it execpt that it does come with support for the vga out. I finally got a hacked version of TCPMP that does have support for the chipset and that works well but Windows Media Player is still terrible and graphics speed on the device in general is not impressive.
- The 6150 has a microSD slot that doesn't support microSDHC. I'm limited 2GB of storage on what is otherwise a fairly high end device (WinMo 6.1, vga display, 128MB RAM 256MB ROM, WIFI, Bluetooth, hsdpa, 520MHz).

2. There is no good update system or app store. Over the last 10 years you would think that Microsoft could have developed some kind of centralized app store and update system but they haven't. The reason I'm still using Windows Mobile is because of the applications for it. Most people I know with WinMo devices have no clue what software is out there. They think they are limited to the built in apps but windows mobile doesn't even shine unless you get some third party apps. Pocket Informant, Pocket Bible, Resco Photo Viewer, CodeWallet Pro, and Softmaker Office are some of my staples. I feel bad for companies who create apps like these, with much more depth and functionality than I've seen with any iPhone app, and no good way to get it out there. Along with this, and probably more important, it should be easy for users to get updates from the OEM which should include new operating system versions as well as bug fixes.

3. The interface needs to be improved.Touch friendly would be cool but I actually like using a stylus for some things, like minor graphics editing, and hope that doesn't go away. To me, part of the interface problem is not related to "touchability", but more technical. There should be a simple, standard task switcher. The user should be able to close open programs from it and also complete use it without a stylus.

Imate has Winterface available as a free download. Of course HTC has their TouchFlo 3d. At least these do give some touch friendly usage to WinMo. I think it's funny that Microsoft hasn't address this yet other than screen shots of vaporware.

Well, those are my thoughts and opinions. Good luck with your mobile device of choice!

[Reid Kistler]

Some random thoughts on WinMo - and associated or competing devices - a few of which echo previous posts:

1) LIKE using a stylus. In fact, actually HATE using FINGERS to do Anything On The Screen. Accordingly, by default, any device that is NOT "stylus-centric" is simply out of the question.
With the Fuze it is often Convenient to use a finger to answer the phone, and occasionally to dial a number, but much of the time these are handled via bluetooth connection: look ma, no hands! (let alone fingers...)

This, of course, is not a question of "right or wrong," but simply preference. In the end, believe that many - although certainly not all - of the pros / cons of WHATEVER OS / Device / Software ultimately fall back upon "preferences."

2) Enjoy having the option of choosing from a Variety of software applications, available from a variety of sources. Therefore would dislike being forced to choose from a selection of Officially Approved apps.

3) Apple controls the Hardware, the OS, and (most of? all of?) the Applications available for the iPhone. MS develops the OS, but then leaves it up to the device manufacturer to determine suitability / functionality of the hardware, and to the Developer to create & support non-conflicting software.
Apple's approach ensures greater consistency - and conformity - but arguably less 'freedom to choose'; certainly so in terms of Hardware. (Even if the new iPhones may melt in your pocket! :eek:)
The WinMo approach offers a wonderful variety in both devices and software - but also ensures that it will be nearly impossible to avoid some less-then-satisfactory results.

4) Recall MS taking a lot of heat for building into Windows (Desktop) OS a lot of functionality that had been reserved for third party developers in the past. Seems a lot of this controversy has simply blown away (although read something about Win7 being available in Europe WITHOUT IE8 - ??) - and also MS is now making available a number of Free Apps / Applets that you have to DOWNLOAD - as opposed to building them into Windows Desktop.

Wonder whether part of the failure to include certain features into WinMo is due to concern MS might face similar attacks if they try to "control" too much?

Then again, you have the service providers putting their own twist on things - and sometimes insisting that certain capabilities be removed or at least weakened. (FM Radio on original Fuze release? Tethering on new iPhone?)

5) Since doing the ROM update on the Fuze (to the Official New ROM, not one of the "Cooked" ones), the device has been a remarkably stable performer. Unlike my Axim, the Fuze does not seem to be prone to ever-increasing memory usage - although, to be fair, the vastly larger quantity of RAM is certainly a factor here - and "Soft Resets" have been limited to Install / Uninstall an App, or for certain customization settings, as opposed to a several-times-a-week necessity.

6) None of this is to suggest that MS does not face a problematical future with WinMo. The OS is - from a personal perspective - Wonderful for a PDA, Acceptable for a PDA / Phone, but (apparently) Woefully Lacking for a PDA / Phone / Entertainment (Multi-Media) Device, which most of the marketplace seems to have moved toward.

And, YES, would wholeheartedly agree with those who take MS, the various device manufactures, &/or service providers to TASK for failing (in most cases) to provide any opportunity to upgrade to newer releases... :(

None of the available options is PERFECT - if any were, there would simply be no competition left. But, FOR ANY GIVEN INDIVIDUAL, it is certainly true that some device / OS combinations come closer than others... Repeating Vector's comment: Good luck with your mobile device of choice!

[Russ Smith]

A few more thoughts:
I've always thought the Microsoft had the right attitude toward their OS by building a strong, multi-tasking base, a decent GUI, and enough basic features to get things going. The theory seemed to be that any additional functionality that was required could be done by 3rd parties. If Pocket Word isn't everything you need, there's always TextMaker. If Pocket Outlook isn't enough, there's always Pocket Informant. The basics are there and virtually everything is extensible. Even specialty extensions like the FITALY "keyboard" are possible by design, not by kludge. Inter-application messaging, cut-and-paste are also there, from the beginning, by design.

Along with the basic software, Windows Mobile also had considerable hardware support. Adding keyboards, external storage, and even external displays is pretty simple. I can't blame Microsoft when the OEMs choose not to allow certain of these aspects to be fully used.

In addition, there has always been the PC-based method and CAB file method of installing software. An app store may be neat for getting the software once, but if you want to keep a set of software that you install on each successive handheld, PC-based and CAB files are the way to go. Furthermore, most WM apps are buy once, use forever instead of pay for once a month like on some other devices.

Basically, it comes down to this: For most smartphones, especially the iPhone, you get the features the OEM decides to build into the device. With WM devices you can get a lot more because it's not that hard for 3rd parties to add functionality and they don't even have to get permission.

So why do all those other phones sell? I think it's because a lot of people don't think in terms of leveraging apps they might already have to their next device. They might ask about transferring their contacts, but that's the extent of it. Microsoft might do well by not just highlighting some of the neat features of their OS, but also showing how you might have gotten an application in 2000 for your smartphone and might still be using the same app in the WM device you own today.

[oldan]

I'm sensing a theme among respondents. It appears that many have moved on while Microsoft is left standing there, flat-footed with a stylus in hand (well, except for one guy who doesn't like to get his screen dirty).

I'm at this very moment (well, over a couple months actually) debating my options. They are threefold and broadened by the fact that I have a heck-of-an-employee-plan with Sprint and my company uses AT&T. So I can

-- stay with my Touch Diamond (one nice little phone) and keep putting cooked WinMo 6.5 roms (or Android) on it until the cows come home.

-- get a shiny new Palm Pre

-- ask my company to give me an AT&T account and buy my own iPHone.

Total cash outlay/differential for me is negligible, one time charge of $200. So what I'm aiming for is usability and features.

Note that NONE of the options above involve buying NEW Windows Mobile Hardware. I won't do that until I see that it's worth doing. I'd even boot Android with Haret before I'd buy a new WinMo phone.

[Kris Kumar]

Windows Mobile is like driving stick, and iPhone is like driving automatic.

Just like the cars, most people prefer automatic. Windows Mobile will have to do a lot to win back the lost crowd.

I am surprised that WinMo cannot provide a better experience for things that we take for granted in 2008. Two things that come to mind are browsing and connecting to the WiFi network (especially the kind that you have at work with certificates). And what is with that smallish X or OK button in the top right corner, not at all finger friendly (how can they make menus bigger and not take care of that..duh).

WinMo 6.5 (once it comes out) has the potential to show that MSFT has some staying power. But WinMo 7 better come out fast and pack a punch.

[Don Tolson]

I tend to agree with Russ. I think MS has the right idea in staying out of the UI business and sticking with building a solid platform for developers and industry-types to work with.

UI tends to be a very personal thing, and everyone has an opinion about what works best for them. Take me for example. I've tried Pocket Informant four times, and I still can't get my head around it, even though it constantly gets rave reviews from practically every other reviewer in the market. To me, it's just too busy and complicated.

My point is, no matter what UI Microsoft built, someone would have a complaint about it, and some other developer, like HTC, Toshiba, or Sony-Ericcson would have what they consider to be a better solution. Personally, I REALLY like what HTC is doing with Touch Flo. But I haven't had a chance to play with the UI on the Toshiba or S-E units yet. I absolutely HATE what RIM is doing on the Blackberries. But that's just me.

MS, you're on the right track. Stick to building a solid O/S that supports all the best features of the current and future capabilities of the phones. Leave the UI to the various manufacturers/vendors to duke it out.

[benjimen]

Some random thoughts on WinMo - and associated or competing devices - a few of which echo previous posts {BLAH BLAH BLAH}

Wow... long post... fell asleep before the end :D

[benjimen]

Windows Mobile is like driving stick, and iPhone is like driving automatic...

I'd say until they do something better, WM is like driving a horse & buggy -- they really let themselves be left in the dust... Doesn't mean they won't someday catch up, but they should've acted sooner.

[benjimen]

A few more thoughts:
So why do all those other phones sell? I think it's because a lot of people don't think in terms of leveraging apps they might already have to their next device. They might ask about transferring their contacts, but that's the extent of it. Microsoft might do well by not just highlighting some of the neat features of their OS, but also showing how you might have gotten an application in 2000 for your smartphone and might still be using the same app in the WM device you own today.

Huh...? Have you ever used an iPhone? Configured it with iTunes? At approaching 60,000 apps why would you infer that people aren't interested in holding onto what they've purchased? You don't sound familiar with use of an iPhone.

Apps are stored in iTunes, the install files are all listed there. If you purchase, or download a free app on your device it syncs the install file to your desktop version of iTunes. Within iTunes you select the option to 'backup store purchases to disc' and you have a backup-backup of your apps. A DVD can hold a ton of apps.

A more accurate summary of the situation would be that iPhone users don't have to think about restoring their apps to a new iPhone, they just click a mouse button ;)

[Pony99CA]

Wow... long post... fell asleep before the end :D
We don't care about your ADHD. Get some Ritalin and maybe you can focus. :p

Steve

[Pony99CA]

Windows Mobile is like driving stick, and iPhone is like driving automatic.

Just like the cars, most people prefer automatic. Windows Mobile will have to do a lot to win back the lost crowd.
Just remember that most enthusiasts prefer driving sticks. ;)

I am surprised that WinMo cannot provide a better experience for things that we take for granted in 2008. Two things that come to mind are browsing and connecting to the WiFi network (especially the kind that you have at work with certificates). And what is with that smallish X or OK button in the top right corner, not at all finger friendly (how can they make menus bigger and not take care of that..duh).
I've been operating my Omnia (which has no softkey or OK buttons) pretty much with my fingers since I got it 3+ months ago. Occasionally I'll use a stylus, and I do miss certain things with my fingers (icons in the title bar, scroll bars in drop-down lists, etc.), but it is possible.

As far as Windows Mobile improvements go, check out my Windows Mobile New Year's Resolutions (http://thoughts.svpocketpc.com#THOUGHT_WM7_RESOLUTIONS). I have lots of ideas to improve the Windows Mobile experience.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

I tend to agree with Russ. I think MS has the right idea in staying out of the UI business and sticking with building a solid platform for developers and industry-types to work with.
That's good in theory if the platform were solid. However, how many times have you heard about Windows Mobile locking up or having other issues (like alarms not triggering)? Some of the locking up might be attributable to software (my Omnia occasionally locks up when my Redfly disconnects, so that could be a Redfly driver issue), but users won't care.

And Microsoft makes some stupid decisions at times, too. When they finally released Office Mobile for the Smartphone, they made it so that you couldn't create new documents; you could only edit existing ones. Programmers created a hack for that, or you could just keep blank files to "edit" and save them as new files, but why should you have to?

Steve

[Pony99CA]

Touch friendly would be cool but I actually like using a stylus for some things, like minor graphics editing, and hope that doesn't go away.
Me, too. In fact, I wrote my Why Windows Mobile Needs A Stylus (http://thoughts.svpocketpc.com#THOUGHT_STYLUS_VS_FINGERS) editorial for just that reason. ;)

To me, part of the interface problem is not related to "touchability", but more technical. There should be a simple, standard task switcher. The user should be able to close open programs from it and also complete use it without a stylus.
You lost me on that one. WM 6.1 has a Task switcher. I mapped it to the touch-and-hold function of my Omnia's camera button. My Omnia also includes a mini-task manager that you activate with a swipe that's sort of an Alt+Tab system that brings up a small window with icons of the running programs (but I think that's a Samsung feature, not standard in WM).

Steve

[Deslock]

Windows Mobile is like driving stick, and iPhone is like driving automatic.
I understand your metaphor, but as someone who hates automatics but enjoys using the iPhone, I'm gonna respond with a different perspective. For the most part, I can open the hood and tweak an iPhone just like I could PPC/WinMo devices. The difference is that with WinMo, I had to pull over every few miles not to tinker, but to repair.

Also, since you brought up cars here, the iPhone's steering is precise, it has a smooth short-throw 6MT, and throttle response is excellent. I can't add a roof rack, but I can fit a lot in the trunk. There are oodles of accessories and options available too. One of the downsides is that there are only a couple models available, though they're well designed :)

It's been taking lumps for a while now. :D However, it's not really at the bottom of the marketshare heap. With 20 million units shipped last year, I think they were only behind Nokia's Symbian and RIM's BlackBerry.
I've asked this before, but no one knew the answer. How many of the 20M WinMo units were touchscreen devices?

As far as the thread's initial question goes, the iPhone's most significant feature from beginning was one seldom mentioned: the capacitance touchscreen. Without it, Apple couldn't have implemented such an effective interface. It was clear two years ago that Microsoft would need to completely overhaul WinMo and ditch the resistive screen to compete in the consumer market, and with the introduction of Android and WebOS, that's even more obvious. I suspect that Microsoft will fix the interface (perhaps providing some sort of legacy support via a capacitance stylus while switching to a finger-centric approach), though I'm not sure how some of WinMo's other issues will be addressed (such as the current PITA processes for installing apps and restoring from backup).

[benjimen]

...For the most part, I can open the hood and tweak an iPhone just like I could PPC/WinMo devices. The difference is that with WinMo, I had to pull over every few miles not to tinker, but to repair.

Also, since you brought up cars here, the iPhone's steering is precise, it has a smooth short-throw 6MT, and throttle response is excellent. I can't add a roof rack, but I can fit a lot in the trunk. There are oodles of accessories and options available too. One of the downsides is that there are only a couple models available, though they're well designed :)


So clever (and so true)

[oldan]

One of the downsides [of the iPhone] is that there are only a couple models available, though they're well designed

I appreciate the design too, but I would like to mention the one thing I see as the real killer, iTunes.

The only time my HTC Touch Diamond comes close to a USB cable is to charge the batter (which is unfortunately too often) or to update a ROM. I never, ever sync with the local PC. I do not want to sync to my local PC. I haven't sync'ed with a PC for years.

I set my WinMo phones up to sync with Exchange over the air and download apps over the air and pull my music and even ('gasp!') movies over the air. I want to be as independent of a static desktop device as possible. Windows Mobile lets me do that. With the iPhone, I need to have a home base... with iTunes. No Linux or FreeBSD either. My choices are Windows or OSX.

[karen]

I appreciate the design too, but I would like to mention the one thing I see as the real killer, iTunes.

The only time my HTC Touch Diamond comes close to a USB cable is to charge the batter (which is unfortunately too often) or to update a ROM. I never, ever sync with the local PC. I do not want to sync to my local PC. I haven't sync'ed with a PC for years.


I pretty much use USB only to charge my iPod Touch.


I set my WinMo phones up to sync with Exchange over the air and download apps over the air and pull my music and even ('gasp!') movies over the air.


That describes my over the air usage of my iPod Touch. I'm assuming that the iPhone works the same way. Mail, contacts, calendar all come via Exchange. I have a third party app for syncing my tasks.

For music I've ripped from my own CDs, yes, I do have to sync via cable. But since I have plenty of room on my Touch for this, I don't do it that often. Since I charge my Touch while it is next to my PC, my music syncs while it charging. But I haven't purchase a physical CD in over a year. It's all online now. The only CDs I rip are the ones sent to me for review. I wish the publishers could send me an iTunes code instead.

The other things I sync via cable are my Audible.com purchased items. Those are remnant form my WM days. I don't bother syncing them to my WM phone any longer. If I had purchased via iTunes, I could download them over the air, too. There may be a way to do that; I just haven't bothered to research that.

The final thing that I haven't figured out if it is possible is to get my subscribed podcasts over the air. I can download all I want manually, but to get my Touch loaded up automatically, I do have to sync.


I want to be as independent of a static desktop device as possible. Windows Mobile lets me do that. With the iPhone, I need to have a home base... with iTunes. No Linux or FreeBSD either. My choices are Windows or OSX.


I do wish there was less need for being hooked to my computer and I'm just waiting on the day for the Apple folks to realize it is 2009 and many gadget freaks (and even normal people :) ) use more than one computer. The inability to sync the same library to more than one computer needs to be fixed.

But overall, the syncing thing isn't so bad, as I don't need to do every day. Just ocassionally and ad hoc. Heck, even MS got rid of Wifi syncing and I never figured that one out.

[karen]

This will be the first year that I will not buy a WM device. I've been off contract with Telus for about 6 months. They just don't offer (or stock) WM Pro phones any more. I think they have one or two that are recent. Both have tiny, low resolution screens.

I realize that in the US there are some decent offerings, but here the Canadian providers have pretty much abandoned the WM Pro phones with keypads.

When you walk into a Telus store, the push Blackberries like crazy. I've had more than one sales person tell me that they just didn't want to sell me a WM phone; that I'd be really unhappy with it.

When I tell them that I'm looking for a touch screen phone that runs WM, they tell me there is no such thing. Then when I push back, they point me to the P4000, which is my current phone. How many years old is that? And they don't stock them; they have to be special ordered. And therefore none of their in store promotions apply.

Then it's back to the BB. Usually they push the Storm or the Curve. AFAIK, I can't remote into a server using those.

I think what MS got wrong, especially in Canada, is cow-towing to the carriers. Can you imagine Apple agreeing to have an iPhone in Canada that:



Has Wifi blocked?
Has 30MB / month on their unlimited plan?
Has a screen that is 60% the size of the screens in the US and the rest of the world, with a much lower resolution?

I do understand that to get a phone into the hands of consumers, MS is in a real bind: they must get their OS on a 3rd party hardware device that then must be sold to a carrier who has all the clout in deciding what features a consumer is allowed to have. Apple can control the HW, the SW, and the OS. Then they have the sex appeal that MS can't seem to muster. That combined ownership of the experience is why Apple can constrain carriers (Rogers in Canada, AT&T in US). MS just doesn't have that weight.

For me, it's all about the screen and the browser, today. I can't get a decent screen (size or resolution) in Canada, nor does WM have a decent browser. So it's just painful to use compared to my Touch.

Maybe next year or the year after WM will catch up. But to see so many diehard WM fans moving to other devices....well, I think I'm moving on with them.

K

[Don Tolson]

For me, it's all about the screen and the browser, today. I can't get a decent screen (size or resolution) in Canada, nor does WM have a decent browser. So it's just painful to use compared to my Touch .

Maybe next year or the year after WM will catch up. But to see so many diehard WM fans moving to other devices....well, I think I'm moving on with them.

K
I understand the problem in Canada with such a 'closed' market. I understand you're with Telus at the moment, but if you go with Rogers, you get a few more 'options' since you can purchase any GSM phone you like and fire it up just by inserting the SIM card.

I was running a HTC Kaiser/Tilt for about a year, and now own a Raphael/Touch Pro/Fuze. Both work flawlessly on the Rogers network. Right now, I'm test driving a Touch Diamond 2, but unfortunately, it's from the UK, so it won't do 3G, but everything else works like a dream.

There are CDMA unlocked phones available which technically should work on Telus, but I don't know if they 'lock' the network to only use their phones. Unfortunately, most of the store techs I've met only know the products from their vendors. Not much about the outside world.

[maxnix]

Well, now that the iPhoney has almost caught up to Windows Mobile 2003, time to consider how much we could do with a 6 year old operating system that still cannot be done with the iPhoney. Phones are not made to be fingered incessantly, they are made to be used by voice commands when one is doing something else, like driving or navigating, or looking at a document that was attached to an email. What, still no attachments nor multitsking on iPhoney? Hope you never have to change the battery on a busy day, either!

Steve Jobs is a masterful marketer and the bulk of American consumers are idiots. MS needs to market better.

Hopefully MS will maintain an open for development friendly platform while realizing what works on the desktop is not what works for a phone, even a business phone. Voice Recognition comptence is paramount, and MS has squandered their head start with no enhancements recently. They surely have the resources as evidenced by their collaboration with FoMoCo.

[karen]

Telus and Bell have both been saying that they will have a GSM network in place prior to the 2012 Olympics, maybe even next year. I'm not sure I'm willing to wait for them.

I really, really, really do not want to switch to Rogers. But I'm thinking I'm being forced to do so. So I'll do that for now, then wait to see what Telus comes up with in a year or so. I'll have to sign a 3 year contract with Rogers, but I'm willing to do that for a better, more usable experience.

I once talked to a Telus sales person in Calgary who was an active member here at PPCTs, so at least he knew what I was asking when I asked about some technical issues with the newest phones. So some sales people are here.

But last night my experience at a Rogers store was less pleasing. It was hard to get any service. The sales guy we talked to was a real jerk. Said he couldn't answer any questions about data plans because they aren't trained in that stuff at the store. They can't really answer any questions.

He said that I could try to call Rogers corporate to get my questions aswered, but that the couldn't sell me a phone. I wonder if he's actually heard of the web yet....

My last experience with Rogers was when cell phones were new, I'll admit. But even then their customer experience was lacking. My bank manager called the police to get them to stop repeatedly fraudulently billing my account for a defective phone that had been returned. I even had a receipt for the return, plus a letter from a VP at corporate. Still, they'd bill my CC several times a week trying to get the charge to stick. The manager was revsersing the charges everytime they tried. Once the police and MC were involved, they slowed down to just once a month. After a few months they finally gave up.

You can see why, even though my travel means that I could really benefit from having a GSM phone I've resisted that all these years. I've even contemplated getting a US phone and account and paying roaming for the tiny amount of use that I have here in Canada. Unfortunately, the US carriers don't seem to have any roaming packages to cut the cost of being a world-savvy chick.

But I can't keep using a pretend browser. So much of what I do has moved to the browser world. I've tried 3rd party browsers and they crawl compared to Safari on an iPhone/Touch.

I would be right back to a WM phone if a device were offered that had a high resolution screen with a real browser. If MS could make that happen, I think the ability to use a mem card and having a swappable battery would be a killer in the marketplace. Oh, and it needs to support Wifi, celluar, BT, and GPS. I know how carriers and HW vendors love to pick a couple and drop the rest, but I think the market had decided this one. Vendors who pretend it hasn't are getting less market share.

[Dyvim]

or looking at a document that was attached to an email. What, still no attachments nor multitsking on iPhoney?
Q: In summer '07, which OS supported viewing Word 2007 and Excel 2007 documents: iPhone OS 1 or WM 6?

A: iPhone OS 1

iPhone has supported viewing Office document email attachments since day 1- and actually did (in many cases still does) a better job of it than WM (better rendering). Of course, if you need to edit said docs, that's another story but in probably 99 out of 100 cases, real world users only need to view their Office docs on their phones not edit them.

Steve Jobs is a masterful marketer and the bulk of American consumers are idiots. MS needs to market better.
If you and MS close your eyes and keep telling yourselves that, maybe the iPhone (and RIM, Android, etc.) will just go away...

Obviously you're a WM fan- good for you- everyone has a different device which is right for them, but to pretend that the iPhone's success is strictly (or even in large part) due to the stupidity/gullibility of Apple's customers is just plain silly.

[Craig Horlacher]

Me, too. In fact, I wrote my Why Windows Mobile Needs A Stylus (http://thoughts.svpocketpc.com#THOUGHT_STYLUS_VS_FINGERS) editorial for just that reason. ;)


You lost me on that one. WM 6.1 has a Task switcher. I mapped it to the touch-and-hold function of my Omnia's camera button. My Omnia also includes a mini-task manager that you activate with a swipe that's sort of an Alt+Tab system that brings up a small window with icons of the running programs (but I think that's a Samsung feature, not standard in WM).

Steve
Opps, I thought that was from Imate, not a standard part of WinMo 6.1. That is a decent task manager. I still think MS should build in a nice task switcher with easy access like you talk about with your Omnia. Mapping the Task Manager to a button is an option as you say.

[Don Tolson]

Telus and Bell have both been saying that they will have a GSM network in place prior to the 2012 Olympics, maybe even next year. I'm not sure I'm willing to wait for them.

They've been saying this for at least the last 3 years. I've heard nothing, nor seen anything about them heavily investing in new infrastructure, so I wouldn't hold my breath. Unless they're planning to buy network time from Rogers:D



But last night my experience at a Rogers store was less pleasing. It was hard to get any service. The sales guy we talked to was a real jerk. Said he couldn't answer any questions about data plans because they aren't trained in that stuff at the store. They can't really answer any questions.

He said that I could try to call Rogers corporate to get my questions answered, but that the couldn't sell me a phone. I wonder if he's actually heard of the web yet....Yes, as I mentioned, the level of experience at the stores tends to be somewhat 'diversified'. Unfortunately now, most are just franchises, rather than actual Rogers employees. I think your best bet is to call Rogers directly. That's where I've had my best successes and where I get the best service. (mind you, I've been with them for years, so I get 'special treatment').


You can see why, even though my travel means that I could really benefit from having a GSM phone I've resisted that all these years. I've even contemplated getting a US phone and account and paying roaming for the tiny amount of use that I have here in Canada. Unfortunately, the US carriers don't seem to have any roaming packages to cut the cost of being a world-savvy chick.

But I can't keep using a pretend browser. So much of what I do has moved to the browser world. I've tried 3rd party browsers and they crawl compared to Safari on an iPhone/Touch.

I would be right back to a WM phone if a device were offered that had a high resolution screen with a real browser. If MS could make that happen, I think the ability to use a mem card and having a swappable battery would be a killer in the marketplace. Oh, and it needs to support Wifi, celluar, BT, and GPS. I know how carriers and HW vendors love to pick a couple and drop the rest, but I think the market had decided this one. Vendors who pretend it hasn't are getting less market share.Well, I'm currently running an HTC Touch Pro/Fuze from the US, with a custom built WM6.5 ROM. I'm not so hot on the new WM6.5 interface (I like HTC's TouchFlo better), but the IE provided in 6.5 is WAY better, faster, and more touch friendly than before, and I think it works better and is more stable than the current version of Opera.

[Menneisyys]

2) Enjoy having the option of choosing from a Variety of software applications, available from a variety of sources. Therefore would dislike being forced to choose from a selection of Officially Approved apps.



Agreed. Neither would I welcome as restricted an AppStore as that of Apple, making it a MUST to jailbreak my iPhone.

(Fortunately, even with MS' appstore, you won't need to "crack" future WM devices, unlike those of Apple. I'd just welcome an Appstore that has all the emulators etc. in a cerntral repository with all the automatic upgrade notification goodies and not having to check for upgrades myself, as is the case with non-Appstore-based solutions.)

[Menneisyys]

I've asked this before, but no one knew the answer. How many of the 20M WinMo units were touchscreen devices?



I don't have the sales numbers at hand,but I'd say, based on the very low popularity of WinMo Standard (the number of posts in WinMo Standard forums as opposed to WinMo Pro / Classic), the vast majority - around 95%?

[Deslock]

I don't have the sales numbers at hand,but I'd say, based on the very low popularity of WinMo Standard (the number of posts in WinMo Standard forums as opposed to WinMo Pro / Classic), the vast majority - around 95%?

I suspect it's lower than that because WinMo standard is intended for cheap, high volume phones. Also, I don't think that the number of posts at this site is necessarily an accurate indicator (since most people who purchase non-touchscreen phones are not enthusiasts who'd go to a site like this).

Still, thanks for the reply... it's strange that no one knows the answer to this or has bothered to ask Microsoft.

[Phillip Dyson]

I suspect it's lower than that because WinMo standard is intended for cheap, high volume phones. Also, I don't think that the number of posts at this site is necessarily an accurate indicator (since most people who purchase non-touchscreen phones are not enthusiasts who'd go to a site like this).

Still, thanks for the reply... it's strange that no one knows the answer to this or has bothered to ask Microsoft.

You may be correct about the purpose of Standard, however I can say that my Samsung Jack is probably the useful and stable phone that I've every used. And up until now I've always WM Pro (since Ipaq 3600). Granted I've always had an Audiovox, Startrk, or Pantech Duo as a backup

I am curious as to why the percentage of their 20m is relavant to this topic or success of WM. They are all licenses at the end of the day. Is your point that only WM Pro devices are competing against Apple?

Personally I think the Standard phones should be put up against Blackberry devices more often. Apps seems to be RIM's achilles heel but no one every states that there are plenty of good apps for WM Standard.

[Deslock]

I am curious as to why the percentage of their 20m is relavant to this topic or success of WM. They are all licenses at the end of the day. Is your point that only WM Pro devices are competing against Apple?
Pony99CA brought up that 20M WM handsets had sold. I'm curious what the breakdown is because WM standard and pro are arguably in different market segments and (for the most part) have separate sets of applications.

[doogald]

I could swear that I read somewhere that the breakdown was approximately 14 million Pro, 6 million Standard, but I could be mis-remembering.