This is Why People Say Android is Half Baked [Archive]

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Jon Westfall

05-10-2009, 01:00 AM

Maybe it's because I am a geek that I just accept that things I want to work will not always do so. Maybe it's because I'm forgiving of this that I don't often rant about it. But here is one issue that I need to bring up to highlight why companies aren't flocking away from Windows Mobile to a platform such as Android.One thing I really liked about my G1 when I got it was the fact I could use Google Reader to catch up on my headlines while on the go. The Webkit browser seemed to work much better than any other mobile browser I'd used, and I was happy with it. But recently, I've found that when I hit "Mark these items as read", they don't get marked. They just reload again when pulling the next 15 items (Which are just the same 15 items I've seen before). I thought this may just be me, until I found <a href="http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Google+Mobile/thread?tid=63bb8a9fe64099e5&hl=en" target="_blank">others</a> <a href="http://groups.google.com/group/google-reader-troubleshoot/browse_thread/thread/449fd7bb5d1a5f84/9bbf6afed0171f30?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q="google+reader"+"android"+"mark+as+read"&pli=1" target="_blank">reporting</a> the <a href="http://groups.google.com/group/google-reader-troubleshoot/tree/browse_frm/thread/95001cfb54a1b058/ee52becdb8c7d61e?_done=/group/google-reader-troubleshoot/browse_frm/thread/95001cfb54a1b058/ee52becdb8c7d61e?tvc=1&fwc=1&&tvc=1&fwc=1" target="_blank">same</a> <a href="http://modmygphone.com/forums/showpost.php?s=26afaec7134de892cda9fa76eac4d65d&p=64901&postcount=6" target="_blank">problem</a>. Apparently big G changed something around mid-March that broke the web interface "mark all these items as read" button. The best I can tell, this issue has been around now for about 1 1/2 months, and Google's only response has been "We're working on it".So a Google-driven OS is having problems with a Google product and the best users get is "We're working on it..." and effectively a mobile outage of what some would consider a mission critical application. This doesn't bode well for Google, cloud computing, or Android. And it's one reason people stay with Windows Mobile.WinMo may not be the prettiest, but I'm having a really hard time remembering the last time it didn't work with a critical MS application because MS changed the application, but left the mobile users stranded.

RogueSpear

05-10-2009, 02:09 AM

efjay

05-10-2009, 03:10 AM

ActiveSync would probably be the most prominent for me.

Havent had any issues with Activesync in years of owning a WM device.

Dyvim

05-10-2009, 03:11 AM

I remember when MS released a new version of Office (2007) with new document formats (.docx etc) and a new version of WM (6) and WM couldn't read the new Office format documents. Does that count? I think many would consider Office much more mission critical than Google Reader. And to add insult to injury, at the same time, the newly launched iPhone could view Office 2007 Word and Excel files!

BTW, love Google Reader's web interface on the iPhone's WebKit-based browser.

whydidnt

05-10-2009, 03:21 AM

I seem to recall Microsoft releasing a Major OS (Vista) without baking in sync support for their WM devices, that had historically depended upon desktop sync.

Microsoft has historically ignored Windows Mobile and how it integrates into the whole MS eco-system. Up until very recently, it was difficult to even get full Windows Mobile Live support on many phones. While I'm sure it's frustrating that Google hasn't addressed this, it's quite a stretch to hold Microsoft up as an example of how things should be in this regard. Many of us have lamented for years how Microsoft has done an AWFUL job integrating it's many offerings with Windows Mobile.

JesterMania

05-10-2009, 03:29 AM

I remember when MS released a new version of Office (2007) with new document formats (.docx etc) and a new version of WM (6) and WM couldn't read the new Office format documents. Does that count?

It wouldn't count if the Office found in WM6 was not supposed to read Office 2007 in the first place (i.e. feature not implemented). Now if it was supposed to, but didn't work (i.e. feature is broken - as in Google Reader), then that's a problem.

While on Google's other products, I keep getting errors with their Google Docs product whereby "ghost" files would be left over - files that you mark to be deleted, but can't. After searching and trying a number of work-arounds, this seems like a problem from a while back that hasn't been resolved yet.

What I really don't like about Google's mentality is the impression their products are never "finished". Take GMail for example - how long has it been in "beta"? If it's truly beta, then very sad it's been in that state for this many years. Otherwise, I read "beta" as a sign that the company is lacking dedication in supporting this product.

The impression I get with MS is that their products are faulty and far from perfect, but I always get the sense of support and a more-or-less finalized product (okay, Vista doesn't quite count :)). Google's is always in beta, being developed, etc. - not what corporations are looking for.

efjay

05-10-2009, 12:40 PM

What exactly is wrong with Vista? I have been using it for months now on a laptop and have no problems whatsoever, second laptop also has no problem yet it seems Vista is always being maligned. I have no weird crashes, its fast and has some nice features over XP so why is it continually being criticised? Is it really, as I think is the real reason, just the case that people have an underlying, latent hostility towards anything from Microsoft?

Fritzly

05-10-2009, 12:49 PM

Is it really, as I think is the real reason, just the case that people have an underlying, latent hostility towards anything from Microsoft?

Maybe it happens because other people experience with Vista is not as stellar as yours?
Vista SP 2 is OK but it is not something that makes me say "Wow!".
It is just a phenomenon of different opinions; I really do not see the need to resuscitate Joseph Mc Carthy.

Ed Hansberry

05-10-2009, 02:06 PM

WinMo may not be the prettiest, but I'm having a really hard time remembering the last time it didn't work with a critical MS application because MS changed the application, but left the mobile users stranded.

three features I can think off off the top of my head.

1) Windows Mobile Device Center - how much did AS do that WMDC doesn't? Backups, conflict resolution?
2) When Connection Mangler came out in 2002, it destroyed VPN connections unless you had a proxy server. Once connected to a VPN connection through "work" anytime your device tries to make a regular internet connection (POP3 email check for example) the VPN drops. Ackowledged as a problem in 2002, still unresolved in Wm6.1
3) In WinMo 5, it was very difficult to upgrade apps. Installers would routinely fail. you had to often manually uninstall the app first (erasing your preferences) and then install the update, which often meant reregistering as well. this was fixed in WinMo 6.0, and possibly in an AKU in 5.0, but few carriers/OEMs gave out that AKU to existing owners.

MS has had its share of making changes and leaving the users high and dry.

SteveHoward999

05-10-2009, 03:18 PM

What exactly is wrong with Vista? I have been using it for months now on a laptop and have no problems whatsoever, second laptop also has no problem yet it seems Vista is always being maligned.

I've been using Vista since it was in beta - so for about 3 years or maybe more. I agree with you - it works great for me. Many fewer problems than XP, and a loads of great features that I cannot live without.

Vista is victim to a whole heap of sheep believing and perpetuating the woes of a few without ever even trying it for themselves. IMHO ... :-)

Jon Westfall

05-10-2009, 09:29 PM

three features I can think off off the top of my head.

1) Windows Mobile Device Center - how much did AS do that WMDC doesn't? Backups, conflict resolution?

Missing features aren't the same as broken features!

2) When Connection Mangler came out in 2002, it destroyed VPN connections unless you had a proxy server. Once connected to a VPN connection through "work" anytime your device tries to make a regular internet connection (POP3 email check for example) the VPN drops. Ackowledged as a problem in 2002, still unresolved in Wm6.1

Undoubtably a bug in Windows Mobile, but not a case of Windows Mobile and Windows on the desktop not working properly together. Or a case of WinMo not being able to connect to a cloud service such as MSN Messenger.

3) In WinMo 5, it was very difficult to upgrade apps. Installers would routinely fail. you had to often manually uninstall the app first (erasing your preferences) and then install the update, which often meant reregistering as well. this was fixed in WinMo 6.0, and possibly in an AKU in 5.0, but few carriers/OEMs gave out that AKU to existing owners.

MS has had its share of making changes and leaving the users high and dry.

Another pain - but another device bug or "feature" of Windows Mobile. Not a change on a cloud platform that broke the mobile experience.

Which I guess is my real rant: Google can change the cloud, break their own apps compatibility, and tell users "uh, sorry" with nothing more. MS would never be able to get away with that.

doogald

05-11-2009, 03:03 AM

virain

05-11-2009, 07:45 AM

Microsoft Money for Mobile?

MS abandant this long ago. My guess, give the road to independent Devs. SPB did a good job with it. BTW, Is it me, or it looks like MS dropping MOney all together, including desktop edition?

Ed Hansberry

05-11-2009, 12:04 PM

Vista is victim to a whole heap of sheep believing and perpetuating the woes of a few without ever even trying it for themselves. IMHO ... :-)

I second that. I am, however, very anxious to get off of Vista and move to Windows 7 when it releases. I've been on the beta for my netbook for a few months and plan to reformat and install the RC this coming weekend, but I'm holding off on my work PCs and other home PCs until it goes gold.

gorkon

05-11-2009, 12:09 PM

WinMo may not be the prettiest, but I'm having a really hard time remembering the last time it didn't work with a critical MS application because MS changed the application, but left the mobile users stranded.

I don't blame this on Google. I blame this on T-Mobile and Google. I bet this problem is fixed by the end of the month thanks to the cupcake update.

What I think has happened here is the Google Reader devs were ready before Cupcake was ready and thus broke Reader on the G1.

Incidentally, Google Reader as a whole has been a bit weird lately. For example, on my G1, I DID mark items as being read and they did not show back up on the phone, but when I got to my desk at work, i had to remark most of what I marked read on the phone. So, it's not JUST the phone.

One thing that has NEVER broke yet has been Gmail or contact synchronization. This has always worked fantastically for me. NO MORE activestync! Microsoft should make it so non corporate customers can sync to Hotmail OTA.

Ed Hansberry

05-11-2009, 12:10 PM

Missing features aren't the same as broken features!
Agreed, which is why I mentioned the three things that I did. All three worked until MS broke them in a subsequent release.

stlbud

05-11-2009, 12:48 PM

What about the Daylight Savings patch for Windows Mobile. It never did work right for WiMo 2003 and was never fixed. And worse, their second attempt failed.

I'm not saying Google is any better than Microsoft. I'm just saying that each company has their priorities and daylight savings wasn't one Microsoft was concerned about.

David Tucker

05-11-2009, 02:45 PM

I second that. I am, however, very anxious to get off of Vista and move to Windows 7 when it releases. I've been on the beta for my netbook for a few months and plan to reformat and install the RC this coming weekend, but I'm holding off on my work PCs and other home PCs until it goes gold.

I was going to hold off too but after installing RC1 on my netbook last week and knowing it will be around for a year...I'm just going to install it on all my machines.

David Tucker

05-11-2009, 02:52 PM

virain

05-11-2009, 03:47 PM

I have to say that havng used Android for the past 6 months...I completely disagree. I do think they need to fix the issue you discovered but that's one bug in a very new OS that overall works incredibly well. Especially since I don't think the bug you've found is what I'd call "mission critical".

Windows Mobile is far more mature than Android but I find in my day to day usage that Android outperforms WinMo in most areas.

I was one of the first to get G1, and I have to say that it is not even half baked! It is pretty raw. The bug that is discribed here is one of many. I don't want to start a new tread on Android here, but my point is, that there's certain bais against MS. Its products are put under microscope, some claims completely unfounded, take it WM, Vista, Office, etc. And while you so easy forgive Google, or Apple for that, MS behind is get ripped apart. Maybe it is just atrend started by Apple's advertising compain with Mac vs. PC, or maybe it just an army of drones, without their own opinion, knowledge and experience ready to smear and distory anything that is beiond their understanding. Here's a "SHINY" example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA&feature=fvst

David Tucker

05-11-2009, 04:04 PM

I have nothing to forgive Android for though. I didn't know of the RSS issue until it was raised here. And can't think of another problem I've had. Meanwhile I've used WinMo since PocketPC 2002 and while I've always liked it...the devices perform horribly today.

I'm sorry RSS doesn't work for you...but my T-Mobile Wing had a hard time answering the phone much of the time. I'm going to throw it out there that a phone that has a problem with RSS is not as bad off as a phone that has a problem being a phone.

I would be interested to know what other problems you've had with Android.

burtcom

05-11-2009, 05:29 PM

Havent had any issues with Activesync in years of owning a WM device.

When I had one device syncing with one computer, I didn't have any issues either :)

But now that I'm syncing my phone with Work and Home PCs...

efjay

05-11-2009, 06:45 PM

David Tucker

05-11-2009, 07:17 PM

efjay

05-11-2009, 08:02 PM

Any of them. I wanted a Fuze and went into the store to play with them I couldn't believe that even now the visual effects on the device lagged as much as they did. I had an MDA & Wing which were subpar. I've done app development for them as well and we used a variety of different devices before settling on the 6700 and eventually moving the 6800. We had a pretty heavy app, but the devices weren't doing us any favors.

I wouldnt be judging WM performance by looking at devices like the MDA or Wing, even the 6800 as they all have 64MB of memory and on 2 devices only a 200MHz processor which doesnt bode well for speedy performance. And even though you found the Fuze to be lacking (which is backed up in some reviews)I still wouldnt surmise that that level of performance applies to all WM devices available today.

David Tucker

05-11-2009, 08:10 PM

The Fuze was supposed to be the best. When I went to go look at the Xperia at Sony style, they told me they were no longer in the store (this was when they first came out) and they had been taken back for reasons unknown. The SS employee told me he felt it was because of the poor performance, also in the reviews.

I've always liked WinMo and its ancestors, but it has not handled the phone very well. I think there's just too much going on that it wasn't originally designed for. It just needs an overhaul.

Not only that but I think I spent $180 to get my G1. The WinMo devices I wanted were $400 and up. That was just too much to pay for what I felt was a consistent issue of performance. I keep my eye on WinMo in case I should want to come back but as Android gets better and better it makes Microsoft's job harder.

efjay

05-11-2009, 08:50 PM

Personal preference is what matters most, I guess. I have no performance issues with my current WM device and my previous ones were adequate for the time and technological capability available at that time. And currently I havent seen anything in Android, the iphone or even Symbian that makes them a better mobile OS for me apart from the GUI which is really not a big deal for me anymore and I also prefer WM (even though I have not always felt that way, per my sig) because for ultimate freedom nothing compares. Apple can and have restricted apps as they see fit and requires you have an itunes account, google requires you have a gmail account and provides no way to sync with desktop PIM clients and have also restricted 1 or 2 apps and Symbian is not custimizable enough for me. For myself that prefers to buy my own device outright and modify to my tastes WM, for all its actual and perceived shortcomings is the only OS I could use.

Master Loon

05-11-2009, 08:53 PM

I think a major problem the G1 faces is many of us going to it were used to WM. Again This being a new kid on the block, there is much to iron out. If your were able to root the phone and get thinks like tethering back and pdf viewer, it begins to allow your world to function better.

i admit I do want to go back to WM maybe once The Touch Pro 2 drops for tmobile. But the not so half baked G1 will keep a place....mayeb not dear to my hart, but above the wing and all the other slow ill performing wm devices I had before

virain

05-11-2009, 09:37 PM

Any of them. I wanted a Fuze and went into the store to play with them I couldn't believe that even now the visual effects on the device lagged as much as they did. I had an MDA & Wing which were subpar. I've done app development for them as well and we used a variety of different devices before settling on the 6700 and eventually moving the 6800. We had a pretty heavy app, but the devices weren't doing us any favors.

Wait 'till you start getting black screen on your G1 for about 4 sec. every time you close app. to open another. Or getting a clean wallpaper without any icons after extensive use of Google's browser. No such problem with Opera. And that's just about lags. Add constant forceclose apps, unexpected reboots, just to name a few problems. Plus WM apps are more professional, polished and useful. My point, it's just what you want from your device. Be either cool and hip, or have a useful but bitten up by bad publicity business machine in your pocket.

David Tucker

05-11-2009, 09:58 PM

WinMo is arguably a superior professional device with no extra applications, but I'm sorry, moment you start adding applications its done. My devices couldn't handle running more than 2 apps at a time. Opera was a non-starter since it didn't run at all with any degree of usefullness (and nothing else could be open).

I've experienced all the things you've mentioned but they've been less frequent than any problems I had on WinMo. As a software developer, I'm aware that there is no perfect system. The iPhone suffers the same things. All that I lack on my phone is Exchange but as a consultant, WinMo wasn't much use to me in that respect. With only 1 exchange server I had to pick which one I wanted to get.

And the email client on the G1 is lightyears ahead of pocket outlook. If I can get my email via POP or IMAP then I end up with a much more useful solution.

Jon Westfall

05-11-2009, 11:15 PM

Microsoft Money for Mobile?

It did work for the versions that it officially supported. I used it, and then switched to Spb when it wasn't available. Now I just check Money every 3-4 days anyway, so entering things in Mobile is a moot point. I do wish I had a personal finance manager with a nice mobile app or frontend though...

Jon Westfall

05-11-2009, 11:16 PM

What I think has happened here is the Google Reader devs were ready before Cupcake was ready and thus broke Reader on the G1.

FWIW, after upgrading my G1 to ADP 1.5 (Android Dev Phone), it does seem to be working correctly again. Hopefully the official t-mo release will be coming soon.

PCM Seattle

05-13-2009, 12:20 AM

I've been using MS Operating systems and software since the early versions of DOS. I'm currently running Windows XP Pro SP3 on a Lenovo laptop, ActiveSync 4.5, and Windows Mobile Pro 6 on an HTC TyTN. With one exception, I think I can safely say that I've wasted more time and run into more frustration installing, configuring, and using ActiveSync (especially with Bluetooth) than I have with any other single piece of software. (The exception was a bug in some version of Word for Windows 3.1 that caused AutoSaves to wipe out section formatting -- a terrible thing to happen when you're trying to get a lengthy, complex technical report out before a deadline, and very hard to figure out on your own. If memory serves, Microsoft fessed up to the bug about a month later.)

These are just a few of my peeves with ActiveSync:

* You must use ActiveSync on XP (or the equivalent Vista utility) just to read a WinMo phone as an external storage device. No ActiveSync on XP => no transfer => no conversion => no use of your data in other applications or hardware. (This is an unacceptable vendor tie-in, hopefully to be addressed by the Obama administration's revival of antitrust enforcement.)

* You must use Outlook on your computer just to back up your PIM information, such as contacts. No Outlook => no transfer => no conversion => no use of your PIM data in other applications or hardware. (Another unacceptable vendor tie-in; ditto for the antitrust enforcement.)

* The onscreen prompts and help for establishing an ActiveSync connection via cable are poor.

* The onscreen prompts and online help for establishing a Bluetooth connection are exceptionally poor (admittedly aggravated by the fact that my Lenovo has a proprietary Bluetooth utility, forcing me to adapt standard third-party tips and instructions). I eventually figured out that the six-digit pairing code the computer displayed was not the code I was supposed to enter on the phone; that the small blob on the subsequent computer screen was in fact the lower-left corner of an "invisible" code-entry field; and that I was not supposed to check my phone for the correct code to enter, as the computer prompted me to, but simply to enter the same, random four-digit code on both the computer and the phone. Most of the blame for this probably lies with Lenovo's Bluetooth utility, but the WinMo Bluetooth prompts and help weren't much help either.

* ActiveSync on the computer displays only one COM port as available for Bluetooth. The phone refuses to assign that COM port to Bluetooth. Third-party tips suggest that I can manually reassign COM ports on the computer by choosing a different HAL in the BIOS -- at the cost of giving up standby functionality, which is not very appealing on a laptop. Other third-party tips suggest that I can free up the denied COM port on the phone by hacking WinMo's registry. I'm prepared to give this a shot -- but I really shouldn't have to. I'm moderately computer-literate; what is an ordinary consumer supposed to do?

My conclusion? WinMo and ActiveSync have been out for years, have gone through many versions and updates, and can still be extraordinarily frustrating and dysfunctional. (Don't believe me? Do a Web search for "I hate ActiveSync". I'm far from alone.) Android has been out for, what, a year and half? And it's been open source for half a year? I don't doubt that it's still half-baked in many ways, but in light of my experience with other Google products, I wouldn't be surprised if Android outstrips WinMo in stability, functionality, and ease of use in the not-too-distant future.

Just a voice from the loyal opposition...