Calling all Internet Explorer 6 Users

[Jason Dunn]

<p>This is somewhat random, but humour me. I've been involved in a discussion over email about browsers - specifically Internet Explorer 6 - and why people are still using it (and if they have a choice in the matter). In the case of Pocket PC Thoughts, in the past month 42.6% of all visitors are using some sort of Internet Explorer, and 42.3% are using Firefox. Of those Internet Explorer users, I was very surprised to see that 21.8% of them are still using IE6. IE6 is a highly problematic browser for developers to code for - so much so that there are <a href="http://www.stoplivinginthepast.com/" target="_blank">several online movements</a> to banish it once and for all - yet it's still being used in surprising numbers.</p><p>So if you're using IE6 on your computer that you use to access any of Thoughts Media Web sites, tell me why - I'm really curious! Is it that you're on a corporate computer and they've locked down installing any newer version of IE? Is it that you like IE6 and don't want to change to a newer version? Is it that your computer is messed up and IE7 or IE8 wouldn't even install? There are no wrong answers here, and I'd like to hear from as many of you as possible, so chime in...</p>

[follick]

At work, the only authorized browser is IE6. At home I don't use it.

[marlof]

Lack of choice in a very locked down work setting. IE is mostly used for intranet utilities, and only very limited generic web surfing is allowed. People at work don't care how the outside world looks through IE.

[networkguy]

This is down to the corporates.

Our corporate build is actually IE6 (I don't use the corporate build) because a number of (very expensive) web based enterprise applications don't work in IE7 (or FF or Chrome for that matter).

It's the same with any sort of patching for Windows.

Corporate laptops are typically the worst offenders for being patched. Home users tend to switch on Windows Update and then forget about it. MS then push our the patches each month and the end user just lets it get on with this. IE is pushed out via the same method so as a home user you will be running the newest version just as soon as MS pushes the button. Corporates don't use Windows Update.

[riley4077]

We haven't moved past IE6 at work. It'll take a Vista Upgrade...or maybe they'll ditch Vista and go with 7, either way it's an OS upgrade before I'll take away from your IE6 numbers.

At home though it's IE7 or FF.

[yoda16]

My work won't let us upgrade from IE6 because some of their applications will only work in IE6. Or at least that is what they tell us. At home I use Firefox.

[buckyg]

Add me to the "IE6 at work but something else at home" list. My work too has some expensive apps from expensive companies that only works well on IE6.

I know that the larger the company, the harder it is to roll stuff out to everyone, due to app compatibility, testing, etc. Like others have said, it will be awhile before they migrate us to Vista, probably about the time 7 rolls out.

It's the expensive, web-based apps from major companies that only support IE6 that gets me. Or like MS, the vendors maybe saying, "Oh we support newer browsers, but you must migrate to the latest & greatest version of our software. (at a substantial price, of course)".

[Kardolf]

I, too, am stuck with IE6 at work on most computers. As a tech, I don't have to use most of the web apps the way that most employees do, so we as a department upgraded to IE7 almost a year ago when we were told that there was going to be an enterprise-wide push. We even used the corporate install package that was supposed to be used. But, the testing department apparently came back and pulled the push. Now, almost a year later, we still have no defined timeline for an upgrade to happen. And, I (and all the rest of the techs plus the few users that were "testing" it) have not found a single problem that would appear to be because of a "non-standard" browser.

I will say that we get asked probably once a week when we will be getting IE7 by the users, so it is wanted.

[hypersnail]

There really isn't any compelling reason to move from 6 up to 7 or 8 for the folks that use IE. If you knew enough to use a better browser, you'd be on Firefox or Opera or... well... or anything other than IE. For the average non-power user, all newer versions of IE add is bloat and confusing UI changes.

Granted, your target audience is probably more tech-savvy than that, but from a basic user's perspective, there's nothing wrong with IE 6.

[EscapePod]

Put me in the same "corporate" situation, except that we just finally switched to IE7 within the last month -- after many months of testing and modifying old browser-based apps. With currently >7000 PCs to maintain, the testing was absolutely necessary (and expensive).

[raulr]

Corp lock down on 6 as well.

[Brothernod]

Same as above, ie 6 at work due to compatibility concerns and lack of resources to test all applications.

At home I have the major 4 installed and rotate all of them (ie8, ff 3.0, chrome, safari 4).

I asked IT about a new browser and they said we probably won't see anything other than 6 until we upgrade to Vista or 7 which may still be 2 years away.

[ACE]

yeah, work just switched over to IE7 just last month...

[Brad Adrian]

On the one hand, I can't even imagine how huge a challenge it must be to manage a company's PCs, especially in today's global workplace; heck, I used to work for a company with nearly 30,000 employees!

On the other hand, there are times when the lockdown can be VERY frustrating, even for something as "simple" as a browser. I had recently organized numerous focus groups around the world, costing tens of thousands of dollars, only to find out at the last minute that the Webcast system being used wasn't compatible with our corporate browsers and that our Chief Marketing Officer couldn't observe them live as planned.

Why does it seem like the technology-focused companies are often the very LAST to upgrade to new browsers, OSs, etc?

[Brad Adrian]

Here's a side question, though:

How many people out there adhere strictly to their corporate lockdowns, and how many people are "rogues" and install your own applications anyway?

[Perry Reed]

My corporate laptop is running Win XP and IE 6. They've just recently announced a roll-out to IE 7.

Even worse, we're forced to use the worst software every written for any platform anywhere: Lotus Notes. Ugh.

[Down8]

IE6 @ work, same as everyone else.

@Home, I just bumped to IE8, but I rarely use it (or Chrome) - it is generally just FF3 for me.

-bZj

[tnels!]

6, 7, or 8??? I work for the US Fed Gov. If a number is under a trillion, it does not get our attention.

[Pete Paxton]

At work I use WinXP and I am supposed to use IE 6. But... I was able to install FF and Chrome one day when they unlocked all the restrictions. I also use Chrome at work but usually FF. At home I've been using the new Ubuntu Jaunty beta which comes with FF. Love it!

[follick]

6, 7, or 8??? I work for the US Fed Gov. If a number is under a trillion, it does not get our attention.

While FDCC (http://nvd.nist.gov/fdcc/index.cfm) recommends IE7 for Federal Government computers, large swaths of the Federal Government are still using IE6. In my agency there are still around 100,000 computers running IE6. I expect IE7 will be rolled out. Someday. Not soon.

[kdarling]

Same here... lots of applications we wrote at work, are still in use on IE6 laptops.

We cannot upgrade, because then we would not be able to continue to support and expand our apps.

Moreover, we even used IE6 under Windows CE back in 2006 (that's how long it's been available, at least the original mobile IE6 version)... it was terrific to be able to use most IE6 DHTML features on a touch handheld. The application even had flick-scrolling like the iPhone later had.

You can see an old demo of the CE app here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0bhG6d0n9w

(It's a bit boring, because it's a field technician application for a phone company.)

[wesk]

My company laptop has IE6. Since I travel every week I access the Thoughts sites more with my laptop, than with one of my home PC's. The home PC's have a mix of IE7, IE8, Firefox, and Chrome.

Wes

[heliod]

I already use IE7 everywhere, but I still see IE6 at my customers in high scales, and this for two reasons:

- Corporate customers due to corporate lockout as already said in the last comments.

- Small Businesses (which have outsourced IT departments or no IT departments at all), due to the fact that nobody never cared to activate Windows Update there.

[wocket]

At school we are locked in IE6. Thanks to a managed service. Every management meeting I attend I ask the same question. "When are we moving to a more compliant browser" failing that "when are we moving to IE7"

Every other time I use non IE's

[mantra]

Work machine only has ie6 due to IT policy. Sucks though as it screws up other web based apps I use too!

[ptath2]

Like a lot of people it is the corporate standard, but about a month ago I installed IE 7 anyway no one has said anything. I use IE 8 at home.

[emuelle1]

My desktop at work still has IE6. I have no idea why government and corporate IT departments still use IE6, the most insecure and worthless browser ever. Even most of the sites I access on that network don't function correctly with IE6. I finally put Firefox Portable on it. I use IE Tab for anything that refuses to work in Firefox.

[inteller]

At work, the only authorized browser is IE6. At home I don't use it.


where do you work? I'd like to hack in and exploit your company.


just kidding....but really your company is taking serious risks.

[The Yaz]

Going with the theme of the day; My work computer runs IE6 because the accounting package we operate cannot access an ftp server in any other browser.

[Cold Flame]

At home I am an IE6 user. The honest reason is that I have an illegal copy of XP on my box (even though I have a legal one sitting on a shelf waiting to be installed) and I can't do the upgrade to IE7 due to the Windows Genuine Advantage dealy. Truth be told, I quite like IE6, though now that I've been using IE7 at work for so long I wouldn't mind switching. I also have Chrome installed at home, but rarely use it.

At work we upgraded to IE7 about 8 months ago now, but I was definitely slow to release it to our users. It didn't work well with our old Intranet page and a few other pages that some of our engineers use. All is well now though.

[CeluGeek]

There really isn't any compelling reason to move from 6 up to 7 or 8 for the folks that use IE. If you knew enough to use a better browser, you'd be on Firefox or Opera or... well... or anything other than IE. For the average non-power user, all newer versions of IE add is bloat and confusing UI changes.
I disagree. After using IE7, I can't imagine going back to IE6. I don't use FireFox except when I'm using Linux, because the unprofessional look and feel of one is a perfect fit for the other.

As for the question at hand, I'm in the opposite of most of you guys. I'm using IE8 at work. At home, I'm still using IE7 because I don't see anything in IE8 that'll make me upgrade. If it aint broke, I don't fix it.

[Craig Horlacher]

I like the interface better in IE 6. It lets me move the bars and the icons around anyway I want. The interface seems far more restricted in IE7. It costs me screen real estate that I can use for browsing in both IE6 and Firefox. Chrome is just super efficient with screen real estate to start with by not wasting all that room for the title bar when you maximize. I hate not having tabs in IE so I do have an add-on for that but I don't use IE much anyway.

Also, IE 7 doesn't seem to be any more secure than IE 6. It seems just as bad based on friend who I have that have computer problems. Those who use firefox or chrome consistantly have less random issues/malware.

I use Chrome and Firefox most of the time. Chrome is faster on my PC's and I like the start page with recent site thumbnails in Chrome. I do like the full page zooming (much better than any other browser zoom I've seen - ctrl-[scroll wheel]) in Firefox as well as the "find as you type".

With Firefox and Chrome I have no desire to install IE8. If a site requires IE, I always seem to get by with IE6.

I guess if I ever move to Windows 7 from Windows XP I'll probably end up with IE 8.

[bkerrins]

Me too. It's work restricted.

[PPCRules]

Work computers are still stuck at IE6; certain company apps apparently won't run on newer versions and the company either let the people go that could fix the apps or there is no funding.

At home, I have several computers with Win2K and Microsoft thought it a good idea to artificially not allow IE7 to run on Win2K. (Why are they still running Win2K? Because that's what they came with and Microsoft thought it was a good idea to extort large sums from people to move to a newer version of Windows.)

[Jason Dunn]

Thanks for all the great responses everyone - this confirms my theory that the vast majority of people who are using IE6 don't have any choice in the matter. Unfortunately as Web sites continue to evolve and grow, the IE6-users view of the Web will become broken and dysfunctional. Makes me wonder why IT departments don't leave IE6 as the standard for Web-based apps, but install Firefox for day to day browsing for employees.

[follick]

Makes me wonder why IT departments don't leave IE6 as the standard for Web-based apps, but install Firefox for day to day browsing for employees.
Let me give the short answer to this one. Corporate IT departments in large organizations (In general) really don't CARE about day to day browsing for the serfs and peons. It would take budget to test, verify security and support Firefox, and there is no one they can sue if problems happen. Why bother?

[Jason Dunn]

Let me give the short answer to this one. Corporate IT departments in large organizations (In general) really don't CARE about day to day browsing for the serfs and peons.

Yeah, I understand - but I hope that users will "rise up" against their IT departments and complain loudly if they can't see/use Web sites the way they're supposed to look/work. IE6 was so completely non-standards-based, things are going to get ugly when the next wave of Web site re-designs start to go live over the next 12-24 months and developers drop support for IE6.

[Tony Rylow]

Another IE6 at work due to corporate standards but FF/IE8 at home.

[Dyvim]

I only recently moved to IE7 on my work laptop. We're not locked down at all but when IE7 first came out, it caused problems with Visual Studio. Visual Studio is our lifeblood, so anything that could even possibly mess with that, is a no-no. Those issues were cleared up long ago, but still there's little reason to change: we're all using FF3 anyway for everything except for those few sites that only work in IE (and thankfully, that # of sites is shrinking over time).

Still I find it curious that the official MS browser had compatibility issues with the official MS development tools (Visual Studio).

[leslietroyer]

yup still on IE6 -- corporate standard. They wont roll out 7. and it will take years to figure out if they want to go with 8..... Firefox is an option, but it is equally as old.

LEs

[BevHoward]

>> IE6 is a highly problematic browser for developers to code for - so much so that there are several online movements to banish it once and for all <<

imho, the supreme irony here is that web developers code for "ie" at all...

The browser concept was founded on the basis of a common protocol where users of any os using any browser could access information from other systems.

Then, ie became the dominant browser so coders catered to what ie could do or required _since the remainder of users comprised only a small percentage and content providers could afford to ignore them_

This thread is even more ironic in that it's focus is a PC based problem on a web site that is specifically targeted for mobile users.

Bells, whistles and eye candy may be the holy grail of the marketing world who also can't abide the idea that their page layout might be altered to fit a different screen or perhaps an eye condition.

In general, I would rather see sites using LCD* so they didn't exclude users who fail to conform to the "expected norm" in their equipment, connection and browser choice.

Respectfully, but sincerely,
Beverly Howard

*LCD = Lowest Common Denominator

[follick]

Yeah, I understand - but I hope that users will "rise up" against their IT departments and complain loudly if they can't see/use Web sites the way they're supposed to look/work.
The standard management response to this is probably going to be something like: "You can use any browser you like on the unemployment line."

Unless it's a website that you have a justifiable business need to access, I doubt very much they will care at all.

[vr6t]

IE6 at work. FF at home. We're in the same boat as most of the other corporate folks on here. 140,000 employees...so my company doesn't rush to upgrade anything. We have some apps that they claim only run on IE6 (although I've run a few with IE7 as a test).

I don't expect an official upgrade to IE7 for years. We're actually bypassing Vista and waiting for Windows 7 as well due to IT test results... Even then, I expect it to be a slow rollout of the new OS.

Myself - I may have bypassed the rules and installed FF on my laptop. Just makes sense. So you won't see me visiting here on IE6, although that is what I have installed...

[Jason Dunn]

imho, the supreme irony here is that web developers code for "ie" at all...The browser concept was founded on the basis of a common protocol where users of any os using any browser could access information from other systems.

You're 100% right: no Web developer should have to code for a specific browser. It's completely idiotic that a Web browser, which should strictly adhere to HTML/XHTML/etc. standards, should interpret code in any way but one. Yet that's exactly what IE6 did - it was a horrible browser by all accounts (I'm not a developer) because it simply didn't work the way it should work.

Thankfully, IE8 is much better, and in fact is arguably the most standards-compliant browser there is today.

This thread is even more ironic in that it's focus is a PC based problem on a web site that is specifically targeted for mobile users.

Well, firstly, this is an off-topic post. Secondly, this message was posted to Pocket PC Thoughts, Smartphone Thoughts, Digital Home Thoughts, and Zune Thoughts. All kinds of different users.

But even then the point remains...Darius has recently been working on new mobile templates for all our sites. IE Mobile is a bit of a freakish beast, and of course it's not the same from one version of Windows Mobile to the next, so by not being standards-compliant, it creates headaches for developers.

Bells, whistles and eye candy may be the holy grail of the marketing world who also can't abide the idea that their page layout might be altered to fit a different screen or perhaps an eye condition.

But that's exactly the point Bev - if a browser properly renders HTML/CSS/etc. code properly, then usability adjustments (image zoom, text size enhancements, etc.) will work that right way. Things will get bigger, but the layout and functionality of the site will remain the same. Bigger, but not broken. When a Web developer can code to Web standards, he knows that he can guarantee a good user experience. IE 6 simply doesn't deliver that without the developer spending extra resources to compensate for it's inability to render things properly.

You seem to think that this is about fancy whiz-bang features, but it's not: it's simply about getting page elements and basic design features to be in the same place, and work the same, across all browsers. IE6 makes that a nightmare for many developers.

[Twain]

You can use any browser you like on the unemployment line.


I think the corollary to this is: "You'll use the corporate standard browser if you want to remain part of the Paycheck Continuation Program!"

[Brad Adrian]

...but I hope that users will "rise up" against their IT departments and complain loudly if they can't see/use Web sites the way they're supposed to look/work.
Totally agree.

We've got to remember what a minority geeks like us are, even in the most technology-focused companies. How many employees do you think A) KNOW what browser/version they use, or B) Know enough to blame the browser instead of the Web site when it doesn't render correctly?

[Tim Williamson]

IE6 is a corporate standard here too...luckily I was able to get Firefox loaded on my box.

[NHmom]

Same here as others, work desktop locked down, only use antiquated IE6. Use Firefox for everything else.

[BevHoward]

Thanks for the responses Jason, all very well thought out.

While we both have valid points, one analogy to help underscore my point is to compare web pages to content on a printed page.

The creator of a printed page spends part of his/her time setting margins, indents, text wrap around content, etc, etc. as an integral part of the words and images on that page. That type of control works on the printed page since the paper is a static unmodifiable medium, but it doesn't work (at least it doesn't work well) with web pages.

In addition to different browsers, users use resolutions from vga to really high res and many crater (ppct does a pretty good job) when you make minor changes such as modifying the text size... go to http://cnn.com using a mozilla based browser (firefox, seamonkey, etc) and press <Ctrl-+> a few times for sample. (Keep us old farts with failing eyesight in mind and do the same on your own pages as they render ;-)

Pages are everywhere with such strict text formatting that expanding the text size renders them inaccessible and I have a hunch that the page creators are oblivious to the problems which occur when visitors come and use settings and browsers different from those of the page author.

A long time ago (pre-internet) I ended up with some valuable education points which taught me to be aware of messages that existed in addition to the incoming words and images... i.e. who is the message aimed at, what is the writer's opinion of the reader and does the writer have any concerns about the reader? Subtle inadvertent messages... "Eat at Joe's on Tuesday" may carry the additional message "Don't Eat at Joe's on Wed through Mon" There's an amazing number of ads out there which seem to assume their customers are dumb as a stump when you look at the whole.

When I visit a site I need or want to visit and things are not readable or simply don't work, the message I receive is that that company doesn't want me there unless I am compliant to their expectations.

Conversely, when I visit a site using a PDA and that site allows the experience for PDA users, the company has sent me a strong, effective and positieve message that they look at things from the consumers' viewpoint and that goes much further than a "special sale" in the long term.

Jason, you are doing a great job here and have a clean accessible site for a broad range of machines, browsers and users.

My posts such as this and the previous one are made in the hope that when readers of these missives later visit a site that makes the visit unpleasant experience that they might take a moment to go beyond the tech issues of the problem(s) and perceive that they just received a clear subliminal message from the vendor, since there will normally be a clear connection between those subliminal messages and how the company will treat you as a client or customer down the line.

Thanks again for this great resource you provide,
Beverly Howard

[Zman]

it was the default browser that came with xp sp2 i think, many people don't care about upgrading and dont want to. i actually stuck with ie6 until only a few weeks ago, the reason is i had a ton of favorites and didn't want to have to import them into firefox lol. the only reason i finally did switch was to use adblock on firefox.

you have to remember users could care less if ie6 is hard to code for, it works and its installed by default, so they use it, there is no reason to switch for most people.

[Jason Dunn]

it was the default browser that came with xp sp2 i think, many people don't care about upgrading and dont want to. i actually stuck with ie6 until only a few weeks ago...

Interesting - so, I just have to ask, since IE7 has been on auto-distribution via Windows Update for over a year, why didn't you move from IE6 to IE7? Do you ignore Windows Updates, or just didn't want to use IE7? I'm honestly really curious. :)

[Mikenyc]

Using + firefox, google (crashes the machine MOST times eventually).
No problems, "knock, knock".

[N5TEV]

Have not seen IE8 yet, but I have no interest in IE7. Like the direction of most MS software, I have no use for the "Fisher-Price" look and feel appearence. The IE7 interface is non-intuitive, and I require standard menu bars, buttons, and controls.

Ill take a look at IE8 after its been out for a while and had all the programming finished with respect to consumer-guinie pig-reported reported bugs, but IE 6 is satisfactory for now.

Jeff