Palm's Pre May Finally Be Legitimate Competition [Archive]

Vincent Ferrari

01-19-2009, 04:00 PM

<img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com/resizer/thumbs/size/600/at/auto/1231763903.usr18053.jpg" style="border: 1px solid #d2d2bb;" />I remember it very clearly.  It was January 2007, and I was sitting in my office furiously refreshing the page on my work computer reading the liveblogging that was going on.  It was finally here; Steve Jobs was announcing the iPhone.  It was a device thousands upon thousands of loyal Apple customers were dying for.  A phone designed to work with their platform, not hacked to "function" with it.  Out of the box, it was designed to sync our contacts and calendar, give us e-mail that was better than anything else on the market, and a web experience that no one on the market could match.  I'll never forget how my mind boggled that day, and I haven't felt that way about a product announcement since then.  Today, however, I think another company has finally done something that I never thought I would see: developed a competitor to the iPhone that could take a bite out of the iPhone, and surprise of surprises, it's Palm.<MORE />Let's face it.  For the past few years, Palm has been nothing short of a joke.  Treo after Treo waddled to market exciting pretty much no one.  For the most part they were incremental upgrades to existing models.  Their first new model came two years ago in the form of the Palm Centro, a model decidedly targeted at the low-end "wants a PDA that's cheap" customer.  Palm has languished in mediocrity with their line of PDA's, bungled an announcement of the Foleo only to later revoke it, and left its much hyped Palm OS 6.0 buried in corporate headquarters never to be seen in public view.Palm also has been losing money hand over fist, making it a buyout target and the subject of constant rumors about its future.  Management has been called incompetent and ineffective and has been changed too many times to count over the past three to four years.  In a word, the company appeared to be falling apart and an icon of what ushered in the era of PDAs looked to be dead in the water.It was with that in mind that many tech journalists said, before Palm's announcement at CES last week, that the announcement was going to make or break the company.  Luckily for them, it may just have been the shot in the arm they needed.<PAGE /><img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com/resizer/thumbs/size/600/at/auto/1231764651.usr18053.jpg" style="border: 1px solid #d2d2bb;" />If you've read anything I've written over the past few months, you'll know how I feel about "iPhone killers."  I'm tired of the moniker being slapped on every new phone that shows some kind of gimmicky new feature set and usually these "killers" end up being roadkill under the wheels of the iPhone.  The Verizon Voyager?  Sold great at the beginning, but by Christmas, a mere two months after its release, no one cared anymore.  The BlackBerry Storm?  How many have you seen in public?  The HTC Touch Diamond Special Super X1 Mobile Monster Mega Edition HD VGA?  Never seen one on the NYC subway, arguably a melting pot of mobile devices.Yet, with all those flops and over statements, I truly think Palm has a winner on its hands with the Pre.Oh sure, it doesn't run "real" applications.  And yes, it's completely incompatible with every prior iteration of the Palm OS.  Even with those two major dings, the amount of thought put into the device is evident from the very first time you see the video demonstration.  The UI is meant to be touched, glided, and slid across.  Transitions from app to app are smooth.  Multitasking, something Apple essentially decided to forego in the iPhone, is painless and natural.  The deck of cards metaphor works as you shuffle through running applications.  Gestures are employed naturally and in a separate part of the phone (a Godsend if you're tired of wiping the screen of your phone on your pants).  Start typing and the phone figures out what you're trying to do (a la Quicksilver).  I could go on and on, but you're starting to get the picture.While many manufacturers have taken their existing phones and slapped a touch screen on them and bragged about having a touch screen device, Palm has rethought the touch screen in much the same way Apple did, and I think the Pre might very well be the first smart phone released post iPhone whose creators can say they've learned the lessons of the iPhone.  UI is primary above all else.  Not the screen.  Not the network the phone is on.  Not the stupid tangential features thrown in.  If the phone isn't usable, people will notice.Palm has learned the lesson of the iPhone, and it'll be interesting to see how well it demonstrates what it learned when it's released in April.Vincent Ferrari is an Apple fan, videoblogger, blogger, writer, and all-around geek from the Bronx. He works in the IT Department of a cellular phone company that shall not be named, and lives in a very comfortable apartment with his lovely wife, two lovely cats, three Macs, two iPhones, and God-knows-how-many iPods of varying age.<img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com//ppct/auto/1240336793.usr1.gif" />Do you enjoy using new hardware, software and accessories, then sharing your experience with others? Then join us on the <a href="http://www.thoughtsmedia.com/reviewteam.php" target="_blank">Thoughts Media Review Team</a>! We're looking for individuals who find it fun to test new gear and give their honest opinions about the experience. It's a volunteer role with some great perks. Interested? <a href="http://www.thoughtsmedia.com/reviewteam.php" target="_blank">Then click here for more information.</a><img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com//ppct/auto/1240336793.usr1.gif" />

crimsonsky

01-19-2009, 05:01 PM

I'm pretty much with you on this one. Looking at the Pre, it is clearly something distinctive and unique and really does bring something different to the table unlike other so-called iPhone killers.

I'm really cheering for Palm on this one. It's been years since I've used a Palm device, having moved to Windows Mobile many years ago (and still using WM in conjunction with my Blackberry). This is the the first phone since the iPhone that I've really felt excited about. Go Palm Go!

I just hope it isn't too late for Palm. My gut says this is the device that will save Palm and make them a major player again.

Now, how easy will it be to use with Macs? :)

emuelle1

01-19-2009, 05:04 PM

I think calling anything an iPhone killer is stupid too. It smacks of a "one size fits all" mentality, as if somebody will come out with one device that everybody will want to use. The iPhone is one sweet device, and I love my iPod Touch, but I've deliberately chosen the Windows Mobile platform for my phone because I prefer a few capabilities it has and the iPhone still lacks.

As you said, the iPhone is a phone "for us". It works on the platform of those who prefer Apple. I figure the only thing that can kill the iPhone is Apple, either by releasing a totally new device or one day not updating the iPhone to keep up with the world.

Vincent Ferrari

01-19-2009, 05:15 PM

Now, how easy will it be to use with Macs? :)

I'm not so convinced it'll matter. From what I gather, it's all about the cloud with the Pre, meaning as long as your cloud-related apps sync with your computer, it'll run on any platform. I think the days of desktop syncing may very well be over in the eyes of Palm, and if that's the case it's a very forward-thinking and welcome change in philosophy.

doogald

01-19-2009, 05:35 PM

Let's see how much it costs first.

doogald

01-19-2009, 05:37 PM

I'm not so convinced it'll matter. From what I gather, it's all about the cloud with the Pre, meaning as long as your cloud-related apps sync with your computer, it'll run on any platform. I think the days of desktop syncing may very well be over in the eyes of Palm, and if that's the case it's a very forward-thinking and welcome change in philosophy.

I'm already there. I just reset my Windows Mobile phone from scratch and everything is syncing through the cloud. I am using Spanning Sync to get calendars and contacts to Google Calendar and Gmail, and NuevaSync to bring it down using Exchange services, and I am using Verizon's wireless e-mail sync with Gmail. Everything is push, everything works great.

If there is ever a reason to get or send a file to the phone, I use Bluetooth with the MacBook.

crimsonsky

01-19-2009, 07:09 PM

I'm not so convinced it'll matter. From what I gather, it's all about the cloud with the Pre, meaning as long as your cloud-related apps sync with your computer, it'll run on any platform. I think the days of desktop syncing may very well be over in the eyes of Palm, and if that's the case it's a very forward-thinking and welcome change in philosophy.

While I'm not a huge fan of cloud computing, synchronisation is the one area where I find the cloud to be of immense value. I use MobileMe to keep my Macs in sync and is the primary reason I have the service at all. If Palm is really moving to cloud based synchronisation, I agree it's a welcome change in philosophy. Not having to deal with desktop based syncs and all the vagaries thereof would be a godsend!

Vincent Ferrari

01-19-2009, 07:33 PM

While I'm not a huge fan of cloud computing, synchronisation is the one area where I find the cloud to be of immense value. I use MobileMe to keep my Macs in sync and is the primary reason I have the service at all. If Palm is really moving to cloud based synchronisation, I agree it's a welcome change in philosophy. Not having to deal with desktop based syncs and all the vagaries thereof would be a godsend!

My sentiments exactly. :D

Janak Parekh

01-19-2009, 08:31 PM

Nicely-written post, Vincent. I thought the exact same thing when I saw the Pre. Of course, the devil's in the details, but it seems like Palm realizes this. The switch to card ("task")-based execution is a natural progression from what mobile devices now. The Pre is the first device I've seen that's made me pause and say, "hey, I might want this over the iPhone" (and, no, I'm not labeling it an iPhone-killer, just really cool).

Oh, and it makes MS's slow movement in WM even more glaring. I mean, Microsoft, really? You're letting an also-ran who took about 5 years too long to replace Garnet come up with this before any substantial rerelease of your OS? You're going to let Apple, Google, and even Palm get in a release before you?

--janak

Dyvim

01-19-2009, 08:38 PM

I really hope Apple is paying attention and will take a page from Palm's book as regards multi-tasking. I love my iPhone but I'm getting really tired of pressing the Home button to bounce back and forth between applications. My biggest aggravation is having to close an app just to change some minor setting (like brightness or mail fetching frequency) and then close the settings and then open up the app I was just in and then waiting for it to initialize. Argghhh! That said, I am nowhere near ready to return to Windows Mobile. Just picking up my old Toshiba e830 (which used to be my favoritest mobile device ever) makes me cringe. But sooner or later if Apple doesn't continue to innovate the iPhone platform I will get sick enough of single-tasking that I might jump ship to something else like the Pre. Just sayin'.

But I agree- this is the first device I've been excited about since the iPhone was announced. I hope it does well.

Tim Williamson

01-19-2009, 09:56 PM

I'm hoping this will light a little fire under Apple's butt to give us some long-time requested missing features.

I also really like the cloud computing aspect of the Pre. I've been really hesitant to move to cloud syncing because of my own fear of losing data in the cloud, either by a sync gone wrong, or by not being able to restore from a backup. The one thing I've moved to the cloud are my tasks, since the iPhone doesn't offer a native Task sync, I've been using Toodledo for this.

Calendar/Contacts I still sync with my PC because Google has limitations when it comes to syncing contacts and Calendar, and I like to be in control of my own data (maybe I have control issues lol). :)

Macguy59

01-20-2009, 01:41 AM

I'm not seeing a ton of people jump ship to Sprint the way did to AT&T. Now when Verizon gets it . . .

Tim Williamson

01-20-2009, 01:45 AM

I'm not seeing a ton of people jump ship to Sprint the way did to AT&T. Now when Verizon gets it . . .

The ironic thing is that Sprint has the fastest network. I'm not sure how good their coverage is though.

Deslock

01-20-2009, 03:42 AM

I agree 100%. The Pre's hardware is tasty and webOS looks incredible. I personally prefer a flat tablet form-factor device and I've been happy with the iPhone, so I don't plan to get a Pre. But other than the G1, this is the only phone (since the iPhone) that's really impressed me. The Pre's AJAX model is especially intriguing... unlike Apple's initial web-app approach, Palm is allowing for locally stored apps and more hardware/OS access (though it's unclear just how far developers will be able to take it). And while the iPhone interface and responsiveness are excellent, it's obvious that some trade-offs were made to get mobileOSX to run so well on such limited hardware and the Pre's application switching is slick.

However, some questions:
How do you type in landscape mode? If there is an onscreen keyboard, will it have predictive text?
Without syncing, how do you restore applications, media files, and non-cloud data if you replace your lost/stolen/broken phone?
What's the deal with flash support?
Will GPU intensive apps/games be possible?
On a side note, what is Microsoft going to do with WinMobile? At this point they have too many customers locked into the current WinCE model to make a clean break like Palm is doing... so how will Microsoft create a handheld with a decent finger-input interface? (not just a pretty outer layer like HTC has tossed on) A capacitance screen is a must, but most of WinMobile's interface is still stylus-based.

ucfgrad93

01-20-2009, 04:13 PM

Pony99CA

01-21-2009, 12:26 AM

If you've read anything I've written over the past few months, you'll know how I feel about "iPhone killers."  I'm tired of the moniker being slapped on every new phone that shows some kind of gimmicky new feature set and usually these "killers" end up being roadkill under the wheels of the iPhone.  The Verizon Voyager?  Sold great at the beginning, but by Christmas, a mere two months after its release, no one cared anymore.  The BlackBerry Storm?  How many have you seen in public?  The HTC Touch Diamond Special Super X1 Mobile Monster Mega Edition HD VGA?  Never seen one on the NYC subway, arguably a melting pot of mobile devices.
I agree the "iPhone killer" label is stupid, or more correctly, marketing crap. Nothing will kill the iPhone as long as there are Apple fanboys around. :) But let's face it, you compare yourself to what's hot and nobody wants to call their devices an "iPhone clone" (why buy a clone when you can have the original?).

What I'm tired of is the "how many have you seen" argument. At work, I've seen one iPhone and one G-1. Does that mean hardly anybody has bought them? No. I think I've also seen more Zunes at work than iPods. Does that mean the Zune is outselling the iPod? Of course not. It's just anecdotal evidence without a statistically valid sample.

On the Windows Mobile side, for example, Microsoft has said 20 million devices were sold in 2008, with 11 models selling over 1 million units each. I'll bet that one or more of those models were HTC Touch Diamond Special Super X1 Mobile Monster Mega Edition HD VGA (or some other dismissive label you may make up).

Yet, with all those flops and over statements, I truly think Palm has a winner on its hands with the Pre.

Oh sure, it doesn't run "real" applications.  And yes, it's completely incompatible with every prior iteration of the Palm OS.
Wasn't that first knock also used against the original iPhone? And it still sold a lot of phones.

The second issue may be more problematic for Palm. Will your traditional Palm OS developers want to learn a new development system? Assuming they want to learn a new development metaphor, maybe it would make more sense to write for the iPhone, Windows Mobile or Android that have larger user bases. It may be only the true believers and pioneers who want to write for the Pre.

Of course, that worked out pretty well for the iPhone, which had about zero developers two years ago. ;)

[...]Palm has rethought the touch screen in much the same way Apple did, and I think the Pre might very well be the first smart phone released post iPhone whose creators can say they've learned the lessons of the iPhone.  UI is primary above all else.  Not the screen.  Not the network the phone is on.  Not the stupid tangential features thrown in.  If the phone isn't usable, people will notice.

Palm has learned the lesson of the iPhone, and it'll be interesting to see how well it demonstrates what it learned when it's released in April.
Believe it or not, it may not be all about Apple. Palm has always been a company that prided itself on having a simple, easy-to-use interface. Sure, they have probably taken some cues from the iPhone, but let's not give Apple all of the credit if WebOS is easy to use. It's part of Palm's heritage (just like it's part of Apple's heritage).

Steve

Pony99CA

01-21-2009, 12:39 AM

How do you type in landscape mode? If there is an onscreen keyboard, will it have predictive text?
How do you type in portrait mode on a G-1?

Without syncing, how do you restore applications, media files, and non-cloud data if you replace your lost/stolen/broken phone?
How does Android or Windows Mobile handle that? WM can sync media files, but you generally have to restore your applications from scratch (unless you installed them via ActiveSync, but even then you have to reconfigure the settings). What about Android?

Of course, you can always get a backup program (at least on WM).

On a side note, what is Microsoft going to do with WinMobile? At this point they have too many customers locked into the current WinCE model to make a clean break like Palm is doing... so how will Microsoft create a handheld with a decent finger-input interface? (not just a pretty outer layer like HTC has tossed on) A capacitance screen is a must, but most of WinMobile's interface is still stylus-based.
I think you'll hear about Microsoft's response in February. ;) But see my Windows Mobile New Year's Resolutions (http://thoughts.svpocketpc.com#THOUGHT_WM7_RESOLUTIONS) editorial for a suggestion on how to handle finger-friendly UIs.

And I don't think a capacitive screen is necessary. It makes swiping easier, but I've heard you can even do multi-touch with resistive screens. I also wrote an editorial on Why Windows Mobile Needs A Stylus (http://thoughts.svpocketpc.com#THOUGHT_STYLUS_VS_FINGERS).

Steve

Tim Williamson

01-21-2009, 12:41 AM

I'm in love with the iPhone's backup and restore process. Never had any issues (yet) and have gone through 2 upgrades (including unlock/jailbreak).

Deslock

01-21-2009, 03:10 AM

How do you type in portrait mode on a G-1?
The G1 has on-screen keyboard options (though AFAIK they don't have the iPhone's predictive text or touch-location-correction). Also its (somewhat crappy) hardware keyboard is bigger than the Pre's, so many users are willing to forgive the G1 for not having a portrait keyboard.

How does Android or Windows Mobile handle that?
Dunno about Android, but when I used WM its syncing handled restoring everything *horribly* (had to reinstall apps manually). I've read that there are now backup solutions (though I dunno how long that takes, how automated it is, if it's automatically interrupted if you receive calls, etc). The iPhone (and every app on it) is absurdly easy and convenient when it comes to syncing and restoring.

A 3rd party syncing app has been announced (http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=14810), but it's not clear if this will backup apps.
I think you'll hear about Microsoft's response in February. ;) But see my Windows Mobile New Year's Resolutions (http://thoughts.svpocketpc.com#THOUGHT_WM7_RESOLUTIONS) editorial for a suggestion on how to handle finger-friendly UIs.
I think your suggestion about having both finger-friendly and traditional stylus modes is a good one. Legacy support would still be there and new apps could be developed for one or both modes (depending on which is appropriate).

And I don't think a capacitive screen is necessary. It makes swiping easier, but I've heard you can even do multi-touch with resistive screens. I also wrote an editorial on Why Windows Mobile Needs A Stylus (http://thoughts.svpocketpc.com#THOUGHT_STYLUS_VS_FINGERS).
Yeah I read that editorial a while ago; I agree with some of your points and not others (IMO, copy/paste should be easy to implement for finger-input and scrolling is easier/faster with finger-input). I agree with you that a stylus is better for some specific types of apps (in addition to being useful for legacy support).

However, I disagree with you about capacitance vs resistive screens as I've never seen an effective finger-input resistive screen device (other than large screens that require only button presses). So I think WM should switch to capacitance screens and also include a stylus.

Janak Parekh

01-21-2009, 03:15 AM

The G1 has on-screen keyboard options (though AFAIK they don't have the iPhone's predictive text or touch-location-correction). Also its (somewhat crappy) hardware keyboard is bigger than the Pre's, so many users are willing to forgive the G1 for not having a portrait keyboard. No, this is incorrect. Currently, the G1 only has text input in the landscape (keyboard open) mode. There are builds of alpha releases that have soft keyboards floating out on the web, so a solution is there long-term.

--janak

Pony99CA

01-21-2009, 03:35 AM

Yeah I read that editorial a while ago; I agree with some of your points and not others (IMO, copy/paste should be easy to implement for finger-input and scrolling is easier/faster with finger-input).
Copy/paste with fingers has the same problem that drawing has -- specifying your starting and ending points exactly. For example, if I put my finger on a Web page full of text, I could be covering 9 characters or more (3 on 3 lines). How would you improve that accuracy to avoid selecting the wrong place to start? A stylus makes it easier.

As for scrolling, how is finger-input faster? I've heard Android starts scrolling with a flick and ends with a touch (or something), but I assume the scroll speed is fixed. With a stylus, I can rip the stylus quickly to the bottom of the page or scroll more deliberately to pinpoint where I want to stop. I can also do page-at-a-time scrolling by tapping above or below the scroll box, which seems almost as fast as a flick scroll (assuming I have the stylus in hand, of course).

Maybe there are decent ways to do those with your finger and I'm just not imaginative enough, so let me know. ;)

Steve

Deslock

01-21-2009, 04:03 AM

No, this is incorrect. Currently, the G1 only has text input in the landscape (keyboard open) mode. There are builds of alpha releases that have soft keyboards floating out on the web, so a solution is there long-term.

--janak
Not sure what you're saying was incorrect as I was referring to 3rd party soft-keyboard projects available for download.

Copy/paste with fingers has the same problem that drawing has -- specifying your starting and ending points exactly. For example, if I put my finger on a Web page full of text, I could be covering 9 characters or more (3 on 3 lines). How would you improve that accuracy to avoid selecting the wrong place to start? A stylus makes it easier.
Yes an advantage to a stylus is that it instant knows the point of contact, however, exact curser position isn't a problem with the iPhone because it has the little magnifying glass that pops up. Also in addition to comparing input words to a dictionary, the iphone uses an algorithm to figure out exactly where you meant to press (based on the shape and pressure gradient of your finger's contact patch). So copy and paste is a non-issue.

As for scrolling, how is finger-input faster? I've heard Android starts scrolling with a flick and ends with a touch (or something), but I assume the scroll speed is fixed. With a stylus, I can rip the stylus quickly to the bottom of the page or scroll more deliberately to pinpoint where I want to stop. I can also do page-at-a-time scrolling by tapping above or below the scroll box, which seems almost as fast as a flick scroll (assuming I have the stylus in hand, of course).

Maybe there are decent ways to do those with your finger and I'm just not imaginative enough, so let me know. ;)
Finger input allows you to quickly and intuitively apply a certain amount of momentum to scrolling. On the iPhone, it scrolls at various speeds, depending on how you flicked it (when I wrote it's quicker, I was referring not to the speed of the scrolling itself, but rather how quickly and conveniently you can get it to scroll the way you want... though on that note it also allows for faster scrolling than my old stylus devices did).

Janak Parekh

01-21-2009, 05:29 AM

Not sure what you're saying was incorrect as I was referring to 3rd party soft-keyboard projects available for download. Oh, nevermind then. Apologies for the misstatement. I obviously don't know my Android 3rd-party apps. ;)

Finger input allows you to quickly and intuitively apply a certain amount of momentum to scrolling. On the iPhone, it scrolls at various speeds, depending on how you flicked it (when I wrote it's quicker, I was referring not to the speed of the scrolling itself, but rather how quickly and conveniently you can get it to scroll the way you want... though on that note it also allows for faster scrolling than my old stylus devices did). Not only that, but the fact that you don't need to navigate to a scrollbar (thanks to gesture recognition) is a major advantage. The iPhone also has a shortcut to top-of-list. Apart from special cases (i.e., scrolling to the bottom of a long list), I find touch scrolling far quicker than stylus-based scrolling.

--janak

Pony99CA

01-22-2009, 12:11 AM

Yes an advantage to a stylus is that it instant knows the point of contact, however, exact curser position isn't a problem with the iPhone because it has the little magnifying glass that pops up. Also in addition to comparing input words to a dictionary, the iphone uses an algorithm to figure out exactly where you meant to press (based on the shape and pressure gradient of your finger's contact patch). So copy and paste is a non-issue.
Then why doesn't the iPhone have it? ;)

I think the problem could be that they used swiping motions for scrolling, and thus can't use them for text selection. A dedicated area for scrolling (a scroll bar) allows distinguishing between the scenarios.

Finger input allows you to quickly and intuitively apply a certain amount of momentum to scrolling. On the iPhone, it scrolls at various speeds, depending on how you flicked it (when I wrote it's quicker, I was referring not to the speed of the scrolling itself, but rather how quickly and conveniently you can get it to scroll the way you want... though on that note it also allows for faster scrolling than my old stylus devices did).
I've haven't used the iPhone much (maybe 5 minutes), but I'm not sure how "intuitive" the speed would be. Is there a calibration system that allows setting how various flicks correspond to scrolling distances/speeds? If not, how does one know how far one will scroll based on a given flick?

Plus, a scroll bar easily indicates roughly where you are in the document and allows you to change your position in an absolute manner.

Of course, if you can solve the problem of distinguishing scrolling from selection, then nothing prevents Windows Mobile from implementing flick gestures, either. (In fact, I think several programs already do that, but probably in limited locations.) You could have the advantage of finger-friendly input with the improved precision of scroll bars (using my finger-friendly/stylus-friendly modes).

Steve

Pony99CA

01-22-2009, 12:14 AM

Not only that, but the fact that you don't need to navigate to a scrollbar (thanks to gesture recognition) is a major advantage.
Wow, "navigate" makes it sound like a difficult and time-consuming process; I would just say "move". Moving a distance of less than 4 inches is hardly "navigation". :)

Steve

Janak Parekh

01-22-2009, 12:18 AM

Wow, "navigate" makes it sound like a difficult and time-consuming process; I would just say "move". Moving a distance of less than 4 inches is hardly "navigation". :) Try shifting from typing on a thumbboard, for instance, to scrolling. With a WM device, unless you're really dexterous, you have to stop, pull out the stylus, move it to the scrollbar, and navigate.

Even if you're only doing stylus-based input, it's still some work to locate the down arrow or the scroll bar or the scroll region and tap. With touch scrolling, you just scroll anywhere on the screen and the gesture recognition picks it up immediately.

It's worth playing with an iPhone or an iPod touch to get a good feel for the scrolling physics embedded in the device.

--janak

Pony99CA

01-22-2009, 02:01 AM

It's worth playing with an iPhone or an iPod touch to get a good feel for the scrolling physics embedded in the device.
I'd love to. Have you got a spare one to send me? :)

On a more on-topic note, is Palm at risk of an Apple lawsuit (http://www.alleyinsider.com/2009/1/will-apple-sue-palms-pants-off) for their UI?

Steve

Deslock

01-22-2009, 03:20 AM

Then why doesn't the iPhone have it? ;)

I think the problem could be that they used swiping motions for scrolling, and thus can't use them for text selection. A dedicated area for scrolling (a scroll bar) allows distinguishing between the scenarios.

I've haven't used the iPhone much (maybe 5 minutes), but I'm not sure how "intuitive" the speed would be. Is there a calibration system that allows setting how various flicks correspond to scrolling distances/speeds? If not, how does one know how far one will scroll based on a given flick?

Plus, a scroll bar easily indicates roughly where you are in the document and allows you to change your position in an absolute manner.

Of course, if you can solve the problem of distinguishing scrolling from selection, then nothing prevents Windows Mobile from implementing flick gestures, either. (In fact, I think several programs already do that, but probably in limited locations.) You could have the advantage of finger-friendly input with the improved precision of scroll bars (using my finger-friendly/stylus-friendly modes).

Steve
Responding to your three main points:

What I wrote before (and you quoted) basically explains why the iPhone doesn't have a stylus: In short, Apple figured out how to implement exact cursor position with finger input (in a simple and convenient way) and for most users a stylus is more trouble than it's worth.

There is no problem with distinguishing between scrolling and selecting text with finger input. Search youtube for demos of the various copy/paste solutions currently available to jailbreak users (as well as videos demonstrating copy/paste concepts).

Dedicated scroll areas on a phone suck. Even when they're tiny, they pixels they take up would be better used for viewing content. And you have to be precise when you tap on them.

Wow, "navigate" makes it sound like a difficult and time-consuming process; I would just say "move". Moving a distance of less than 4 inches is hardly "navigation". :)

Steve
Using a stylus to select a tiny scroll bar obviously doesn't bother you, but scrolling with your finger anywhere on the screen is comparatively intuitive and convenient. As I mentioned in a previous post, a stylus is nice for a few types of applications (such as inputting complex characters or drawing) but otherwise is a clumsy and out-of-date interface on a phone.

Janak Parekh

01-22-2009, 06:16 AM

I'd love to. Have you got a spare one to send me? :) Stop by an Apple Store (or maybe a Best Buy, or Wal-Mart) next time you're out shopping and play with one. Seriously, they're everywhere.

On a more on-topic note, is Palm at risk of an Apple lawsuit (http://www.alleyinsider.com/2009/1/will-apple-sue-palms-pants-off) for their UI? We'll find out. I'd like to think Jon Rubenstein knows better than to ignore Apple, and has already talked to them.

--janak

Pony99CA

01-23-2009, 11:46 PM

What I wrote before (and you quoted) basically explains why the iPhone doesn't have a stylus: In short, Apple figured out how to implement exact cursor position with finger input (in a simple and convenient way) and for most users a stylus is more trouble than it's worth.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. The "it" I was referring to was copy/paste in the last sentence of the part I quoted. If copy/paste is so easy, why hasn't Apple added it yet?

Dedicated scroll areas on a phone suck. Even when they're tiny, they pixels they take up would be better used for viewing content. And you have to be precise when you tap on them.
They hardly suck. They're a metaphor any PC user is used to. Yes, they do take space, but you could probably make them auto-hide (similar to the option on the Windows task bar). (And, with the iPhone's larger display, scroll bars would take up less space than on your standard QVGA Windows Mobile devices. :))

However, scroll bars serve another purpose. They're a quick visual indicator of where you are in the document itself. That's useful information regardless if you use a stylus or not.

Some people respond that you could still show a scroll indicator that takes up less space than a scroll bar (and Windows Mobile Standard does that), but it doesn't work as well on touch systems. Thanks to people's experience with PCs, users think that anything that looks like a scroll bar should behave like one.

One job I had was testing a PC VOIP phone client that duplicated the look of a physical VOIP phone. The real phone has a directional pad for navigation and a touch screen with scroll indicators to indicate where in lists you are. You could tap an item on the screen to choose it, but you had to use the directional pad to scroll. I saw bug reports from people wondering why the scroll bar didn't work. The combination of the touch screen and scroll indicator made them think the indicator was actually a scroll bar control.

In fact, when I first started testing the PC version, I tried to use my mouse to scroll through the list. It was mentally jarring to discover that I couldn't and had to click the directional pad control just like on the real phone.

Another reason dedicated control areas don't suck is because it doesn't matter if you get fingerprints on them. How often does an iPhone user have to clean their screen from all of the touching? And, because the screen is touch sensitive, I assume you have to turn the phone "off" (or sleep or lock) to do that if you don't want unexpected actions to occur (although I'm not sure if that's true on a capacitance screen; it is on a resistive screen).

That's probably one reason the Pre has a dedicated gesture area.

Using a stylus to select a tiny scroll bar obviously doesn't bother you, but scrolling with your finger anywhere on the screen is comparatively intuitive and convenient.
I've agreed that it's more convenient (and have argued that Windows Mobile should support finger-friendly input). However, it's not quite as intuitive as you think.

I assume making a downward swipe on the screen scrolls you toward the bottom of the document, correct? That would imply that you're moving the viewport down on the document, but you could also argue that you could be moving the document itself down (and thus scrolling toward the top of the document).

In a scroll bar control, the scroll box (or thumb) represents your position in the document, and moving it directly indicates where you want your position to be. It's less ambiguous.

To be fair, the ambiguity isn't just with flick scrolling. The mouse wheel exhibits similar ambiguity (are you moving the viewport or the document?), as do some spin button controls (does clicking the down arrow reduce the value displayed or rotate the next number above the one displayed down into view like a car's odometer?).

Obviously, once you've done it a few times, you know what to expect, but it's still learned behavior, not intuition.

Again, I'm not opposed to touch scrolling. I just think the stylus provides additional flexibility (and maybe even speed in some cases) and scroll bars still have uses. Phones shouldn't require a stylus, but Windows Mobile Professional phones should still allow the option of using them.

Steve

Pony99CA

01-23-2009, 11:51 PM

Stop by an Apple Store (or maybe a Best Buy, or Wal-Mart) next time you're out shopping and play with one. Seriously, they're everywhere.
I know (and I've done that in the past), but I probably wouldn't have the time to make a real determination on whether a stylus could be eliminated or not. I like to live with something first.

When I tried the iPhone after it first came out, I focused mainly on typing and the browser. My wife, daughter and I weren't impressed with the typing experience (we were constantly using the backspace key), but maybe living with it would have gotten me used to it.

Steve

Janak Parekh

01-23-2009, 11:58 PM

They hardly suck. They're a metaphor any PC user is used to. Yes, they do take space, but you could probably make them auto-hide (similar to the option on the Windows task bar). The iPhone does show a scrolling indicator, but only while scrolling. And, no, I disagree; the space that it occupies is not optimal on a touch-oriented constrained screen, regardless of resolution.

Another reason dedicated control areas don't suck is because it doesn't matter if you get fingerprints on them. How often does an iPhone user have to clean their screen from all of the touching? Almost never in my case. When the screen is on, you don't see the fingerprints, and they wipe off in my pocket.

And, because the screen is touch sensitive, I assume you have to turn the phone "off" (or sleep or lock) to do that if you don't want unexpected actions to occur (although I'm not sure if that's true on a capacitance screen; it is on a resistive screen). It's much less likely on a capacitance screen, as it has to touch skin.

I've agreed that it's more convenient (and have argued that Windows Mobile should support finger-friendly input). However, it's not quite as intuitive as you think.

I assume making a downward swipe on the screen scrolls you toward the bottom of the document, correct? No, it does not. It scrolls in the direction of your swipe. It is incredibly intuitive and not the slightest bit ambiguous. Again, I strongly urge you try it out before making comparisons.

Obviously, once you've done it a few times, you know what to expect, but it's still learned behavior, not intuition. I can't speak for everyone, but I got it right the first time and didn't need to learn it.

--janak

Janak Parekh

01-23-2009, 11:59 PM

I know (and I've done that in the past), but I probably wouldn't have the time to make a real determination on whether a stylus could be eliminated or not. I like to live with something first. Still, most of the discussion we're having here would be cleared up with about 5-10 minutes' use of the device.

When I tried the iPhone after it first came out, I focused mainly on typing and the browser. My wife, daughter and I weren't impressed with the typing experience (we were constantly using the backspace key), but maybe living with it would have gotten me used to it. The keyboard indeed has a learning curve. The secret is to keep on typing with the typos; its autocorrect is extremely accurate.

--janak

Tim Williamson

01-24-2009, 12:03 AM

I agree with Janak's responses. Just go play with one for like 10 minutes and you'll see.

I actually type faster on the soft thumboard over a hardware thumboard because of the autocorrect. It really works quite well when you get used to it. I've gotten to the point where sometimes I don't even look at the keyboard, I just hit the keyboard in the general location of where I think the letter is.

Pony99CA

01-24-2009, 12:29 AM

No, it does not. It scrolls in the direction of your swipe. It is incredibly intuitive and not the slightest bit ambiguous. Again, I strongly urge you try it out before making comparisons.
How was my statement incorrect?

I assume making a downward swipe on the screen scrolls you toward the bottom of the document, correct?
I was giving a specific case with regard to direction, you just generalized it for any direction. Based on your statement, it sounds like mine was correct.

UPDATE: To avoid further discussion of scrolling ambiguity, read this (http://emperor.tidbits.com/TidBITS/Talk/1309/). You're a UNIX guy, right, so search for EMACS. We both guessed which way scrolling downward worked on the iPhone because we're probably conditioned by our use on PCs.

UPDATE AGAIN: Apparently I didn't guess correctly how it worked, as following posts show.

Steve

Janak Parekh

01-24-2009, 12:40 AM

How was my statement incorrect? A downward swipe scrolls you towards the top, an upward swipe scrolls you towards the bottom.

But, more fundamentally, if you think in these terms (i.e., movement of a viewport amongst a much larger model of data), you'll get confused. The swipe physics of devices like the iPhone make it much more intuitive. You don't think in terms of scrollbars or direction. Instead, thanks to the gesture, you think of something more physical, so it connects with your intuition at a lower, less conscious level.

--janak

Tim Williamson

01-24-2009, 12:48 AM

Pony99CA

01-24-2009, 12:51 AM

A downward swipe scrolls you towards the top, an upward swipe scrolls you towards the bottom.

But, more fundamentally, if you think in these terms (i.e., movement of a viewport amongst a much larger model of data), you'll get confused. The swipe physics of devices like the iPhone make it much more intuitive. You don't think in terms of scrollbars or direction. Instead, thanks to the gesture, you think of something more physical, so it connects with your intuition at a lower, less conscious level.
You posted too quickly; I had edited my post above but you must have been posting while I did it. :)

So swiping down is like pulling the document downward, exposing the earlier pages in the viewport? So I didn't guess correctly which way it worked. I guess that's proof that it's not so intuitive. ;)

Steve

Janak Parekh

01-24-2009, 12:53 AM

So swiping down is like pulling the document downward, exposing the earlier pages in the viewport? So I didn't guess correctly which way it worked. I guess that's proof that it's not so intuitive. ;) It is absolutely not proof. I'm stopping this discussion with you until you actually try it. I tried an attempt to explain above why this thought process is not useful in swipe scrolling, but if you disagree without having used both scrolling systems, we'll continue on an endless fruitless discussion.

--janak

Tim Williamson

01-24-2009, 12:54 AM

LOL, no it IS intuitive when you use the iPhone. Talking about it, it doesn't sound intuitive though. It's just like using the Hand in Acrobat Reader, you're grabbing onto the document and moving it around, just like moving a sheet of paper around in real life.

Deslock

01-24-2009, 12:55 AM

Sorry, I wasn't clear. The "it" I was referring to was copy/paste in the last sentence of the part I quoted. If copy/paste is so easy, why hasn't Apple added it yet?
Good question. I have no idea, but it's been implemented via jailbreaking so Apple's decision to leave it out has nothing to do with the lack of a stylus.

They hardly suck. They're a metaphor any PC user is used to. Yes, they do take space, but you could probably make them auto-hide (similar to the option on the Windows task bar). (And, with the iPhone's larger display, scroll bars would take up less space than on your standard QVGA Windows Mobile devices. :))

However, scroll bars serve another purpose. They're a quick visual indicator of where you are in the document itself. That's useful information regardless if you use a stylus or not.

{snip}

Another reason dedicated control areas don't suck is because it doesn't matter if you get fingerprints on them. How often does an iPhone user have to clean their screen from all of the touching? And, because the screen is touch sensitive, I assume you have to turn the phone "off" (or sleep or lock) to do that if you don't want unexpected actions to occur (although I'm not sure if that's true on a capacitance screen; it is on a resistive screen).

{snip}

I've agreed that it's more convenient (and have argued that Windows Mobile should support finger-friendly input). However, it's not quite as intuitive as you think.
Janak responded and I already wrote something to this effect, but to elaborate:
While the iPhone screen is large compared to most mobile devices, it's still small enough that every pixel counts.
If you want a visual indicator of document location on an iPhone, you simply move your finger slightly up and down and the scroll bar appears without moving the page.
Fingerprints are a non-issue.
There is nothing more intuitive for scrolling that I know of than finger swiping. In the case of the iPhone, everything on the phone (documents, lists, etc) is treated as an object that you're moving with your finger... no thought is required. The first time I tried the iPhone, I just tried it and it did what I wanted.
We're going in circles here so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I believe that always-visible scroll bars suck and you don't.

Pony99CA

01-24-2009, 12:55 AM

Slide finger up = Camera moves toward the bottom of the pic/doc/web page, while the pic/doc/web page physically moves up.

Slide finger down = Camera moves toward the top of the pic/doc/web page, while the pic/doc/web page physically moves down.

Go try an iPhone, you'll understand in the first 10 seconds lol. :)
I understand it now (I think :)), and it proved my point about "intuition" and ambiguity. I would never have guessed that swiping down did the opposite of dragging a scroll box down.

Steve

Pony99CA

01-24-2009, 01:53 AM

It is absolutely not proof. I'm stopping this discussion with you until you actually try it. I tried an attempt to explain above why this thought process is not useful in swipe scrolling, but if you disagree without having used both scrolling systems, we'll continue on an endless fruitless discussion.
OK, I've played with a friend's iPhone and it makes sense how it works. I selected an item in the mail list and dragged up; the item stayed selected and moved up with my finger. That makes perfect sense.

However, it would have also made sense if the next item up was selected and, when I reached the top of the screen, the window started to move up and the new topmost item got selected.

In fact, I tried a similar experiment on my Pocket PC. I selected an item in the Word Mobile document list and dragged my finger down and that selected each item that I dragged over (because the list supports multiple selection).

Do you agree that both models make sense? If so, then you should see why I think the system -- to a newcomer -- would be ambiguous. Either mental model is legitimate, and I think both can be learned easily enough, but neither one is intuitive (meaning able to be figured out by everybody before actually trying it). "Making sense" is not the same as "being intuitive".

It's also not about a "thought process" (which implies some conscious thinking going on); it's about our unconscious mental models (our understanding of how things work). The fact that my mental model led me astray about how the iPhone would work, while yours apparently didn't, illustrates that different people can have different mental models (with neither model, in general, being wrong).

I've heard that WM 6.5 is adding finger scrolling, and I wonder if it will work like selection does. If so, swiping down will move toward the bottom of the document.

So, to try to get back on topic :), does anybody know which way the Pre behaves?

Steve

Tim Williamson

01-24-2009, 02:44 AM

Pony99CA

01-24-2009, 03:15 AM

I can't believe you would argue it's not intuitive. Try this:

1. Place a piece of paper on the desk.
2. Attempt to move the paper up with your finger.

Did you move your finger down to make the paper move up?
Thanks for that simplistic explanation, as if I hadn't thought of that years ago. :rolleyes: Of course, you really don't need to scroll that paper, do you?

Consider a more accurate scenario, like a microfiche reader, which presents a window on a larger document. If the viewer is fixed, and you move the fiche, the iPhone model works. However, if the fiche is fixed and the viewer is what moves, it doesn't.

Or, in simpler terms, if you're reading a large book, do you move your head and eyes (the viewer) down to scan down the page or do you move the book up? I'll bet most people do the former.

The ambiguity comes because the user can't be sure if he's directly manipulating the (representation of the) document or the viewer.

Are you claiming my "slide your finger to select items" model is worse than the iPhone's "slide to move the document" model? If so, doesn't the iPhone's keyboard use the slide-to-select model? ;)

I don't get what the problem is. You'd think I'd insulted your mother or something the way you responded. I'm not saying either model is bad (in fact, I said the iPhone's made sense) or hard, just that it's not as intuitive as claimed. The fact that I guessed wrong at the model illustrates that two different people might try two different things.

Steve

Janak Parekh

01-24-2009, 06:49 AM

Do you agree that both models make sense? If so, then you should see why I think the system -- to a newcomer -- would be ambiguous. You are now making a different argument. I was talking strictly about the scroll model, as were you. Once you use the device, the model is readily apparent and intuitive, and doesn't need learning beyond the first touch.

This is not just my experience; I know quite a few other people who have iPhones, plus other posters here, all of which agree.

Either mental model is legitimate, and I think both can be learned easily enough, but neither one is intuitive (meaning able to be figured out by everybody before actually trying it). "Making sense" is not the same as "being intuitive". I disagree it has to be learned per se. Once you touch it and your assumptions are cleared, you don't need to learn anything. We can play a semantics game as to intuition and learning, but it's not worth it to me. I'm going to have to agree with Deslock and stop debating this with you.

The fact that my mental model led me astray about how the iPhone would work, while yours apparently didn't, illustrates that different people can have different mental models (with neither model, in general, being wrong). You are the first person that I know that's brought this up.

I've heard that WM 6.5 is adding finger scrolling, and I wonder if it will work like selection does. If so, swiping down will move toward the bottom of the document. I doubt it. I believe all of the third-party scroll models (I've used the HTC) follow the iPhone model. Android does the same thing, as does Palm.

So, to try to get back on topic :), does anybody know which way the Pre behaves? Watch the video from CES (it's on Palm's website). It works exactly the same as the iPhone. Which is the only reasonable touch scroll metaphor, selection notwithstanding.

--janak

Tim Williamson

01-24-2009, 07:02 AM

Consider a more accurate scenario, like a microfiche reader, which presents a window on a larger document. If the viewer is fixed, and you move the fiche, the iPhone model works. However, if the fiche is fixed and the viewer is what moves, it doesn't.

What's a microfiche? J/K ;)

Pony99CA

01-24-2009, 11:24 PM

What's a microfiche? J/K ;)
The only real-world device I could think of that fit. :D

Steve

Pony99CA

01-24-2009, 11:59 PM

You are now making a different argument. I was talking strictly about the scroll model, as were you. Once you use the device, the model is readily apparent and intuitive, and doesn't need learning beyond the first touch.
Saying something is apparent "once you use it" may be quite true, but it also means that it's not "intuitive" (basically meaning you know how it works before you use it).

I disagree it has to be learned per se. Once you touch it and your assumptions are cleared, you don't need to learn anything. We can play a semantics game as to intuition and learning, but it's not worth it to me.
Yes, it's a matter of semantics, but it's similar to the difference between "easy to learn" and "easy to use", which also aren't the same thing. (And "easy to learn" is not the same as "intuitive", either. :))

By the way, those assumptions you want cleared are what make intuition work. Intuition is all about having your assumptions match reality.

You are the first person that I know that's brought this up.
It's nice to be first at something. :) Other people have questioned Apple fans' (mis)use of the word "intuitive", though. Read Adam Lein's The Truth About Intuitiveness (http://discuss.pocketnow.com/showthread.php?threadid=22769), for example. (And, yes, he does seem to go off into the weeds at times by mentioning efficiency, which doesn't have much to do with intuitiveness....)

Watch the video from CES (it's on Palm's website). It works exactly the same as the iPhone.
I generally don't watch computer videos. I can't at work and at home I usually have the TV on. :) Thanks for answering my question about the Pre's scrolling model, even with the dig about it being the only "reasonable" metaphor. ;)

Steve

Pony99CA

01-25-2009, 12:20 AM

OK, I just conducted an experiment to see if I was completely out in left field here. I asked my daughter if she knew the iPhone had touch scrolling. She said she did. I gave her my iPAQ (as I don't have an iPhone) and told her to pretend she was at the top of a Web page. I asked her how she would move her finger to get to the bottom of the Web page.

She put her finger at the top of the screen and moved it downward.

The really interesting thing came next, though. After I said the iPhone didn't behave like that, she said, "You move your finger up?" I said yes, and she said, "That's how my Voyager works." She has an LG Voyager, which has a touch screen and uses the iPhone's scrolling model, and she still thought you'd pull down on an iPhone to scroll downward. She also said that she didn't like the way the Voyager worked.

The point is that intuition is personal; what's natural to one person may not be to another. Can we at least accept that? Even if the iPhone and Pre's model makes more sense to the majority of people, it might not to everybody.

That's a good reason for user interface developers to provide an option to change things. Letting the user choose what works best for them is best, I think, instead of having a one-size-fits-all approach.

Steve

Tim Williamson

01-25-2009, 12:56 AM

Okay, maybe the iPhone isn't "intuitive" since if you were raised using Pocket PC, then you're used to moving your stylus down to scroll down. But the iPhone scrolling is easy to use and understand after you've used it for 2 seconds.

Sorry, but I still don't get how moving your finger down to scroll down is easy to use, so would you move your finger left to scroll right?

I think you're just trying to be difficult now. ;)

Okay, how about this example, pretend you're a Greek and you have a scroll in front of you that you're readin, which way do you move the paper to continue reading past the bottom of the scroll?

Pony99CA

01-25-2009, 02:15 AM

Okay, maybe the iPhone isn't "intuitive" since if you were raised using Pocket PC, then you're used to moving your stylus down to scroll down.
Exactly. And it's not just scroll bars, either. On a PC, pressing the Page Down and down arrows keys move you down the document, too. My main device is actually a Windows Mobile Smartphone (the Motorola Q9m), which has a directional pad but no touchscreen, and I press down to move down and up to move up.

So "down" actions in my mind are associated with moving down, so I assumed moving your finger down also moved you down the document.

I asked my wife the same question I asked my daughter. She said she'd put her finger on the right and move the bar down. When I said the iPhone didn't have scroll bars, she said she'd move her finger down, too.

Remember that every Mac and PC user is probably familiar with scroll bars, which is why I think all three of us thought the iPhone would work differently than it really does.

But the iPhone scrolling is easy to use and understand after you've used it for 2 seconds.
I don't disagree, and said that the iPhone model made sense. I'm just trying to point out that it's not obvious beforehand (and therefore not intuitive). It's certainly easily learned, though.

Sorry, but I still don't get how moving your finger down to scroll down is easy to use, so would you move your finger left to scroll right?
No, I'd move my finger to the right to scroll right (just like I'd move finger down to scroll down). On the iPhone, though, it sounds like you do move your finger left to scroll right, so I don't get your point.

I think you're just trying to be difficult now. ;)
No, I'm trying to get people to understand that "intuition" is not universal and "intuitive" is not the same as "easy to learn".

I'm not saying the iPhone's method is "wrong" or anything. Both methods are 'right" depending on your expectations, and somebody expecting one way will find the other way non-intuitive.

Okay, how about this example, pretend you're a Greek and you have a scroll in front of you that you're readin, which way do you move the paper to continue reading past the bottom of the scroll?
Obviously, I'd move the paper up, but that's because I'm manipulating the document and there's no separate viewport involved. The computing device is like a viewport, so it's less obvious when making a gesture whether you're interacting with the document or the viewport.

For example, if a motion sensor controlled scrolling (maybe it does on the iPhone?), if I moved the device to the right, I'd expect to see the right part of the document; if I moved the device down, I'd expect to see the bottom part of the document.

Steve