Can Windows Mobile Regain User Enthusiasm In 2009? [Archive]

Ed Hansberry

12-30-2008, 07:15 PM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.ehansberry.com/pages/ppctpolls.html' target='_blank'>http://www.ehansberry.com/pages/ppctpolls.html</a> </div>With the release of the iPhone in 2007, upgraded to 3G in 2008, the release of Google's G1 on the T-Mobile network and Windows Mobile seemingly treading water for a few years, user enthusiasm for the platform seems to have waned recently. RIM isn't sitting still either as both the Blackberry Storm and Bold have given users more than just push email.We've all seen rumored screen shots and articles on Windows Mobile 6.5 and 7.0, as well as <a href="http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/02/19/Microsoft-looking-to-converge-Windows-Mobile-Zune_1.html" target="_blank">purported integration of Zune bits</a> to replace Windows Media Player on the devices, though no real timelines or confirmations of anything have surfaced. Do you think Microsoft can turn the tide with new releases and regain some of the enthusiasm surrounding their platform they enjoyed in previous years?<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" width="450" height="300" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0"><param name="wmode" value="transparent" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><param name="flashvars" value="debugMode=0&dataURL=http://www.micropoll.com/akira/MicroPollChartData?id=128668" /><param name="src" value="http://www.micropoll.com/images/fusionchart/Pie2D.swf" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="300" src="http://www.micropoll.com/images/fusionchart/Pie2D.swf" wmode="transparent" flashvars="debugMode=0&dataURL=http://www.micropoll.com/akira/MicroPollChartData?id=128668" allowscriptaccess="always"></embed></object><a href="http://www.micropoll.com">Website Polls</a> Powered By <a href="http://www.micropoll.com">MicroPoll</a><a href="http://www.ehansberry.com/pages/ppctpolls.html" target="_blank">Click here to vote</a>. It is a free poll at my site - a simple yes/no vote. I look forward to additional comments in the forum.

Ed Hansberry

12-30-2008, 07:36 PM

Note to self. Don't change the poll color as it will erase the previous results. http://www.ehansberry.com/ppct/rolleyes.gif

Damion Chaplin

12-30-2008, 07:56 PM

I voted 'No', but only because of the wording of the question. Do I think MS can 'recapture' (i.e. win back previously-disgruntled WM users) user enthusiasm? No.

Do I think they have a chance of capturing new customers? Yes, provided they can actually make something that appeals to the mass market.

Do I think they could produce something that would make me go "Sweet!", sure, provided they get their act together.

I was not one of those people that jumped-ship just because Apple or Google released a new fancy OS. WM is still as powerful as ever, even though it may have become a bit stale of late.

Maybe it's my California showing, but I'd much rather dip my stale sourdough (Windows Mobile) into my hot soup (TouchFlo) than eat mouldy white bread (Palm OS), 9-grain bread with no butter (Android) or nothing but sweet, sweet cinnamon roll with no nutrients (OSX iPhone). And who knows, maybe the new batch of sourdough (WM7) won't require dipping it in soup to make it edible.

Did I carry that too far? ;)

caywen

12-30-2008, 07:58 PM

I very much doubt Microsoft will even release WinMo7 in 2009. The most that will happen is that they will provide some information and a few more screenshots will leak. But here's a summary of why I think Microsoft has no 2009 game:

- WinMo7 won't be released in 2009
- WinMo 6.5 will mostly be prettified WinMo 6.1, with very little in the way of anything super compelling to get iPhone users to switch back.
- Microsoft will continue to play primadonna and refuse to provide the developers that support them anything useful.
- Apple will release compelling new iPhone products this year (possible iPhone nano, or iPhone 4G).
- Microsoft will continue to lose their luster with HTC and Motorola, who will likely adopt Android more and more to avoid licensing fees while providing users a better experience.
- Palm might ditch WinMo in favor of their Nova OS.

I think in 2010, Microsoft will essentially reboot their mobile strategy, and may find some success in that - IFF WinMo7 can:

- Get rid of all that horrible sluggishness
- Mandate decent 3D acceleration with good baseline features
- Without the game developers, they will go nowhere
- Set a baseline: A powerful GPU more capable than PowerVR MBX, 128MB RAM, 600mhz ARM
- Offer OpenGL alongside DirectX to get iPhone devs to port all their stuff back to WinMo7
- Subset the Win32 API and provide both a consistent C++ and .NET API
- Provide a true AppStore competitor, while giving devs huge incentives for offering their products

doogald

12-30-2008, 08:07 PM

I am one Win Mo customer that will ditch the platform when my contact is up December 15.

Yes, I am counting the days.

RogueSpear

12-30-2008, 08:28 PM

I think that they could recapture enthusiasm in the enterprise market, specifically those who run Microsoft centric operations. But then again they could release a ham sandwich, label it Windows Mobile 7, and still sell millions. If you are using anything other than Exchange and MS Office then it doesn't make too much sense.

That there are some rumblings of Zune integration indicates that someone over there recognizes that WM has lost the consumer market. If you ignore the fact the Zune itself is a complete failure, the fact that they haven't confirmed that it will be integrated, says they don't even care about the consumer market anymore or have pragmatically handed it to Apple and Google.

Microsoft has kind of painted itself into a box. Like I said they should be almost totally successful with MS enterprise customers (who takes the iPhone seriously when it comes to Exchange). But who else will they be a hit with? Doesn't look pretty does it? I used to be a Microsoft evangelist myself, but they never seemed to have heard the old saying "a successful parasite does not kill it's host".

martin_ayton

12-30-2008, 08:34 PM

I voted 'no' because I don't believe that MS will release WinMo7 in '09, or at least not early enough in '09 to have a significant impact. I echo the comments about 6.5 above - it is very unlikely to change the game.

I still like WinMo: For all it's faults it still does more of what I want / need it to than any other mobile OS. However, the others are coming up fast and when someone else produces a better tool (for my needs) than MS, I'll jump ship without a backwards glance. You want loyalty? Get a dog...

In the meantime, since I've mentioned 'faults' above, here's my (shortened) list of the ones that I really, really want to see fixed in WinMo7:

1) Having a more open attitude to developers than some other OS manufacturers means that apps will be available which won't play nice with other apps or the specific device. It's inevitable, and it isn't MS's fault. What *is* their fault is how darned difficult it is to cleanly remove potentially troublesome apps, or to hard reset and then restore app-by-app from backups rather than having to clean re-install with the loss of all settings.

1a) OS updates / bug fixes must be more readily available (free or to buy), and easy to install without having to hard-reset and (see above...). Letting carriers dictate this is an old and broken model. It's over, so move on and offer us something better.

2) If MS is going to sell a combined 'phone / PDA (and I'm glad they do), then the 'phone functionality *must* be protected from everything else. If an app starts to misbehave or the registry gets messed up or whatever, the 'phone must continue to work, and work well - even if it's the *only* thing that still works. Oh, and by "'phone" I mean "'phone and related, tightly integrated 'phone features" like bluetooth headset / handsfree profiles.

The rest can (has, and probably should) be dealt with by developers. These, in my view, are the minimum that MS must deliver to even being to 'regain user enthusiasm.'

Happy New Year!

JesterMania

12-30-2008, 08:51 PM

Windows Mobile is definitely slipping for sure with its dated Windows 3.1 look-and-feel - no custom interface can really hide that. In my opinion, the biggest competition to WM is probably Android. At least from what I feel reading around the internet (blogs, news sites, forums, etc.) Android is pretty much set to snatch away the only real advantage WM brings above all other platforms - tons of custom apps. Even Symbian S60 is getting a huge lift with the new S60 5th Edition devices such as the soon-to-be-released N97.

I'm not going to really mention the iPhone as I don't feel that many more people are moving towards this device other than the initial surge. However, I feel (at least here in Canada) that BlackBerry is gaining a far-greater fan base with their Bold and Storm. If they had more custom apps like WM, they would be even more of a threat as well.

If Microsoft doesn't do something drastic in WM7, I can see them really struggling versus Android in 6-months to a year from now. Integration of services is fine but everyone I know has an iPod and not a Zune (although I'm quite sure it's a perfectly great device). They need to concentrate on just redesigning the OS from scratch as no integration is going to save it in its current state. Some may argue that WM is just very customizable (registry, etc.) but 99.5% of the population is not interested in this.

efjay

12-30-2008, 09:25 PM

I voted No but a more important question comes to mind - did WM ever have any user enthusiasm in the first place? The only people who ever seemed to be pro-WM were people who posted on sites like PPCT and visited XDA, the real geeky type of phone user. The average joe was going for feature phones and did not know or even care what OS their phone was running and if you told them they could buy a phone running Windows they would probably have run a mile.

Sadly even today with the iphone and Android being hotly desired platforms I still cant see anyone outside our "community" being enthusiastic about having a phone running Windows, the perceived value is not the same as having an iphone, which is considered the coolest smartphone or an Android phone which is considered the most open platform. What would be the distinctive, appealing feature/s of WM that would inspire genuine enthusiasm? I really dont think MS has the desire or resolve to make WM such an awesome OS that people would really feel they had to have a device running the OS, though they certainly are technically capable of doing so. They just always seem so totally focused on their desktop and enterprise products that their mobile offering is left to limp along, barely keeping up with the competition but not really pushing forward in any way.

jbharman45

12-30-2008, 09:51 PM

I have probably had a Windows CE, Pocket PC, Windows Mobile device for more than 12 or 13 years. Earlier this month, I gave up and threw in the towel. I moved to the Blackberry Storm and have quite enjoyed it. Interestingly enough, my wife decided to move to a Smartphone from a dump phone, and after her research, she decided to purchase on Omnia. Interesting. I can have my cake and eat it too. Boy, I sure am glad I jumped ship! This is the best that WinMo has to offer? I am sick that nothing has changed much at all in nearly 5 years. I give up on Microsoft...

virain

12-30-2008, 09:53 PM

I voted Yes, because I did jump the ship and switched to G1, but even if it looks prettier that WM, it locks functionality BIG TIME! And yes! , it does crashes, freezes, and slags! So all of those ppl who complain about WM "outdated UI" remember old saying: "Don't judge book by its cover". You don't like standard UI, get 3rd party. I am going back to WM in 2009, to bad there is not one good WM device comes out with T-Mobile 3G :(

cab124

12-30-2008, 09:55 PM

I am one Win Mo customer that will ditch the platform when my contact is up December 15.

Yes, I am counting the days.

What are the main things you see yourself gaining by making the jump?

doogald

12-30-2008, 10:11 PM

What are the main things you see yourself gaining by making the jump?

Hopefully:

1. A browser that works faster than an 8086 running Win95.
2. A calendar that does not hide important fields in the UI, like, oh, say, the CATEGORIES
3. A phone that I will not find powered off in my pocket with plenty of battery left
4. A phone with more than a measly 128 MB of onboard RAM
5. A phone that works well as a phone
6. A phone that, if I need to hard reset it for some reason, will automatically reinstall all apps and data without spending a few hours (including entering in registration data)

And, actually most importantly,

6. A phone that will reliably sync my PIM data without erasing stuff, doubling up stuff, or giving me an incoherent error message whose meaning I need to research on a poor support site

JesterMania

12-30-2008, 10:51 PM

Sadly even today with the iphone and Android being hotly desired platforms I still cant see anyone outside our "community" being enthusiastic about having a phone running Windows

Even within our community, there are people such as myself who no longer use a Windows Mobile device and are switching away. I am pretty happy with my Nokia N95 - Symbian S60 FP1. ;)

Bob Anderson

12-31-2008, 01:52 AM

I voted yes and, no, I don't work for MSFT or have any NDA information!!!

Microsoft is tired of being beaten to death by Apple and probably more important, they don't invest in market share to only have it slip and go away. They can take a decade of hard work and investment (I'm thinking MSN) and finally give up, but with WinMo, they correctly read the market and moved from PDA to PDA + Phone and grew market share. They won't allow that to disappear, but may allow a temporary dip.

My belief is that WM 6.5 is a non-event. I can't imagine anything that would create buzz for MSFT in that release. But hot on the heels, and I believe in 2009, they are going to go to 7.0 and this will be something big. Part of the reason things are so quiet in the MSFT mobile space is that resources are busy, not just busy - but critically busy, these people know that if they don't knock someone's socks off this time their marketshare will disappear. With the competition in phones right now, and the volumes sold each year, heads will roll, careers will be ended if MSFT doesn't pull out a miracle. The biz is simply becoming too valuable.

Why do I believe this? I compare this to the transition between Windows 3.1 and Windows 95. While MSFT was pushing hard to create W95, IBM beat them to market with, by many accounts a superior OS called OS/2 Warp. It came out months earlier - and it had pre-emptive multitasking and all kinds of cool things. Many machines could run it. Microsoft kept to it's plan, and within 6-9 months blew OS/2 right out of the water with Win 95. For those of us using computers, the leap from Win 3.1 at the time to W95 was like going from a Motorola Star-Tac to a Apple iPhone. The same can and will be true for Windows Mobile 7.

So, yes, MSFT can recapture excitement and marketshare. They will do it late in 2009. It will be big - and many of us using the older versions of WinMo will be ticked because of compatibility issues. In the end, however, a revoultion is underway in Redmond. I can't wait!

Pony99CA

12-31-2008, 02:08 AM

I'm not going to really mention the iPhone as I don't feel that many more people are moving towards this device other than the initial surge.
The initial surge was when the first iPhone was released, right? So either that initial surge has lasted a long time or you're simply wrong. How else do you explain the iPhone surpassing both Windows Mobile and BlackBerry this year to take the #2 share of the smart phone market?

Microsoft hoped it would just be hardcore Apple people who bought the iPhone, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Steve

Pony99CA

12-31-2008, 02:35 AM

I voted No but a more important question comes to mind - did WM ever have any user enthusiasm in the first place? The only people who ever seemed to be pro-WM were people who posted on sites like PPCT and visited XDA, the real geeky type of phone user.
Are you serious? The user enthusiasm is evident from the people who started (and are still starting) dozens of Pocket PC/Windows Mobile sites and the hundreds of thousands who post there. Even if you're right that only the people who posted on those sites were enthusiastic about it (and I'm not sure you are -- there are probably people who like their Windows Mobile devices but don't know about these sites), I think you're engaging in circular reasoning with that argument.

The average joe was going for feature phones and did not know or even care what OS their phone was running and if you told them they could buy a phone running Windows they would probably have run a mile.
Remember that Windows Mobile wasn't just about phones. It was about PDAs, too, and plenty of people used Palm and Pocket PC devices (until that market segment got converged with phones).

Sadly even today with the iphone and Android being hotly desired platforms I still cant see anyone outside our "community" being enthusiastic about having a phone running Windows, the perceived value is not the same as having an iphone, which is considered the coolest smartphone or an Android phone which is considered the most open platform.
I'll accept that the iPhone gets sales for being the coolest phone, but how many people do you really believe want to buy Android phones because it's the "most open" platform? Using that logic, Linux PCs should have swept Windows PCs (and Macs) out the door, but that hasn't happened.

I'm sure Android will sell phones, but because it has cool apps or runs on cool hardware platforms, not just because it's "open". That's exactly what sells the iPhone and even Windows Mobile devices, too.

What would be the distinctive, appealing feature/s of WM that would inspire genuine enthusiasm?
If you're asking from a historical point of view (which is how your post started), a lot -- Exchange support, a media player, a Web browser (probably the best built-in browser until the iPhone), mobile office support, great developer support, etc.

If you're asking about the future, a great UI with the best support for Exchange and other Microsoft services (Zune Marketplace, Live Mesh, etc.) combined with the largest choice in hardware and carriers and a good developer network that has produced thousands of outstanding applications. That last is what kept Palm so popular even after the OS itself stagnated. Even better, Windows Mobile already has most of those features, only missing the great UI (which I don't think is really that bad) and the integration with some of the services (like Zune Marketplace).

Android and maybe Symbian are the only platforms that have a chance at matching the diversity of hardware of Windows Mobile. Apple and RIM won't make their platforms open to other hardware vendors and I doubt Palm will, either (even if other OEMs want Nova).

I really dont think MS has the desire or resolve to make WM such an awesome OS that people would really feel they had to have a device running the OS, though they certainly are technically capable of doing so. They just always seem so totally focused on their desktop and enterprise products that their mobile offering is left to limp along, barely keeping up with the competition but not really pushing forward in any way.
Actually, until Microsoft surpassed Palm, they were pushing things forward. I think when they finally beat Palm, they rested on their laurels. I also think Microsoft can recover. Whether they will or not is another question and depends on what we see in WM 6.5 and WM 7.

Steve

Stinger

12-31-2008, 04:20 AM

I'm skeptical.

Windows Mobile has been around for a long time now and it hasn't changed significantly in 6 years. Windows Mobile 7 looks interesting but I don't know whether it'll be enough.

Is the market big enough to support Apple, Nokia, Google, RIM and Microsoft in the long run? I'm not so sure. I think it'll eventually reduce to three major platforms. If Microsoft wants to be one of them, they need to act quickly and act big.

If you're asking from a historical point of view (which is how your post started), a lot --... a Web browser (probably the best built-in browser until the iPhone)...

PIE is laughable compared to Nokia's WebKit browser and the version of Opera pre-installed on some phones. It was no-where near the best even before the iPhone was released. It really typifies the whole suite of built-in apps for WinMo that haven't seen significant development since dinosaurs walked the earth.

RogueSpear

12-31-2008, 04:27 AM

I'll accept that the iPhone gets sales for being the coolest phone, but how many people do you really believe want to buy Android phones because it's the "most open" platform? Using that logic, Linux PCs should have swept Windows PCs (and Macs) out the door, but that hasn't happened.
I am a recovering WM user with an iPhone. The iPhone really impressed me, until I realized that it couldn't do anything (pre 2.x firmware) and that Bluetooth was completely crippled (sadly it still is). When my contract runs out on the iPhone, I might even pay a graduated ETF, Android is where I'm headed and one of the principle reasons is that it's the "most open" platform.

If you're asking from a historical point of view (which is how your post started), a lot -- Exchange support, a media player, a Web browser (probably the best built-in browser until the iPhone), mobile office support, great developer support, etc.
After using Vista for a few months during it's beta and RC cycles I said that Microsoft's best days were behind it. I had no idea at the time how prophetic that would be. I don't know about anyone else, but the people I run into at trade shows, security seminars, and so forth are slowly weaning themselves off of the Kool Aid Microsoft has been selling in mobile, desktop, server, and cloud categories.

I'm not 100% sure what went wrong and where with them, but one thing I can point to is the constant nickel and diming of their long time customers. In this economy particularly, the well has run dry and not as many are willing to pay handsomely for substandard software.

Pony99CA

12-31-2008, 04:59 AM

PIE is laughable compared to Nokia's WebKit browser and the version of Opera pre-installed on some phones. It was no-where near the best even before the iPhone was released.
When did Nokia start installing that browser on their devices? And, unless I'm mistaken, Opera wasn't preinstalled on any Windows Mobile devices until well after the iPhone came out. Was Opera pre-installed on other devices?

However, let's assume my timeline is off and go back a bit further then. PIE was the best pre-installed browser in 2006, 2005, 2004. Pick a number that fits. :)

It's certainly dated now, but for most of its life, it was the best mobile browser that came on any device. Like Windows Mobile, though, Microsoft rested on their laurels too long.

Steve

Pony99CA

12-31-2008, 05:02 AM

I am a recovering WM user with an iPhone. The iPhone really impressed me, until I realized that it couldn't do anything (pre 2.x firmware) and that Bluetooth was completely crippled (sadly it still is). When my contract runs out on the iPhone, I might even pay a graduated ETF, Android is where I'm headed and one of the principle reasons is that it's the "most open" platform.
OK, we've got one person. Do I hear two? ;)

Seriously, though, do you believe most of the mobile market will behave like that? If openness is so important, why haven't Linux PCs dominated yet?

Steve

RogueSpear

12-31-2008, 05:58 AM

If openness is so important, why haven't Linux PCs dominated yet?
Open is important and it's gaining more and more traction. Open is getting better and Microsoft is not. I've been working with Microsoft software at all levels for the past twenty years. There was a time when they were just about the only game in town; result -> antitrust. One would think as the years go on that Microsoft's software would only get better. Unfortunately this is not the case.

In the public sector, and by extension what the public sector both purchases and subcontracts, is leaning toward open source for a myriad of reasons. See when you pay big time for licensing and then find out that you must pay big time for the support, well eventually you find that paying for the support and leaving the licensing behind isn't such a bad proposition. This goes for SaS too. Take a look at some of Microsoft's offerings vs. the open sauce based SaS. Interesting tidbit - debacles with electronic voting machines, computerized breathalyzers, and the White House email system seem to have set the wheels in motion for a solid argument in favor of FOSS in terms of both policy and legal ruling.

One of the things holding back Linux on the desktop adoption are custom applications. However, that cuts both ways. There are a huge number of legacy custom apps that won't play nice with Vista. In my case this means that we're migrating those apps to be browser based. Fortunately most of the good general use applications that people need have excellent cross platform FOSS alternatives (like how OOo saved my organization over $65K), are cross platform already (Adobe Reader, Google Earth), or are web based (Google apps). And now that those scenarios are actually gaining some traction, I think that Microsoft's dominance will begin to slowly erode.

Rocco Augusto

12-31-2008, 09:35 AM

I'll accept that the iPhone gets sales for being the coolest phone, but how many people do you really believe want to buy Android phones because it's the "most open" platform? Using that logic, Linux PCs should have swept Windows PCs (and Macs) out the door, but that hasn't happened.

I'm sure Android will sell phones, but because it has cool apps or runs on cool hardware platforms, not just because it's "open". That's exactly what sells the iPhone and even Windows Mobile devices, too.

According to HTC, by the end of the year it predicts one million G1's sold. And you can't use that Linux desktop logic here, that is like comparing apples to oranges. Linux on the desktop hasn't caught on because it is difficult for the Average Joe to pick up and figure out. Android doesn't have that problem as it was built around the idea of being simple to use. If *nix desktops were a lot simpler to use people would buy them. Heck people are flocking over to Apple computers and aren't they BSD based?

People are buying the G1 now not because the system is open but because the device as marketed as the "Internet in your pocket" and it handles the Internet aspect wonderfully.

To answer the initial question though, Microsoft could easily start generating buzz and excitement in 2009 by giving their users what they have been asking for all these years and at the same time secretly releasing some screenshots of feature sets of upcoming releases. I say secretly releasing since everyone is always more interested in information that made its way out without being officially released.

It is hard for people to be excited about the unknown. In fact people are downright terrified of the unknown. Until we know more about the next versions of Windows Mobile I highly doubt people will get pumped for it.

benjimen

12-31-2008, 10:08 AM

I ditched WM and got a G1 when they came out, and because of the build quality I returned it for another, then another, and 1 more before I gave up and returned to my WM device.

Android was OK, but in many ways made me appreciate WM more. The Contact app was a bit of an afterthought, with no birthday and anniversary date fields and inability to search/sort by company name, made it even more frustrating to use. Birthdays and anniversaries had to be maintained separately of the Contact app, etc. It was fun to play around with it for a while, but Exchange/WM push is worlds ahead of Android/Google push...

Whatever works for what you need...

virain

12-31-2008, 11:47 AM

Hopefully:

1. A browser that works faster than an 8086 running Win95.
2. A calendar that does not hide important fields in the UI, like, oh, say, the CATEGORIES
3. A phone that I will not find powered off in my pocket with plenty of battery left
4. A phone with more than a measly 128 MB of onboard RAM
5. A phone that works well as a phone
6. A phone that, if I need to hard reset it for some reason, will automatically reinstall all apps and data without spending a few hours (including entering in registration data)

And, actually most importantly,

6. A phone that will reliably sync my PIM data without erasing stuff, doubling up stuff, or giving me an incoherent error message whose meaning I need to research on a poor support site

Dream On! :)

virain

12-31-2008, 12:01 PM

The initial surge was when the first iPhone was released, right? So either that initial surge has lasted a long time or you're simply wrong. How else do you explain the iPhone surpassing both Windows Mobile and BlackBerry this year to take the #2 share of the smart phone market?

Microsoft hoped it would just be hardcore Apple people who bought the iPhone, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Steve

I have to disagree. First iPhone locked very important features such as GPS, 3G, 3rd party apps (official) etc... That discouraged a lot of people, so the first iPhone came out "half baked" and all the hype and noise came from Apple fanboyz, who were dreaming about this device for a decade. Second edition came out "complete" and that's when the "regular joe" start buying it aggressively, and that's was the real surge. Now it's pretty much over. AT&T has it for $99 new, and $50 refurbished.

virain

12-31-2008, 12:19 PM

OK, we've got one person. Do I hear two? ;)

Seriously, though, do you believe most of the mobile market will behave like that? If openness is so important, why haven't Linux PCs dominated yet?

Steve

From my personal experience: Google's Android is as much open as WM may be less! Words "OPEN PLATFORM" are just a catch Fraze, marketing trick. The fact that it has Linux in its core doesn't change that fact. And if you think that MS serving to carriers is bad wait for Android to unveil all its "OPENNESS" Here's post that I copied from T-Mo News http://www.tmonews.com/2008/12/upcoming-phones-for-q1/ Reply #12:

# robert Says:
December 30th, 2008 at 2:26 pm

Hi everyone,

Let you know I got a email listed below that the G1 will NOT be getting the cupcake update as widely reported. Read below.

The cupcake will not come out on the G1. I got this email below today.

From: Jean-Baptiste Queru
To: [email protected]
Subject: [repo-discuss] Re: Extracting platform code base prior to cupcake
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:46:20 +0100

Being able to run custom-built systems that are very close to a
shipping device would definiteely valuable, but there are two hurdles
that made that impractical or impossible for the G1:

-The source code for the underying platform that powers the G1 was not
releasable “as is”. The additional amount of work that would have been
necessary there would have gotten in the way of being able to
open-source cupcake. We preferred to get the cupcake tree out so that
the issue would be less likely to re-appear.

-The G1 contains a significant number of proprietary applications,
drivers, etc… that aren’t part of the core Android Open-Source
Project. Even if the source code for the 1.0 platform that powers the
G1 was released, you’d still be missing many parts to turn the base
platform into something that exactly matches what shipped on the G1.

Cupcake sets a base that should reduce the impact of the first aspect,
with the open-source tree being hopefully eventually close (or
identical) to the underlying platform of the stuff that ends up on
consumer devices.

JBQ

On 12/23/08, sandy8531 wrote:
>
> On Dec 23, 9:34 am, Shawn Pearce wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 21:52, sandy8531 wrote:
>>
>> > Now the question remains, what would I need to do to get code that
>> > corresponds to a currently running build number on the G1 ?
>>
>> The branch the G1 is built from hasn’t been exported back out to Git since
>> the initial open source release. Recent changes are all merged down into
>> cupcake, and are available in the open cupcake branch, but they aren’t
>> broken out from the cupcake specific changes. Right now I know of no
>> plans
>> to re-export the 1.0 branch, because that is effectively in maintenance
>> mode
>> and all activity is on cupcake.
>
> Oh that is unfortunate. It is incredibly useful for application
> developers to get access to production builds and their ability to
> simulate bugs and work through problems.
> If it is not getting exported to Git, can the production source,
> alternatively, be made available in a read only mode, e.g. it gets
> pushed to some public code server post a build. This would allow me
> to recreate the customer problem on my test systems.
>
>

–
Jean-Baptiste M. “JBQ” Queru
Android Engineer, Google.

Stinger

12-31-2008, 01:13 PM

When did Nokia start installing that browser on their devices?

A quick Google says March 2006.

And, unless I'm mistaken, Opera wasn't preinstalled on any Windows Mobile devices until well after the iPhone came out. Was Opera pre-installed on other devices?

That's right, the first WinMo device to ship with Opera pre-installed was shipped after the iPhone. However, I remember my Sony Ericsson P900i having Opera pre-installed back in 2003.

It's certainly dated now, but for most of its life, it was the best mobile browser that came on any device. Like Windows Mobile, though, Microsoft rested on their laurels too long.

It was probably the best browser back in 2002 but since then it has stagnated. That's the problem - there hasn't been any improvement programme within the Windows Mobile team to update the existing apps up until very, very recently.

I hope they can give the apps the update they so desperately need but it's a lot of work for one release.

acharn

12-31-2008, 03:00 PM

zetsurin

12-31-2008, 03:13 PM

OK, we've got one person. Do I hear two? ;)

Ridiculous words from someone on a pocket pc enthusiast site. Most people who did so obviously LEFT the site already, but for the record add me to the list. I used pocket pc for 5 years before I decided it stinks. Maybe I'm a slow learner but I suspect I picked up on it faster than you ;)

dma1965

12-31-2008, 03:37 PM

I vote no. Microsoft has linear thinking in a fluid world. After 5 minutes with an iPhone, I swore I would never go back to such a kloogie interface like WM. It isn't just the software, though. It is also how you interact with the device, the input/output. Multitouch zoom, fluid scrolling of webpages, accelerometer, simplicity. I was never an Apple fanboy, don't own a Mac. I am simply a fan of any innovation that gives me a great experience. I don't care if Microsoft even comes out with something since I already have what I want.

As I posted earlier, I WANTED to not like the iPhone. I decided to give it 30 days to see what all the fuss was about when my beloved Tilt started acting up. I made my decision to dump Windows Mobile in about 30 minutes with the iPhone. This is despite not having MMS (I now have a good workaround), not having copy and paste, having a less powerful calendar (no invitations can be sent from the iPhone), not being able to download or send attachments (except photos), absolutely no GPS Navigation software (this is the only reason I still have my Tilt, it is a glorified GPS and sits in my car), no native task application (much less synching of tasks), no notes synching, and no video recording. Windows Mobile had all these and I used them regularly.

So why would I so readily give up everything in the Windows Mobile world for an iPhone? Because everything it does it does SUPERBLY, and that convinced me that, despite what I had given up, if and when it does make its way to the iPhone (and many of these capabilities will), it will be an EXCELLENT experience.

You see, my dear Windows Mobile friends, the experience on Windows Mobile is indeed quite utilitarian, and can be entertaining, but it is NOT excellent. Sure, there were times I thought it was excellent, but not after using an iPhone. Not even close ! Don't even get me started on the price of Windows Mobile applications and ActiveSync. Oy Vey !

I also started using my MacBook more. More specifically, I started using Mac OSX more. I left Parallels and XP running on my MacBook all the time, using Mac OSX more for the entertaining stuff (video editing, surfing, etc.), but decided to shut down Windows and give Mac OSX a shot at "real work" over the Holidays, when things got slow. Well I have now made the full transition. I now only boot up Windows when I have to run eWallet, which still has no Mac version (although there is an iPhone version), and is still my favorite password stash.

So long Windows ! You are slowly becoming irrelevant. May you go quietly...in your sleep. I never really hated you, I just wish you had tried harder, rather than "patching" things up along the way.

Fritzly

12-31-2008, 04:01 PM

OK, we've got one person. Do I hear two? ;)

Seriously, though, do you believe most of the mobile market will behave like that? If openness is so important, why haven't Linux PCs dominated yet?

Steve
Maybe because I can update my desktop without the need to buy a new computer?
MS gave all the power to Carriers (in the US), and manifacturers (Worldwide); that is what will sink them if they do not correct it.

efjay

12-31-2008, 04:29 PM

So long Windows ! You are slowly becoming irrelevant. May you go quietly...in your sleep. I never really hated you, I just wish you had tried harder, rather than "patching" things up along the way.

IMO thats the real problem, WM's appeal is being eroded and MS is seemingly oblivious to the fact that it is losing current WM users to the competition, and is not being seen as an attractive option to new users. By the time WM is given the update it needs, who is going to be left to buy one?

PIE6 is a prime example of MS's indifference and inability to respond to market trends, it was supposed to be available by the end of the year yet here we are knocking on 2009 and no sign of it. What does that say about MS's commitment to WM?

12-31-2008, 05:09 PM

No. Back in 2000, i loved my jornada 548. Then i was using windows 98.

A lot of pocket pc's passed trough my hands for the next years... loosing charm everytime. Now i use ubuntu on my desktop, mac os x on my laptop, and symbian on my smartphone. WM should do something REALLY good to impress me again, like it did 8 years ago.

Craig Horlacher

12-31-2008, 05:36 PM

I voted no because I think the people who design the Pocket PC OS don't really use it. Blame Microsoft or the OEM's but either way, the devices are not easy to use and they don't come with features they should in my opionion.

I'm convinced of that after having lots of Pocket PC based devices starting with a Phillips Nino Palm-PC. The reason I use, and will stay with WM for now is because of the incredible 3rd party software for it from companies like WebIS, Laridian, DeveloperOne, SoftMaker, Resco, SPB, and others. I have not found another patform (including the iphone) that can rival the software that's available for the Pocket PC. I won't even consider an iPhone until it does copy & paste in all applications like the Pocket PC has from the start. While there is lots of good software for the iphone, I haven't seen any good high-end apps.

What I'd like is my device running Android with ports of all my current pocket pc apps.

Unfortunatly for microsoft, most people are just looking for a good phone with a few other little apps and the iPhone does that great. I'd love to try a G1 but couldn't switch to android because of the lack of software. At least it can copy & paste!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Craig Horlacher

12-31-2008, 06:37 PM

I forgot to mention hardware support! If the OS is going to run on different types of hardware, it should do so well. Someone, Microsoft, ATI/AMD, Nvidia, or the OEM needs to make all included hardware work well with all software. First off, there is no reason the included windows media player should be so bad at playing video. So, that should be fixed on all models. And, all models should have full support of included hardware. So those that have video accellerators should be able to use them in all apps that play video.

Notice how smooth the iphone interface is? I'm pretty sure it's not because it's graphics engine is better than my GoForce 5500. My bet is just that the software is actually optimized to use the thing.

I'm sure this is just one example. You should never be limited to using special hardware with one special app. It should be like a desktop where you install the driver and it just works with all software!!!

paschott

12-31-2008, 09:43 PM

I voted no, but more because MS hasn't really shown many signs that they're really interested in competing. I like WM for myself, but if I were to hand the phone to my wife, she'd complain because it's just not that user friendly. Add in the developers complaining now because of the limited functionality available in the SDK compared with Apple and the hardware just not really supporting some of the "cool" features and you have very little enthusiasm for the platform.

I really hope that WM7 will have the features MS needs to compete. I think that the platform does have a lot of advantages, but it doesn't have the same ease of use that the iPhone does. I see a lot of our iPhone users downloading apps that are pretty much toys, but they'll pay the money for them and like it. WM users just don't have that.

As for Android - I'll have to see it. The concept sounds cool, but it's still pretty early.

Still, I'm upgrading to an HTC Touch Pro - it's a good fit for me, though the iPhone fanboys may call me crazy (and probably will). Hoping for some form of Zune integration, especially with the upgraded Pass this year (and despite the plague hitting 30GB Zunes at the moment). :)

Eriq Cook

12-31-2008, 11:56 PM

I've enthusiastically followed and supported the platform since my first Windows CE device, the Phillips Nino (see my device history (http://www.tequpdate.com/?page_id=206) on my blog). During the last two years, I've lost a lot respect for Microsoft's mobile platform because they've been incredibly slow supporting the platform overall and releasing software upgrades. It's like they're just sitting back watching to see what Apple, Blackberry and Google are doing, but that's not gonna solve any problems for them.
<O:p</O:p

It's just not the same anymore. I think 2003-2005 were the most exciting years for the Windows CE/Mobile platform. I was active in the Microsoft Pocket PC Users Groups during this time, and saw the passion and support from many users and developers. Then all the groups closed, innovation slowed, devices stayed the same and the platform has been stagnant for more than two years now.

I'm actually very disappointed with the direction the Windows Mobile platform has been heading, and it's not good. Even the print version of "Pocket PC Magazine" stopped being published in favor of “iPhone Magazine” recently. Pocket PC mag was around for a long time, and even they’ve lost steam for the platform. Nothing new, big or innovative has really happened with the platform in a while now, and we probably won’t see Windows Mobile 7 until 2010. Whatever Microsoft is doing, I sure would like to see it soon.

In a perfect world, I’d regain my passion and enthusiasm for the platform once I see my perfect device: A sleek, blackberry-like form factor smartphone running Windows Mobile 7 Pro (I know they will probably merge the two editions), with touch screen, NEW version of Microsoft VoiceCommand 2.0 (waiting for years on this), VGA screen, 128MB+ available memory, digital camera, and last but certainly not least a FAST processor (this has been one of my biggest complaints about Windows Mobile devices).

I have supported the Blackberry platform for some years now, setting it up for many of my clients who use Exchange servers (both internal and hosted), and really like the way it works. And it’s FAST. Not to mention the Blackberry Bold is by far the sexiest smartphone I’ve seen since the original Compaq iPAQ from yesteryears.

It would be a big deal for me to switch from Windows Mobile, but that’s the direction I’m heading very soon if I don’t see any decent innovation from Microsoft in 2009. So to answer the question, no. I don't believe Microsoft will regain enthusiam for the platform in 2009. In fact, it's heading in the direction of Palm if they don't act right soon lol.<O:p</O:p

Eriq Cook

01-01-2009, 12:19 AM

...I am going back to WM in 2009, to bad there is not one good WM device comes out with T-Mobile 3G :(

T-Mobile is terrible. They only offer 1 or 2 windows mobile devices to choose from at any given time. If I migrate to the Blackberry platform soon (it's looking that way), I'm switching to AT&T and buying the Bold. Only reason I never switched from T-Mobile long ago is because all other carriers WinMo devices are the same.

Hugh Nano

01-01-2009, 12:39 AM

I voted no. I've been a long-time fan of the Pocket PC and then the Windows Mobile platform, having opted for a Pocket PC (an iPAQ 3650) over a Palm shortly after the ThinkOutside keyboard came out for it. I was very happy with the platform at that time - it supported true multi-tasking and the installation of third-party programs, and had a user-interface that supported the power-user much better than Palm's did. I took the first two years of my seminary notes on that iPAQ, bought my wife an HP 1910, and eventually upgraded to a Dell Axim x50v. At that point the momentum still seemed to be in the Pocket PC camp: the x50v had a VGA screen, a 600+ MHz, variable-speed processor, Bluetooth, and WiFi - still better than anything the competition had to offer. But the cracks in the MS Mobile ecosystem were already beginning to show...

Upgradeability (or the lack thereof) was always an issue, as was the perpetual lack of a proper "close" button. Microsoft never seemed to listen to the complaints of its users on either of these issues, and while there were reasonable explanations for the one (I never heard a reasonable explanation for not allowing at least the option of a real "close" button), the falling costs of laptops (which were upgradeable, had real "close" buttons, were more powerful, more generally capable, and had a much wider catalogue of free and close-to-free software available for them) put Microsoft in competition with itself, which served to reinforce the lack of attention MS was paying to its Windows Mobile OS. It also didn't help that after the introduction of the x50v, processor speeds and screen sizes stagnated - it is only within the last year or so that any significant number of new WinMo devices have been produced that rival or surpass my x50v's screen and processor specs!

I think Microsoft did make an honest effort to capture the SmartPhone market, but I'm not convinced it really knew what it was doing there. I have an AudioVox SMT5400 (the last WinMo device that I use regularly), but the interface is inconsistent and limited. And the SmartPhone market has been hobbled, until recently, by rediculously high data rates (especially here in Canada) and Microsoft's pitiful excuse for a default browser, which made internet access all-but-useless even if you could afford to get on the internet using your phone.

I've moved on now to a Nokia N800, which has an open Linux-based OS that is continually under development (and, so far, is continuously upgradable), an 800x480 touchscreen that - combined with the Firefox-derived web-browser - allows full and easy use of the internet (the lack of a full Java virtual machine for the N800 being the only exception to full internet-usability), a processor that is a bit anemic at times (it's about 400MHz) but allows for great battery life, and - along with real multi-tasking and real close-buttons - allows the installation of a full catalogue of open-source software, including a Remote Desktop implementation that puts the Pocket PC's Terminal Services solution to shame. I can't see what Microsoft might come up with in WinMo 6.5 or 7 that would re-ignite my own interest in their platform, especially with both the iPhone and Android out there as well-conceived and well-implemented competitors!

I still follow Pocket PC Thoughts via RSS for old-times-sake and because I love the community (having been here almost since the founding of it!) and because I am grateful to Microsoft for what they did to advance the platform, but, having moved on, I can't see myself ever coming back to it - unless Microsoft radically redefines what they do here. I suspect they would have to reinvent the platform from scratch to rekindle user interest in it, and, being Microsoft, I suspect that reinventing the platform (again!) is the last thing on their minds...

whydidnt

01-01-2009, 01:15 AM

A resounding no from me. From the sounds of things WM7 won't be out until 2010 and 6.5 is just putting lipstick on a pig. I'm convinced that the Microsoft model won't work in the mobile space. They are too dependent on hardware manufacturers to deliver, and the manufacturers seem intent on cutting every possible corner whenever possible. Apple, RIM, and Nokia are succeeding by controlling both the hardware and software. We used to think that when MS had restrictive hardware requirements we wouldn't get any variety, yet both RIM and Nokia offer a large variety of devices. It's sad when you see people at a PPC enthusiast site say the Blackberry Bold is the sexiest smartphone yet, despite the fact that several OEM/ODMs can make and sell WM devices. But you know what, from a hardware perspective it is superior to any WM device available with a front facing keyboard.

Unless Microsoft tightens the reigns to make sure users get the "total" experience, they are destined to continue to lose market share to those who are controling it. For starters, how about a "Pro" level device that requires a 3.2" or larger VGA or WVGA screen (pick one and stick to it), a minimum 624 Mhz Processor, accellerated graphics, minimum 256 MB RAM and 16 GB Flash for storage - oh and they are going to have to bite the bullet and get a real web browser, IE 6 is not going to cut it. Then let the OEMs lose with these minimum requirements to build sliders, front keyboards, no keyboards, etc. devices. For those OEMs that don't want to spend the $ on a decent user experience, WM standard is still available, but again, it's up to Microsoft to lay down the law regarding minimum requirements and to add consistentcy to the platform.

It will be game over for MS unless they re-take ownership of their OS.

kzemach

01-01-2009, 04:01 AM

Nope. I bought the then-almighty HTC TyTN, which was an "upgrade" from an old treo 600 whose battery was shot. That was a mistake. My 2 year-older Treo, running crappy hardware on an outdated OS was (and still would be if I hadn't chucked it) more stable, faster, more intuitive, and easier to use as both a PDA and a phone. To date, regardless of all the user whining, MS still hasn't addressed:

*Why my phone needs to be rebooted at least a couple of times/week to work well
*Why the menus and soft buttons are so screwed up
*Why I can't search the notes field in contacts on the phone.... "Windows Mobile: all your information in the palm of your hand, but you can't get to it." Isn't searching the information you have the whole freakin' point of the digital revolution????
*ActiveSync still sucks

I will let this device slowly eat away at my soul until I'm ready to either iPhone or Android fixes itself, but either way, WM has been a pretty unimpressive OS.

GLENBIER

01-01-2009, 07:39 PM

This is a difficult question for me to answer. I have been using WinMo since the beginning in April 2000 with the iPaq 3600 and HP Jornada 520 something (been so long I forgot the exact model). Like Eriq Cook, I have owned dozens of pocket PC PDA's/Phones, some were great like the Dell x51v (I wish it was a phone) to the disappointing XDA Flame. Some were ground breaking (at the time) like the Moto MPx200 and HTC Advantage.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
But can WinMo regain the user enthusiasm? I would say it depends a lot of what has been already discussed in this thread. Microsoft has it's work cut out for itself. Yes they may have painted itself into a corner, but I think that they can wait for the paint to dry and walk back out. (Fighting)<o:p></o:p>
Mobile 7 has to be the game winning hit out of the ball field. But the timing is critical. Sooner the better, 2010 will be too late in my opinion. 4Q 2009 will be pushing it because as everybody knows, 4Q 2009 is 2Q 2010 in Microsoft’s timeframe mentality. We should already be seeing real "spy shots", what I've seen and heard so far is a thin veil of vapor.<o:p></o:p>
I'm not a developer, I have no technical finesse with tweaking code or anything of that order. I am an end user. Period. A bit of a geeky end user, but that’s all. I love tech and how it complicates my life. It has never made my daily job really that much easier. Yes, I can do my lists and tasks and contacts in the field and sync with Outlook in the office, we do not have the current release of server, so push email is not there for me to use.<o:p></o:p>
I love WinMo because of its flexibility. I can play with the user interface, I can even make it look like the iPhone with the software out there. So what.<o:p></o:p>
The software from third party developers is the best anywhere. Like Pocket Informant from WebIS, Resco Utility Package with the best file manager out there. Even the free programs like TCPMP and Weatherpanel. I could list literally hundreds of each and we all have our favorites. The point being is that the WinMo ecosystem is rich with talented developers, programs, users and forums for all this to happen in.<o:p></o:p>
I recently tried the G1. I used it for about a month and a half and sold it on eBay for a nice profit. (I still have my 2 year contract extension to deal with, but I use T-Mobile anyways. And I will not switch to either ATT or Verizon. TM is not perfect but its affordable.) The UI was nice, but I like to change things around and customize it to my own liking. For what it’s worth, this is a huge advantage WinMo has over Google and Apple. They look nice and work very well, but you can’t change the UI to your personal wants or desires. <o:p></o:p>
The UI works nice but is limited in its scope. Being a first generation GI, its expected. The potential is huge though and MS hade better pay close attention. There were programs that I tried on the G1 and I thought, why cant WinMo have these. Like the bar scan program, very cool to use in the store. And it should be fairly easy to develop for WinMo, (Hint Hint) Even the weather programs were nicer to look at and use. No fault to Google or Android, but the battery on the G1 was the worst on any phone I had other than the Flame. (That phone was a real disappointment for me, great potential, terrible execution.)<o:p></o:p>
I had one Blackberry, the curve, and it was OK. I did not want to pay more for the email server, and lack of any real customization lead to me casting it aside real quickly. But I can see it’s popularity, it works, and it works well. No need to know a lot on how it all works<o:p></o:p>
The iPhone is something that really got my interest going, fantastic UI and ease of use, but I really can’t stomach Apple and it’s grip on control. The iPhone is a phone for the masses who do not want to understand how it works, they just want it to work, and it does. This is a huge advantage over WinMo.<o:p></o:p>
So to wrap up my answer, Microsoft is going to have a hard year ahead, no new releases planned, stale UI (un-tweaked), stability issues, and lack of a real game plan, at least unknown to the public at large, like me the end-user.<o:p></o:p>
So all I have to say is “Microsoft, get off your butt and give us something new and exciting as soon as possible, because both Android or Apple are nipping at the heals of my interest of ownership. And they are slowly making head way.”<o:p></o:p>