Dealing With The New Windows Live Sync Quirks

[Jason Dunn]

<p>FolderShare has gone away, and it's been replaced by <a href="https://sync.live.com/home.aspx" target="_blank">Windows Live Sync</a>. For the most part, this has been a marked improvement. The product is finally out of beta, and performance is good - I'm seeing my files and folders kick off a sync faster, and complete faster, than with FolderShare. And because most users were stuck at the 10,000 files per library level, the new limit of 20,000 files per library allows them to do much more with Windows Live Sync than they could ever do before.</p><p><img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com//dht/auto/1230511579.usr1.png" style="border: 1px solid #d2d2bb;" /></p><p>However...Windows Live Sync is causing me some significant frustrations. The first frustration, and by far the worst of the two, is the fact that I'm capped at 20,000 files per library. Way back when FolderShare was owned by ByteTaxi, I was happily paying $60 USD per year for a professional level account - and that account allowed for 20,000 files per library, and perhaps a bit more, because up until just recently I was able to keep my Pictures folder in sync across all my computers - and that folder has about 22,000 photos in it. Suddenly that became a big problem. <MORE />Since the release of Windows Live Sync, that seamless sync experience that I love so much has been completely shattered. For several weeks I simply didn't have my Pictures folder in sync amongst my computers because I wasn't sure how I wanted to work around the problem. I'll be honest, I was pretty angry that a software service I'd relied upon for nearly five years became completely broken with this "upgrade". By combining FolderShare and a hosted Exchange service, I was able to go to any of my seven computers (five desktops, two laptops) and have quick access to every file and photo I cared about. It was a powerful solution, so much so that I've constantly evangelised the combination of those two services because it's so game-changing for anyone with multiple computers. Then it broke.</p><p>There are two main ways to work around this problem if you have more than 20,000 files in a folder and you want to sync it. The first, and quickest for me, was to take three of my biggest photo folders (containing 4258 photos in total) and put them each into a single ZIP file. Because Windows Live Sync is based around the number of files, by zipping those folders into three individual ZIP files, I was able to take my total number of files down to the 17,000 realm. Like magic, Windows Live Sync came back to life and started keeping my Pictures folder in sync. The down-side to this approach is significant though: I lost easy access to those pictures. They no longer show up in Picasa, and I can't quickly access them. If I want one of those photos, I have to crack open one of the ZIP files - and manupulating a 3.3 GB zip file takes some grunt - and extract the file. Not ideal in any way. My wife loves having access to all our photos on any computer she sits down in front of, so I knew this solution was a band-aid fix at best.</p><p>The more complex solution, but really the best one, is to create a folder called "Pictures #2" or something similar in the user folder, right next to the Pictures folder (we're talking Vista here folks). Then move your "excess" pictures into that folder, and create a sync relationship with that folder across all your computers. Finally, configure your photo cataloging programs (such as Picasa, the Zune software, etc.) to monitor that new folder in addition to your normal Pictures folder. That's the solution I implemented as I was working on this article, and it didn't take much more than 10 minutes of configuration work - but now the long task of synchronizing those pictures begins.</p><p>What frustrates me of course is that I went from having a solution that worked to one that didn't - and this is from an "upgrade" to the service. How many people had more than 20,000 files in a single library? I suspect very few - but I am, unfortunately, one of them. The Live Sync team has stated that they're going to watch how the service scales with the new 20K file limit, and adjust it accordingly. Myself, I'd happily pay $60 or so a year ($5/month) to have 40K file limit libraries - a number so high that I wouldn't have to think about it for years - and integration with SkyDrive so I can keep a copy of my files in the cloud if I wished. The Windows Live team has a real opportunity to go head to head with the likes of Carbonite and Mozy if they price and position this properly ($5/month is the magic number in my opinion). Will they? The writing is on the wall, but Microsoft has tended to stumble more often than not lately, so I'm not holding my breath.</p><p>I also want to see the Live Sync team develop a Windows Mobile sync application, and continue to develop the software, restoring the still-missing file delta feature (where only the differences in the file is synced). There's obviously some crossover between Live Mesh and Live Sync, but Live Mesh still isn't built to scale - when I was at <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/news/show/91879/4/1/5" target="_blank">Mobius 2008</a> and I asked the Live Mesh guy if I could sync 23K files he practically choked. Live Mesh just isn't ready for large-scale synching, but I hope the Live Sync guys can leverage the work the Live Mesh guys have done and in 2009 we'll see a Windows Mobile client for Live Sync - it's the "last mile" so to speak and it's a gaping hole in Live Mesh as a solution.</p><p>My only other complaint about Windows Live Sync is this error message I see fairly often:</p><p><img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com//dht/auto/1230483207.usr1.png" style="border: 0;" /></p><p>When I click OK I have to re-enter my Live Passport credentials, and then it starts working properly. I have a particularly long Live ID email address and password, so this is slightly irritating, but not show-stopping. Windows Live Sync is a powerful tool that I hope gets the attention it deserves from Microsoft, because neither Google, Yahoo!, or Apple have anything quite like it - and Microsoft needs every advantage they can get.</p><p><em>Jason Dunn owns and operates <a href="http://www.thoughtsmedia.com/" target="_blank">Thoughts Media Inc.</a>, a company dedicated to creating the best in online communities. He enjoys <a href="http://photos.jasondunn.com/" target="_blank">photography</a>, mobile devices, <a href="http://www.jasondunn.com/" target="_blank">blogging</a>, digital media content creation/editing, and pretty much all technology. He lives in Calgary, Alberta, Canada with his lovely wife, and his sometimes obedient dog. He wishes it were about 10 degrees warmer right now.</em></p><p><img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com//ppct/auto/1240336793.usr1.gif" /></p><p><strong>Do you enjoy using new hardware, software and accessories, then sharing your experience with others? Then join us on the <a href="http://www.thoughtsmedia.com/reviewteam.php" target="_blank">Thoughts Media Review Team</a>! We're looking for individuals who find it fun to test new gear and give their honest opinions about the experience. It's a volunteer role with some great perks. Interested? <a href="http://www.thoughtsmedia.com/reviewteam.php" target="_blank">Then click here for more information.</a></strong></p><p><img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com//ppct/auto/1240336793.usr1.gif" /></p>

[NathanScott]

How many people have more than 20,000 files in a single library?

Well, I easily had more than 20,000 files in my Pictures folder until I deleted several thousand "dud" photos (which I was meaning to do anyway), but that's just another band-aid approach.

I had been waiting for Live Sync to come out so that I could get my mom set up with it, but since she has around 25,000 pictures I'm going to have to just move files around between her user's Pictures folder and the Public Pictures folder... which is yet another band-aid approach.

I really hope the Live Sync team is listening because eventually I'll hit the 20,000 limit again, and I can't always keep deleting or moving files to compensate.

[nocky100]

To sync folders containing more than 20,000 files you should move on up to Live Mesh. This offers more features, is a little slower in synchronising, but more importantly allows the sync of folders with 100,000 files in them. In fact, I am not sure it has a limit.

[Jason Dunn]

How many people have more than 20,000 files in a single library?

Here's what's funny...they won't really know that moving forward because anyone that has more then 20K files won't use their service. So they might think "Oh, no one is even getting close to 20K" but that's only from a group of users that don't have many photos/MP3/whatever. It's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Well, I easily had more than 20,000 files in my Pictures folder until I deleted several thousand "dud" photos (which I was meaning to do anyway), but that's just another band-aid approach.

Sounds like you need to do some culling (http://www.digitalhomethoughts.com/news/show/28975/sometimes-deleting-can-be-good-the-concept-of-culling-in-digital-photography.html) on a regular basis. :D

I had been waiting for Live Sync to come out so that I could get my mom set up with it, but since she has around 25,000 pictures...

Glad to hear I'm not alone! In fact, I suspect there are a lot of people with 20K+ photos because most people don't delete as ruthlessly as I do...

[Jason Dunn]

To sync folders containing more than 20,000 files you should move on up to Live Mesh. This offers more features, is a little slower in synchronising, but more importantly allows the sync of folders with 100,000 files in them.

Hrm. Are you sure? Are you using it with folders that have 20K+ files in them? Because like I said, the Live Mesh team member at Mobius didn't seem to think that they could handle the numbers that FolderShare could handle...and I've never found a description of the limits of Live Mesh. :confused:

[rzanology]

that in itself is another can of worms. unlike live sync, you cannot define or add folders to sync with mesh. instead, you must create and actually mesh folder to do so. so you'd have to move all your existing files into a mesh folder you created. That means completely changing around the way you had you folder structure set up. that might not be fun...

[nocky100]

The limits are sort of limitless based on what Microsoft has talked about, but they apparently have validated Live Mesh (as shown on their blog at http://blogs.msdn.com/livemesh/archive/2008/08/13/the-potential-of-live-mesh-is-limitless.aspx ) as:

* Size we've currently tested for contents in a single Live Folder: 10GB 17GB 40GB (go Mesh test team go!) (of course there’s still the 5GB quota which limits how much you can synchronize with the Live Desktop)
* Individual file size: 2GB
* Items (file or folders) per Live Folder: 100,000
* Members per Live Folder: 200
* Number of Live Folders per user: 200
* Number of devices per user: 100

[Macguy59]

Ok so I decided to download the Mac client for this to try out. Maybe I'm overlooking the obvious but why can't I choose an existing folder to keep in sync rather than needing to create a new one ? That seems self defeating.

[alese]

that in itself is another can of worms. unlike live sync, you cannot define or add folders to sync with mesh. instead, you must create and actually mesh folder to do so. so you'd have to move all your existing files into a mesh folder you created. That means completely changing around the way you had you folder structure set up. that might not be fun...

Why would you have to create a new folder. I have just added several of my folders, just by clicking right button and selecting "Add Folder to Live Mesh..." simple.

But... what I really, really want/need is mobile sync. I use my Windows Mobile devices a lot and not beeing able to keep certain files/folders in sync with what's on desktop is a real pain. For instance I use ListPro and E-Wallet to store my personal information and some lists, but since there is no easy way to sync between PC and Windows Mobile (Active sync is not the solution) I can't use this information seamlessly on my Desktop which is annoying.

[rzanology]

Why would you have to create a new folder. I have just added several of my folders, just by clicking right button and selecting "Add Folder to Live Mesh..." simple.

But... what I really, really want/need is mobile sync. I use my Windows Mobile devices a lot and not beeing able to keep certain files/folders in sync with what's on desktop is a real pain. For instance I use ListPro and E-Wallet to store my personal information and some lists, but since there is no easy way to sync between PC and Windows Mobile (Active sync is not the solution) I can't use this information seamlessly on my Desktop which is annoying.

when you right click and add folder to live sync, it doesn't create the folder in the location where your original folder was. it always places them on the desktop and moves the files accordingly. so lets say you wanted to set up a sync for everything in your picture folder....the physical location of the pictures are moved to the mesh folder on the desktop....unless im missing something...thats what i've noticed from using it in the past few months. and from what i can tell this is the main difference between mesh and live sync.

have you tried mesh for windows mobile?

[Jason Dunn]

unlike live sync, you cannot define or add folders to sync with mesh. instead, you must create and actually mesh folder to do so. so you'd have to move all your existing files into a mesh folder you created.

What? You can't right-click on a folder and make that folder part of a Mesh? I thought I did that, but I haven't played with Live Mesh in many months...there's no way I want to change my folder structure for Live Mesh, so if that's the way it works, no thanks...

I guess I'd better test this out again to confirm.

[Jason Dunn]

* Items (file or folders) per Live Folder: 100,000
* Members per Live Folder: 200
* Number of Live Folders per user: 200
* Number of devices per user: 100

Hrm - impressive numbers!

[Jason Dunn]

For instance I use ListPro and E-Wallet to store my personal information and some lists, but since there is no easy way to sync between PC and Windows Mobile (Active sync is not the solution) I can't use this information seamlessly on my Desktop which is annoying.

Yeah, I'm in the same place - I've basically given up on having FlexWallet on my device because the wallet is never in sync and I refuse to be forced to cradle it constantly. Live Mesh does have a Windows Mobile client in private beta, so it's coming soon I'd think...

[Macguy59]

So no one knows if I can use an existing folder for Live sync rather than having to create a new one? The goal is to keep my "Documents" folders in sync with all of my Macs.

[doogald]

But... what I really, really want/need is mobile sync. I use my Windows Mobile devices a lot and not beeing able to keep certain files/folders in sync with what's on desktop is a real pain. For instance I use ListPro and E-Wallet to store my personal information and some lists, but since there is no easy way to sync between PC and Windows Mobile (Active sync is not the solution) I can't use this information seamlessly on my Desktop which is annoying.

Why not SugarSync then?

http://www.sugarsync.com/

[doogald]

So no one knows if I can use an existing folder for Live sync rather than having to create a new one? The goal is to keep my "Documents" folders in sync with all of my Macs.

I love DropBox. 2 GB is free, and if you need more than that, you can pay for it. (50 GB for $10 a month or $100 a year.) I like it far, far more than Mobile Me's iDisk, that's for sure (especially because there is really only about 1 GB of files that I want access to at every computer anyway, so I can use the free service.)

You can select the folder that syncs with DropBox. It has a pretty nice web interface for when you are away from your computer, it has a public folder that you can tell people about, and you can also create shared folders that you can e-mail a link to friends for them to access.

http://www.getdropbox.com/

As for the 20,000 files thing, if there is one thing I really like about iPhoto on the Mac, it is that: it's library is a package, which is sort of like an uncompressed zip file. If I uploaded it, it would look like a single file.

[alese]

when you right click and add folder to live sync, it doesn't create the folder in the location where your original folder was. it always places them on the desktop and moves the files accordingly. so lets say you wanted to set up a sync for everything in your picture folder....the physical location of the pictures are moved to the mesh folder on the desktop....unless im missing something...thats what i've noticed from using it in the past few months. and from what i can tell this is the main difference between mesh and live sync.

have you tried mesh for windows mobile?

I don't know about that, but I have just set up some folders and nothing was copied, the folder icon just turned to blue as an indicator that it's in Live Mesh.

But... if you are talking about Live Sync then, you just select to which folder you want to sync the content of the original folder - no right click as far as I know but fast and intuitive enough.

As for mesh for windows mobile - unfortunatelly it's in closed beta, so I have the WM client, but I can't use it until the beta becomes public...

[alese]

Why not SugarSync then?

http://www.sugarsync.com/

Well sugarsync only has a client for iPhone not for WM and the mobile page for accessing files while nice is not what I want. I need to sync my files and have them available on my phone's storage regardless if I'm online or not, also I can do the same - access the file from the web using Live Mesh...

[doogald]

Well sugarsync only has a client for iPhone not for WM and the mobile page for accessing files while nice is not what I want. I need to sync my files and have them available on my phone's storage regardless if I'm online or not, also I can do the same - access the file from the web using Live Mesh...

There is, in fact, a WM client. Look at the bottom of page http://www.sugarsync.com/downloads/

While I do not use SugarSync, I did try it out several months ago with the WM client and it seemed to work fine. It has a 45 day trial, so you can at least see how it works.

[Jason Dunn]

Why not SugarSync then?

For me the problem with SugarSync, which is truly awesome in many ways, is that they FORCE you to upload all your data - they don't have a direct peer to peer model. Sure, some of my data I'd like to have in the cloud for Web-based access...but not all of it!

So because of that, their pricing is out of whack - I'd have to get the 250 GB plan, which is $25/month, and far too expensive for what I'd need from them.

What SugarSync needs to do is add a pure peer to peer model...then they'd REALLY have something.

[Jason Dunn]

So no one knows if I can use an existing folder for Live sync rather than having to create a new one? The goal is to keep my "Documents" folders in sync with all of my Macs.

Well why don't you test it out then? :D I haven't had time yet...

[Macguy59]

Well why don't you test it out then? :D I haven't had time yet...

Of course I have. I did not see an option allows you to use an existing folder

[Jason Dunn]

Of course I have. I did not see an option allows you to use an existing folder

Nuts. I guess that answers our question then. Why on earth did they make Live Mesh that way? Seems crazy to me.

[alese]

Of course I have. I did not see an option allows you to use an existing folder

Maybe that's a Mac "feature" it certainly doesn't work like that in Windows. I have just added a folder on my D drive root to my Live Mesh and it works as one would expect - no copying to desktop...

[alese]

There is, in fact, a WM client. Look at the bottom of page Sync Files Across PC, Mac and Mobile Phone: Remote File Access and Perform Backup - SugarSync (http://www.sugarsync.com/downloads/)

While I do not use SugarSync, I did try it out several months ago with the WM client and it seemed to work fine. It has a 45 day trial, so you can at least see how it works.

My bad, I haven't seen the WM client - I'll try it out. But I would still prefer Live Mesh, it's free :)

[Jason Dunn]

Maybe that's a Mac "feature" it certainly doesn't work like that in Windows. I have just added a folder on my D drive root to my Live Mesh and it works as one would expect - no copying to desktop...

Wow, if that's really the case, that sucks - the functionality isn't so hot on Macs. You wouldn't think they'd do it that way unless they had to, so I wonder if there's something about OS X that doesn't allow them to do that.

And I just have to say it...Windows FTW! :D

[Macguy59]

Wow, if that's really the case, that sucks - the functionality isn't so hot on Macs. You wouldn't think they'd do it that way unless they had to, so I wonder if there's something about OS X that doesn't allow them to do that.

And I just have to say it...Windows FTW! :D

Freakin totally wanks ? :D

[Macguy59]

Nuts. I guess that answers our question then. Why on earth did they make Live Mesh that way? Seems crazy to me.

Is Live sync different from Live Mesh ? Meh if I can't get it to work like I want it to I'll just use ChronoSync.

[doogald]

Ok so I decided to download the Mac client for this to try out. Maybe I'm overlooking the obvious but why can't I choose an existing folder to keep in sync rather than needing to create a new one ? That seems self defeating.

I just created an account and tried to install Live Mesh, and it will not recognize my user name/password (it is beta). But the instructions seem to suggest that you can add an existing folder:

http://help.live.com/Help.aspx?market=en-US&project=Live_Mesh_Mac

[doogald]

I just created an account and tried to install Live Mesh, and it will not recognize my user name/password (it is beta). But the instructions seem to suggest that you can add an existing folder:

http://help.live.com/Help.aspx?market=en-US&project=Live_Mesh_Mac

I finally got Live Mesh to install and actually log in from my Mac. And, yes, it is rather trivial to add an existing folder to Live Mesh from a Mac. You cannot do it from the Finder with a right click, but Live Mesh adds a menu icon and from there you can pretty easily add an existing folder. And whenever you navigate to that folder in the Finder it pops up a Live Mesh status window for that folder, where you can manage devices, invite users, etc.

[Jason Dunn]

Is Live sync different from Live Mesh ? Meh if I can't get it to work like I want it to I'll just use ChronoSync.

Live Sync works similar to Live Mesh, but they have no mobile device component yet. Live Sync allows you to tag one folder to sync with another folder on another PC. Other than that 20K file limit, it's really great.

[cjhpe]

Jason, as I recall you have a Windows Home server and all windows environment. If so have you considered using the folder redirection of your My Documents Folders and then using the Always Available option. I use this in my Work AD environment so this is how I setup my home WHS environment. It allows me to logon to any of my 4 PCs at home and have a consistent My Documents folder. It runs windows sync to keep the files the same and only moves the changes. Basically the way it works is you are running off the server for all of your files but Windows keeps a sync copy on each PC in case you need to use them when not connected.

This does not solve the issue of having some of your files in the cloud but if this is all that the Live sync is doing for you then it should solve your number of folder issues... I keep hoping that Microsoft will add something to allow WHS to sync to the cloud...I think there is a Third-Party add-in that does this but I haven't explored that...

Thanks J...

[ATNwebdesign]

Windows Live Sync Deletes file when program crashes:

I was working in photoshop on a file I've been working on for months when photoshop crashed the folder was gone in explorer, and when i clicked on windows sync in the system tray and selected activity it said it delted the folder

after a mild panic attack seeing it wasnt in the recycle bin I realized that all you have to do is go into the folder the file's saved in and you'll see a .tmp file with a strange name. Simply rename that temp file to whatever it was before with the file extension ex. "p~188.tmp" changed to "myfile.psd" and it will be fine to where you last saved it I believe.

This scared the crap out of me and I wanted to spare anyone the freak out :D