Will the ZuneUI Influence Windows Mobile?

[David Tucker]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/344/C16718/' target='_blank'>http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/344/C16718/</a><br /><br /></div><p><em>"Instead of having two separate teams work on possibly related devices, it seems that Microsoft is merging its Zune user interface team with the team that works on Windows Mobile. If this rumor holds up to be true, it could very well mean that the first ZunePhone won't be running on its own platform. Instead, the Zune-ness will "simply" be integrated into Windows Mobile."</em></p><p>Unless you live in a bubble you've probably notice a slight buzz over the past couple weeks in regards to the Microsoft project under the codename of Pink. First speculation was that it was a Zune Phone, a direct iPhone competitor. I personally have ignored this rumor mongering. Its possible that one day Microsoft could release a device like that. And then everyone who latches onto every rumor will seem like a genius for predicting it. Of course the same people predict it every 6 - 12 months so eventually they might be right.</p><p>Now that that the rumor has been debunked again, the speculation has gone is in a million different directions. I am not going to try and guess what Microsoft is doing. We're going to potentially find out at CES anyway. What I find more interesting is the rumor above from <a href="http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/344/C16718/">Mobile Magazine</a>. While I can't vouch for its veracity any more than a Zune phone rumor, at least its something different!</p><p>This is something I've wanted to see myself. I've been using the Windows Mobile platform since it was Pocket PC 2002, starting with the HP Jornada 565. At one time the interface was the best thing out there, at least in my opinion. While I don't necessarily think the interface is actually bad today, despite all of the criticism it gets, its definitely old and clunky. Its not the best thing out there anymore. And after 7 years of the Windows Mobile platform, just a week ago I took a big leap and went from the T-Mobile Wing to the T-Mobile G1. Even I've left and while I hope to see Windows Mobile take enough advances that I'll reconsider the move it would take a total overhaul of the OS. So I hope this rumor is true.</p>

[crimsonsky]

I also have used Windows Mobile since the iPAQ H1910 (I believe it was a Pocket PC 2003 device, but I forget) and loved using the platform mainly because of the availability of great programs that made my devices truly deserve the name Pocket PC. My biggest gripe isn't the OS itself, but the devices - at least the ones from T-Mobile. I still can't believe how memory constrained and slow the Wing is - it would have been a perfect device for me if it had a faster processor and more memory. I do still use my Wing as a PDA but no longer as a phone.

Android is too new and the G1 too ugly, so I went to a Blackberry Curve from my Wing. I really like the Curve and use it even more heavily than I did the Wing. However, I'm not sure my defection is permanent. As mentioned, I still use the Wing as a PDA (no SIM, in Flight Mode) and I'd really like to see something truly exciting in the WM space to woo me back. And no - throwing a touch screen on the device and a touch interface doesn't cut it. First because I'm not a huge fan of touchscreens, but also because the touchscreen interfaces I've seen don't (or can't) complete hide the WM OS.

[Adam Krebs]

I think you're spot-on about the rumors. Every time I see one of these, I have to wonder if the analysts are just predicting it because it "makes sense", or because they have some actual inside information. They've been talking about overhauling the WinMo interface with Zune since about the time the Zune came out (which is when a lot of those Windows Mobile on Zune30 shots came from). Sure, I'd love to see a worthy new interface from Microsoft as much as the next guy, but I'm going to wait until we get some stronger confirmation than this before I ditch my current phone.

[David Tucker]

Well, the lack of any strong indication of direction from MS is exactly what did cause me to ditch my Wing (which was terrible) for the G1. The G1 does a lot of things really well...I'm surprised how happy I've been with it because I wasn't overly excited about it. But now that I see how much I enjoy it even if MS comes out with something great a year from now I could be entrenched in a new platform by then. I buy too many applications to switch platforms constantly.

[emuelle1]

I don't think that the UI is the biggest problem with Windows Mobile. A Zune Phone is not the answer. My Epix would be great if I didn't have to reboot it twice a day, 4-6 times if I'm actually using it for anything. I think cleaning up the fractured ecosystem, making the operating system more independent of the devices, would go a long way toward making Windows Mobile a better platform than a "Zune Phone."

[David Tucker]

Oh, no, I think the UI is the major issue with WinMo. There are performance issues and I would guess most of those come from substandard hardware and poorly implemented UI enhancements. Most of the actual functionality of WinMo is great.

I mean...they need to start from scratch. Wrapping the OS in a new UI isn't enough. But the current UI is ancient. Its 8 years old and designed for Win95 era desktops. I think we're past that.

[Macguy59]

HTC's UI enhancement wasn't enough of a step forward? Of course the underpinnings are the same but I rather liked the Touch Diamond. UI seemed sluggish though when I played with one and that was after a soft boot.

[David Tucker]

Nah, none of the UI enhancements are true UI enhancements. They're all glorified launchers. Its almost impossible to use the devices without mostly being in the native UI.

And the reports of sluggish TouchFlo behavior turned me off of buying a $400 phone real quick ;)

[alese]

Nah, none of the UI enhancements are true UI enhancements. They're all glorified launchers. Its almost impossible to use the devices without mostly being in the native UI.

And the reports of sluggish TouchFlo behavior turned me off of buying a $400 phone real quick ;)

Given that original Windows Mobile UI is really dated even glorified launchers make it a much nicer experience, not only visually but also in usability terms - TouchFlo makes most of the functions of the device finger friendly.

As for sluggish TouchFlo - I had HTC Wizard for some time (it's similar in specs to the Wing being mentioned here) and I don't think any, even the earliest beta versions of Diamond and TF3D would be that slow. In any case my Diamond with current official ROM build works really nice and smooth .

[David Tucker]

It helps but its a stopgap. If you want to use a stop gap forever then by all means, go for it. But I'll wait until WinMo gets a refresh to see what they can do with it.

And I heavily investigated my options. The X1 mysteriously vanished from Sony stores. The employee I asked thought performance issues were the reason. I played with the Touch Pro and found its performance to be mediocre at best.

These phones are just too expensive to justify that sort of issue.

[inteller]

if this gets rid of the stupid window icon in the upper corner i am all for it. no matter which slick UI you put on winmo the mment it has to flip to that menu bar it just screams cheapness. that start menu bar needs to go for good.

[Pony99CA]

Oh, no, I think the UI is the major issue with WinMo. There are performance issues and I would guess most of those come from substandard hardware and poorly implemented UI enhancements. Most of the actual functionality of WinMo is great.

I mean...they need to start from scratch. Wrapping the OS in a new UI isn't enough.
OK, that contradiction confused me. Were you trying to be funny, or what?

Regardless, the Windows Mobile user interface, while not flashy, is quite usable. It's also very familiar to many of us. While I agree that Microsoft should probably create a touch-friendly interface, that should be a mode. There should also be a stylus-friendly mode that keeps most of the UI the way it is.

If you think the stylus is passe, read my editorial on why Windows Mobile needs a stylus (http://thoughts.svpocketpc.com#THOUGHT_STYLUS_VS_FINGERS). (Of course, that's for Pocket PCs; for Smartphones, it's a moot point.)

Steve

[David Tucker]

Steve, I had a dispute with a guy at work about that recently and felt the same way. That was before I decided to forgo WinMo and try Android. I don't miss the stylus one bit. I don't know what you do but I can say that in the business world, where most of these devices get their use, most of your points are irrelevant.

You'd lose handwriting recognition. While I never got it to work well for me, a lot of people have and love it.

With hardware keyboards that's the main way people get data into their devices. Handwriting recognition is not a good reason to keep a stylus because we're talking about a small subset of users. Its not very efficient so losing it is only a benefit.

You'd lose inking in Notes. The ability to add drawings in your notes makes them more useful.

Yeah, if only the pictures were halfway usable ;) I'm sure someone out there likes drawing pictures on their PDA/phone but I've tried and found that the small screen makes the drawings useless.

Selection for copy/paste operations would be more difficult.

I agree here that losing easy copy/paste is a downside. But that function just isn't something I find myself using enough to matter.

Scrolling large distances is more difficult.

You're not thinking outside the box. First I have to say scrolling long docs on the Android is easy. The phone is incredibly responsive so a quick flick and the page starts flying by and when it gets where I want it to I touch the screen and it stops.

Also in a long list like contacts, a scroll bar is hand but you don't want it taking up the display. When you start scrolling then a scroll button appears and you can grab and scroll with it. Its there when you need it and gone when you don't.

Drawing programs would be almost nonexistent. Trying to draw with your finger instead of a stylus is like comparing fingerpainting to ink sketches.

I appologize to all of the aritsts of the PDA world...but who cares. ;) This is a business device for most, not a toy.

The learning curve could be worse for experienced Windows Mobile users. New users might like an exclusively finger-friendly interface, but some experienced users might not.

No way. When I got my first WinMo phone the first thing that hit me was...wow, if I wasn't an experienced PPC user this thing would be terrible to use. The move away has been rather easy since there's no OS out there as complex as the WinMo one. Not that I feel its a bad thing...you get a lot of power.

As for your contradiction statement...I assume its because I said the functionality is great but they ned to do more than wrap it in a new UI. No, I stand by that and I'm being serious. It is absolutely inexcusable that WinMo can't run on a 500 - 600 mHz device like the HTC Touch Pro or the Xperia X1 and not have performance issues. The OS needs a total redesign to streamline what's under the hood.

Keep what works. Keep all of the functionality...just clean it up. You can't charge $400 for a phone that is going to suffer major performance issues. I was all set to switch to Sprint and get the Touch Pro and then I played with one. I was shocked at how...not good it was. I was extremely excited about getting to play with it and when I did I left really let down. I couldn't even play with an X1 at the store since they've all been recalled. The guy at Sony Style told me that they didn't say why but he felt that it was because they had some severe performance issues that Sony wanted to work out. $800 for an X1.

Windows Mobile is based on a 13 year old User Interface that was designed for desktop computers. Its time to make a UI designed to be used on a mobile device. Holding up progress at the expense of some of the more esoteric uses of Windows Mobile (and you can come back and tell me how useful they are to you...all I can say is almost noone else cares) is what has left WinMo in the state its in today.

[WyattEarp]

Interesting debate over the need for a stylus or lack there of. I read that piece and anything involving digital ink of any kind is really just one category. Everything else does not need a stylus. Cut/copy/paste are possible it just requires a little imagination to implement. I've used WM since the iPaq 3800 series and after a while having to pull out a stylus every time just got annoying. So I used my fingers like 95% of the time to navigate the device and OS. Last year I moved over to the iPhone and haven't looked back nor have I missed having a stylus. A few times I inadvertently reached for a stylus but that was it. Not to mention many other people have changed over from a stylus based OS to the iPhone or some other non-stylus based OS with no problems.
I think that some of us get so locked in on what we personally like and want, that we forget there's a whole world of people to consider. People are adapt when they must. WM has the least user friendly interface but many use it. So to say that "The learning curve could be worse for experienced Windows Mobile users" just seems so incorrect. People are more likely unwilling to change which is what makes it harder than it really is. They like to stay with what's familiar. WM for example looks and feels like Windows. A lilliputian keyboard on a smartphone is like a type writer or PC keyboard for those to young to know. We are creatures of habit but we don't always like to create new habits if it means giving up a old familiar one. Just my 0.0002 cents (rough economy) :)

[Pony99CA]

You'd lose handwriting recognition. While I never got it to work well for me, a lot of people have and love it.

With hardware keyboards that's the main way people get data into their devices. Handwriting recognition is not a good reason to keep a stylus because we're talking about a small subset of users. Its not very efficient so losing it is only a benefit.
But many devices, including the vaunted iPhone and Touch Diamond, don't have hardware keyboards. Also, what is a "small" subset? If it's even 1%, out of 18 million WM users, that's 180,000 people you'd consider irrelevant.

Selection for copy/paste operations would be more difficult.

I agree here that losing easy copy/paste is a downside. But that function just isn't something I find myself using enough to matter.
It's very useful. For example, if you have colleagues at your company in your Contacts, would you want to type in the same work address for each person you added. With copy/paste, you could copy that address from another colleague and paste it into the new colleague's record.

The stylus is also useful for selecting a large block of text to delete (similar to cut). On WM Standard, you have to backspace over each character, which gets tedious fast.

Scrolling large distances is more difficult.

You're not thinking outside the box. First I have to say scrolling long docs on the Android is easy. The phone is incredibly responsive so a quick flick and the page starts flying by and when it gets where I want it to I touch the screen and it stops.
Fair enough; I thought flick scrolling scrolled one page. Still, that mechanism doesn't seem particularly discoverable, while the Windows Mobile UI is instantly familiar to anybody who's used a Mac or PC.

I've been using my WM Smartphones (the Motorola Q and Q9m) for over two years now as my primary devices, and I still hate how difficult it is to get to the bottom of a Web page. Hold that Down button for a long time, instead of tap the scroll box and drag.

Drawing programs would be almost nonexistent. Trying to draw with your finger instead of a stylus is like comparing fingerpainting to ink sketches.

I appologize to all of the aritsts of the PDA world...but who cares. ;) This is a business device for most, not a toy.
"Drawing" isn't just for artists. Programmers might want to make flowcharts or UML diagrams on the fly. Inventors might want to sketch an idea quickly. Web designers might want to do a quick wireframe diagram. Electrical engineers might draw a circuit diagram. I think those qualify as business uses, no? ;)

The learning curve could be worse for experienced Windows Mobile users. New users might like an exclusively finger-friendly interface, but some experienced users might not.

No way. When I got my first WinMo phone the first thing that hit me was...wow, if I wasn't an experienced PPC user this thing would be terrible to use.
You actually proved my point. :) I said the learning curve for a new OS would be hard for experienced WM users. I said new users might benefit from a finger-friendly UI.

Again, I'm not saying that WM shouldn't be made easier and more friendly. I'm saying that it shouldn't get rid of the stylus, because it does have its uses. Having both finger-friendly and stylus-friendly interfaces would give us the best of both worlds. Just because you don't find a stylus useful doesn't mean that nobody does. ;)

Steve

[Macguy59]

I don't think "Swami" works for Pony99 anymore. "Contrarian" seems more fitting :p

[Pony99CA]

Cut/copy/paste are possible it just requires a little imagination to implement.
True, you could have a "selection mode" where the directional pad selects the text (like Vito CopyPaste does on the Smartphone). That's still less efficient than tapping and dragging and selecting from a context menu.

In fact, context menus are gone in WM Smartphone because you can't (in general) act on an arbitrary area of the screen.

I think that some of us get so locked in on what we personally like and want, that we forget there's a whole world of people to consider.
True, like those people who say that WM should get rid of the stylus despite a large group of people using them. ;)

Seriously, if that was directed at me, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. I've consistently said that WM should provide a better UI -- but it should keep a stylus-friendly version for people who like it. That's about inclusion, not exclusion.

People are adapt when they must. WM has the least user friendly interface but many use it. So to say that "The learning curve could be worse for experienced Windows Mobile users" just seems so incorrect. People are more likely unwilling to change which is what makes it harder than it really is. They like to stay with what's familiar.
All true, but why force people to adapt when you don't need to? Having a stylus mode and a finger mode lets new users get the friendly interface while allowing experienced users to choose whether they want to adapt or not.

And saying people are "unwilling to change" is because change requires new learning -- even if the new system is easier to learn. And that was my point, so I'm not sure what seems incorrect about it.

When Windows XP came out, I didn't like the new UI, but I was grateful that Microsoft allowed switching back to Windows Classic mode. Giving people a choice is good. That's one of Windows Mobile's strengths -- you have lots of form factors to choose from, lots of carriers to choose from, lots of software to choose from and even choice about whether you want a touchscreen or not.

Why should a stylus be an all-or-nothing decision?

Steve

[Pony99CA]

I don't think "Swami" works for Pony99 anymore. "Contrarian" seems more fitting :p
Too bad "Guy who adds nothing useful" is too long for a user tag, but at least pontificator (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pontificator) seems appropriate for you.... :rolleyes: (Definition #2)

Steve

[Macguy59]

Too bad "Guy who adds nothing useful" is too long for a user tag, but at least pontificator (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pontificator) seems appropriate for you.... :rolleyes: (Definition #2)

Steve


Lighten up Francis :rolleyes:

[David Tucker]

Hey hey, don't make me get out the fire hose.

All true, but why force people to adapt when you don't need to?

Well, I agree with this in principle. The main issue I see is that the differences in touch screen technology makes this much less feasible. Capacitive is more suited to finger based UIs and resistive is more suited to stylus UIs. One isn't superior to the otehr...just different. But that does limit the choices you can have.

I'd been using WinMo as long as anyone. Changing was easy. You'd have to try it though for a few days I think to really appreciate it.

[David Tucker]

Hey hey, don't make me get out the fire hose.

All true, but why force people to adapt when you don't need to?

Well, I agree with this in principle. The main issue I see is that the differences in touch screen technology makes this much less feasible. Capacitive is more suited to finger based UIs and resistive is more suited to stylus UIs. One isn't superior to the otehr...just different. But that does limit the choices you can have.

I'd been using WinMo as long as anyone. Changing was easy. You'd have to try it though for a few days I think to really appreciate what I mean.

[Pony99CA]

Well, I agree with this in principle. The main issue I see is that the differences in touch screen technology makes this much less feasible. Capacitive is more suited to finger based UIs and resistive is more suited to stylus UIs. One isn't superior to the otehr...just different. But that does limit the choices you can have.
Not necessarily a lot, though. There are good touch interfaces for Windows Mobile. You call them "launchers", which they probably are, but that doesn't mean the same style couldn't be implemented throughout WM. I think I've even read about multi-touch on WM devices.

Similarly, as my editorial pointed out, there's a stylus for the iPhone, and Vincent posted about a capacitive pen (http://forums.thoughtsmedia.com/f384/pen-developed-capacitive-touch-screens-91824.html), and even he thinks it might be useful at times. :eek: I don't know how well they work, but the differences in screen technology may not prevent much.

Steve

P.S. You double posted that.... ;)

[David Tucker]

My posts are extra effective when I post twice. (I was posting from my Mini 9 and managed to fumble around on that one I think...) And yes, if you can provide a stylus its a nice thing to have. My point wasn't to eliminate teh stylus. It was simply that the UI needed an overhaul. My biggest frustration was that SPB Mobile Shell greatly enhanced the usability of my Wing but when I launched any application I was back to the old UI. I want a consistant experience throughout.

[Pony99CA]

And yes, if you can provide a stylus its a nice thing to have. My point wasn't to eliminate teh stylus. It was simply that the UI needed an overhaul.
I don't think many people would disagree. I just don't want useful functions swept away in a tide of finger-friendly design.

My biggest frustration was that SPB Mobile Shell greatly enhanced the usability of my Wing but when I launched any application I was back to the old UI. I want a consistant experience throughout.
I was thinking of writing an editorial asking whether shells did more harm than good. If you understand they're just shells over the real UI, that's fine, but new users may not realize that and think Windows Mobile is horribly inconsistent. That's worse than just thinking it's hard or ugly because they'd still be exposed to those parts, too.

Steve