Zune Price Cuts = Desperation [Archive]

Vincent Ferrari

11-19-2008, 08:00 PM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-10101356-75.html' target='_blank'>http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-10101356-75.html</a> </div>"The software maker plans to announce on Wednesday a price cut for its flash-based models. The 4GB version will drop to $99, the 8GB model will drop by $10 to $139, and the 16GB model will sell for $179, down from $199. Microsoft is also cutting prices for several of its Zune accessories. The cuts take effect on Wednesday in the U.S. and on Friday in Canada."<img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com//at/auto/1227066532.usr18053.png" border="1" />Our colleague over at Zune Thoughts, David Tucker, is excited about the price cuts that Microsoft announced yesterday, and even calls them "welcome news."  You'd be hard-pressed to get me to agree with that statement.  Microsoft has been playing catchup with the Zune since they rolled out the first version of it.  While the iPod didn't launch as a great device (in fact, the first generation iPods were awful and expensive) it matured in a few years and took over the market.  Microsoft's general attitude with the Zune has been "Hey!  We have an MP3 player out on the market, too!"  They underpowered the WiFi and embraced DRM in insane ways (except, of course, for their own DRM, Plays for Sure, which they abandoned) and tweaked the design a little at a time but made no major changes.  The software interface is all well and good, but it's still, in the end, not an iPod which means you don't have access to the number one digital music retailer in the world.I'm not writing this to bash the Zune, and you'll rarely see me write a post like this here, but this was one time where I just had to.  The amount of desperation exhibited by Microsoft here is almost to the point of being embarassing and if they want people to think of the Zune as a first-class device, it's time they stopped acting like it was a second-class citizen.

crimsonsky

11-19-2008, 08:51 PM

I don't know if I would consider it a move of desperation. IIRC, the Zune has been out less than 2 years and it appeared in a market that already had a clear leader. Microsoft had to realise that it would be an uphill battle from day one. I think this move is more to be more competitive for the holiday seasons - although I doubt it'll make a lot of difference.

(Odd, I don't think I've actually ever seen anyone using a Zune "in the wild". Oh they must be there - someone's buying them, but the presence has to be very tiny).

I have two iPods, but have been willing to consider a Zune except for the fact that it doesn't work with Macs. I realise the Zune doesn't need Mac users in the way that the iPod really needed Windows users, but still I've always lamented the fact that even trying the Zune isn't an option for me as a Mac user. And for Windows users using iTunes, it's also not an option.

But in the world of tech, one has to be always ready to be surprised. 10 years ago, no one thought Apple would be in their current position of strength. When the iPod first came out, I don't think anyone could see it dominating the way it has. So it's not beyond comprehension that the Zune may actually strike it big one day. I've just learned in this world of tech, there are no sure things. And I certainly don't see where a real major competitor to the iPod would be a bad thing. Given the relative immaturity of the Zune compared to the iPod, I'm just don't think we can count it out yet.

Of course, most of the big box stores dedicate as much space to the Zune as they do to the iPod, so market presence isn't an issue from what I can see. This price cut just might help to nudge the Zune up a bit...

David Tucker

11-19-2008, 09:17 PM

Our colleague over at Zune Thoughts, David Tucker, is excited about the price cuts that Microsoft announced yesterday, and even calls them "welcome news." You'd be hard-pressed to get me to agree with that statement. Microsoft has been playing catchup with the Zune since they rolled out the first version of it. While the iPod didn't launch as a great device (in fact, the first generation iPods were awful and expensive) it matured in a few years and took over the market. Microsoft's general attitude with the Zune has been "Hey! We have an MP3 player out on the market, too!" They underpowered the WiFi and embraced DRM in insane ways (except, of course, for their own DRM, Plays for Sure, which they abandoned) and tweaked the design a little at a time but made no major changes. The software interface is all well and good, but it's still, in the end, not an iPod which means you don't have access to the number one digital music retailer in the world.

I thought I heard someone talking about me. I think you're grossly uninformed about the Zune. There is nothing "Me-Too" about the device. With all due respect to the success of the iPod...they're as different philisophically as Apple and MS are. The iPod does a few things and does them well. The Zune team has spent the last 2 years piling on features and quite frankly, on a value basis, the Zune blows the iPod out of the water. As you said, the iPod took several years to mature. The general consensus on the current generation of Zunes is that it is light years ahead of where it was and a solid competitor for the iPod. That MS is dropping prices on the Zune has a lot to do with current economic conditions.

There is no advantage to being able to use iTunes over the Zune Marketplace as far as I can tell...my access to movie & video is extensive. If there's something iTunes has that I don't...I haven't found it yet. And the lack of subscription makes it a moot point. I own no music and have no intentions of buying thousands of dollars worth of music to listen to any time soon.

As for WiFi & DRM...the WiFi on the Zune is more capable than the iPods that do have it and DRM isn't any more or less restrictive than on the iPod.

I'm not writing this to bash the Zune, and you'll rarely see me write a post like this here, but this was one time where I just had to. The amount of desperation exhibited by Microsoft here is almost to the point of being embarrassing and if they want people to think of the Zune as a first-class device, it's time they stopped acting like it was a second-class citizen.

I'm not sure it will even matter responding to this. This is the Apple site so I expect to see stuff like this. But its not desperation. Microsoft seems to be fully behind the Zune with new marketing, new devices, firmware updates coming at regular intervals.

The iPod is the 300 lb gorilla. Microsoft can't compete on features alone. It has the features. But it has to outprice the iPod to gain ground. That and solidfy the bonds between the Zune, 360, PC & WinMo.

onlydarksets

11-19-2008, 09:24 PM

Huh? I am all for op-eds, but this is just straight-up M$ bashing.

Underpowered wifi? What does that even mean? What "insane DRM" are you talking about? What does "the number one digital music retailer in the world" have to do with MS's pricing? (as an aside, you do realize that this is incorrect, don't you? iTunes Plus plays fine on the Zune)

David Tucker

11-19-2008, 09:24 PM

(Odd, I don't think I've actually ever seen anyone using a Zune "in the wild". Oh they must be there - someone's buying them, but the presence has to be very tiny).

I have actually seen them quite a few times but only very recently.

I have two iPods, but have been willing to consider a Zune except for the fact that it doesn't work with Macs. I realise the Zune doesn't need Mac users in the way that the iPod really needed Windows users, but still I've always lamented the fact that even trying the Zune isn't an option for me as a Mac user. And for Windows users using iTunes, it's also not an option.

I used to think that too. But I do think it would behoove MS to support Macs if only because its used as a large knock in most reviews.

But in the world of tech, one has to be always ready to be surprised. 10 years ago, no one thought Apple would be in their current position of strength. When the iPod first came out, I don't think anyone could see it dominating the way it has. So it's not beyond comprehension that the Zune may actually strike it big one day. I've just learned in this world of tech, there are no sure things. And I certainly don't see where a real major competitor to the iPod would be a bad thing. Given the relative immaturity of the Zune compared to the iPod, I'm just don't think we can count it out yet.

Very true. I thought Apple wasn't going to survive to see the 21st Century at one point and there's no denying they've changed their fortunes. Of course the biggest difference is for Apple, the iPod is truly what saved the company. The success or failure of MS doesn't depend on the Zune in any way, shape or form. The Zune is merely a component, though I think an important one and I think MS feels the same, of its growing ecosystem that they are currently tying closer and closer together.

onlydarksets

11-19-2008, 09:28 PM

There is no advantage to being able to use iTunes over the Zune Marketplace as far as I can tell...my access to movie & video is extensive. If there's something iTunes has that I don't...I haven't found it yet.
I think iTMS has more TV shows, although I believe the gap is shrinking. It definitely has a much larger selection of movies, and it offers rentals, which Zune does not.

And the lack of subscription makes it a moot point. I own no music and have no intentions of buying thousands of dollars worth of music to listen to any time soon.
It's too bad more people don't "get" this. It's a solid feature that is quickly written off. I guarantee if the iPod had it first, those same folks would be trumpeting its genius.

crimsonsky

11-19-2008, 09:35 PM

There're a couple things to consider in the Zune vs. Ipod equation. The Zune is ugly compared to the iPod and I think that really does matter. As mentioned above, I'd be willing to consider a Zune if it worked with Macs, but on aesthetics, the Zune loses big time and it's not something I'd want to show off for its looks.

Also realise that most Mac users aren't going to be able to be objective about the Zune just because they can't use it! But Windows users can use iPods.

Features are great, and that's one of the things that I find attractive about the Zune. I've often lamented the fact that the iPod doesn't have an FM radio - seems like almost every other media player out there does. Wireless syncing is another area where the Zune beats the iPod - I wish the iPod would get this feature.

But on a gut level, I think most folks buy iPods because 1) everyone and his brother knows what an iPod is and 2) the iPod just looks so much better than the Zune. I have seen this several times in stores where folks are considering choosing between the two and hearing "Boy, that Zune is ugly compared to the iPod" or comments along that line. As superficial as it may seem, looks do count.

onlydarksets

11-19-2008, 09:39 PM

I agree that the Zune flash players need an aesthetic makeover. Personally, I think the new iPod nanos look ridiculous (curved screen? Is this 1985?), but I thought the previous generation looked much better than the Zune.

The HDD players look better than the iPods, IMO. Then again, it might be that I'm not able to get past the much larger screen and the much nicer user interface on the Zune ;)

crimsonsky

11-19-2008, 09:42 PM

It's too bad more people don't "get" this. It's a solid feature that is quickly written off. I guarantee if the iPod had it first, those same folks would be trumpeting its genius.

Boy have you got that right! I've only been an Apple user for about 3.5 years (I didn't even own an iPod until I bought my first Mac) but the fanboyism among Mac users is, for me, one of the most annoying things about being a user of Apple's products. Of course, I saw the same thing when I was an Amiga and OS/2 user...

Personally, I prefer to "own" rather than rent my music, but subscriptions don't really matter to me one way or another as long as I can buy music and video. But yeah, you're right. If the ITS ever gets a subscription model, you can be sure that Steve will make it seem like the greatest thing since sliced bread!

onlydarksets

11-19-2008, 09:44 PM

Of course, I saw the same thing when I was an Amiga and OS/2 user...

Ah, so you were the other one! I thought it was just me and NationsBank out there! What a great OS that was. Pity IBM gave up on it.

crimsonsky

11-19-2008, 09:47 PM

Ah, so you were the other one! I thought it was just me and NationsBank out there! What a great OS that was. Pity IBM gave up on it.

:) Don't even get me started! I went from the Amiga to OS/2 2.11 all the way to Warp 4 and almost cried when IBM bailed...

doogald

11-19-2008, 11:23 PM

OS/2 was a nice OS, and I used it for several years at work, daily, as it was far more stable than Windows 3.1, and could still run all of the Win apps I needed. But it also had its quirks.

Back on topic. I think that the Zune is fine; I'd love to see it succeed, if only to keep Apple spurred on to improve the iPod line. I' do wonder if the Zune suffers a bit for not having a Touch-like product yet. I am sure that Microsoft hoped that the Zune could be priced in the premium product tier to be thought the same as the iPod, and were probably worried that cutting the price would make consumers think of the brand as step down in quality, perhaps like a Ford compared with a BMW. If I am right about that, I am sure that there was a point where they determined if the sales did not grow fast enough, it would be time to try to grab share by cutting price and clearly trying to show value for the dollar spent. Though I could be wrong about that, too.

I did spend weeks reripping all of my albums into MP3 format last year, on the off chance that someday I'd have something other than an iPod. The only FM stations that I listen to stream, and my NPR shows all podcast, so I can listen to them when I wish. (Though I did buy the Apple FM Remote a few years ago, I've rarely used it to listen to FM; I've only really used it for the remote, and I haven't done that in over a year now. I don't really need FM.)

Pony99CA

11-19-2008, 11:53 PM

I'm not writing this to bash the Zune, and you'll rarely see me write a post like this here[....]
Promise? ;) It sure sounded like bashing to me, though, and I don't own a Zune (or an iPod).

The amount of desperation exhibited by Microsoft here is almost to the point of being embarassing and if they want people to think of the Zune as a first-class device, it's time they stopped acting like it was a second-class citizen.
As it appears they've only lowered the prices on the flash-based Zunes, maybe they're thinking the same thing I said in the Holiday Gloom? (http://forums.thoughtsmedia.com/f302/holiday-gloom-91230.html) thread -- that smart phones are eating into the market for smaller players, and this price cut is in response to that.

If they were desperate about the Zunes in general, wouldn't all models be getting price cuts?

Steve

Vincent Ferrari

11-20-2008, 12:51 AM

onlydarksets

11-20-2008, 01:25 AM

Okay let's see:

Underpowered WiFi: DRM gets tagged to the songs you 'squirt' to other Zune users whether you have it on the original or not. That's inexcusable. Period. Not everything on everyone's Zune is RIAA music. Secondly, unless I'm mistaken, you STILL have to plug it into a power source to do a wireless sync. Honestly, if I'm going to do a wireless sync, why should I have to use a wire? The only difference is instead of plugging in a sync cable, I'm plugging in a power cable. That's insane DRM; tagging it on files just because you can.

By your logic, Apple is the biggest transgressor of all, since they don't even allow peer-to-peer sharing. That's the most inexcusable form of DRM - a completely closed system. Ignoring that strawman, how is this inexcusable? It's not a means of sharing files - it's a means of sharing music. If you want to give someone a permanent copy of something to which you own the rights, fine - but that is not the intent of this feature. Your argument is like complaining that your car doesn't fly. Sure, but don't expect a whole lot of sympathizers.

Yes, you are mistaken about wireless sync (http://www.zune.net/en-us/support/usersguide/musicvideospictures/wirelesssyncfaq.htm#frequency). If you want it to sync automatically in the background, then, yes, it has to be plugged in. That only makes sense, otherwise you would drain your battery. If that doesn't jive with you, I'm at a loss. If you want to do initiate a sync, you can do that without being plugged in.

Subscriptions: Meaningless. I would never subscribe to music. I can find new music on Pandora or Last.fm quite easily and when I buy it, I own it. I imagine the subscription model is great if you don't mind risking the fact that your whole collection could go dead tomorrow. That's not really my game, but if that floats your boat, go for it. If Steve creates it, iTunes will have it. Of course he'll position it as great stuff, but that won't mean I'll believe it.
That's fine - you don't see how it fits into your listening habits. From my perspective, it's virtually indispensible. I find it as unimaginable that people can't understand it as you find it that people do. I won't insult you with a "meaningless" comment, though.

Number One Store: iTunes is the number one music retailer in the world. That's indisputable. Unless the label has made unencrypted AAC available on iTunes, your Zune won't do anything with it.
iTMS may be biggest, but what does that matter? It doesn't offer anything you can't get elsewhere.

Also, DRM for non-subscription music is a dying breed. Even buying into your "iTMS is biggest" argument doesn't get you very far.

Fanboyism: Does this ever get old? They exist on other platforms; they're just called enthusiasts.

Look, if you actually read my post, you'll see most of my criticism is Microsoft's handling of the device, not the device itself. A lot of bad decisions snowballing into more bad decisions snowballing into them treating the Zune like a bargain basement device while telling you "No, really, it isn't!"

I read you saying that, but, if you read your post, that's not what you wrote.

Microsoft shouldn't be competing on price. They've tried that since the beginning and it's left them solidly nowhere. They can't call the device a premium device and a serious competitor if their entire business model is based on undercutting a device that, for the most part, people don't care about the price of.
Why not? They have a great featureset - they need to get users, so price is a great way to do that.

Vincent Ferrari

11-20-2008, 02:15 AM

By your logic, Apple is the biggest transgressor of all, since they don't even allow peer-to-peer sharing. That's the most inexcusable form of DRM - a completely closed system. Ignoring that strawman, how is this inexcusable? It's not a means of sharing files - it's a means of sharing music. If you want to give someone a permanent copy of something to which you own the rights, fine - but that is not the intent of this feature. Your argument is like complaining that your car doesn't fly. Sure, but don't expect a whole lot of sympathizers.

They don't claim to and then deliver on the feature half-way.

Yes, you are mistaken about wireless sync (http://www.zune.net/en-us/support/usersguide/musicvideospictures/wirelesssyncfaq.htm#frequency). If you want it to sync automatically in the background, then, yes, it has to be plugged in. That only makes sense, otherwise you would drain your battery. If that doesn't jive with you, I'm at a loss. If you want to do initiate a sync, you can do that without being plugged in.

Don't be at a loss. That was the way I understood it. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

That's fine - you don't see how it fits into your listening habits. From my perspective, it's virtually indispensible. I find it as unimaginable that people can't understand it as you find it that people do. I won't insult you with a "meaningless" comment, though.

When did calling a feature meaningless become insulting someone? I don't think I ever said YOU'RE meaningless. If I did, and you can find me that quote, I'll happily apologize.

iTMS may be biggest, but what does that matter? It doesn't offer anything you can't get elsewhere.

It's the biggest both in sales and library. By having the biggest library, by default, there are things there you won't be able to get elsewhere (aside from brick and mortar).

Also, DRM for non-subscription music is a dying breed. Even buying into your "iTMS is biggest" argument doesn't get you very far.

Yeah because it's definitely going away. Emusic and Amazon FTW, huh? Truth is that we've been hearing about how DRM will die and yet day in and day out, it hasn't gone anywhere. Have things lightened up? Sure, but it's still there.

Why not? They have a great featureset - they need to get users, so price is a great way to do that.

Is it? It hasn't worked thus far.

My frustration comes from a very simple perspective. Microsoft had a prime opportunity to dominate the market, and instead came out with the first Zune. Fair enough. First gen devices don't usually blow us away. Then they came out with Zune 2.0 which was, essentially, the same device with different firmware. Now they have the new Zunes which, again, are almost the same as the prior generation. Microsoft doesn't seem to want to compete on anything but price; that to me spells disaster.

A couple of years ago, Samsung pursued that same strategy. They decided they were going to "flood the market" with inexpensive devices that everyone who didn't want an iPod would buy. They didn't want to compete on features either, and yet many of their devices had the same features as the iPod. What happened? Well, when was the last time you saw someone using a Samsung MP3 player?

Exactly.

Microsoft, the only chance at a legitimate competitor for Apple's iPod, has dropped the ball and decided to be "Not the iPod." That may work for some people. Hell, there's even a site called "anythingbutipod.com" for people who want anything but an iPod. But if you're going after the mass market, saying you're not something as a reason to motivate customers just doesn't work, as the Zune's "success" has proven.

I would love to see Apple get some serious competition. It would motivate them to improve their devices if someone was breathing down their neck. That's my frustration right now, and that's where this post came from.

David Tucker

11-20-2008, 04:30 AM

I don't think you understand subscriptions. If they didn't exist, I would still only listen to radio. I never have and never will own much music. I enjoy it...but not so much that I want to spend thousands of dollars on it. I assure you that I will listen to far more music than you can ever dream of through my subscription. It expanded my music horizons. You're living in a black and white world and don't know it because you haven't experienced color.

Vincent Ferrari

11-20-2008, 04:37 AM

*oops from David...why are the Edit and Quote keys next to each other* :( Sorry from the other guys ;) I don't remember what was here but I accidently managed to write over it!

David Tucker

11-20-2008, 04:57 AM

Is it? It hasn't worked thus far.

I think you need to give it more than a day :confused:

David Tucker

11-20-2008, 05:05 AM

Anyway, what I meant to say (without deleting your post...I'm really sorry!) was I can't believe you could construe that as a personal attack. I'm singing the praises of the subscription model (which I used for years before the Zune existed) and that's a personal attack to you? That just says to me you wanted to feel persecuted. Honestly, you made very damning statements about the Zune, a product you clearly have limited knowledge of, because much of your impressions are at best partially correct.

Vincent Ferrari

11-20-2008, 05:07 AM

Here's the personal attack:

You're living in a black and white world and don't know it because you haven't experienced color.

How to construe that any other way is beyond me. It's all good. I've made my point and defended what I've said enough for one night. ;)

David Tucker

11-20-2008, 05:36 AM

Here's the personal attack:

How to construe that any other way is beyond me. It's all good. I've made my point and defended what I've said enough for one night. ;)

You haven't experienced subscription because you can't and are also closed to it. That is in no way a personal attack since all I'm saying is iTunes is the black and white world. That's like saying a blind man doesn't know what the sun looks like because he can't see. Not an insult...simple a statement that you haven't experienced subscription so you really just don't know at all what its about.

onlydarksets

11-20-2008, 05:42 AM

They don't claim to and then deliver on the feature half-way.
That's my point, though - you seem to be under the impression that they promised something different. I think they delivered exactly what they promised: A way to share music with friends, not a way to share files with friends.

Don't be at a loss. That was the way I understood it. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
Fair enough, my bad - your post implied that any need to use a wire for syncing wirelessly made the implementation of the feature suspect.

When did calling a feature meaningless become insulting someone? I don't think I ever said YOU'RE meaningless. If I did, and you can find me that quote, I'll happily apologize.
My opinion (shared by others) is that subscription music is a valuable resource. Your response is that subscription music is meaningless. My point is that I will argue the merits with you, not simply call your points meaningless.

It's the biggest both in sales and library. By having the biggest library, by default, there are things there you won't be able to get elsewhere (aside from brick and mortar).
They aren't the largest library (http://investor.napster.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=311243) - they do have the largest sales.

Yeah because it's definitely going away. Emusic and Amazon FTW, huh? Truth is that we've been hearing about how DRM will die and yet day in and day out, it hasn't gone anywhere. Have things lightened up? Sure, but it's still there.
No, just Amazon. The few bands with the clout to insist on DRM are going to be the exception.

Is it? It hasn't worked thus far.

My frustration comes from a very simple perspective. Microsoft had a prime opportunity to dominate the market, and instead came out with the first Zune. Fair enough. First gen devices don't usually blow us away. Then they came out with Zune 2.0 which was, essentially, the same device with different firmware. Now they have the new Zunes which, again, are almost the same as the prior generation. Microsoft doesn't seem to want to compete on anything but price; that to me spells disaster.
That is just so completely untrue. Look at the v1 and the v2 HDD players - they look nothing alike from a hardware perspective. Zune 2.0 was a drastic hardware change, and they introduced a line of flash players. What more can you ask for? Now, I agree that v2.0 to v3.0 was a joke. That should have been v2.6, not v3.0.

A couple of years ago, Samsung pursued that same strategy. They decided they were going to "flood the market" with inexpensive devices that everyone who didn't want an iPod would buy. They didn't want to compete on features either, and yet many of their devices had the same features as the iPod. What happened? Well, when was the last time you saw someone using a Samsung MP3 player?

Exactly.

Microsoft, the only chance at a legitimate competitor for Apple's iPod, has dropped the ball and decided to be "Not the iPod." That may work for some people. Hell, there's even a site called "anythingbutipod.com" for people who want anything but an iPod. But if you're going after the mass market, saying you're not something as a reason to motivate customers just doesn't work, as the Zune's "success" has proven.

I would love to see Apple get some serious competition. It would motivate them to improve their devices if someone was breathing down their neck. That's my frustration right now, and that's where this post came from.
Given Apple's market position, it's a start (http://forums.thoughtsmedia.com/f302/did-zune-16-make-apple-scramble-keep-up-90687.html).

bubuschoeny

11-20-2008, 05:44 AM

There is no doubt from the opinions in your "editorial" show that your as much of an Apple fan boy as Daniel Eran Dilger at roughly drafted. We are seeing consumer spending drop to it's lowest point in decade even Apple's Ipod sales are starting slow down. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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Microsoft is simply cutting prices to try and move more inventory in these terrible economic times. Something every retailer is doing as well. If Microsoft wanted to clear out inventory then the discounts would be much deeper like when they deeply discounted the first generation Zunes last year. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
It's a shame that this fallacy redden dribble originated from the same group that provided very fair and UNBIASED coverage of the Zune. The fact that your waffling about the whole situation is even more entertaining. Please take your fan boy editorial and shove them.

onlydarksets

11-20-2008, 05:50 AM

I'm going to step in for Vincent here (not that he asked) - please keep it civil. While I disagree completely with his premise, and I do think the original post is a bit over the top, Jason's sites are worth visiting because the posters are knowledgeable, the conversation is spirited, and the topics rarely degrade into unpleasantries. I would like to see it stay that way.

David Tucker

11-20-2008, 05:05 PM

I'm going to throw something else in here...the iPhone saw a, what, 66% price cut from Gen 1 to Gen 2? Was that as equally desperate and bad?

Just throwing that out there.

onlydarksets

11-20-2008, 05:11 PM

I'm going to throw something else in here...the iPhone saw a, what, 66% price cut from Gen 1 to Gen 2? Was that as equally desperate and bad?

Just throwing that out there.

I believe the price paid to Apple for the iPhone actually went up from 2G to 3G (btw, what are they going to call the next one? 4G? Even if it's on 3G?), but the carrier-paid subsidy made the end-user cost go down.

That said, Apple did just lower the prices on their MacBooks, didn't they? Perhaps that's the more apt comparison - that's a market where they are competing against the established giant.

David Tucker

11-20-2008, 05:17 PM

I believe the price paid to Apple for the iPhone actually went up from 2G to 3G (btw, what are they going to call the next one? 4G? Even if it's on 3G?), but the carrier-paid subsidy made the end-user cost go down.

That said, Apple did just lower the prices on their MacBooks, didn't they? Perhaps that's the more apt comparison - that's a market where they are competing against the established giant.

I think any price cut is a valid comparison. :) But the MacBook price cuts work just as well. Clearly that was an act of desperation given Apple's slim marketshare?

Dyvim

11-20-2008, 06:41 PM

I'm going to throw something else in here...the iPhone saw a, what, 66% price cut from Gen 1 to Gen 2? Was that as equally desperate and bad?

Just throwing that out there.
No, the iPhone was just vastly overpriced on its initial release (and then subsidized in its 2nd incarnation).

This would be akin to MS pricing their Zune 16 at $299 initially and then reducing its price to a more reasonable $199 (and then reducing it to $99, but with a 2 year commitment to the Zune Pass).

David Tucker

11-20-2008, 07:03 PM

It can be justified however anyone wants to justify it. Considering how much less you can buy a flash player for than the Zune or iPods I'd say they both are over priced. And that just distracts from the initial point (and the one made about the MacBooks). Why is that ok? Clearly because Apple is desperate?

Janak Parekh

11-20-2008, 08:04 PM

You haven't experienced subscription because you can't and are also closed to it. That is in no way a personal attack since all I'm saying is iTunes is the black and white world. That's like saying a blind man doesn't know what the sun looks like because he can't see. Not an insult...simple a statement that you haven't experienced subscription so you really just don't know at all what its about. I'll tell you what, though, David, as a longtime Rhapsody subscriber: Microsoft sucks at explaining subscription music. If Apple ever releases a subscription system, they'll give it a catchy name and market it extremely well, and then everyone will get it.

The simplest way to describe subscription music is as a customized radio or jukebox. Yet, I see no one describing it this way. As long as Microsoft doesn't get how to market their distinguishing features competently, the public is not going to perceive the featureset difference between the Zune and the iPod.

All that said, I think I have to partially agree with Vinny as well. If you look at the Zune, it's clear it was iPod-inspired. Why not try something different, like a whole new form factor? Or, here's another crazy idea: release a device that's standalone, subscription-only. Something that someone can pick up, open the box, sign onto WiFi, and populate with music. I want to see someone break the mold; the MP3 market is getting predictable now. If someone can invent the next paradigm, they won't need to cut prices.

(Honestly, what I would have preferred was the Zune platform on a WM device from day one. That would have been a compelling, iPhone-like featureset with more power before the iPhone was even released.)

--janak

Janak Parekh

11-20-2008, 08:07 PM

It's a shame that this fallacy redden dribble originated from the same group that provided very fair and UNBIASED coverage of the Zune. It's not the same group, and you shouldn't assume as much. Apple Thoughts is going to be Apple-centric, and Zune Thoughts is going to be Zune-centric. While I'd say both teams are not fanboys, of course there are going to be enthusiasts of each platform.

The fact that your waffling about the whole situation is even more entertaining. Please take your fan boy editorial and shove them. One thing Thoughts Media sites will always do is to have opinions. You don't have to read Apple Thoughts, you know. ;)

--janak

bubuschoeny

11-20-2008, 08:40 PM

It's not the same group, and you shouldn't assume as much. Apple Thoughts is going to be Apple-centric, and Zune Thoughts is going to be Zune-centric. While I'd say both teams are not fanboys, of course there are going to be enthusiasts of each platform.

One thing Thoughts Media sites will always do is to have opinions. You don't have to read Apple Thoughts, you know. ;)

--janak

Yes I'm aware it's not the same group, but Zune Thoughts has always provided unbiased/interesting content on Zune's strengths and weakness’. Is it not fair to expect this same standard from this site? Enthusiasts are great but Biased Fanboyism is pathetic and sad. I commented how sad this was when you originally announced the creation Apple Thoughts. And was told to at least stay and give Apple Thoughts a chance. Don't worry I will not be returning to this site or any of it's affiliates again. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Vincent Ferrari

11-20-2008, 08:44 PM

I'm going to throw something else in here...the iPhone saw a, what, 66% price cut from Gen 1 to Gen 2? Was that as equally desperate and bad?

Just throwing that out there.

You do realize that the price changed because it went from unsubsidized to subsidized, right?

Vincent Ferrari

11-20-2008, 08:46 PM

Yes I'm aware it's not the same group, but Zune Thoughts has always provided unbiased/interesting content on Zune's strengths and weakness’. Is it not fair to expect this same standard from this site? Enthusiasts are great but Biased Fanboyism is pathetic and sad. I commented how sad this was when you originally announced the creation Apple Thoughts. And was told to at least stay and give Apple Thoughts a chance. Don't worry I will not be returning to this site or any of it's affiliates again. ffice:office" /><o>:p></o>:p>

So in other words before the first post was written the deck was stacked immensely against me.

Grand. :rolleyes:

Janak Parekh

11-20-2008, 08:49 PM

Yes I'm aware it's not the same group, but Zune Thoughts has always provided unbiased/interesting content on Zune's strengths and weakness’. Suffice it to say, I completely disagree. I respect all of the ZT editors' opinions on the Zune, but I don't agree with many of them. I also consider ZT to be pro-Zune, and I wouldn't want it any other way. Ditto with Apple Thoughts. There's a big difference between being for a product and being blindly fanboy about it. I don't think either the ZT or AT editors are blindly fanboy.

--janak

Vincent Ferrari

11-20-2008, 08:50 PM

I think I have to partially agree with Vinny as well. If you look at the Zune, it's clear it was iPod-inspired. Why not try something different, like a whole new form factor? Or, here's another crazy idea: release a device that's standalone, subscription-only. Something that someone can pick up, open the box, sign onto WiFi, and populate with music. I want to see someone break the mold; the MP3 market is getting predictable now. If someone can invent the next paradigm, they won't need to cut prices.

(Honestly, what I would have preferred was the Zune platform on a WM device from day one. That would have been a compelling, iPhone-like featureset with more power before the iPhone was even released.)

--janak

Thank you. That's exactly what I was saying.

You don't enter a mature market with a clone of the market leader and hope to succeed. What you're suggesting is what I was hoping for: a new paradigm from a company with a gigantic R&D budget. What we got, however, was another device.

I'd like to see someone put some pressure on Apple and drive them to make better devices. Instead, we have a much bigger company with a bigger budget and people who are just as bright who are, as onlydarksets said, competing on price just to get numbers.

Sorry, but when you're sharing 15-20% of the market with a ton of other competitors, price just isn't going to differentiate you enough to matter.

I guess it's just because I'm a fanboy or something.

David Tucker

11-20-2008, 09:01 PM

You do realize that the price changed because it went from unsubsidized to subsidized, right?

Actually everyone is ignoring the original price drop that caused so much heartache and you conveniently sidestepped the comment about the MacBook price drop. So what is it? Just this one price drop is bad and all of Apple's are great?

David Tucker

11-20-2008, 09:03 PM

Suffice it to say, I completely disagree. I respect all of the ZT editors' opinions on the Zune, but I don't agree with many of them. I also consider ZT to be pro-Zune, and I wouldn't want it any other way. Ditto with Apple Thoughts. There's a big difference between being for a product and being blindly fanboy about it. I don't think either the ZT or AT editors are blindly fanboy.

--janak

It'd be hard for me to convince many people that I'm not an MS fan. I have a winmo phone, zune, 360, vista desktop, xp netbook...

I can't even convince myself ;)

Vincent Ferrari

11-20-2008, 09:08 PM

Actually everyone is ignoring the original price drop that caused so much heartache and you conveniently sidestepped the comment about the MacBook price drop.

Oh yeah, it was definitely desperation as people lined up around the block to get them. You're 100% right. It's not like they were flying out the door or anything. In fact, had they not dropped the price, no one was buying it at all. No one waited on line for it on day one and lined up afterward. In fact, it's exactly the same thing as the Zune. In May, they announced two million Zunes were sold. By May, Apple was pushing 8 million iPhones in one year. You're right. That's an equivalent situation.

Just for one minute, be realistic. Microsoft would kill to have 8 million Zunes in peoples' hands right now. In the iPhone's first two months, they sold as many iPhones as Microsoft has sold Zunes in what... Three years?

[qupte=David Tucker]So what is it? Just this one price drop is bad and all of Apple's are great?[/quote]

Must you make strawmen for every argument? I don't thinK I said anything to that effect. I notice you keep saying things to the effect that "Everything Apple does is great." I wish you'd cut the crap already. I don't, didn't, and won't ever say anything that dumb, and if you think that's my motivation, that's part of the reason you have a problem with what I said.

I get it. Really. You think I'm a fanboy. If I wasn't, I'd be bowing at the greatness that is the Zune. Can you stop now?

Vincent Ferrari

11-20-2008, 09:09 PM

It'd be hard for me to convince many people that I'm not an MS fan. I have a winmo phone, zune, 360, vista desktop, xp netbook...

I can't even convince myself ;)

I have a 360 and think it's the best gaming system on the market hands down.

Maybe I'm a 360 fanboy, too. :rolleyes:

David Tucker

11-20-2008, 09:10 PM

Thank you. That's exactly what I was saying.

You don't enter a mature market with a clone of the market leader and hope to succeed. What you're suggesting is what I was hoping for: a new paradigm from a company with a gigantic R&D budget. What we got, however, was another device.

I'd like to see someone put some pressure on Apple and drive them to make better devices. Instead, we have a much bigger company with a bigger budget and people who are just as bright who are, as onlydarksets said, competing on price just to get numbers.

Sorry, but when you're sharing 15-20% of the market with a ton of other competitors, price just isn't going to differentiate you enough to matter.

I guess it's just because I'm a fanboy or something.

Except you don't care about all of the differentiating features. The Zune does many things the iPod does not and always has. It has a similar form factor (but superior...larger screen means a lot to me) but why would MS change that much? The iPod found a form factor that appealed to the masses...it works well.

Innovation has come in the form of features. You don't like the features...ok, so you get an iPod. Honestly its not like the iPod was some huge paradigm shift from what came before. The CD player played music. The walkman played music. In each case...when the optimal form factor was found noone varied it. I have complaint about that and that's what has happenned in the MP3 market.

Vincent Ferrari

11-20-2008, 09:18 PM

Honestly its not like the iPod was some huge paradigm shift from what came before.

You're 100% right. Lots of people were carrying their entire music collections with them in a device that fit in their pockets. That sort of thing was old hat by the time the iPod arrived.

Please tell me that you made that remark tongue-in-cheek.

If you can't see that the iPod was paradigm shifting from just about every point of view, then you really need to just go back over to Zune Thoughts and leave it be. I don't care how ingratiated you are into the Windows ecosystem; even the deepest-rooted Windows / Microsoft users have to acknowledge that the iPod was a disruptive device at its launch in every respect.

Whether you love it or hate it, that's just reality without any room for dispute.

Unless, of course, you're Rob Enderle.

David Tucker

11-20-2008, 09:21 PM

Oh yeah, it was definitely desperation as people lined up around the block to get them. You're 100% right. It's not like they were flying out the door or anything. In fact, had they not dropped the price, no one was buying it at all. No one waited on line for it on day one and lined up afterward. In fact, it's exactly the same thing as the Zune. In May, they announced two million Zunes were sold. By May, Apple was pushing 8 million iPhones in one year. You're right. That's an equivalent situation.

Just for one minute, be realistic. Microsoft would kill to have 8 million Zunes in peoples' hands right now. In the iPhone's first two months, they sold as many iPhones as Microsoft has sold Zunes in what... Three years?

Still no response to the MacBooks? And yes, the iPhone sold very well by May. But you know what...it was not on track for anywhere near that prior to the first price cut. Apple cut that price VERY quickly.

Must you make strawmen for every argument? I don't thinK I said anything to that effect. I notice you keep saying things to the effect that "Everything Apple does is great." I wish you'd cut the crap already. I don't, didn't, and won't ever say anything that dumb, and if you think that's my motivation, that's part of the reason you have a problem with what I said.

I get it. Really. You think I'm a fanboy. If I wasn't, I'd be bowing at the greatness that is the Zune. Can you stop now?

Why is it a strawman? The ENTIRE premise of your editorial is that the pricecut is bad. Yet when asked about other price cuts, you predictably said that they were not bad. At least the one you acknowledged. I didn't say you said everything Apple does is great. I asked it as a question since it was going unanswered (and has still mostly been unanswered).

Why all the anger too? Its like you want everything to feel like an insult. I don't even have a problem with what you said. Simply trying to find out what possible explanation you have for why its bad and its not a question I've really seen an answer for. But honestly unless you choose to back it up and give a reason for why this price cut is bad and all of the Apple pricecuts were only done for good reasons (not sure what the good reasons are...all of the price cuts are done for only one reason...to drive more sales) then I have nothing more to say on the subject.

David Tucker

11-20-2008, 09:27 PM

You're 100% right. Lots of people were carrying their entire music collections with them in a device that fit in their pockets. That sort of thing was old hat by the time the iPod arrived.

Please tell me that you made that remark tongue-in-cheek.

If you can't see that the iPod was paradigm shifting from just about every point of view, then you really need to just go back over to Zune Thoughts and leave it be. I don't care how ingratiated you are into the Windows ecosystem; even the deepest-rooted Windows / Microsoft users have to acknowledge that the iPod was a disruptive device at its launch in every respect.

Whether you love it or hate it, that's just reality without any room for dispute.

Unless, of course, you're Rob Enderle.

You know what a paradigm shift is right? A revolution. The iPod took the technology that was out there and improved on it. If you've ever read what I write over at Zune Thoughts, you'll see I've often complimented what the iPod does and has done. It is a fine piece of hardware. But it didn't invent digital music players. The first players had large hard drives for the time. But still were not very big at only 5GB.

There were many MP3 players that were enjoying modest success at that time until Apple blew them away. They were the first company on the scene with the money to do it right. The true paradigm shift was the music store. The player itself was nothing more than natural evolution of players at the time. That's not a knock on it because Apple did it well. But that doesn't mean it was something that blew people away because they'd never thought of that before. It was at most 5 times as much storage than what you could get up to that point...I don't know what else was available when it came out.

Vincent Ferrari

11-20-2008, 09:48 PM

You know what a paradigm shift is right? A revolution. The iPod took the technology that was out there and improved on it. If you've ever read what I write over at Zune Thoughts, you'll see I've often complimented what the iPod does and has done. It is a fine piece of hardware. But it didn't invent digital music players. The first players had large hard drives for the time. But still were not very big at only 5GB.

Yep. 5 Gigs, and Apple did a device that could fit in your pocket while others were making devices that barely fit in a bag.

There were many MP3 players that were enjoying modest success at that time until Apple blew them away. They were the first company on the scene with the money to do it right. The true paradigm shift was the music store.

Debatable, and worthy of note is the fact that the Music Store came along almost two years after the iPod itself.

The player itself was nothing more than natural evolution of players at the time. That's not a knock on it because Apple did it well. But that doesn't mean it was something that blew people away because they'd never thought of that before.

A UI that was better than anything out there, more natural, and easier to use in a form factor that was reserved for players like the Rio 300 but could hold an entire library for most people is way more than a natural evolution. Now, as far as the "never thought of that before" part, well yeah, it had never been thought of before. Have you seen some of those gen-1 MP3 players that were out? A paradigm shift is a change in the way people see something and what it means to the market (that's the non-science understanding of the term) and the iPod was exactly that.

It was at most 5 times as much storage than what you could get up to that point...I don't know what else was available when it came out.

Check out the Hango Jukebox (I believe that's what it was called). Once you see that thing you'll understand why the iPod was revolutionary.

David Tucker

11-20-2008, 10:01 PM

I do think at this point its more of a semantics argument though. To me the revolution was the move from physical to digital media. The hard part was designing the UI and hardware for it in a way that everyone would want it since noone had made players like that before. I think the pressure of lawsuits had a pretty negative effect on companies like Diamond. I don't think their MP3 players were too unweildy but they were no where near as refined as the iPod.

Whether you want to call it an evolution or revolution...we both agree that the iPod did more than anything that came before it to actually popularize portable digital music.

Vincent Ferrari

11-20-2008, 10:04 PM

Still no response to the MacBooks?
Oh, you mean the number one consumer latpop in Apple's arsenal? Yeah, they cut that price out of panic. They fully expected to achieve 100% marketshare with it. Come on man, really?

And yes, the iPhone sold very well by May. But you know what...it was not on track for anywhere near that prior to the first price cut. Apple cut that price VERY quickly.

Says you. The first price cut came three months after its release and it was almost universally accepted that it was because it was brought out at too high a price to begin with. Was it desperation? Hard to say they sounded desperate after having a product on the market for 3 months, wouldn't you say? I think it was more because they knew they wanted to move a lot of them quickly with the iPhone 3G announcement coming 4 months later, but that's me. I'm just a fanboy.

Why is it a strawman? The ENTIRE premise of your editorial is that the pricecut is bad. Yet when asked about other price cuts, you predictably said that they were not bad. At least the one you acknowledged. I didn't say you said everything Apple does is great. I asked it as a question since it was going unanswered (and has still mostly been unanswered).

Sorry, I didn't realize this was an interview.

Okay here's your answer: NO.

But honestly unless you choose to back it up and give a reason for why this price cut is bad and all of the Apple pricecuts were only done for good reasons (not sure what the good reasons are...all of the price cuts are done for only one reason...to drive more sales) then I have nothing more to say on the subject.

Because MS is three revisions and three years into their product cycle and no one has a Zune. No buzz surrounds it, no mystique is afforded it, and no one wants one save for the people like you who want nothing to do with Apple. If they don't crack the market with this one, let's be honest; the Zune isn't long for this world.

Apple's price cuts can't be out of desperation simply because Apple's philosophy isn't one of "hurry up and catch Microsoft!" They just don't run that way. Their marketshare has increased over the years, but they've never been about marketshare because frankly, they'll never have the marketshare Microsoft does in any market. If Microsoft cut the price on Vista right now, I'd be making the same point; it's desperation. If Microsoft cut the price on Office, I'd laugh it off because it's a market leader.

Oh yeah, and Apple's MacBook price cuts came after they released new models. You couldn't very well sell a last gen model with the same price up against the new ones.

I don't think the price cut is bad (you seem to be drawing a lot of conclusions I'm not making). I said it demonstrated something: desperation, and unless you think their level of success is acceptable at this point in the Zune's evolution is acceptable, you can't look at this any other way.

Here's another way to look at it:

Xbox 1 = Niche device against Nintendo and Sony's offerings
Xbox 360 = Massive mainstream success in a crowded market against heavy hitters.

Windows CE = Niche Device
Pocket PC = Niche device with much more market share.
Windows Mobile = Huge success and even drove the former number one out of the game.

Zune 1 = Niche device
Zune 2 = Niche device
Zune 3 = Niche device

How long before they expect some level of success from the Zune? You can't tell me 2 million in 3 years is acceptable. Based on that, I believe cutting the price demonstrates a need to "SELL NOW or ELSE"

If that's not clear enough for you, I don't know how else to demonstrate it.

David Tucker

11-20-2008, 10:18 PM

You'd have to ask Microsoft what their goals are for the Zune. I know after year one they were at their goal of 1 million Zunes. The Windows Mobile devices took many years to take off but they did eventually so I don't think Microsoft is in uncharted territory.

As for your assertion that I don't want an iPod because I want nothing to do with Apple...you've missed the many times I've written that I'd have an iPod right now if Apple had subscription music when I bought my first MP3 player. I happen to think Apple makes beautiful consumer equipment.

Janak Parekh

11-20-2008, 10:30 PM

Except you don't care about all of the differentiating features. The Zune does many things the iPod does not and always has. It has a similar form factor (but superior...larger screen means a lot to me) but why would MS change that much? The iPod found a form factor that appealed to the masses...it works well. That doesn't mean that there isn't a better paradigm out there. I gave a couple of examples. I think there's a nontrivial consumer segment that would love to have a truly independent device that's not tied to a computer, and the Zune Marketplace could fill that easily.

Innovation has come in the form of features. One can argue what a feature is, and I think that's part of the problem. Certain features are checklist features that don't really affect the consumer market so much. Others are game changers. I'd like to see Microsoft introduce a game-changer. That's why the WiFi was so galling. It was the hint of something possibly much, much bigger.

Here's an example of what WiFi could do: let's say a friend of mine is listening to a song on his computer and thinks it is really neat. With a click, he should be able to queue it up for download on my player. Next time my player signs onto a network, it should prompt me and ask if I want to download it (or, download it at a low rate to avoid power drain and notify me when it's there). Then, I should be able to send it from there not only to other Zunes, but to other people, no matter what they are on; how about using MSN Messenger? Pull up my buddy list, click someone, send the song. That would be viral and compelling music sharing, and that might get me excited. Plus, it doesn't depend on your buddy having a Zune. (Integrating it into WMP, which is on every Windows desktop, would only make it even more pervasive and give a huge bootstrap to the system.)

I think Zune has several of the pieces in line for this, it's a matter of building them up to something bigger. I know the music labels are a big source of the problem with WiFi, so I'm not blaming Microsoft entirely for the limited approach. But, there's so much promise! I want them to run wild with it and redefine the idea of listening to music again.

--janak

jdmichal

11-20-2008, 11:01 PM

First, I'd like to say that I admire Dave's resiliance for continuing this thread long beyond the point when it was apparent that Vince is unreasonable. And by that, I mean unable to reason.

Vince, you still have NOT given a solid answer to this question:

What about the Zune price cuts makes it desperation? What is the differentiating factor between this price cut and any other random price cut that causes this? Please provide your answer in 5 paragraph format. Maybe that will force some real persuasive writing to come out.

To me, this smells like a price cut just to help out sales in bad times. Parallel: There's a huge rock concert in the Tampa Bay area every year, Next Big Thing (http://97xonline.com/NBT/). They did an election day special, where an "I voted!" sticker got you two tickets for the price of one. They had such an overwhelming response of people who thanked them, because they would not have been able to go otherwise, that they opened it up. They simply saw the needs of the people, and met it.

Vincent Ferrari

11-20-2008, 11:10 PM

First, I'd like to say that I admire Dave's resiliance for continuing this thread long beyond the point when it was apparent that Vince is unreasonable. And by that, I mean unable to reason.

Vince, you still have NOT given a solid answer to this question:

*sigh*

Here we go.

Again.

I don't think the price cut is bad (you seem to be drawing a lot of conclusions I'm not making). I said it demonstrated something: desperation, and unless you think their level of success is acceptable at this point in the Zune's evolution is acceptable, you can't look at this any other way.

Here's another way to look at it:

Xbox 1 = Niche device against Nintendo and Sony's offerings
Xbox 360 = Massive mainstream success in a crowded market against heavy hitters.

Windows CE = Niche Device
Pocket PC = Niche device with much more market share.
Windows Mobile = Huge success and even drove the former number one out of the game.

Zune 1 = Niche device
Zune 2 = Niche device
Zune 3 = Niche device

How long before they expect some level of success from the Zune? You can't tell me 2 million in 3 years is acceptable. Based on that, I believe cutting the price demonstrates a need to "SELL NOW or ELSE"

If that's not clear enough for you, I don't know how else to demonstrate it.

Whether or not you agree with it is immaterial; I have answered the question at least ten different times. Whether or not you like the answer is up to you.

jdmichal

11-20-2008, 11:18 PM

Second, Janak, I agree with you wholeheartedly. The major argument against it is what has been said before... The Zune allows you to share MUSIC, not FILES. The record companies still want their profits, hence such a strong DRM on even previously non-DRM'd files. Let's walk through this to show what I mean:

I go onto iTunes and buy a Plus song. OK. I put it on my Zune. OK. I wirelessly send it to another Zune player. OK. It does not have DRM on it. *BUZZER* I now just (illegally) gave them a free copy of a product I purchased, and which they would also have to purchase in order to legally own what I just gave them.

If you replace the music player above with an XBox 360, and the song with an XBox Arcade game, and it's clear that that should not be allowed. So what is different about a song?

The Zune already allows you to send a song or album to another user to download. Doing anything more would amount to piracy.

What I'm much more interested in is the integration with other platforms, which you also mentioned. And I am of the firm belief that this is definitely on the roadmap for Microsoft.

Vincent Ferrari

11-20-2008, 11:22 PM

I go onto iTunes and buy a Plus song. OK. I put it on my Zune. OK. I wirelessly send it to another Zune player. OK. It does not have DRM on it. *BUZZER* I now just (illegally) gave them a free copy of a product I purchased, and which they would also have to purchase in order to legally own what I just gave them.

If you replace the music player above with an XBox 360, and the song with an XBox Arcade game, and it's clear that that should not be allowed. So what is different about a song?

Because not every song on your Zune / iPod is illegal to copy. Ever hear of Magnatune? Everything there is free to share. That's how it is in 2008, but Microsoft is so far in the sack with Hollywood and the RIAA they can't bear the thought that you'd listen to anything that isn't copyrighted by an RIAA label.

The Zune already allows you to send a song or album to another user to download. Doing anything more would amount to piracy.

Not automatically, and that's a way oversimplistic explanation of both privacy and copyright.

Janak Parekh

11-20-2008, 11:22 PM

I go onto iTunes and buy a Plus song. OK. I put it on my Zune. OK. I wirelessly send it to another Zune player. OK. It does not have DRM on it. *BUZZER* I now just (illegally) gave them a free copy of a product I purchased, and which they would also have to purchase in order to legally own what I just gave them. So wrap it in DRM, then, if necessary. But a DRM that works. How about unlimited plays for a week (or, heck, a day), at which point the song cleanly expires and provides the user with a "Buy" or "Delete" option. That would be compelling for me.

What I'm much more interested in is the integration with other platforms, which you also mentioned. And I am of the firm belief that this is definitely on the roadmap for Microsoft. We'll see. Microsoft's been very quiet about the roadmap. Which is fine if you're the market leader, but I'm not sure what Microsoft's best sales strategy is right now.

--janak

Snowmation

11-20-2008, 11:24 PM

Janak Parekh

11-20-2008, 11:24 PM

Because not every song on your Zune / iPod is illegal to copy. Ever hear of Magnatune? Everything there is free to share. That's how it is in 2008, but Microsoft is so far in the sack with Hollywood and the RIAA they can't bear the thought that you'd listen to anything that isn't copyrighted by an RIAA label. I was going to say exactly this, but one of the problems is that differing policies based on the track makes for a really confusing user experience. I personally have no answer to that. :( But, perhaps, how about this: no DRM on free music, but a reasonable DRM wrapper on music label music?

I'm not sure, but I think one can do better and more compelling than the current Zune platform. The the Windows population into the ecosystem, and all of a sudden it's a lot bigger.

--janak

robschoenfel

11-20-2008, 11:25 PM

I've never seen such a spirited discussion in a forum. Just for future reference her is the "accepted" definition of a fanboy:

Fanboy is a term used to describe any individual who is devoted to a single subject in an emotional or fanatical manner, or to a single point of view within that subject, often to the point where it is considered an obsession.

I would say Vincent easily fits that description. Arguing with him is like shouting at a wall. "Vince is unreasonable. And by that, I mean unable to reason." Is hitting the nail on the head. I wonder how many Ipods he gets from Apple to so one sided. What a wind bag.

Oh yea Bill Gates was one of the poineers of moderm computing like him or hate him Windows has it place as does Apple.

jdmichal

11-20-2008, 11:30 PM

So your argument is this: The Zune has not dominated the market in the x years since its release, therefore Microsoft is desperate?

I would have to disagree with that point. But, I realize that my disagreement would not hold any more weight than yours. Because neither of us knows what Microsoft intended its sales-path of the Zune to be.

This is the closest I can come to a substantial argument, and it is still speculative: That the development path of the Zune shows that they are still very much developing its features, and exploring and exploiting its potential. The other products you mentioned were all very much feature complete at the times of their 'takeover' of the market. The Zune is not there yet.

Janak Parekh

11-20-2008, 11:38 PM

I've never seen such a spirited discussion in a forum. You're kidding, right? How many forums do you read? Here's a classic example from Pocket PC Thoughts years ago. (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/news/show/38126/which-pda-is-quot-simple-quot-again.html) This thread is nowhere near that one.

Fanboy is a term used to describe any individual who is devoted to a single subject in an emotional or fanatical manner, or to a single point of view within that subject, often to the point where it is considered an obsession.
I would say Vincent easily fits that description. Using your own definition (which you didn't cite, by the way), I take the total opposite viewpoint. Is every thought on this site obsessed about the Zune and Microsoft? No. Has Vinny said those that disagree are stupid or wrong? No.

Just because you don't like his opinion doesn't make him a fanboy. You're looking for a completely unbiased statement, and this is the wrong site for that. If you think his argument isn't particularly good, that's an opinion you're welcome to have.

Oh yea Bill Gates was one of the poineers of moderm computing like him or hate him Windows has it place as does Apple. What does that have anything to do with on this thread? :confused: Are you trying to turn this into an Apple vs. Microsoft discussion? There are plenty of fanboy Mac vs. PC flamewars on the web today.

--janak

jdmichal

11-20-2008, 11:44 PM

I was going to say exactly this, but one of the problems is that differing policies based on the track makes for a really confusing user experience. I personally have no answer to that. :( But, perhaps, how about this: no DRM on free music, but a reasonable DRM wrapper on music label music?

I'm not sure, but I think one can do better and more compelling than the current Zune platform. The the Windows population into the ecosystem, and all of a sudden it's a lot bigger.

--janak

It's not only confusing for the user, but also for the player. How is it supposed to know the difference? The MP3 format has no ability to differentiate this information. At least not in a secure, untamperable, interoperable manner. This is the only manner that this can be done to guarantee absolutely to the record industry that their rights will be protected.

What COULD happen is a DRM format that has a mode that allows for free copying of the music. Basically, a DRM that permits open rights. Then, the player would unambiguously know that that track could be freely sent to another.

The Zune's current policy is not that much different than what you advocate for Janak. You have three playbacks of the song, with no time limit. You can purchase the song at any point, and it will fix the DRM the next time you sync. I think what you're really looking for is a seamless integration between the song expiring, and the user purchasing it. I agree that this is an area that could be improved.

And I've long moved on beyond the 'RIAA is evil' thing. In fact, it basically correlated to me getting a job and no longer feeling the need to pirate music. To me, the only evil thing about the RIAA is the way they treat artists. Other than that, they are simply trying to protect their rights to their property. As another who creates digital content that can be easily copied and distributed at no cost, I cannot fault them for that.

Janak Parekh

11-20-2008, 11:51 PM

It's not only confusing for the user, but also for the player. How is it supposed to know the difference? The MP3 format has no ability to differentiate this information. At least not in a secure, untamperable, interoperable manner. This is the only manner that this can be done to guarantee absolutely to the record industry that their rights will be protected. Well, WMA/AAC let you include some DRM metadata. No reason you couldn't specify the rights in that format for store-bought music. As for non-store material, the conservative approach would be to allow no MP3 sharing, only store music, although a better approach might be to use CDDB or other identification technologies for music people have ripped themselves.

The Zune's current policy is not that much different than what you advocate for Janak. You have three playbacks of the song, with no time limit. Honestly, I find 3 playbacks to be terrible. Does that mean three complete playbacks, partial playbacks, etc.? I sometimes have to interrupt my listening because someone walks into my office, and I want to be able to restart the track. It's certainly better than what it used to be, but I hope Microsoft can improve this.

And I've long moved on beyond the 'RIAA is evil' thing. In fact, it basically correlated to me getting a job and no longer feeling the need to pirate music. For what it's worth, I never pirated music, and I still think the RIAA is a shortsighted organization that's hurting both themselves and their artists. (Case in point: Pandora. There was a movement to vastly increase the costs of streaming radio listening on the Internet. It's short-sighted. Pandora has caused me to buy tons of music as of late, and I hope they aren't forced out of business.)

--janak

jdmichal

11-21-2008, 12:08 AM

Well, WMA/AAC let you include some DRM metadata. No reason you couldn't specify the rights in that format for store-bought music. As for non-store material, the conservative approach would be to allow no MP3 sharing, only store music, although a better approach might be to use CDDB or other identification technologies for music people have ripped themselves.

I think we're in agreement here. Since tagging information is easy to spoof, it's clear that non-verifiably free music would simply be unsharable, or only sharable with a forced DRM as now.

Honestly, I find 3 playbacks to be terrible. Does that mean three complete playbacks, partial playbacks, etc.? I sometimes have to interrupt my listening because someone walks into my office, and I want to be able to restart the track. It's certainly better than what it used to be, but I hope Microsoft can improve this.

I'm not sure on the semantics about 'playback'. But this is more of a half-dozen of one, six of another. As you said, it's better than how it started. Hopefully Microsoft will keep fighting to move in a positive direction.

For what it's worth, I never pirated music, and I still think the RIAA is a shortsighted organization that's hurting both themselves and their artists. (Case in point: Pandora. There was a movement to vastly increase the costs of streaming radio listening on the Internet. It's short-sighted. Pandora has caused me to buy tons of music as of late, and I hope they aren't forced out of business.)

--janak

I agree that they are shortsighted, and are severely damaging on multiple levels of business. But, they have that right to NOT help themselves or others. Does it frustrate me? Sure. But if anything, it's obvious by now that the only thing that can possibly bring change there is new management that understands the new business models possible and their potential.

Pony99CA

11-21-2008, 01:03 AM

Pony99CA

11-21-2008, 01:09 AM

It's the biggest both in sales and library. By having the biggest library, by default, there are things there you won't be able to get elsewhere (aside from brick and mortar).
Sorry, Vincent, but that's not logical. Consider this:

Store 1 sells music collections A, B & C
Store 2 sells music collections A & B
Store 3 sells music collections B & C

Store 1 certainly has the biggest library, but doesn't contain anything you couldn't get from Stores 2 & 3. So your conclusion is fallacious.

Now I'm not saying that iTunes doesn't have exclusives, just that your "logic" doesn't back that up.

Steve

Jason Dunn

11-21-2008, 04:26 AM

It's a shame that this fallacy redden dribble originated from the same group that provided very fair and UNBIASED coverage of the Zune. The fact that your waffling about the whole situation is even more entertaining. Please take your fan boy editorial and shove them.

You've only posted in our forums eight times, so perhaps this isn't something you're aware of, but hostility like you're displaying is not tolerated here. We strive for reasonable, helpful conversation in our community. You're welcome to disagree with Vincent as much as you want - healthy debate is part of what makes our forums work so well - but the way you're going about it is not acceptable.

Jason Dunn

11-21-2008, 04:42 AM

I agree that the Zune flash players need an aesthetic makeover. Personally, I think the new iPod nanos look ridiculous (curved screen? Is this 1985?), but I thought the previous generation looked much better than the Zune.

The "Nano Phatty"? I didn't like that design at all...then again, I like the design of the current Zune line up. I do wish there wasn't such huge screen bezel though...

Macguy59

11-21-2008, 05:31 AM

I assure you that I will listen to far more music than you can ever dream of through my subscription. .

You will or you could ? I read this argument quite a bit. I would wager that most people are really not listening to more music via subscriptions than they would otherwise. For the record I'm not against the subscription model.

Jason Dunn

11-21-2008, 05:45 AM

Underpowered WiFi: DRM gets tagged to the songs you 'squirt' to other Zune users whether you have it on the original or not. That's inexcusable. Period. Not everything on everyone's Zune is RIAA music.

V1 wireless sharing sucked - no disagreement there. Now? There's still some DRM for music - but now you can listen to anything shared with you three times, even if that means you have it for six months. The original 3 days/3 plays thing was ridiculous, but the new plan of unlimited time/3 plays...not too shabby. After three listens to a song, you'll probably know if you like it or not. Let's be realistic here too, a lot of people were just pissed at this feature because they thought they would pirate music with greater ease. Microsoft isn't going to enable wireless music piracy.

What else can you share? Photos and podcasts - including video podcasts. Photos are yours to keep and share if you wish. Podcasts aren't tagged with any sort of limitation on playback, so you can listen/watch to those as much as you want. If you like the podcast, guess what you can do? Subscribe to it right from your device, and add it to your collection of podcasts - it moves it from the SOCIAL area to the PODCAST area. There are a lot of things that the iPod does well, but from a podcasting standpoint, the Zune is the best device there is - period. Podcasters LOVE the Zune, or they should if they knew what it could do. The Zune makes Podcasting a first-class citizens. The iPod treats is like an ugly dog it wants to keep in the basement.

[quote=Vincent Ferrari;696943]Secondly, unless I'm mistaken, you STILL have to plug it into a power source to do a wireless sync.

You are mistaken. Please don't believe what that idiot at Roughly Drafted says. I emailed him, quite politely, to explain that the Zune can do a wireless sync without being plugged into power. It only requires power for an auto-synchronization, meaning you come home plugin your Zune, and it will kick off a sync automatically. You want to kick off a wireless sync manually? Just click the menu option and boom, it does it. He refused to change his article saying that it didn't work that way - the guy is simply a liar. Any writer that doesn't accept factual correction is trying to decieve his readers. He's very talented at weaving deception with his writing - I'm quite impressed by it actually.

I don't know how you feel about your stance on this issue now, but if you look at the price cut + 10 tracks a month with the Zune subscription, I don't see desperation: I see a strong product positioning for the holiday shopping season in a very rough economic market. And that's smart business.

Jason Dunn

11-21-2008, 05:53 AM

My frustration comes from a very simple perspective. Microsoft had a prime opportunity to dominate the market, and instead came out with the first Zune. Fair enough. First gen devices don't usually blow us away. Then they came out with Zune 2.0 which was, essentially, the same device with different firmware.

Um, dude? You're wrong here. V1 were the big, clunky Zunes that were off the shelf Toshiba reference designs, and they used a re-skinned Windows Media Player for software. V1 was pretty weak, though some people dug it.

V2 was a complete re-design. Brand new hardware, brand new software. Radically different in every way, and radically better. This was when I got really excited about the Zune. I *love* my customized, tattooed 80 GB red Zune.

V3 is where we're at now. Near-identical hardware, only more storage. Pretty weak - I was hoping for new hardware, new form factors. Software? They're doing some really interesting stuff - games, audiobooks, lots of new Zune Pass stuff.

The iPod has massive, overwhelming mindshare - that's a brutally hard problem to overcome, and it's not something that is tackled overnight or in 20% marketshare jumps. Look at Palm vs. Windows Mobile. Palm had massive mindshare, and it took Microsoft basically eight years to take them out. These things take time, and Apple is a much stronger player than Palm was, so I don't expect the Zune to "take out" the iPod. But I do expect the Zune to slowly but surely continue to grow in marketshare - and that's the way markets are one.

If you substitute "Windows" for "Palm" and "OS X" for "Windows Mobile", you'll probably see some parallels that you'd agree with. ;)

Jason Dunn

11-21-2008, 06:01 AM

Yes I'm aware it's not the same group, but Zune Thoughts has always provided unbiased/interesting content on Zune's strengths and weakness’. Is it not fair to expect this same standard from this site?

Well, I'm flattered that you consider Zune Thoughts to be an un-biased site, but honestly, we are pretty biased - we're pro-Zune, hence the name. Goodness knows I've taken more than a few swipes at the iPod, Apple, and Steve Jobs in particular on Zune Thoughts and my other sites. I don't consider myself very un-biased when it comes to Apple - I have some pretty strongly held opinions about Apple. In the same way, Vincent has some feelings about the Zune and Microsoft - and as the Executive Editor of this site, he's going to express them here. If you want to see REAL fanboyism and brutally unfair "reporting", just check out any number of Mac sites, then come back here - and you'll see Apple Thoughts is quite balanced.

I think it's important to see the difference though between being biased and being a fanboy. Having a bias does't mean you can't be critical of the thing you're biased towards. So while I'm pro-Zune, I'm still quite critical of the Zune and the ways in which is needs to improve. Fanboys are incapable of criticising the thing they're talking about - and Vincent isn't a fanboy. If you read his Macbook review, you'll see he's quite even-handed in his treatment of the Apple product.

Jason Dunn

11-21-2008, 06:05 AM

You don't enter a mature market with a clone of the market leader and hope to succeed. What you're suggesting is what I was hoping for: a new paradigm from a company with a gigantic R&D budget. What we got, however, was another device.

Well then how to new car companies enter the market? All mainstream consumer cars have four wheels, right? They just come in different sizes, colours, etc. In mature markets, form-factors are pretty much determined. We've seen MP3 players embedded in necklaces, headphones, and lots of other crazy things - and they all fail. The evolution of the MP3 player market will be slow, based on small jumps - like the iPod to the iPod Touch, etc.

Jason Dunn

11-21-2008, 06:19 AM

Because not every song on your Zune / iPod is illegal to copy. Ever hear of Magnatune? Everything there is free to share.

I agree with this to a certain extent - let's say I'm an indy band and I have a track that I want to send to other people, let it go viral, and get shared around so people get to know the sound of my band. Great in theory right? Let's get real though: until there are at LEAST 10x more Zunes in the market, that scenario isn't very real. I just don't think the Zune team needs to focus on this problem with now, especially since they allow for unlimited sharing of podcasts. That was the important one to fix.

And, bro, Magnatune? Come on, you're telling me your iPod is full of indy music from Magnatune and you're just ITCHING to share it with other people and Microsoft is TOTALLY screwing up by not allowing this? Come on, level with us... ;)

Jason Dunn

11-21-2008, 06:21 AM

So wrap it in DRM, then, if necessary. But a DRM that works. How about unlimited plays for a week (or, heck, a day), at which point the song cleanly expires and provides the user with a "Buy" or "Delete" option. That would be compelling for me.

And not for me. I don't listen to my Zune every day, so ANYTHING that is time-based sucks in my opinion. I had a buddy send me an album with the V1 Zune and I didn't get to it in time and I never got to listen to it once. Three plays over unlimited days is quite reasonable IMO. After three plays you're going to know if you like something or not. That's DRM that works IMO.

Jason Dunn

11-21-2008, 06:24 AM

I have to say I'm very disappointed in you guys for posting this article, I had really hoped this site would be a different Apple site. Please don't turn the site into another Apple fanboy site that just has to bring up Microsoft every chance it can get and then knock them and their products and talk about how Apple is so much better.

This is the first article of this sort that Vincent has posted, so one thing does not a pattern make. I really do believe this is a different sort of Apple site, but I also believe that Vincent has every right to criticize Microsoft here on Apple Thoughts in the same way that I have the right to criticize Apple on Digital Home Thoughts. Remember that criticizing isn't the same as bashing. I didn't see Vincent bashing the Zune - he was just criticizing it, and that's fair game for site editorial.

Jason Dunn

11-21-2008, 06:28 AM

I would say Vincent easily fits that description. Arguing with him is like shouting at a wall. "Vince is unreasonable. And by that, I mean unable to reason." Is hitting the nail on the head. I wonder how many Ipods he gets from Apple to so one sided. What a wind bag.

This is your first post in our forum, so I'll extend the same gentle warning to you as I gave to another person in this thread: name calling and hostility are not accepted here. If you want to have a civil, spirited discussion where differing opinions are shared in a spirit of mutual respect, you're welcome to remain in these forums. If you want to call someone names, you can go elsewhere.

Jason Dunn

11-21-2008, 06:31 AM

Well, this is officially the longest thread so far on Apple Thoughts, which is cool.

What's not cool is the name calling and some posts that are just way too hostile. Let's keep it civil ok? :)

Deslock

11-21-2008, 01:06 PM

This thread is much ado about nothing as Vincent's original post isn't any more biased than many stories posted at ppcthoughts. But given that thoughtsmedia is a Microsoft enthusiast community, the reaction is not surprising (nor, I suspect, is it entirely unwelcome as controversy = hit counts... just look at the length of the more inflamatory threads at ppcthoughts).

At first I was a little surprised that Jason started applethoughts, but it makes sense considering that ppcthoughts initially emerged from the ashes of pdabuzz (which had a large community in no small part due to PPC/PalmOS flamefests - and many of those users migrated to ppcthoughts when Wes Salmon left pdabuzz). Spirited debates attract users.

Back to the topic, I dunno if I would call the price cuts desperation, but I don't think it's especially insulting either as clearly the Zune has not had the sales Microsoft wanted. Anyone from Zunethoughts feel free to update/correct these numbers, but according to wikipedia, 1.2M 1st generation Zunes sold between Nov 06 and Jun 07 and total cumulative sales were 2M by May 08. Some have speculated that the first 1.2M includes giveaways... I dunno if that's true, but I wouldn't be surprised given than it took a another year to reach 2M (during which the 2nd gen was launched and the 1st gen was marked way down).

The point is that 2M units sold in 1.5 years and no launch outside of N America is not exactly steller in a market this big. Even if wikipedia's numbers are off, can anyone really call Zune a success? I'm not bashing it mind you... personally, I thought the first generation Zune 30 was a POS, but the more recent models are quite nice (certainly much better than the iPod classic and the squat nano... though I'd have to give the nod to the new nano and iPod touch).

Apple did just lower the prices on their MacBooks, didn't they? Perhaps that's the more apt comparison - that's a market where they are competing against the established giant.Apple dropped the price on the old plastic Macbook only because the new aluminum unibody model came out (which is more akin to the Zune 30 being available on-the-cheap when the Zune 80 was released).

onlydarksets

11-21-2008, 03:58 PM

Apple dropped the price on the old plastic Macbook only because the new aluminum unibody model came out (which is more akin to the Zune 30 being available on-the-cheap when the Zune 80 was released).
They were already price distinguished - the plastic MacBook was $1099, now it's $999. The new MacBook is $1299.

Nobody knows exactly why they dropped the price. I believe it was so they could offer a sub-$1000 notebook in order to increase their marketshare, where they drastically trail Windows-based laptops. That's not desperation - that's a reasonable business decision. I just don't understand why the same assumption isn't afforded MS.

onlydarksets

11-21-2008, 04:00 PM

The "Nano Phatty"? I didn't like that design at all...then again, I like the design of the current Zune line up. I do wish there wasn't such huge screen bezel though...
I was just trying to throw the fanboys a bone - secretly I hate everything Apple, even my iPhone ;)

onlydarksets

11-21-2008, 04:07 PM

Snowmation

11-21-2008, 05:10 PM

This is the first article of this sort that Vincent has posted, so one thing does not a pattern make. I really do believe this is a different sort of Apple site, but I also believe that Vincent has every right to criticize Microsoft here on Apple Thoughts in the same way that I have the right to criticize Apple on Digital Home Thoughts. Remember that criticizing isn't the same as bashing. I didn't see Vincent bashing the Zune - he was just criticizing it, and that's fair game for site editorial.
The head line alone goes to show that its more than criticizing....at least that's how I read it. To me these types of stories hurts Apple themed sites and limits their readership to only the true blue Apple fans. It just gets old always reading stories about how great Apple and their products are and how bad Microsoft and their products are.

Apple themed sites to me should be careful of taking elitist attitudes, and I just hope Applethoughts doesn't go down that path. I can't speak for anyone else, but that type of attitude turns me off from such sites.

Vincent Ferrari

11-21-2008, 05:21 PM

Apple themed sites to me should be careful of taking elitist attitudes, and I just hope Applethoughts doesn't go down that path. I can't speak for anyone else, but that type of attitude turns me off from such sites.

You're drawing a lot of conclusions for one post on a two-week old site, though, aren't you?

And not for nothing, but did you miss my criticism of Apple for their featureset on the iPhone (in the Sweden MMS article) or my multiple criticisms of Apple's MacBook Pro trackpad?

I'm hardly a fanboy, it just seems that this criticism has riled some people who have managed to ignore every other post I've written.

robschoenfel

11-21-2008, 05:30 PM

"What a wind bag" is name calling and "Zune Price Cuts = Desperation" isn't? What sort of double standard censorship do you allow in the name of page hits. Fact this site is a Apple Fan Boy site. Vince is the executive editor and provides most of the content, hence by the defination I previously posted he is a Apple fan boy.

The fact that you allow this makes me question your ethics Jason, your simply in it for the advertising dollars and not interested in providing fair unbaised facts about the subject matter in question. For the name calling I am sorry, but for your greedy pocket lining ways you should be ashamed. I will not be coming back to any of your sites and will encourage like minded poeple to not as well.

Snowmation

11-21-2008, 05:31 PM

You're drawing a lot of conclusions for one post on a two-week old site, though, aren't you?

And not for nothing, but did you miss my criticism of Apple for their featureset on the iPhone (in the Sweden MMS article) or my multiple criticisms of Apple's MacBook Pro trackpad?

I'm hardly a fanboy, it just seems that this criticism has riled some people who have managed to ignore every other post I've written.
I have not drawn any conclusions....I said I HOPE the site doesn't go down that path....not that it has. And Apple Fan sites do criticize Apple products, that's nothing new....what is annoying though is they always seem to feel the need to bring up Microsoft. They, like the Apple ads, like to knock Microsoft instead of talking about their own products.

I just want to come here and find out whats going on in the world of Apple.....clearly I can't tell you how to run your site, I just know what I hope to see here....and what I hope not to see here.

Vincent Ferrari

11-21-2008, 05:37 PM

I have not drawn any conclusions....I said I HOPE the site doesn't go down that path....not that it has. And Apple Fan sites do criticize Apple products, that's nothing new....what is annoying though is they always seem to feel the need to bring up Microsoft. They, like the Apple ads, like to knock Microsoft instead of talking about their own products.

Who doesn't take shots at the market leader in any segment? Even Jason has been known to take shots at Apple from time to time. It's what happens.

I just want to come here and find out whats going on in the world of Apple.....clearly I can't tell you how to run your site, I just know what I hope to see here....and what I hope not to see here.

If you see anything you're not happy with or you see a pattern (ie: more than one post) you're not comfortable with, contact me directly. I have no problem leaving myself out there for criticism as long as it's valid.

Vincent Ferrari

11-21-2008, 05:39 PM

"What a wind bag" is name calling and "Zune Price Cuts = Desperation" isn't?

"Vincent is a windbag" is name calling.

"Microsoft made a move out of desperation" does not call anyone anything, just calls a move made by a company a desperate one. Like it or not, that's not name-calling in any book.

Janak Parekh

11-21-2008, 05:41 PM

And not for me. I don't listen to my Zune every day, so ANYTHING that is time-based sucks in my opinion. I had a buddy send me an album with the V1 Zune and I didn't get to it in time and I never got to listen to it once. Three plays over unlimited days is quite reasonable IMO. After three plays you're going to know if you like something or not. That's DRM that works IMO. Well, here's my thought process - I'll freely admit it's not thought out, but I think we can do better with what we have now.

I'd like to see real viral progression on the Zune platform. I specifically mentioned tying the desktop into this. For this to work, people have to fairly regularly listen to music and "check in" with their Zune or MSN or whatever account to see that someone's sent something. In this manner, we could see a graph of people sharing the track forming, starting perhaps with one PC, then to a few Zunes and PCs, and yet to more PCs and Zunes, and so on.

To me, three plays isn't enough for this... maybe it's just me. I certainly understand your point as well. I'm sure something in the middle could be designed, e.g. valid for one week from first play. I don't know, I'm just brainstorming. ;)

--janak

Janak Parekh

11-21-2008, 05:43 PM

Microsoft made a move out of desperation does not call anyone anything, just calls a move made by a company a desperate one. Like it or not, that's not name-calling in any book. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people take criticism of their favorite company as a personal attack. This happens on both sides, and it's stupid. I own a ton of Apple products, but a rare day goes by where I don't call them dumb or lame for something.

--janak

Vincent Ferrari

11-21-2008, 05:44 PM

Snowmation

11-21-2008, 06:14 PM

The Zune price cut part of Cnet's The Buzz Report was mad funny (as was the Yahoo story). Videos - Free video downloads and streaming video - CNET TV (http://cnettv.cnet.com/2001-1_53-50004549.html) :D

Yeah I know I just added to the fire here.....but when its funny, bashing is good. lol :p

onlydarksets

11-21-2008, 06:27 PM

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people take criticism of their favorite company as a personal attack. This happens on both sides, and it's stupid. I own a ton of Apple products, but a rare day goes by where I don't call them dumb or lame for something.

--janak

There is definitely fanboyism on the MS side, as well. However, the problem with this thread is that, unlike Vincent's other, well-thought out posts, the original post here was conclusory and not well researched or supported.

The conclusion that Microsoft's price cuts are a "desperation" move is contrary to conventional wisdom, which is that prices decline over time, they decline to increase competition, they decline during the holidays, and they decline during recessions. All three are at play here. Apple's unwillingness to move on pricing is a sign of their market strength - it's not "normal".

Furthermore, the logic of the argument in the initial post is mostly unsupported. You have to show your work, or else it does come across as, effectively, an ad hominem attack (regardless of your intent).

Lastly, the supporting facts aren't well researched or explained. Wifi and DRM are vaguely cited as problems, but it's not clear how so.

Some of these issues were addressed in subsequent posts, but by omitting them from the initial post, it comes across as a "M$ sucks because they didn't do the things that Apple did" post.

Vincent - I hope you take this as constructive feedback, which is the intent. If this comes across as anything else, let me know and I'll try to update the post to be more clear.

Vincent Ferrari

11-21-2008, 06:30 PM

Okay. I'm making an executive decision here.

This thread is officially dead.

It's going nowhere anyway.

I'll be more careful in the future. Promise.

Jason Dunn

11-21-2008, 08:51 PM

At first I was a little surprised that Jason started applethoughts, but it makes sense considering that ppcthoughts initially emerged from the ashes of pdabuzz (which had a large community in no small part due to PPC/PalmOS flamefests - and many of those users migrated to ppcthoughts when Wes Salmon left pdabuzz). Spirited debates attract users.

This isn't on-topic, but I felt I should respond to this: while it's true that when PDAbuzz went up in flames (so to speak) Pocket PC Thoughts did get an influx of community members from that site, I can assure you that were were around long before that happened, and had our own community. We did not "emerge from the ashes" of PDAbuzz.

The point is that 2M units sold in 1.5 years and no launch outside of N America is not exactly steller in a market this big. Even if wikipedia's numbers are off, can anyone really call Zune a success?

I think it's been a success only if you look at it for what it is: a new product, a new brand, competing against a massively established brand. I don't think ANY product from ANY company at ANY price could dislodge the iPod overnight. When a company has such massive control over the market, you can't overthrow them - you have to chip away at them slowly. Just ask Apple when it comes to the desktop/laptop space. ;)

The Zune has so far only been fully launched in one country. Why aren't they launching in more countries? Why doesn't Canada have a Zune Marketplace yet? Why haven't they created a smaller Flash-based Zune or a touch-screen Zune? All great questions. It seems like Microsoft isn't giving the Zune enough resources to really compete with Apple, and I think that's what Vincent was getting at...

Jason Dunn

11-21-2008, 09:00 PM

"What a wind bag" is name calling and "Zune Price Cuts = Desperation" isn't? What sort of double standard censorship do you allow in the name of page hits.

Calling someone a "wind bag" is a personal attack. The Zune is not a person, hence it cannot be personally attacked. The Zune does not have feelings, I assure you. An inflammatory headline? Certainly. But it's not "name calling". It's one thing to criticize a product or a company - it's quite another to criticize a person and call them names. If you can't see the difference, I'm not sure what else to say.

The fact that you allow this makes me question your ethics Jason, your simply in it for the advertising dollars and not interested in providing fair unbaised facts about the subject matter in question. For the name calling I am sorry, but for your greedy pocket lining ways you should be ashamed. I will not be coming back to any of your sites and will encourage like minded poeple to not as well.

Because I discourage name-calling in our forums, you're questioning my ethics? That's a bit strange. I don't like to see bullying in any form, and name calling is bullying. Most would consider that ethical behaviour.

Again I have to remind you that a site called "Apple Thoughts" isn't going to be un-biased. This isn't CNN where journalists try to remain neutral and only present the facts to their viewers. A site with the name "Apple Thoughts" is going to be, GASP, pro-Apple! It's a site for Apple enthusiasts BY Apple enthusiasts, just like Pocket PC Thoughts is a site run by Windows Mobile enthusiasts. What part of that don't you understand?