HTC to USA: "No Touch HD for You"

[Darius Wey]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://twitter.com/htc/statuses/948774282' target='_blank'>http://twitter.com/htc/statuses/948774282</a><br /><br /></div><p><img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com/resizer/thumbs/size/600/ppct/auto/1223381990.usr2.jpg" border="1" /></p><p>Imagine witnessing the unveiling of a spectacular device, only to be denied access to it through local channels. Imagine no more. Just yesterday, HTC <a href="http://twitter.com/htc/statuses/948774282" target="_blank">tweeted</a> that the <a href="http://www.htc.com/www/product.aspx?id=64790" target="_blank">Touch HD</a> would not be released in the US. And, as you would expect, a good number of Touch HD fans made it clear that they weren't happy. <a href="http://twitter.com/htc/statuses/948811620" target="_blank">HTC's response</a> was pretty much salt in the wound, with the company suggesting that it previously had no idea that there was huge demand for high-end devices in the US, but now it knows! There's your cue for some facepalm action.</p>

[bubuschoeny]

Doesn't HTC know the American way? We over consume on personal electronics. I think I just got kicked int he nuts, ouch.

[tnels!]

So, why can't an American company build a phone that is as good or better than the HD?? Who do we really have to blame (or complain to) here?

[efjay]

Unfortunately the American way is to prefer free or as cheap as possible phones which doesnt do HTC any good if they want to turn a profit on the Touch HD. The number of sales they would get from users of sites like this willing to import is small compared to the number they would attract with a carrier subsidy so catering to such a small market really isnt the best business for HTC.

[Rocco Augusto]

I was under the impression that the US version of the HTC Touch was selling out a fair bit from Best Buy and it is a fantastic seller on Sprint's CDMA network. The demand for high end HTC phones are there if you choose not to ignore the sales numbers ;)

[frankenbike]

With the Touch HD selling for 850 Euros, they'd have to sell it for $1000 in the states to make the same money. Even with subsidies, it would still come to no less than $700.

Definitely not competitive with the iPhone for far less money in the GSM market. I don't even think it would go over that well in the CDMA market. And especially now, with the current economic crisis, a $1000 phone just couldn't sell well enough to make it worth their while.

I think they've got it right. We're cheap bastards, and they know we're not gonna spend that much on phones we know we'll be replacing in two years.

Still waiting for that 1/2" (12.5mm) thick keyboard phone ;)

I also think that for a high res phone, they need the killer app of a browser like Skyfire to be ready for market anyway.

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[burtcom]

I'm probably not a typical US consumer -- two years ago I paid $600 for my unlocked Eten M700.

I _might_ be willing to pay $800 US for a top-of-the-line phone, as long as it was fast, had lots of memory, excellent battery life, good media playback (coule replace my ipod) and a good service record -- and if I was absolutely in love with it.

But $1000 plus? No thank you.

I'm looking at the Touch Pro mid-next year if/when the price comes down to about $800. Of course if my banged-up M700 dies before then who knows...

[whydidnt]

This stinks. I'm sure that because of the price of this device, it would be a difficult sale without carrier subsidy. AT&T probably didn't want to pick it up because it's a direct competitor to their money-printing license (iPhone).

It still doesn't makes sense to me that HTC doesn't include the N.A. band radios by default. They have previously included them (TyTn I & II) and HP and Palm both managed to do the same with their relatively slim 910 and Pro. It CAN'T add that much cost the manufacture of these units. And if the radio was already there, they could offer these through Best Buy or the like. I don't understand why HTC thinks it's a good thing to limit the size of their potential market as they continue to insist on doing with each product release. This is especially confusing when you consider that the HD is a high end device which will have a somewhat limited market to begin with.

I know HTC says there isn't room in these devices for the "extra radio", but I think that's BS. I think for whatever reason they are artificially limiting access to these devices in the US. Perhaps to keep the all-powerful carriers happy, by not competiting with them??:confused: Thereby making it easier to get the carriers to pickup their next new device.

It would sure be nice for Microsoft to step to the plate and find an OEM partner willing to deliver a true competitor to the iPhone in their own home country! I know MS believes that providing the software, while others provide the hardware is best. However, that shouldn't preclude them from assisting an OEM in the design and delivery of a best in class device. Intel has done a good job of this with their MIDs, which we are now starting to see trickle in.

[Reid Kistler]

FWIW: Was talking to my favorite AT&T Rep about the upcoming Fuze, and the response I got was "Probably, but don't hold your breath..."

Seems their store just received a shipment of 300 (!) Tilts with the latest version of Windows Mobile (6.1 - ?), so they are not expecting anything else in that line "soon."
And, on top of that, "We are having trouble GIVING the Tilts away. No one wants to spend $300 on any other phone once they see the iPhone" - even though it (the iPhone) is "not great for business use."
Apparently business users ARE still drawn to the Blackberrys, and he is currently carrying around a Samsung BlackJackII - which apparently works a lot better with the latest WM upgrade.

He also spoke of a number of units that were Announced as future releases - but got Canceled before ever making it to market due the decision that there would be insufficient sales to justify the attempt.

In his opinion: In America, the market is driven by the carriers - you buy what your carrier offers you, and you do so at a subsidized price. In Europe, the market is driven by the manufacturers - you buy the phone you want, and then shop around for a carrier, as they all use the same technology...

One thing I know: cannot imagine ever spending $700 - or even $400 - for a phone, no matter how fancy. Can understand the appeal - and perhaps the rationalization for someone who is using it in place of several devices - but simply do not see enough Personal Benefit to justify that kind of outlay.

Apparently - as someone has already noted - the manufacturers / carriers tend to believe that there is a Very Limited Market for high-end phones in the US.

[whydidnt]

Definitely not competitive with the iPhone for far less money in the GSM market. I don't even think it would go over that well in the CDMA market.

Why? The CDMA market is just as big as GSM in the US. I don't really think there is a huge difference in the demographic makeup of either, is there?


I think they've got it right. We're cheap bastards, and they know we're not gonna spend that much on phones we know we'll be replacing in two years.

Pretty accurate statement - though 6 months per phone are all some of us seem to make it. :o


Still waiting for that 1/2" (12.5mm) thick keyboard phone ;)
The HP iPaq 910 almost gets there at 16 mm. I wouldn't consider it too thick. However, it has other issues - small screen, eats battery like a kid eats sugar, somewhat slow, can't rotate screen etc. But we are getting there!;)


I also think that for a high res phone, they need the killer app of a browser like Skyfire to be ready for market anyway.

Except Skyfire only works on QVGA devices today. Actually Opera 9.5 is pretty decent - not quite as good as Safari on the iPhone, but more stable, in my experience. Hopefully we'll see Mobile Firefox soon and and make this even less of an issue.

[cgavula]

And Skyfire isn't a browser - it's more like a screen-scraper. It's closer to a Citrix client than a true browser. You'll still need a browser to view local / off-line content.

[JesterMania]

I don't understand why they can't just place all the 3G bands and be done with it. They can do 850/1900 or 900/2100 so why not combine them all or have at least 3 of them (i.e. 850/900/2100 like the TyTN/TyTN II). I don't buy into the excuse whereby adding more bands apparently makes the device bigger. This reminds me of the time someone opened up a phone and discovered the MiniSD slot (which was supposed to save a lot of room) was just as large as a regular SD slot.

[wmm]

FWIW: Was talking to my favorite AT&T Rep about the upcoming Fuze, and the response I got was "Probably, but don't hold your breath..."

Seems their store just received a shipment of 300 (!) Tilts with the latest version of Windows Mobile (6.1 - ?), so they are not expecting anything else in that line "soon."

That's different from the story I'm hearing over on the xda developers' board. People there are saying that AT&T store employees are away being trained on the Fuze as we speak, that managers are already carrying them, that phones are being shipped to stores next Monday (to arrive Tuesday or Wednesday), etc. Apparently (with a screen shot to "prove" it) the Fuze is already in the Radio Shack POS system at a price of $549.99, $349.99 with a two-year contract (although there's no stock yet, of course). All the signs being reported there are consistent with the idea of a launch within a couple of weeks or so.

[azhiker]

Wow, we want what we want when we want it, and to get it at a price we want, while the companies are already offering so many choices (albeit some poor choices) but choices none the less.

Would I consider the Touch HD if it came here? Absolutely, it would replace my Pocket PC and phone. It was the screen size and form factor I had hoped for. But the uncertain economic times would cause me to wait even if it was selling at my local AT&T store right now.

Anyway, a month ago no one knew the HD phone was even being made. Who knows what will be available next month. And frankly, I think seeng WinMo 7 will also see new phones to use it.

HTC seems to start selling their phones everywhere else but the USA, maybe they know somethng we don't. We are not the center of the phone universe!

[JesterMania]

That's different from the story I'm hearing over on the xda developers' board. People there are saying that AT&T store employees are away being trained on the Fuze as we speak, that managers are already carrying them, that phones are being shipped to stores next Monday (to arrive Tuesday or Wednesday), etc. Apparently (with a screen shot to "prove" it) the Fuze is already in the Radio Shack POS system at a price of $549.99, $349.99 with a two-year contract (although there's no stock yet, of course). All the signs being reported there are consistent with the idea of a launch within a couple of weeks or so.

$549.99 for a Fuze + $15 eBay unlock code? That's a steal! Let's see, Expansys is charging $899.00 USD or $1046.38 CAD for one. :rolleyes:

[alcedes78]

Sadly I don't think our outcrys are representational of US demand. We are probably just a noisy section of the minority with the majority not willing to pay $1,000 for a phone.

This does make one decision easier for me. I could have either gotten a flat 42-inch HD TV or the 3.8-inch Touch HD for about the same price. Looks the decision has been made for me.

[bubuschoeny]

"Unfortunately the American way is to prefer free or as cheap as possible phones which doesnt do HTC any good if they want to turn a profit on the Touch HD. The number of sales they would get from users of sites like this willing to import is small compared to the number they would attract with a carrier subsidy so catering to such a small market really isnt the best business for HTC."

I think that assumption is wrong. Look at what Nokia as been able to do with there unlocked media phones (n95, n96 etc.). I would think there is a market for high end phone like these. Maybe it's a niche market but that doesn't mean there isn't $$$ to be made.

[frankenbike]

Why? The CDMA market is just as big as GSM in the US. I don't really think there is a huge difference in the demographic makeup of either, is there?

No, I'm just saying the iPhone is pretty inexpensive with comparable features. You get slightly better res with the THD, for how much more? $500 at least?

Maybe the point of the HTC reps post was that they want to milk the Euros at premium prices, and by the time that market segment has run its course, they'll have something similar but cheaper out.

Here's it's a niche market, a smaller one, and it's not worth the effort of swinging deals and FCC approval.

The point about CDMA was that without an iPhone in its pipeline, I don't think my fellow CDMA customers would spend that kind of money in large quantities. I think $400 after subsidies is the top number or close to it at this point.


Pretty accurate statement - though 6 months per phone are all some of us seem to make it. :o


Yeah, but you know you're special ;)


The HP iPaq 910 almost gets there at 16 mm. I wouldn't consider it too thick. However, it has other issues - small screen, eats battery like a kid eats sugar, somewhat slow, can't rotate screen etc. But we are getting there!;)


I think the half inch mark is a definite demarcation. You can get all incremental, but a half inch seems like the start of what you can call "slim". But it's not. My friends Blackberries are thinner than that. Unless I'm wearing cargo pants, there's no way I could put something like my Mogul in my jeans pocket. That thing feels like a brick compared to many phones out there.

Just sayin' it's a real worthy goal to strive for.

Except Skyfire only works on QVGA devices today.

Sure, but "today" it's still in Beta. Next year it will be the product to beat. There's some user interface stuff to refine, technical issues, but it works damn good right now. High res would be next or maybe next to next. Then they can license it to HTC to package a better web experience than any phone they sell currently comes with. Or anyone else. I can get sites with Skyfire my friends can't get to work with Safari.

And it works with my memory starved Mogul.

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[Lee Yuan Sheng]

There are Blackberries thinner than 12.5mm? I'd like to see that!

It's very odd to see people paying US$500-600 for a PPC back when they were popular but yet the moment a phone is added to these devices people expect to pay less than US$200-300 for something that does even more than what the old devices did.

[JKingGrim]

Come to think of it, why is the touch HD so much more expensive than an iphone? I am not debating features or capabilities, I mean manufacturing cost wise. Does a touch HD really cost $400+ more to manufacture? What does it really have that the iphone doesnt. A bigger and higher resolutions screen.. Anything else? Windows mobile costs on the order of $10 per device. Are they just selling it so expensive because they can?

[cortez]

the conspiracy theorist in me (wants to) suggest that at&t has something to do with keeping HD off US soil. ok, so much for that thought. this is one device that i'd be willing to get as long as it had EDGE internet speed. it will still be on my list of devices to get; hopefully my "holiday football bowl winnings" will fund my "new device lust" like it did last year. the HD is the type of device that i'd keep/use for a long time. i do hope that HTC will change their mind and release a US 3G version even if it's sometime next year.

[Jason Dunn]

Come to think of it, why is the touch HD so much more expensive than an iphone? I am not debating features or capabilities, I mean manufacturing cost wise. Does a touch HD really cost $400+ more to manufacture?

I've often wondered the same thing myself - I sometimes wonder if HTC is soaking up massive profit margins, being both the ODM and brand rolled into one. It may be though that Apple, with the number of iPhones they're selling, is able to get much better deals on components than HTC, and thus have a lower cost. But even that doesn't make much sense given the overall number of phones that HTC moves every year...:confused:

[whydidnt]

Maybe the point of the HTC reps post was that they want to milk the Euros at premium prices, and by the time that market segment has run its course, they'll have something similar but cheaper out.

Here's it's a niche market, a smaller one, and it's not worth the effort of swinging deals and FCC approval.

The point about CDMA was that without an iPhone in its pipeline, I don't think my fellow CDMA customers would spend that kind of money in large quantities. I think $400 after subsidies is the top number or close to it at this point.


I don't agree - the iPhone is widely available in cheap, subsidized manner in Europe already, and HTC has no issue charging their premium (or dropping the price). If they intend to compete with the iPhone they have to compete just as hard in Europe as they will in the US. I think the bigger issue may be ATT telling them NOT to compete with their money-maker, and HTC prefers not to fight with one of their largest customers.



I think the half inch mark is a definite demarcation. You can get all incremental, but a half inch seems like the start of what you can call "slim". But it's not.

Well, having pocketed the 910, the Tytn and the Tilt, I can tell you there is a significant difference between the iPaq and the others. In my pocket the difference between it and my iPhone are negligble. I don't wear cargo pants, just dress slacks, dockers or jeans and the iPaq isn't a nuisance, but too each thier own here.


Sure, but "today" it's still in Beta. Next year it will be the product to beat.

But next year we'll probably see improvements in Opera & Safari as well as perhaps a usable version of Mobile Firefox, rendering the point moot. A web based solution will never be a true alternative for those of us that rely on a secure browsing experience. I was one of the very early beta testers for Skyfire and have been continually disapointed in the overall experience, compared to both Opera 9.5 and Safari. Yes, I can get Flash (not a huge deal to me), but otherwise I don't find it near as easy to use. I still don't understand what Skyfire's business model is. How can they make money? Running those servers has to be a signficant expense, not to mention developing the software, etc. Are they going to charge for the service? If so, how much?

[Jason Dunn]

I still don't understand what Skyfire's business model is. How can they make money? Running those servers has to be a signficant expense, not to mention developing the software, etc. Are they going to charge for the service? If so, how much?

I've wondered the same thing myself...I just don't see much, if any, of a demand for proxied browsing if it costs the consumer money.

[Pony99CA]

I've often wondered the same thing myself - I sometimes wonder if HTC is soaking up massive profit margins, being both the ODM and brand rolled into one. It may be though that Apple, with the number of iPhones they're selling, is able to get much better deals on components than HTC, and thus have a lower cost. But even that doesn't make much sense given the overall number of phones that HTC moves every year...:confused:
And it's not like HTC doesn't release "high end" phones in the U.S. I think the Touch Diamiond is still considered high end, and it's available here (quite a bit after being released in Europe). The same will be true of the Touch Pro.

And what about the Palm Treo Pro, which is built by HTC?

They know there's a demand....

Steve

[Pony99CA]

I've wondered the same thing myself...I just don't see much, if any, of a demand for proxied browsing if it costs the consumer money.
I assume they'll either sell advertising or your browsing history (which, if I recall, their TOS allows).

And there certainly is (or was) some demand for paid proxied browsing. Remember Janak and Bitstream Thunderhawk? :)

Steve

[frankenbike]

I'm guessing Skyfire's model will be a subscription fee.

Without Flash, I find any browser useless. 90% of my web browsing is on Flash sites.

But I'd say Skyfire would need to address the web security issues and intranet functioning before it could become a commercial product.

I do think that Safari uses server based pre-rendering like Skyfire though.

As far as I'm concerned, Skyfire is beta, and substantial improvements are expected before it goes commercial by whatever model it expects to.

What I don't like is the drain on the battery. They really need to fix that, probably by getting rid of the "always connected" technique they're using and move to a more demand oriented system.

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[Pony99CA]

Without Flash, I find any browser useless. 90% of my web browsing is on Flash sites.
Really? What sites? And is Flash required to get use out them (like YouTube) or just a nice (or annoying) extra (like ESPN)?

Personally, most of my browsing could be done without Flash (and probably a lot without graphics). The only useful thing Flash provides is an occasional video, which I couldn't see on my Q9m until I installed Skyfire (I didn't try one of the kludged up packages). And it's not like I'd be upset if Flash didn't work at all.

I do think that Safari uses server based pre-rendering like Skyfire though.
Why do you think that? I've never heard that claim. As far as I know, it's just a Webkit-based browser with a fast processor backing it up.

Steve

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

I've often wondered the same thing myself - I sometimes wonder if HTC is soaking up massive profit margins, being both the ODM and brand rolled into one. It may be though that Apple, with the number of iPhones they're selling, is able to get much better deals on components than HTC, and thus have a lower cost. But even that doesn't make much sense given the overall number of phones that HTC moves every year...:confused:

You don't really know the price of the Touch HD yet. The current price is from Italy, and as we all know, Europe pricing sucks.

Don't forget, an unlocked 16gb iPhone is about US$800 in HK (and HK has cheap electronics) and about US$700 for the 8gb. It's not that cheap either. In fact it's about as expensive as the Touch Pro.

[JKingGrim]

As far as flash in browsing, Opera 9.5 and Flashlite 3.1 make an awesome combo. I can even watch youtube directly in the browser with my Tilt at reasonable quality/framerate (and the tilt is by no means among the most powerful devices anymore; cant wait to try this on an xperia). Sure skyfire probably renders flash faster, but I am not dependent on a proxy. Kinda the same appeal MS exchange has over BB. When Black Berry servers go down, all BB users are SOL as far as email goes.

Back to the Touch HD. What do you guys think? It HTC pulling massive profit margins over lower volume with the THD, or does it really cost that much more to develop and manufacture?

[V-iPAQ]

How exactly can you be a US Touch HD fan if there is no Touch HD in the US?
More like 'ppl that liked pics of Touch HD' than fans.

[enavick]

Folks,

Thanks to a US reseller I was introduced to this forum tonight. So good to know i am not the only one thinking $500-$750 for an XDA like the THD is a lot of money but still will spend it :o. Given the fact I can purchase today the THD for $850 (not EURO !) I guess the real cost of it is in the $300 range in mass production. I guess HTC is milking it as much as they can before they will drop the price a bit, but unfortunaetly look around. Unlocked phones did not drop prices by much the last year...

Would i pay $850 for the THD? As stated - yes, if it gives me what I already have. 3G network, and applications to support WVGA. Streching a VGA and sidtorting pics, or having unused areas on the screen while getting a small picture are not quite appealing to me. The rest is big time.

I will keep my HTC P3600 for few more months, them make a decision. I don't like what AT&T offers right now. Small screen and thick phone (keyboard or not) isn't my cup of tea. My P3600 is a little bit over the 1/2 inch, and still fits in a pocket. Iphone? very nice toy. My 14 years old daugther loves it. Not for me !