Zune Experience Coming to Windows Mobile

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.cio.co.uk/concern/infrastructurerefresh/news/index.cfm?articleid=3208&pagtype=allchantopdate' target='_blank'>http://www.cio.co.uk/concern/infras...=allchantopdate</a><br /><br /></div><p><em>"<strong>CIO:</strong> Why has Microsoft developed Zune?</em></p><p><em><strong>Ballmer:</strong> At the end of the day, one of the big trends is that all content is going digital. And if we don't have the software and services that are useful, helpful and valuable for the consumption of music and video, we are sort of not really a player. Now, we built the Zune hardware with the Zune software - and what you'll see more and more over time is that the Zune software will also be ported to and be more important not just with the hardware but on the PC, on Windows Mobile devices, etc."</em></p><p><img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com/resizer/thumbs/size/600/dht/auto/1222982295.usr1.jpg" /></p><p>What can I say other than <em>IT'S ABOUT FREAKING TIME</em>. I feel like I've told this story 1000 times by now, but here it is again: about four years ago I was at a Mobius or MVP event (I can't remember which) and a Microsoft person came up to me and asked me if I thought they should scrap Windows Media Player Mobile on the device and instead implement the Portable Media Center interface as the way end users would access their photos, videos, and music. I said "Yes, absolutely" before he was even finished talking. The first generation PMC hardware might have been pretty suck-tacular, but the UI was easy to use. The Zune is an evolution of that UI, and while the Zune still needs improvement on a number of levels, the Zune UI is very easy to use - easier to use an an iPod in my opinion. If Microsoft really cared about the consumer market, they would have implemented that media UI years ago and we'd be having a different discussion today. They didn't because they're focused on the enterprise market first and foremost, but that's slowly (oh so slowly) changing.</p><p>Putting the Zune software onto Windows Mobile gives Microsoft a bunch of advantages: first, it lets them stop developing Windows Media Player Mobile, a piece of software that has sadly languished for years, hardly getting any updates or improvements. Secondly, it gives end users a great UI for media consumption, and assuming they go all the way with this, it gives users a media management solution (the Zune desktop software) that enables them to easily manage music and podcasts, and somewhat more easily manage photos and videos.</p><p>I see this as a win-win all around if implemented properly. I can't see a single down-side to this - what do you think about it?</p>

[David Tucker]

I think I would not complain about this at all :)

[Sven Johannsen]

I see this as a win-win all around if implemented properly. I can't see a single down-side to this - what do you think about it?

Depends on whether the sync solution is ported from the Zune to WM or from WM to the Zune.

[Jason Dunn]

Depends on whether the sync solution is ported from the Zune to WM or from WM to the Zune.

This is just a guess, but the Zune team defends their brand and turf pretty strongly - they couldn't get off the Windows Media Player codebase fast enough - so I think it would be a Zune trickled down to WM type thing...which is good, because I rarely have any trouble synching my Zune. :D

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

So does it mean anything for us outside North America? :P

[onlydarksets]

This could be compelling - if they get the interface right, I'd consider going back to WM. Of course, the Touch HD would be a good combo with the Zune interface...

[inteller]

hey maybe now zune can get some ****ing UNICODE support because I can hack code pages onto WinMo a lot easier than the current crop of Zune devices.

[Cattle-Dog]

I would be very disappointed if they only took advantage of the zune UI for media management. I think it should be freshened up and modified to run the UI for the whole phone. It's hard Microsoft, I know (not really), but phones don't need a Start Button! :)

[cab124]

It's hard Microsoft, I know (not really), but phones don't need a Start Button! :)

Does it bother anyone else, or just me, that Windows Mobile is being referred to with increasing frequency as a "phone" OS?

I tend to think of my mobile device as a pocket computer that has phone functionality. But over the past couple of months, I have really noticed that people seem to be moving away from the concept of a pocket-sized computer, to something that is primarily a phone, with a phone operating system.

Windows Mobile has a "Start" button because it was initially designed to be a pocket computer, not just a glorified phone.

If phones do not need a "Start" button (or any such element that suggests that the device is actually a computer), do they also need need web browsers, GPS capability, Office document editing capability, third-party software capability, media players, etc.? These are functions that I typically attribute to computers, not phones.

I am not able to put my finger on it, but for some reason there is something about this that really bothers me. Maybe its that I feel like our phone/text-crazed culture is imposing its way of thinking on the concept that I have really grown to appreciate over the past several years - the computer that fits in your pocket.

It could be that we are just evolving the term "phone" to refer to much more than it ever has in the past. At the same time, I have a tough time imagining myself referring to my Touch HD (if I ever get my hand on one) as my "phone." Its really a pocket PC, and I'm glad it has a "Start" button (or some form of computer-oriented UI element).

[Cattle-Dog]

I respectfully disagree. I think a phone of the caliber of Windows mobile phone, should not have to dig through menu's to find needed applications or information. I don't think this user experience is synonymous with GPS or web browsing. The start button is a great way to manage hundreds of applications and 100's of GB's of information and optimized for a mouse interface. I don't think it is the best way to organize a user interface for a small screen (even for the Touch HD relative to a desktop) device that (should) specializes in keeping you most import information and applications as easy to get to as possible.

In short, I don't think you have to sacrifice flexibility as a mobile computing system at all while modernizing and specializing the UI for a small phone based device. Short of the home screen, even 6.1 is essentially the same UI that was on my HP 300LX.

[benjimen]

... Does it bother just me that Windows Mobile is being referred to with increasing frequency as a "phone" OS? ...
It escapes me how something like this could actually bother you... but... whatever...

I think the Zune-port is great. I don't have a Zune, but I recently installed the desktop client to take a look -- very impressive. While it didn't make me want to buy a Zune (I use my WM phone as a media player) it did make me wish I needed it with my WM phone-os based device. The look of it is much sleeker than iTunes; I was actually surprised it came out of Microsoft.

WMP on my Vista system isn't bad, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved -- though there haven't been updates to it in quite a while. While WMP looks OK, the Zune desktop client is much nicer, just doesn't play all the file formats as WMP, or sync with my WM phone. :D

[Stinger]

Nice to see a bit of synergy at last. :)

[efjay]

At the slow pace MS usually works at, can we really expect to see this during the lifetime of current devices? I'm not sure this is something to get excited about just yet, Balmer seemed to meniton it more as a future concept MS were considering not as something that is going to be implemented anytime soon. Remember we are still waiting for PIE 6, how long has that been in the works?

[Craig Horlacher]

For me would be efficiency of the player. If they can't come up with a video player that is as good as TCPMP/CorePlayer/BetaPlayer then why bother. That's my feeling.

WMP on Window Mobile is so ridiculously inefficient it somehow eats CPU when it's idle in the background. You'd think it would be good for video playback since it uses so many resources but it's not.

Before they make a pretty interface I just want a player that plays video well, supports the built in hardware (like my nvidea goforce 5500).

I just think they need to work on the core to make the player usable first. What good is an sick hot interface if it can't play media well.

[benjimen]

I could easily be wrong, but I suspect it'll be available on WM7 devices and beyond. If the 'life of a current device' includes a WM7 update, then yes...

At the slow pace MS usually works at, can we really expect to see this during the lifetime of current devices? I'm not sure this is something to get excited about just yet, Balmer seemed to meniton it more as a future concept MS were considering not as something that is going to be implemented anytime soon. Remember we are still waiting for PIE 6, how long has that been in the works?

[juttonn]

The reason (or one of the reasons) that MS has not pushed this through before is that they hope that consumers purchase both a Windows mobile device and a Zune. I have used my Windows Mobile devices as my only media player for over 5 years. I did purchase the 2nd gen 80 GB zune 9 months ago at target and tried it out. I ended up returning it because I didn't want to carry an extra device and I actually enjoyed the media experience better with Pocket Player for audio and The Core Player for video.

That said, I think this is a good move and I think the only way for MS to move up on Apple in the portable media department (not to mention gaining market share in the phone market) is to make moves like this that give the consumer greater choice, flexibility, and value. Too often companies try to leverage current customers to purchase more, rather than give added value to what they have already purchased. You can more easily afford the former when you are dominate, but need to pursue the latter to significantly grow your market share.

[Jason Dunn]

I would be very disappointed if they only took advantage of the zune UI for media management. I think it should be freshened up and modified to run the UI for the whole phone.

I'm not so sure about that - the Zune user interface is great for media, but it's not a touch-based interface, and it's not designed for rich applications like contacts and calendars. I agree Windows Mobile as a whole needs a UI overhaul, but I'm not sure if the Zune interface is the best way to go overall...

[Rocco Augusto]

Woohoo! Now I won't have to carry my Zune and my Windows Mobile device around with me. Well... you know... once its released into the wild. :)

[Pony99CA]

For those of us who have never seen a Zune in action, can you give us a list of reasons (maybe with screen shots) why you think this is a good idea?

I have no problems with the current Media Player UI, so I don't know what the fuss is about.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

It escapes me how something like this could actually bother you...
Because calling something as powerful as Windows Mobile a "phone OS" slights the system. It would be equivalent to saying "Nice jalopy" to somebody driving a Ferrari.

Steve

[onlydarksets]

For those of us who have never seen a Zune in action, can you give us a list of reasons (maybe with screen shots) why you think this is a good idea?

I have no problems with the current Media Player UI, so I don't know what the fuss is about.

Steve
Here's a few things:


Full screen album art
Song information you can actually read
Fluid menus
Better video support (I'm assuming this would include video)

[Jason Dunn]

I have no problems with the current Media Player UI, so I don't know what the fuss is about.

Wow...really? I don't even know where to begin. First, I'd suggest that you see how easy it is to add new music to your device, have WMP Mobile find it, and you play it - all without using your stylus. Then compare that process to pretty much any MP3 player on the market and you'll quickly see that WMP Mobile leaves much to be desired...

[onlydarksets]

Wow...really? I don't even know where to begin. First, I'd suggest that you see how easy it is to add new music to your device, have WMP Mobile find it, and you play it - all without using your stylus. Then compare that process to pretty much any MP3 player on the market and you'll quickly see that WMP Mobile leaves much to be desired...

I've never had a problem with adding new music to my device, other than the atrociously slow USB 1.1 connection (which, of course, Zune on WM won't solve). Other than that, I agree for WM Pro.

However, Pony has a Q9 I believe, which is a better experience than WM Pro.

[Jason Dunn]

Does it bother anyone else, or just me, that Windows Mobile is being referred to with increasing frequency as a "phone" OS?

Non-phone based devices - strictly Windows Mobile PDAs - are a dying breed. They hit their market share peak a few years ago, and it's been downhill ever since. There are certainly a lot of people that like non-phone PDAs, and there's nothing wrong with that, but they're in a small minority compared to the rest of the buying public and as such, Windows Mobile is all about being a great phone.

[Pony99CA]

I respectfully disagree. I think a phone of the caliber of Windows mobile phone, should not have to dig through menu's to find needed applications or information.
You don't have to "dig" through menus to launch programs or find information in Windows Mobile. On the touch version, you use one menu (two if you count the Programs folder as a menu).

Have you looked at a lot of feature phones? You select what category of stuff you want to use, then use a Menu key to get more specific! They are very menu-driven.

The start button is a great way to manage hundreds of applications and 100's of GB's of information and optimized for a mouse interface.
I disagree. I always thought the Start menu was kind of a kludge. I thought OS/2 was much better. The Start menu is actually quite horrible managing hundreds of applications. Have you seen menus with so many items that they take more than one column? Yuck. (I arrange my programs into logical categorized folders to keep the Start menu smaller.)

The Start menu also has nothing to do with managing "hundreds of GBs of information". Files are managed by Windows Explorer, and the only relation it has to the Start menu is that there's an icon to launch it there.

Finally, remember that the Start menu debuted in Windows 95. Did anybody even have hundreds of GBs then? ;)

That said, given that's how Windows 95/98/2000/ME/XP worked, it makes sense for Windows Mobile to behave similarly.

I don't think it is the best way to organize a user interface for a small screen (even for the Touch HD relative to a desktop) device that (should) specializes in keeping you most import information and applications as easy to get to as possible.
The Start menu is meant to give you access to all of your information. The Today screen (or Home screen on the Smartphone) is meant to make accessing your important stuff easier.

Also, if you don't like the menu part of it, check out the Smartphone OS. The Start menu is just the left softkey on the Home screen, and just takes you to your list of programs (like tapping Start and Programs on the Pocket PC), with a couple of minor differences (you can have some favorite programs listed first, and Settings appears in the list).

In short, I don't think you have to sacrifice flexibility as a mobile computing system at all while modernizing and specializing the UI for a small phone based device. Short of the home screen, even 6.1 is essentially the same UI that was on my HP 300LX.
That's actually the beauty of it. It works (sort of) like your PC and provides a sense of consistency and familiarity (which are good things). For a good defense of the Start menu, see Why We Love the Windows Mobile Start Menu (http://discuss.pocketnow.com/showthread.php?threadid=23438).

By the way, in case you don't know the history of Windows CE/Pocket PC OS/Windows Mobile, the original Windows CE Handheld PCs looked much more like your desktop PC (Start button in the lower left, task bar at the bottom, system tray in the lower right, menu bar at the top, desktop with icons, etc.). It was very nice and very familiar. (Microsoft even called these "PC Companions", because they were intended to sync with your PC, not generally be used as stand-alone devices.)

When Microsoft created the Palm-Size PC, they kept that similar interface and added the virtual keyboard. This and the switch from landscape to portrait displays made the task bar very crowded. I don't know of many people who liked that user interface.

So, when the Pocket PC UI was being designed, Microsoft did change things to make it work better on smaller screens. Didn't you ever wonder why the Start menu is now at the top left and much smaller, or why the menu bar got moved to the bottom? ;)

Steve

[Pony99CA]

Wow...really? I don't even know where to begin. First, I'd suggest that you see how easy it is to add new music to your device, have WMP Mobile find it, and you play it - all without using your stylus. Then compare that process to pretty much any MP3 player on the market and you'll quickly see that WMP Mobile leaves much to be desired...
As darkassets mentioned, I primarily use my Q9m now, so I never use a stylus. :) However, I also have an iPAQ hx2790, so here's what I do to add music.


I take my memory card out of the device and put it in my PC.
I copy new albums that I've ripped (the folders in Windows) to the appropriate folder on the memory card.
I launch WMP, sort by artist, find the new album and play it. (I may have to update the library, too, but I don't remember.)

Yes, on the iPAQ, I do have to use the stylus (or a fingernail), but I don't view that as a big deal. It's a stylus-based interface, so I deal with it. If non-phone Pocket PCs had softkey buttons, I might not have to use the stylus at all (assuming I have mapped the buttons in WMP to hardware buttons).

Steve

[onlydarksets]

The dislike of WMP on the desktop is confusing to me - what is it that people don't like? I always used it to manage the music on my phone, and it worked very well. It was a must for DRM music, of course, but I found I used it for syncing all my music.

[Pony99CA]

Thanks for the list, darkassets. Without having seen a Zune still, here's my evaluation of those features:


Full screen album art -- Nice, but not really a big deal (to me). I'd think WMP could be tweaked to do it, too.
Song information you can actually read -- Very nice, but again I think WMP could be tweaked to allow larger fonts.
Fluid menus -- I'm not sure what this means, but it sounds like UI sugar.
Better video support (I'm assuming this would include video) -- This is a biggie, of course, but if WMP supported user codecs, wouldn't that be sufficient? Or is there something more I'm missing?

Steve

[Cattle-Dog]

I currently have a Q9H myself, with 6.1 on it. It is a step in the right direction and I think its one of the best MS based phones available.

That said, I still think the UI has been long neglected (even more than mobile media player?) and I don't think it is because they nailed it the first time. I think it is a product of what they knew and trying to develop a mobile computing market and it was sufficient for the times. Now, 12 years later, a lot of it's (mobile platform) focus has changed, the market has changed, and the hardware has changed. I think it's time for a major modernization of the overall UI.

There has been bluetooth mouse support and integrated mouse pads to try to make the UI a little more palatable in today's times. HTC has gone to great lengths to try and modernize it themselves. I think people (especially us kinda peoples, lol) are eager to purchase applications to optimize their homescreens or just hack it themselves, to try to squeeze as much onto them as possible. Why, because on the fly in a pinch, it's not the most intuitive UI to muddle through. Certainly not complicated, just not intuitive. Some items are directly off the Start menu, some are nested in other folders, some are double and triple nested! Some features are a menu option or sub menu option (many phone settings are sub sub sub menu options!), other features are MIA unless you add them or the phone manufacture or service provider includes them (task manager, close applications, etc).

Overall, its a great OS and the one I prefer. I just want them to keep up with the times better.

[melsam [MS]]

It's great to see people excited about this news, although keep in mind that SteveB didn't confirm nor deny a "Zune Phone". It's speculation at this point, but I totally agree with Jason - it's a win win in many ways, for Microsoft, and customers of both - Windows Mobile and the Zune Pass (subscription service).

The only "downside" I see to this is the amount of time it would take to build and integrate everything together. Hopefully that's not what's causing the delays in getting the next version of Windows Mobile out :)

-Mel
(PM, Windows Mobile)

[benjimen]

...I have no problems with the current Media Player UI, so I don't know what the fuss is about...

Great then... you're all set :D

Because calling something as powerful as Windows Mobile a "phone OS" slights the system. It would be equivalent to saying "Nice jalopy" to somebody driving a Ferrari.

If someone has an issue with the car I drive, it's their issue not mine. If I refer to my Windows Mobile device as having a 'phone OS' and someone is bothered by it, well... that's something they'll need to work through ;)

[k1darkknight]

I agree that having to get to all your programs on WM through the Start Menu is pretty silly. However, there is at least one solution. There may be others besides this program, but I'm not aware of them.
The app I'm referring to is called SPB Pocket Plus. Basically, it gives you the equivalent of your Windows PC's desktop (placing icons on your primary screen, to launch programs), on Windows Mobile. Due to the smaller screen size of pocket devices, they implemented tabs, letting you categorize your various programs, and just switch to whichever tab you need.
For example, on my Dell Axim X50v, I have a tab with a file folder plugin, a tab for my most commonly used "everyday" programs (calc, Excel, Word, Notepad, file explorer, a battery indicator, memory meter, and brightness slider), "Entertainment" (games, media player, and MS Reader), "Communications" (Wi-Fi, IE, ActiveSync, etc.), and "System" apps (numerous of WM's system setting applets, mainly).
Several of their other programs are able to be plugged in to this interface as well, such as a weather forecast plugin, showing icons for the next 5 days' worth of weather.

No, I don't work for SPB...I've just found this to be one of those "must-have" apps that. If I ever find a device that has all the functionality of the VGA Axim, with a VGA (or better) screen as big (or even just a hair bigger), more memory, a newer version of WM, AND phone functionality, SPB Pocket Plus would be the VERY first thing I'd install. I'm honestly so used to it, that I have a tough time remembering where to find stuff on the WM Start Menu, at times. Okay, not really, but I DO find myself having to remember to go to "Programs" on the start menu, to find where an installer put an icon...lol

[benjimen]

I agree that having to get to all your programs on WM through the Start Menu is pretty silly. However, there is at least one solution...
'At least one' is a bit of an understatement. Your solution is really just part of the problem with Windows Mobile. While the average consumer today is a lot more tech-savy than just a few years ago, they aren't looking for a device that requires research and additional purhcasing to make the UI easier to deal with. WM requires 'at least one' layer of UI enhancement product to be more practical as well as visually appealing; something the iPhone, and now the G1, achieve out-of-the-box.

[Russ Smith]

Every so often I have to explain Apple and Microsoft to people. The best explanation I've come up with is that Apple is a hardware company that writes software (some of it pretty good) to sell their hardware. Microsoft is a software company that occasionally builds hardware to sell their software. The Zune never really fit into that equation, but now, with the player being ported, it does.

I'm glad to see this as I"m one of those folks who've tried quite a few mobile media players because the built-in one just wasn't enough.

An aside about "classic" (non-phone) Pocket PCs (see CAB124 and Jason's recent comments): I've been a proponent of non-converged solutions for some time. At some points, my conviction wavers, but I remain a two-device guy. The reasons are simple: I can upgrade my WM side of things without having to buy a new phone. Likewise the phone side. My PDA screen is a 4 inch VGA resolution monster and my phone screen is a tiny 2 inches. I don't have to worry about my PDA use draining my cell-phone battery. I've even got 48MB of storage on my PDA (!).

In addition, because it's not a phone, I can actually use my PDA when I'm working (where they object to the possibility that you might be using your phone to check e-mail or browse when you should be attentive to guests.)

There are drawbacks: I have to make sure my phone supports high-speed phone-as-a-modem operation. They're linked via Bluetooth so that throttles the actual speed down a bit. Getting my PPC connected takes a few seconds longer. I can't use the RedFly, because my PDA is obviously not one of the supported phones.

So, while I agree with Jason that the non-converged PPCs hit their peak a few years ago, but, until I can find a way to get most of the plusses above on a phone, I'll stick with two devices.

[Down8]

Depends on whether the sync solution is ported from the Zune to WM or from WM to the Zune.I would not wan to have to install yet another app to sync media ot my device. Let WMP sync to whatever interface WM uses (Zune might be a refreshing change), but don't force another app on us.

-bZj

[Pony99CA]

Great then... you're all set :D
True, except I want to know how the Zune interface might be better. Just because I'm OK with the status quo doesn't mean that I'd ignore something better. I just need to be convinced that it is better.

If someone has an issue with the car I drive, it's their issue not mine. If I refer to my Windows Mobile device as having a 'phone OS' and someone is bothered by it, well... that's something they'll need to work through ;)
You missed the point. It's not about what you call your stuff, it's about what other people call your stuff. If you called somebody's Ferrari a "jalopy", don't you think they might get upset? Or, a bit more personally, if somebody calls himself a "dumb sucker", that's cool, but would you really be surprised if he got upset if you called him that?

Besides, you more or less asked why it would upset somebody. I explained that. Saying that's not how you would react is rather irrelevant.

The fact is that Windows Mobile is a lot more than a "phone OS"; it's a PDA OS that includes phone functions. If anybody bought a Windows Mobile phone and didn't use it as anything other than a phone, I'd wonder why they bought it.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

'At least one' is a bit of an understatement. Your solution is really just part of the problem with Windows Mobile. While the average consumer today is a lot more tech-savy than just a few years ago, they aren't looking for a device that requires research and additional purhcasing to make the UI easier to deal with. WM requires 'at least one' layer of UI enhancement product to be more practical as well as visually appealing; something the iPhone, and now the G1, achieve out-of-the-box.
I disagree that it needs anything to be more practical. How hard is it to use the Start menu and click Programs to see your list of programs -- especially when that's what you do on your PC (assuming you have Windows)?

Yes, WM isn't the most visually appealing OS, but that doesn't bother me. I'll leave the pretty sugar to those form-over-function people.

Steve

[benjimen]

Um... you're the one who said you were fine with it, and couldn't see what all the fuss was about -- now that's apparently not the case... From your posts though, in general, you seem to just enjoy disagreeing -- nothing wrong with that, just a pattern. Still feel that 2.5mm headphone jacks are the standard...? :D

True, except I want to know how the Zune interface might be better

[Pony99CA]

Um... you're the one who said you were fine with it, and couldn't see what all the fuss was about -- now that's apparently not the case...
I don't have any complaints with the Windows Media Player UI. However, as I said, I don't know the Zune interface and want to understand why people think it's better. Those aren't contradictory statements, as much as you might want to spin them as such. Maybe you think it's odd that people might be interested in learning about better things, even if their current solution works fine; I think it's normal.

Anyway, why bother making more replies to my question that don't answer it? If you know the Zune, tell me what you like about it better than Windows Media Player. If you don't know the Zune, let it go.

Still feel that 2.5mm headphone jacks are the standard...? :D
On cell phones? Yes. As far as I recall, every cell phone that I've owned has had a 2.5 mm jack.

But why don't you take a few months and look at all 4000+ posts I've made and dig up some more that you can bring up that are completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. :rolleyes:

Steve