Bored With Windows Mobile Device Center, Microsoft Provides Sync Solution For Other Devices

[Ed Hansberry]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://specials.msn.co.in/sp08/msphonedatamanager/willmy_phone.asp' target='_blank'>http://specials.msn.co.in/sp08/msph...illmy_phone.asp</a><br /><br /></div><p><em>"Microsoft just released the first beta version of its Phone Data Manager application which looks like a serious alternative for some of the Nokia PC Suite features as it support wider range of mobile devices including most of the Nokia S60 2nd and 3rd edition phones."</em><br /><br /><img src="http://www.ehansberry.com/ppct/2008/20080929-microsoftphonedatamanager.jpg" border="0" /><br /><br /><strong><em>REALLY</em></strong> Microsoft? This is what you are spending your time on? Would it be <em>too</em> much to ask to fix ActiveSync 4.x and Windows Mobile Device Center first? <img src="http://www.ehansberry.com/ppct/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /></p>

[martin_ayton]

I'm somewhat upset by this... but what really upsets me about it is how the device in the screenshot is shown to be connected: Bluetooth. By dint of replacing the MS BT stack on my laptop with a BlueSoleil stack I have, in the past, managed to get a reasonably reliable ActiveSync connection over BT. Now I have a new laptop with a Toshiba BT stack and despite days of frustration, tech. support, going through online forums with a microscope, I have never managed to get ActiveSync to connect to my Vario3 via BT.

So, way to go Microsoft: Annoy me that you care more about Nokia users than you do about those of us who have purchased your own Windows Mobile devices, and then go and rub my face in it by giving those Nokia users features that flat do not work on your own products.

You know, I don't buy the whole 'company as cause' schtick, but companies that think that their existing customers need no further effort or care rapidly lose their access to the contents of my wallet.:mad:

I need a coffee...

[nGage]

Looks like "Plan B" is out of the bag now. Just waiting for the announcement that turns it into "Plan A".

[benjimen]

Wow -- you're right, how could they be spending time on these devices when I want to throw mine out the window every time WMDC acts schitzo. IMO, WMDC is a sales tool for the iPhone.

I've pre-ordered my T-Mobile Android G1 -- bored and frustrated with WM, am looking forward to something that just works (hopefully).

On another note, just finished moving all my personal stuff over from a Hosted Exchange service to Google Apps and have become rather hooked. The email is tailored to those like me who somehow pile up a couple hundred messages in their inbox. The calendar, once you get the hang of it, is amazing -- especially when you discover public-calendars.

Could be wrong, but I've a feeling over the next couple years, WM will experience a dramatic loss of market share -- to many other toys out there :)

[efjay]

Question for all the MVP's that contribute to this site - does MS listen to you guys at all? Do they have anyone actually listening to feedback from fans and critics or are they just winging it out in Redmond? I am a WM fan but Microsoft really, really seems like they need someone to step up and slap them into actually doing some WM related work for a change.

[hvelez]

My Wife is getting a Blackberry and I so jealous. She gets Windows Live, Live Search, Live Messenger!!! (We don't get that, at least Verizon Customers). I am stuck with my SMT 5800!! Windows Mobile. I am out!!! as soon my contract is over!!! I am getting another phone!! We get no support!!

Sorry I needed to vent,

[stevew]

WMDC is a sales tool for the iPhone.



You are exactly right. WMDC is what finally made me say I've had enough, and I now use an iPhone until MS and WM get there act together. In which case I'm not holding my breathe. :rolleyes:

[Ed Hansberry]

Question for all the MVP's that contribute to this site - does MS listen to you guys at all? Do they have anyone actually listening to feedback from fans and critics or are they just winging it out in Redmond? I am a WM fan but Microsoft really, really seems like they need someone to step up and slap them into actually doing some WM related work for a change.
They listen.

However, I am still confounded as to how "WILL YOU PLEASE FIX WINDOWS MOBILE DEVICE CENTER" was heard as "Yes, WMDC is quite pleasant to use, thank you. Please, do work on another sync tool for other platforms." :confused:

By the way, this looks like MSN/Windows Live is doing this, not the Windows Mobile team. It still boggles my mind though that MS allows resources to be dedicated like this when an existing tool for a key product just isn't up to snuff.

[Rocco Augusto]

I'm going to probably get a lot of heat for this, but I think this is a great idea! The Live team takes existing products and makes them better (at least from the programs I played with) and it just makes sense to have a program that could sync your information, pictures, videos, etc with devices that are not Windows Mobile devices. Sure the application is in Beta now and doesn't appear to work with Windows Mobile devices but hopefully this will change by the time of release.

We all have annoyances with WMDC and the like and now Microsoft has put a skilled team on fixing those problems and making them better as well as expanding the feature set to include the 'Duh!' factor, like letting you sync regular phones with it as well as syncing over Bluetooth. :)

[JesterMania]

But I don't see how this can be considered an alternative to Nokia PC Suite. I'm currently using PC Suite for my Nokia N95 and I have to say that the Sync feature is very fast, reliable, and just works. I had boatloads of issues with ActiveSync/WMDC and my iPAQ hx2790 prior, and this is supposedly a business device?

For starters, you can control and restrict in PC Suite which direction to sync (unlike ActiveSync which forces sync both ways). Secondly, with the reputation ActiveSync and WMDC has, I wouldn't trust Microsoft's solution over Nokia's - not until they fix AS/WMDC. If PC Suite flawlessly works, why should anyone change? The only plus I see is that it can sync with Windows Live Contacts, but I use GMail instead :D.

[Janak Parekh]

But I don't see how this can be considered an alternative to Nokia PC Suite. I'm currently using PC Suite for my Nokia N95 and I have to say that the Sync feature is very fast, reliable, and just works. I had boatloads of issues with ActiveSync/WMDC and my iPAQ hx2790 prior, and this is supposedly a business device? The truth is, Microsoft doesn't care about ActiveSync or WMDC, although they'll never say it. For them, they see the future as Exchange sync (which is far more reliable than ActiveSync), and the largest business customers presumably use that.

--janak

[captgoodhope]

They may intend for us to use the WM Live Mesh client for syncing when it comes out. That would be interesting.

[Pony99CA]

Microsoft? This is what you are spending your time on? Would it be <em>too</em> much to ask to fix ActiveSync 4.x and Windows Mobile Device Center first? <img src="http://www.ehansberry.com/ppct/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />
Agreed! Look at my ActiveSync New Year's Resolutions (http://thoughts.svpocketpc.com#THOUGHT_ACTIVESYNC_RESOLUTIONS) that I wrote back in early 2004. How many of those have been addressed in ActiveSync or WMDC almost five years later?

Now look at what's been removed -- LAN/WiFi syncing, category syncing, backup/restore, case-by-case conflict resolution and probably more.

Good job, Micorsoft. :rolleyes:

Steve

[Pony99CA]

The truth is, Microsoft doesn't care about ActiveSync or WMDC, although they'll never say it. For them, they see the future as Exchange sync (which is far more reliable than ActiveSync), and the largest business customers presumably use that.
I've got a "syncing" feeling (sorry) that you're right. However, if they really want to make WM more consumer-friendly, they need to keep PC syncing as an option. Syncing to an Exchange server won't cut it, even if it's free, because you can't synchronize files there. So programs like eWallet would be a lot less useful.

I suppose Microsoft could have some cloud (I hate that term) syncing (like Live Mesh?), but what if I don't have Internet access? Nope, I still want to be able to sync with my own PC.

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

I've got a "syncing" feeling (sorry) that you're right. However, if they really want to make WM more consumer-friendly, they need to keep PC syncing as an option. Who says they want to make WM more consumer-friendly? We do, for sure, but Microsoft doesn't seem to pay much attention to it. The consumer applets built into Pocket PC have stagnated at best as of late. I know you find WMP adequate, but it is a far cry from what other platforms now support, and really has not improved featurewise for a long time (and WMP sync is buggy). Reader is basically ignored now, etc.

Syncing to an Exchange server won't cut it, even if it's free, because you can't synchronize files there. So programs like eWallet would be a lot less useful. Well... notice that Microsoft never really got around to adding file sync for Smartphones. ;) (At least, as of WM5. I haven't tried recently, but would be surprised if it was otherwise.) Who knows if Microsoft will continue supporting it in the future...

I suppose Microsoft could have some cloud (I hate that term) syncing (like Live Mesh?), but what if I don't have Internet access? Nope, I still want to be able to sync with my own PC. We'll see how much longer that model lasts, though. Apple does have MobileMe (albeit not free), and Google is planning to use exclusively online syncing for the G1.

--janak

[Russ Smith]

I'm one of those statistical anomalies; a person who's had no problems with ActiveSync and now WMDC at all. To really make things hard on WMDC, I switched to Thunderbird and Sunbird using BirdieSync along with WMDC. It still works flawlessly. ...makes me wonder what I'm doing right.

My wife, however, has had all manner of difficulties: Sometimes it will sync the "wrong way" and remove some carefully taken notes or changes to items. Sometimes it won't synch at all. Other times it will stop with errors (which produces my main complaint with AS/WMDC: Why is it so hard to figure out what exactly prevented the sync? Why can't we get the exact offending item with a note saying exactly what's "wrong.")

In order to try to solve her issues, I investigated various alternatives to AS and every one of them was worse than the original. Some wouldn't sync everything that AS does. Others crashed regularly. Some wouldn't even run once. I went back to AS because it was still better than the alternatives for synching with Windows Mobile.

So what about alternatives to Windows Mobile? I've experimented with those too. Linux has some pretty good GUIs, but other software needs to be recompiled for ARM and for the smaller screen. The iPhone has some really nice features and a lot of decent apps, but I really don't like the lack of cut-and-paste, the lack of a data card slot, and the fact that apps aren't local (so you have to be connected to use them). In both cases, I can't find anything that compares to the functionality of Pocket Informant.

[Janak Parekh]

The iPhone has some really nice features and a lot of decent apps, but I really don't like the lack of cut-and-paste, the lack of a data card slot, and the fact that apps aren't local (so you have to be connected to use them). The first two are definitely true, but the third? Apps most definitely are stored locally, and you do not need to be connected to use them.

In both cases, I can't find anything that compares to the functionality of Pocket Informant. Pocket Informant is coming to the iPhone, but with a huge caveat: the iPhone's calendar data store isn't API-accessible, so PI is implementing their own calendar data store and a corresponding separate sync. :(

--janak

[benjimen]

...Pocket Informant is coming to the iPhone, but with a huge caveat: the iPhone's calendar data store isn't API-accessible, so PI is implementing their own calendar data store and a corresponding separate sync...
Can't help but wonder if Pocket Informant will make it to the apps store, or will they nix it as it 'duplicates existing functionality'...?

[Jason Dunn]

Question for all the MVP's that contribute to this site - does MS listen to you guys at all? Do they have anyone actually listening to feedback from fans and critics or are they just winging it out in Redmond?

We try really, really hard to advocate for the users, and there's really no shortage of things that we bring up that need improving. The problem is that we don't seem to be able to get through to them...at least, not in any way that makes any traction. I know for a fact that some of our feedback makes its way onto feature lists, but when it comes to assigning resources, and there's never enough, so guess which features tend to get cut? The features that the product manager didn't think of himself. :( I'm generalizing to some degree of course, but I've been watching Microsoft in this space for 11 years now, so I've definitely noticed a pattern...

[Janak Parekh]

Can't help but wonder if Pocket Informant will make it to the apps store, or will they nix it as it 'duplicates existing functionality'...? Yup, always gotta worry about that. Stupid Apple. :rolleyes:

--janak

[Jason Dunn]

Can't help but wonder if Pocket Informant will make it to the apps store, or will they nix it as it 'duplicates existing functionality'...?

Yeah, I don't envy Alex, or any iPhone developer, who will put months of work into an application only to possibly have it possibly be rejected by Apple. Apple, as usual, doesn't play nice with others.

[Pony99CA]

Who says they want to make WM more consumer-friendly? We do, for sure, but Microsoft doesn't seem to pay much attention to it. The consumer applets built into Pocket PC have stagnated at best as of late. I know you find WMP adequate, but it is a far cry from what other platforms now support, and really has not improved featurewise for a long time (and WMP sync is buggy). Reader is basically ignored now, etc.
Yes, dropping Reader seemed like a bad call. Are .lit books even around now?

As for Windows Media, I'd say that I find it more like "barely adequate". It does what I need mostly (playing MP3 files), but not much else. It can't play AVI files, QuickTime, AAC, etc., which is why my biggest wish is for user codecs.

However, I think when most people talk about making Windows Mobile more consumer-friendly, they're referring to the user interface, not the applications.

Well... notice that Microsoft never really got around to adding file sync for Smartphones. ;) (At least, as of WM5. I haven't tried recently, but would be surprised if it was otherwise.)
They added it in WM 6 -- sort of. It only works with Vista and WMDC. If you're using XP and ActiveSync, tough luck, Chuck.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

Yeah, I don't envy Alex, or any iPhone developer, who will put months of work into an application only to possibly have it possibly be rejected by Apple. Apple, as usual, doesn't play nice with others.
I call Apple the ultimate control freaks. They have to control your entire experience. That works reasonably well for the things Apple plans the device to be used for, because you get a nice, consistent experience. But if you want to stray beyond what Apple intended, that model breaks down.

However, you'd think Apple would have a process to review ideas for applications, at least. That way developers could write a proposal and get a go/no-go decision up front.

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

However, you'd think Apple would have a process to review ideas for applications, at least. That way developers could write a proposal and get a go/no-go decision up front. They don't, and it's stupid and lame. Even Apple fanboys are calling Apple on this one, as it's utterly inexcusable. I would expect Apple to improve this by next year's WWDC, or face a massive outcry and protest at the time. The only thing is, there's such a potential for revenue, that I'm not sure developer response will be coordinated enough.

So, you have Apple and Microsoft at two ends of the mobile spectrum; one that's extremely consumer-focused, but control-crazy; the other seems to care less about the consumer experience at times, but has built an open developer-friendly platform. Time will tell if Android saddles the middle. ;)

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

However, I think when most people talk about making Windows Mobile more consumer-friendly, they're referring to the user interface, not the applications. I think it's both. In any case, WM has not improved their UI significantly in years. Ergo the anticipation of WM7.

They added it in WM 6 -- sort of. It only works with Vista and WMDC. If you're using XP and ActiveSync, tough luck, Chuck. Sigh. :)

--janak

[melsam [MS]]

Let me share some comments here as a Microsoft employee in the Windows Mobile team.

1. Microsoft is listening, and is aware of the problems with WMDC. Not only do I and many others regularly read these forums, we also have very active internal discussion groups where thousands of MS employees share their thoughts with the Windows Mobile team - very vocally and bluntly.

2. Please ensure you're using the latest version of WMDC (6.1) and the latest Vista patches and SP1. The updated version of WMDC fixes a lot of issues reported initially.
Download details: Microsoft Windows Mobile Device Center 6.1 for Windows Vista (32-bit) (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=46f72df1-e46a-4a5f-a791-09f07aaa1914&displaylang=en)

3. As someone correctly pointed out, this particular sync product is not from the Windows Mobile team. It's from an offshoot of a Windows Live team somewhere else in the world, and unclear to me what that team's charter or priorities are. No Windows Mobile resources are being used on this project to the best of my knowledge. That's not saying that they're wasting their time. Since Microsoft operates in so many markets, sometimes different divisions develop stuff that is relevant for specific users. In some rare cases there may be overlap with existing products, but those get ironed out over time as regional innovations get rolled into bigger products.

4. I can see why it appears our focus has shifted from desktop sync to air sync. Competing with BlackBerry has been one of our biggest priorities for the last couple of releases, which is why air sync seems to be where most of the investments have gone. However, desktop sync certainly isn't dead and there's a lot of work going on to improve it as we speak. We're working on something big and exciting involving media, entertainment and apps to compete with the iPhone. Although I can't share details on this forum, I can say that desktop sync *will* get better.

5. Granted, progress on the next version of Windows Mobile front has been slow....no arguing there. It's frustrating, even to me as a member of the team that makes this stuff. However, realize that the sheer amount of work we're trying to do in this one release is massive. There are so many new features to create, lots of legacy code to port, thousands of 3rd party apps to support, new Live services to integrate, emerging competitors to match, new technologies to adopt, all amidst shifting priorities, that it's bound to be a bit challenging. However, I'm confident that the end product will be worth the wait, and have a strong value proposition for both - business users and consumers.

I'm not sure if this directly answers any of the questions in this thread, but I just wanted to share some perspective and let folks know that we're out here and listening.

-Mel Sampat
(Program Manager in the Outlook Mobile team)
melsam [at] microsoft.com

[Rob Alexander]

Thanks, Mel, for the comments. I find myself with mixed feelings about what you've said, though. I don't know whether to be pleased that you guys do read what we say or even more irritated that you know about how bad our experiences are and do not fix it.

I think the problem I have is reflected in your email. In a couple of places you talk about some great new things you guys are working on. That's great... it really is, but the thing is that the basics are still broken and those things seem to get worse with every release.

I used to be irritated with the unreliability of Activesync under WinXP. I was pleased with the idea of the WM Device Center, since I figured you'd start over from scratch and make it all better. I never imagined that you'd start over from scratch and make it all worse! I can't believe that I have to manually start WMDC to see what is happening with my sync, and then I can't even tell what's wrong if something is wrong. I'm just supposed to guess and change things randomly until it works. WMDC 6.1 is so bad that I have given up syncing my Touch with my Vista computer at home. I just sync with my XP computer at work and leave it at that.

In fact, it's worse than that, because I make it sound like that's okay. It's not; this will only last while my employer continues not to use Vista. As soon as they switch over and WMDC is the only way to sync at work (we don't have exchange), then I'll finally have to give up on WM and move on to something else. I've been using Windows CE based products since the Velo 1 so I have a serious investment in the platform and won't give it up lightly, but what choice do I have? If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work. If you've been reading these forums, you've seen just how many former WM users have preceded me in this move so it's not just a single grumpy user.

Anyway, I've drifted. My point is this. It's all well and good to be working on shiny new features, but if you can't get the basics right, then the rest doesn't matter. Please! Spend some time just getting WMDC to work right. Make it easy to use, transparent as to what's happening and tell us what's wrong if something doesn't work so we have a chance to fix it. That's not too much to ask for.

[benjimen]

I'd say it's a safe assumption that if a user is posting in this type of forum, their software is up-to-date ;)
;692527']...
2. Please ensure you're using the latest version of WMDC (6.1) and the latest Vista patches and SP1. The updated version of WMDC fixes a lot of issues reported initially.

[Ed Hansberry]

I'd say it's a safe assumption that if a user is posting in this type of forum, their software is up-to-date ;)

Likely, but it is a fair comment - no point in complaining about broken features in an old version. ;)

[yyl]

;692527']Let me share some comments here as a Microsoft employee in the Windows Mobile team.

4. ...We're working on something big and exciting involving media, entertainment and apps to compete with the iPhone...

5. ... However, realize that the sheer amount of work we're trying to do in this one release is massive. There are so many new features to create, lots of legacy code to port, thousands of 3rd party apps to support, new Live services to integrate, ...


Um...how about releasing a version that fixes existing bugs first? This actually reflects the Microsoft mentality for the past few years: every release needs to have something really, really big. But when you are trying to introduce something really big while fixing bugs, you end up introducing more bugs and problems.

You know, some other companies (like the "fruit company") actually releases many firmware and software updates to just "fix bugs".

[Pony99CA]

Likely, but it is a fair comment - no point in complaining about broken features in an old version. ;)
True, and never overestimate the user. How many users have you seen come to forums and post what are basically obvious questions that would have been resolved by looking at the manual or doing a simple search?

In this case, it appears that WMDC 6.1 came out over a year ago, and if somebody didn't see news posts in the forum about it then, how will they know it exists? Does WMDC automatically check for updates? Does Windows Update offer to update it? (I don't know, and it's been months since I installed it, so I don't remember.)

Steve

[Ed Hansberry]

Does WMDC automatically check for updates? Does Windows Update offer to update it? (I don't know, and it's been months since I installed it, so I don't remember.)

No, and to make matters worse, as I recall it won't even be offered by WU unless your device is docked when you check for new updates.

[Pony99CA]

No, and to make matters worse, as I recall it won't even be offered by WU unless your device is docked when you check for new updates.
Seriously? That would be like not offering Windows Media updates unless you were playing music or watching video. :rolleyes:

I can understand not offering the update to people who aren't using it, but that could be based on whether you've ever created a partnership.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

You know, some other companies (like the "fruit company") actually releases many firmware and software updates to just "fix bugs".
I think some companies do that. For example, I remember getting Microsoft updates on my older iPAQs. Motorola also released 3 or 4 updates for the original Q.

They're a pain to install, because you often have to hard reset your device, but they exist.

Steve

P.S. Let's not bash the Microsoft employee who was actually trying to be helpful and give us insight into what's happening behind the scenes. We want to encourage more participation, not less. ;)

[Janak Parekh]

I think some companies do that. For example, I remember getting Microsoft updates on my older iPAQs. Motorola also released 3 or 4 updates for the original Q. It's significantly worse than it used to be, however. It's up to individual OEMs and carriers, instead of Microsoft, and many of them don't regularly release updates, if at all.

They're a pain to install, because you often have to hard reset your device, but they exist. ... unlike some other platforms, which support clean upgrades. I've never had to hard reset or reinstall my iPhone. In fact, when I got the 3G, I restored the 2G image and it worked seamlessly, and that was after about 4 upgrades on the 2G. I've since installed 3? 4? more updates on the 3G without problems.

--janak

[Pony99CA]

It's significantly worse than it used to be, however. It's up to individual OEMs and carriers, instead of Microsoft, and many of them don't regularly release updates, if at all.
I think one reason that it's gotten worse is because of convergence. Before phones were put in PDAs, it just required Microsoft and the OEM to release an update. With phones, the carrier is also involved, requiring time to test the changes to ensure that they don't affect their network.

I'm not sure how Apple managed to convince carriers to either avoid the testing or do it more quickly. I can only assume the demand for the iPhone made some carriers willing to risk it.

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

I think one reason that it's gotten worse is because of convergence. Before phones were put in PDAs, it just required Microsoft and the OEM to release an update. With phones, the carrier is also involved, requiring time to test the changes to ensure that they don't affect their network. That's only one of several reasons. Even before Pocket PC Phones were popular, HP stopped delivering regular ROM updates for their products, and Microsoft ditched the EUU update model, which allowed cross-Pocket PC upgrades, and switched to AKUs, which requires OEM integration.

I'm not sure how Apple managed to convince carriers to either avoid the testing or do it more quickly. I can only assume the demand for the iPhone made some carriers willing to risk it. How about RIM's Blackberry? You can readily get updates straight from RIM for it, I believe. The key difference is that Microsoft doesn't manufacture the hardware, and their OEM contracts have forced them into an inferior position. Time will tell if Microsoft remedies this for future WM versions, but so far it's been a disappointment, and will hurt them in the long run if they don't rectify it soon (e.g., how do vulnerabilities get patched? That's a key question for corporate deployments).

--janak