Even Critics Give Apple a Pass on iPhone 3G Woes

[Pete Paxton]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080828/ap_on_hi_te/apple_s_luster_2' target='_blank'>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080828...pple_s_luster_2</a><br /><br /></div><p><em>"Such a string of mishaps and missteps might throw another electronics company into crisis. But of course, Apple Inc. isn't just another electronics company. Even as iPhone griping rages online, it looks like Apple's sterling reputation will emerge untarnished. Baba Shiv, a professor of marketing at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, compares Apple's fan base to Harley-Davidson motorcycle riders who pass over arguably higher-quality Japanese bikes.Shiv said Apple's fans play down negative information to explain their relationship to the brand - and justify spending more for products that may not be better than the competition's. Once that loyalty is formed, "the transgression has to be so egregious for someone to completely change the narrative," Shiv said. 'If something like this had happened to Microsoft, the long-term impact would be much more for Microsoft than for Apple.'"</em></p><p>I'm just curious what you all think of this article. Apple and it's beloved iPhone have certainly had their share of mishaps lately. They've had some real problems with MobileMe, 3G, the App store, syncing, freezing, security and so on and yet it seems that no matter what they do, there's a strong loyal crowd that will defend them to the hilt. Yet when Microsoft has issues or flaws with just about anything, forums around the web seem to rip them apart. So after reading the article, do you agree that "Apple's sterling reputation will emerge untarnished?" Do you think there's a bias towards Apple sometimes? Are Apple and MS really on playing fields that are that different or is it just easier to pick on one more than the other?</p>

[martin_ayton]

It is very obvious that the Apple evangelists out there - and there are many - are very willing to give their favoured manufacturer the benefit of the doubt when they and others would not do the same for other companies. And I mean 'other companies' - it isn't just Microsoft that gets it in the neck when they get things wrong. However, before the cries of 'unfair behaviour' go up, we need to remember that all these companies can and do aim for pretty much the same people in their sales and marketing strategies. Apple has managed to create a relationship with a large number of its customers which just about everyone else (with the possible exception of Google) can only dream about. Kudos to Apple. Everyone else had the same chances and they blew it. Now Apple - through a series of screw-ups - could lose that relationship, but the others (especially Microsoft) will never, ever create it. Not now. They lost their chance.

I'm not one of the fans. For me a product is a product: It does what I want it to, or it doesn't. If a company consistently produces duds, or fails to support me through the invevitable issues that arise, then I become increasingly less likely to consider their products in the future. But I don't have it in me to love or to hate a company. Apparently though, many other people do and Microsoft has managed to press their 'hate' button whilst Apple has their love. It may be irrational - humans are - but it isn't unfair. Apple have worked hard and carefully to earn the position that they now have and you have to be impressed. Even if, like me, you don't really 'get it.'

[MAK11]

It's pretty obvious that a majority of the press is biased towards Apple. Looking at varous websites and forums from around the around I noticed that the hate towards Microsoft isn't caused by the same things. In France for example, it's mainly coming from some form of jealousy towards Bill Gates because he is rich, yeah it may sound stupid but in france if you have money then you are automatically a scumbag. In US it has more to do with the various ad campaigns directed against MS (like the MAC vs PC ads), something that isn't possible in other countries where it is against the law to name or compare your product to your competitors etc. If those ads where run in Europe (which is impossible) Apple would have been fined millions of Euros (especially since they are based on half truth and lies). Then there's the fact that MS has always been poor at marketing their products (some examples lately: photosynth,WWT, Live Mesh Zune , etc), they aren't helping their case. Finally there is viral marketing too. Apple seems to be a champion at it. My accusation are probably unfunded (though I saw a comment made by some ex Apple big wig saying that they did that since early/mid 90s, can't find the link anymore) but it's becoming more and more obvious that Apple is rewarding one way or another lots of editors,press etc (see, engadget,gizmodo,etc) and that a majority of the comments you see in forums etc are made by people paid to praise Apple's products and slang MS every time they do something, be it write or wrong.
EDIT: And unlike Apple, MS under estimated the fact that the more people start using PCs the dumber your average user is (which means the majority). Hence the proliferation of trolls and fanboys on the net these past years. Apple mastered that IMO.

MAK

[virain]

And don't forget how much impact on a average person makes TV and Movie industry. If you compare movies from earlier 90's to today's, you will see that all the PC's are replaced by MAC, that's of course in the hands of "good" guys. Just watch and pay a little attention to hits such as Bruce Willis "Live free or Die Hard". Shining example of "not so direct" advertising. You have Apple's poster boy from commercials running around saving the world with Nokia and Mac, while Bad Guys work exclusively with PC, even for whatever reason the logo on HazMat van used to kidnap our heroes looks suspiciously like MS Windows logo. Check out early series of "Sex and the City" with the latest all computers are MAC there now. And people want to follow their "heroes", and there's no surprise they go to apple store.

[Mikey]

I've owned PDA's since the handheld PC days when the screens were monochrome, to almost every iPAQ up to the h5550, followed by my current Dell Axim x50v, as they were always very handy for someone who is always away from the office in field management, completely replacing my paper-based DayTimer system. When WM came out with Cingular's 8150, followed by twice trying the Treo 750, as well as Palm's Treo 650, I tried to converge from a BlackBerry & my handy x50v, but WM devices are a real pain to a power user, especially out of the box. We own a small business of 26 Papa John's Pizza restaurants in 3 states. I run one of those state's 13 stores. We never had the exchange server / hosted email service in house, therefor, BlackBerry Web client was awesome in that it was easy & it just worked. When I attempted to switch to W5, 6, & 6.1 devices, each time I received similar email AND syncing errors. I thought I couldn't converge. I kept the Axim in the back pocket & the BB Pearl in the holster. I really like my Pocket Informant (since 2002 sometime), Pocket Quicken 2.5, Laridian's PocketBible, e-Wallet, & ListPro Professional to name a few.

Then came the iPhone 2G about 8 months ago. In one word, EASY. Similar to my BlackBerry but better, it has just worked for 8 months. No need to carry the BlackBerry AND the Axim. The calendar is pretty good. I now have Bible & E-Wallet on the device, with software titles adding daily, granted most are not worth any professional value, but some are. Apple also has the software store figured out, only taking 30% as I understand it, vs. Handango's raping.

Apple has a huge advatange in the way they chose to sell their software / devices DIRECT. This gives them the ability to better fix problems, when they do occur, AND they will occur, no matter the platform you choose to go with.

My best friend upgraded to the new iPhone & is having some problems with reception, but no more than we've both had with the underpowered & low memory Palm Treo 750, etc. that could not take on 2 calls coming within moments of each other. Apple WILL resolve this problem, I believe, with a much BETTER solution & MUCH quicker timeline than Windows Mobile. Question: How long has WM 6.1 been out? It was just announced for AT&T's Tilt last week or so, proving my point exactly. Or what about all of us who felt slighted by the fact our device that we paid $600+ for wasn't even getting the new upgrade?

There are many reasons that MS will always be slower at implementation than Apple from here on, but my point is that Apple WILL fix their issues much sooner than MS will AND the device will work for the masses. Do you guys realize that my mother could pick up the iPhone & set up email & WiFi on it without a manual? I personally was never able to have much of an experience at all with any WM device on WiFi, sometimes couldn't even figure out how to get on the network. I completely understand why the world loves Apple products, as I myself own the iPhome 2G, iPod 60GB Video, & the Shuffle. This is coming from a once die-hard Pocket PC fan who owned Jornada's, iPAQs, Dell's, Palms, etc. Apple is the way for me now.

[Mikey]

Reading numerous posts like some in this thread, it would appear that many here believe that the media is against Windows Mobile but how many of "us" are really happy with Microsoft's direction & support the past five years? I believe Apple is marketed to the masses which is why they're having so much success, because they work more efficiently for the general public than any WM phone I've ever used.

[mbking]

I think Apple customers live with some of the early problems knowing that the manufacturer will ultimately make it right. I've had both Microsoft and Apple products, and based on my experience, Apple has a better track record of getting the problems fixed and getting them fixed quickly. I spent decades as a loyal user of Windows and Windows Mobile products assuming that this was as good as it could be. I had high hopes for Vista. Those were dashed when I used it for the first time. I anticipated each release of Windows Mobile only to find the changes mostly cosmetic and way too infrequent. Glaring problems with that OS were often overlooked and made worse by the carriers adding their own under tested changes. We bought an iMac in December 2007 and have never looked back. Now mind you, it wasn't perfect. It would not complete it's setup out of the box. A call to Apple Support solved the problem and the machine has been flawless and a pure joy to use. It's faster and more stable than any PC I've ever used. I've added Time Capsule and Apple TV. As an early adopter, those products had issues, but those issues were resolved quickly through a series of updates for both. Now I have iPhone 3G. Same thing, as an early adopter, it hasn't been perfect. Even with it's imperfections, it far better than the Windows Mobile device it replaced and as with my past experience with Apple, they're updating it and making it better each time. This beats my experience with Microsoft over issues I had with Windows and Windows Mobile. Microsoft let me down. They just didn't listen often enough nor did they respond fast enough. Apple does. They may be secretive and even arrogant at times. But when you use their products, you realize they really do get it. They're not afraid to press the outer edge of the envelope. Products at that outer edge inherently have problems at the start. The measure of a good manufacturer is how they respond to those problems. My experience says Apple is just better at it.

Mark

[JesterMania]

I think Apple customers live with some of the early problems knowing that the manufacturer will ultimately make it right. I've had both Microsoft and Apple products, and based on my experience, Apple has a better track record of getting the problems fixed and getting them fixed quickly.

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

I can't agree more with what Mark said. I've used Windows from 3.1 to Vista and for the first time last month, started to use OSX 10.5 Leopard and this thing just blows Vista out of the water in terms of speed and stability. It just comes down to Apple having a better track record of fixing things. With Microsoft, it's always minor enhancements and fixes. Even between major releases, not much change/improvement/innovation (WM2003 -> WM6.1). Very disappointing. I think Apple has managed to take the risk of introducing new features and have the backing and commitment to fix things when they do go wrong.

[RogueSpear]

I ditched WM and got an iPhone. I've gone over the reasons here at length multiple times so there's not much sense in rehashing that. What I will say is that I couldn't have been happier with the iPhone and I couldn't believe what an upgrade this first generation device (for Apple) was over even the most advanced WM phone. Well along came firmware 2.0, 2.0.1, and now 2.0.2. I feel like I've been kicked back into the WM world all over again. My iPhone (2g) is now just as slow and crash prone as a device running WM.

I think Apple has been taking it on the chin pretty good the last couple of months and deservedly so. On the flip side of the coin I can't think of one single thing Microsoft has done or released in the last several years that would warrant praise.

So I think that they both stink. I'm going to let the remaining 14 months or so run out on my contract with AT&T and hopefully by then the second gen Androids will be out. If those turn out to be turkeys as well I'll just have to see whatever is best at the time.

[onlydarksets]

I have very little product loyalty. I'll go with whatever does the job best. Apple is currently filling that bill, but Android or WM7 might very well supplant it.

[joker]

Apple things are widely considered as toys. You don't expect much from toys.

[joker]

Question: How long has WM 6.1 been out? It was just announced for AT&T's Tilt last week or so, proving my point exactly. Or what about all of us who felt slighted by the fact our device that we paid $600+ for wasn't even getting the new upgrade?Microsoft doesn't decide that, your device manufacturer does.

Even between major releases, not much change/improvement/innovation (WM2003 -> WM6.1). Very disappointing.I just made that move, from WM2003SE to WM6.1, and I could tell the exact opposite.

[unxmully]

Anyone who thinks Mac/Apple users don't complain about defects needs to either get their head examined or spend some time looking at the macrumors discussion forums.

When leopard came out, at first it was a complete bag of spanners and many people were more than happy to tell Apple as much. Apple forums, Macrumors forums, many of the fan sites were full of people complaining about the quality, rolling back to Tiger and all sorts of noise.

So the press may or may no have a love affair with Steve and Apple, but the users are more than happy to bitch and moan with the best of them.

[whydidnt]

I agree that Apple is getting much more leeway today than Microsoft, both from its users and the "press". Some of this is because Apple is still considered the "underdog", and we all seem to want the underdog to win. Even though it's not true in the MP3 space, and probably won't be true for long in the mobile phone space. Another component is the goodwill Apple has built over the last decade - they haven't typically over promised, and have usually been very good at what they say they'll do. They have built significant loyalty in their user base because of this.

As time goes on and Apple becomes a larger player in more markets, and attempts to deliver more features/functions they will run into more and more obstacles and spend more and more goodwill along the way, so things will start to even out.

One final thought - have you ever heard of anyone complaining to Bill Gates and getting a reply that says, we know it's a problem and we're going to fix it, like some have gotten from Steve Jobs? In the grand scheme of things it doesn't sound meaningful, but to a lot of people, the fact that Apple admits it screwed up and indicates it's trying to fix things gives them a lot more latitude. A typical Microsoft response is to indicate they'll look into, or worse no response at all. From a communication standpoint, Apple has been much more open about their recent problems than Microsoft tends to be, and they seem to address those issues quicker. Look how long Vista SP1 took to get out the door.

[unxmully]

Microsoft doesn't decide that, your device manufacturer does.

Microsoft chose their engagement model with the manufacturers.

[onlydarksets]

Microsoft chose their engagement model with the manufacturers.
Yes, in the same way that I "chose" VZW's arbitrary 5GB cap on wireless data. I didn't really have much of a choice.

MS does need to address this somehow. There are so many pieces to the puzzle (MS->hardware->carrier), and I don't really understand if there is a technical reason preventing them from treating WM updates as they do OS updates.

[bladeharvest]

My experience with windows has been a love hate relationship. I have had windows from 3.0 until Vista. I have multiple handhelds with WM5. I recently moved from a desktop to a notebook as my primary computer. Vista gave me trouble out of the box. I upgraded to ultimate only to experience more bugs. Finally blue screen. It was a software issue that Microsoft did not have a fix for. I was tired of needing constant patches to repair or fix security problems.
I just switched for the first time to Mac. The quality and ease of use is worlds away from windows. I do not have a grudge against microsoft in fact I run xp on the backside of my mac for windows applications that are still important to me. I still sync my handhelds with my mac using cross platform third party software.
If my company's phone carrier picks up iphone, I will get one in a heart beat. Apple does have its problems but it is the lesser of the 2 evils. With my mac I can walk into any apple store and get help not just with the hardware but the software. Their products reflect quality and ease of use.
Critics may give apple a pass because of the unexplainable disdain for Bill Gates and Microsft. Microsoft has been an industry leader and as such has failed in many ways. Vista was nothing more than the "New Coke".
And yes, Apple does have a cult following similar to Harley. I am not sure if I fall into that category yet but I have had a recent itch to go out and look for a new bike.

[Cybrid]

(MS->hardware->carrier), and I don't really understand if there is a technical reason preventing them from treating WM updates as they do OS updates.No, there isn't....more on this later.

The original post was about Apple not being viewed objectively. This will not change. Most people are brand agnostic but to the brand conscious, this somehow forms part of their identity. "I'm a Mac guy" or a "Marlboro Man".
While I wish I could objectively say I'm agnostic, I'm probably WinMo biased.

Apple has full control over essentially 2 devices. You only need to build two ROMs. Which BTW are 118Mb. Apps are 10+ Mb's too. Huge! Bloat. I will however revisit that.

MS licensers have hundreds of types devices requiring a base OS + drivers for each one.
This leads to:
Scenario A: A base OS is distributed and licensers are on their own to make or break ROM upgrades. This is what we currently have...
Scenario B: Device manufacturer's would simply create a platfom with drivers. Any OS could be loaded over top. The way the PC World works.
In the PC World having Gb's to play with...You can build an OS with additional drivers included...The lack of large storage is the deciding factor. On iTunes, my wife 's Apple Touch lists
Music 3.xGb, .9Gb photos, 5.6 Video, 3.39 Gb Other.
The 3.39Gb is the OS plus apps installed. When updating, I realized it worked on the PC model. Theres a base driver set and the OS sits overtop.
On a hard reset Touch you get 0 Mb's on all except 118Mb other. This is twice what WinMo is on most devices. While there is no way to objectively compare the two... I prefer the leaner approach.

[hnelson59]

i have the iPod Touch - the Iphone w/o the phone - and i have been extremely impressed with it. it has replaced my Axim X50v as my day-to-day hand held of choice. the ui is easy to use, it has a longer battery life than my Axim and the updates are easy to obtain and install. the only program i am currently waiting for is PI for the iPhone/iPod Tocuh and then my X50v will loose its USB slot on my computer.

one of the biggest reasons i have switched started with the debacle that Dell gave Axim owners with the WM5 upgrade. for me it has gone down hill from there.

i know i have the Touch and not the iPhone, but i figured i would throw in my 2 cents. :)

have a great day everybody!

[elbowz]

Apple's treatment at the hands of the press is different from Microsoft's. Apple's users see Apple differently to how Microsoft's see Microsoft. There's an adage that says the best supported team in the world is whoever is currently playing against Manchester United. Its a similar thing with Microsoft.

However, how many times have you come within an ace of dashing your WinMo device against the nearest wall? My MDA Vario III has so many usability issues its untrue; the HTC Advantage is monstrously bad and going back through my (extensive) WinMo history I can find serious flaws in every device. Save the HTC S620, although even then only after the WM6 update cured some flaws. Some (like the XDA IIi's awful 5-way pad and SD slot flaw; iPaq 214's screen) are down to the OEM, but most rest squarely at Microsoft's door. How can WMP mobile be so god-awful; why is PIE still so limited after all these years; why can't Pocket Outlook handle HTML email on a push connection???

Remember MS are on their seventh major release of WinMo (and its precursors) in which time they haven't managed to sort a proper firmware update process (bugs in your device's version and your operator hasn't released an update? Tough); haven't managed to fix synchronisation woes (Activesync was nearly there at 4.5; Mobile Device Centre is a joke in very poor taste); still can't get WMP and WMP mobile to play nicely and haven't managed to sort out round tripping of Office documents. Whatever goodwill MS was owed over WinMo got used up a long time ago.

If Apple haven't sorted their problems by the time we're up to the seventh generation iPhone I should imagine they'll suffer in a similar way to Microsoft. Anyone think that's likely to happen?

[JesterMania]

I just made that move, from WM2003SE to WM6.1, and I could tell the exact opposite.

I moved from WM2003SE -> WM5 -> WM6 -> WM6.1 and after playing with OSX on iPod Touch and iPhone, I'm ready to switch over.

You did WM2003SE -> WM6.1. Try WM2003SE to iPhone OSX? ;)

[Rocco Augusto]

I think it all comes down to perception. People think of Microsoft and they think of Bill Gates, who is publicly seen as a super nerdy guy, and then Steve Jobs with his scruffy beard and black turtle neck sweater. You have expect Steve to smack a pull a Fonzie and smack a jukebox and make magic happen.

Heck not to long ago when Steve and Bill were together on stage for an interview, Bill made a comment that he wish he had Steve's sense of style. Bill retiring was a good thing and it gives Microsoft a chance to put a fresh new face up there.

If they were smart, Microsoft would make Jay Allard the new public face of Microsoft. People love (http://forums.thoughtsmedia.com/f5/how-cool-j-allard-let-ars-technica-count-ways-22929.html) Jay Allard.

[joker]

I moved from WM2003SE -> WM5 -> WM6 -> WM6.1 and after playing with OSX on iPod Touch and iPhone, I'm ready to switch over.

You did WM2003SE -> WM6.1. Try WM2003SE to iPhone OSX? ;)I had an iPhone to play with for several hours and the experience overall was ugly compared to a WM (Pro) device.

Sure, the look and feel was convincing, but nothing else was.

I missed the flexibility and professionalism of WM.

EDIT:
Underwater Mike, I just don't care about you, really. You mean nothing to me, though I still comment on your crap.

I am uninformed? Re-read my post, I had an iPhone for several hours. No no, you are illiterate.

If you call me a fanboy, I will call you a hypocrite. As simple as that.
And yes, you are a hypocrite!
You never really used Windows Mobile, that's why the iPhone suits you and that's why WM's subset called iPhone is enough for you.

The simple toys for you and the masses, the professional tools for the rest of us.

[Underwater Mike]

Apple things are widely considered as toys. You don't expect much from toys.

That is undoubtedly the most uninformed fanboy statement I've heard in a long while. And as to Apple products being featured in mainstream media, those are paid placements, not programming bias.

I was a full-bore MSFT user until getting my iPhone a month ago. It ain't perfect, but it's better than any WM device I've owned in the last eight years.

[virain]

That is undoubtedly the most uninformed fanboy statement I've heard in a long while. And as to Apple products being featured in mainstream media, those are paid placements, not programming bias.Well some are, and some aren't just read engadget.com posts. I don't think those AOL guys are paid by Apple under the table, but you could clearly see their bais towards anything Apple makes, even if it is news on Apple's screw up, it sounds very forgiving, while anything about MS products posted is with as much sarcasm and hatred.

I was a full-bore MSFT user until getting my iPhone a month ago. It ain't perfect, but it's better than any WM device I've owned in the last eight years.
So, your needs in computing do not go much beyond basic functionality, s.a. make a call, listen music, watch video, flip through few pages on internet, read email, and maybe play a game. That's O'K, iPhone is definitely a device for you! Some people need to do more than that, and that's when windows functionality comes in! I have 3G iPhone, and I agree with joker, there's nothing besides it's look that attracts me.

[Rob Alexander]

For a significant proportion of customers, being an Apple user is part of their identity. "I'm a Mac guy." For whatever reason, it's a personal thing in which they are emotionally invested. Before anyone gets too hot about it, I'm not saying all Apple users do this, I'm just saying it's a significant proportion of them. For these people, it's important to be cool, to be right and not to be a 'minion' of the evil Microsoft empire.

These are the guys who will still say with a straight face that Apples are faster than PCs, Apples are better for graphics than PCs, and the rest of the assorted nonsense that hasn't been true or relevant in over a decade. These guys may well complain about flaws in Apple OS's amongst themselves, but they will quickly close ranks and deny everything when put in the context of comparing their beloved Apple to Microsoft. And, yes, they will forgive Apple almost anything because they believe they really are a part of Apple and that Apple cares about them. Good for Apple for creating that illusion so effectively; they deserve credit for building such a loyal fan base.

There are MS fanatics too, but it's a tiny proportion of the user base. The vast majority of Windows users simply made a pragmatic choice to go with Windows based on cost, software availability, gaming performance, hardware flexibility, etc. And if there is one thing that MS has not done, it is to make Windows users feel even the slightest bit of loyalty to the company. Even many of us like me who are firmly in the Windows camp (because for my needs, Windows is a much better product) cannot feel loyalty to a company that says, 'We think you've stolen your copy of Windows, prove that you haven't,' every time you want to apply a simple security update. So yeah, when you don't really like the company you buy things from, then you feel free to attack it when they don't do a good job at something, and you don't come to its defense when someone attacks it like with those absurd (basically fraudulent) Apple/PC Guy ads.

If MS responded in kind with ads claiming things that aren't true about OSX, the outrage from the Apple community would itself become news, and the false claims would quickly be discredited under the intense public scrutiny. But when Apple does that, PC users just shrug and ignore it because they don't care at all about MS. They just want to get their work done and get on with their lives. It really doesn't matter if it's fair or not because each is the result of the relationship the respective company has chosen to develop with its users. There are advantages to both models, but one of the advantages of Apple's model is that its users are more foregiving.

[unxmully]

anything about MS products posted is with as much sarcasm and hatred.

Perhaps the 20 years of poor performance, high cost, failure to address customer needs and questionable business practices has had a bearing on this?

[virain]

Perhaps the 20 years of poor performance, high cost, failure to address customer needs and questionable business practices has had a bearing on this?
Perhaps media and political (remember, all those "questionable business practices" issues started when MS didn't commit to Clinton's re-election campaign in 90's) unfavorable bias towards MS makes an elephant out of a fly. Take any successful corp. in this industry including your beloved Apple Inc. and you find as much problems if not more than MS has, but MS is more expose, primarily because it doesn't fight this back, and trying to play a nice guy. And why not, after they've been taken to the cleaners by greedy politicians and competition sore losers, who were all to happy to ride the wave . And media? those above got MS down, and media just keep kicking as long as it is down, what the hell, it doesn't kick back so it is safe!

[MAK11]

MS is about to open a can of whoopass on Apple....
http://www.istartedsomething.com/20080831/microsoft-launch-skymarket-applications-marketplace-windows-mobile-7/

[jhonekumar]

I don't know why people are suffering with unlocking and all the blah blah with apple iphone.

I have a Pocket PC, I used a iphone theme (http://www.iphonethemeforpocketpc.com/) and everything worked like a magic to me. Now I'm having the iphone experience in my Pocket PC.

[Torque]

Everyone knows that Apple produced a smartphone that, while it gives a good user experience, it lacks features already found in other smartphones. I could argue that it was over priced, but it was no more expensive than any other smartphone. $500 is the general average. Had any other vendor produced a smartphone that lacked features commonly found in others, they'd have been severely criticized by the media as well as consumers. Apple fans are willing to overlook the product's short comings, performance issues, and 3G connectivity problems just because it's an Apple product. No one feels that way about Symbian, Palm, or Windows Mobile products. Business users swear by their Blackberries, but no one has ever stood in line to buy a Blackberry at launch. No one has ever stood in line to buy any other smartphone. Even the fact that users had to switch to AT&T hasn't stopped uptake of the iPhone, but problems keep cropping up and we can only wonder if anything can shake the coolaid drinking masses from their obsession with their fruit flavored kit.

Apple has a legendary brand awareness. Apple could be selling notepads with ink pens and people would line up to buy them because Apple makes them. No other vendor has that kind of devotion. Mac users are very emotional about their choice of kit and it's highly unlikely that any of the iPhone problems will deter the Apple Love Fest from continuing. We can thank Windows Vista for heightened interest in Apple products, particularly the fact that Apple Macbooks and Macbook Pros are outselling the entire PC industry. Maybe the Apple TV adds are working better than we think.

[Torque]

MS is about to open a can of whoopass on Apple....
http://www.istartedsomething.com/20080831/microsoft-launch-skymarket-applications-marketplace-windows-mobile-7/

Microsoft open "a can of whoopass on Apple"? When? With what? A Windows Mobile 7 app store? Before we even get to applications, we must have a Windows Mobile 7 platform that works better than Windows Mobile 6. It would help more if Microsoft limited the number, type, and design of devices that run Windows Mobile. That would help quality control and produce a more consistent user experience. To iPhone users, this is little more than a "Me Too" effort. There are people who firmly believe that Windows is little more than a bad copy of Mac OS. Microsoft needs to spend some money on advertising. Apple has been opening up a can of Whoopas on Vista and that is winning them converts, sales, and an increase in market share. Microsoft needs to re-evaluate it's position, products, and strategy and do something in a timely manner. A "Me too" tactic won't work.

[hamishmacdonald]

I bought an iPhone. I've been using WinMo devices for eight years, upgrading about once a year. I needed all that computer functionality, but when a recent change in my work required me to use a full PC on the road (I bought a UMPC), I no longer needed some of those officey WM-specific features, and wanted something just to support my daily life. Having had a few minutes with a friend's iPhone, I found myself growing more and more frustrated with the roadblocks my WM device put in my way.

As for the news, I suppose people have a soft spot for Apple, particularly media professionals. Those in publishing are often Mac-based; I know when I did graphic design I was one of those horrible zealots who banged on about Windows boxen even though I'd never really used one. But because Apple fans have that zeal and that expectation that "It just works", the cognative dissonance when it doesn't is directly proportional, and they *do* scream. Have you been reading Apple's support boards? The media may be cutting them slack, but users are certainly not. (Lord knows why people get their personalities so tied up with the objects they use, but it happens.)

But I haven't been an Apple fanboy for years. I find their ongoing Mac/PC campaign smug, dishonest, and irritating. I've tried to avoid anything white-plastic for years. Because Apple dropped the Newton, I switched to a Pocket PC, then to Windows since it supported PPCs natively.

My experience now with this iPhone makes me angry that I put up with such a bad product from Microsoft for so long, making allowances for its incredibly fiddly interface and buying device after device even though they only featured tiny, incremental improvements (often not fixing basic problems like unreliable alarms) and only once did I ever receive an upgrade that didn't come at the price of buying a whole new PDA.

Now I'm buying and installing really useful applications for 59 pence -- not the $12.99 or $19.99 that WinMo apps typically cost me. Navigating music on the go is foolishly easy, and the sound quality is so much better that at first I kept doubting that the sound was actually coming from the headphones, putting the phone to my ear to see if the music was coming through the air.

Even stranger, I find myself contemplating changing my desktop to an Apple, which makes no sense, since I've got QuarkXPress installed on my PC, and they'd charge hundreds of pounds for a cross-grade and demand a blood sample, some hair, a personal visit from one of their gestapo, etc. It's foolish, but the user experience on this iPhone is so much better that I'm shaking my head. And this is not because I'm a dumb n00b; I've been on the bleeding edge with these devices since Day One.

So, after all this, I must say thank you SO much to the community on these boards who helped me figure out the most obscure problems with my various Windows Mobile devices. This is a most clever and generous group of people, and I'm grateful for all your helpful responses.

But that's that for me and Windows Mobile :/

[Rocco Augusto]

Perhaps the 20 years of poor performance, high cost, failure to address customer needs and questionable business practices has had a bearing on this?

high cost... are we talking about Apple or Microsoft here? I lost track :(

[Jason Dunn]

Apple has a legendary brand awareness. Apple could be selling notepads with ink pens and people would line up to buy them because Apple makes them. No other vendor has that kind of devotion

Great post Torque - very astute analysis of Apple's brand. I can imagine the tears of anguish shed by marketing people all over the world as they scream into their pillows at night "OUR PRODUCT IS COOL! WHY DOESN'T ANYONE CARE ABOUT IT LIKE THEY DO ABOUT APPLE PRODUCTS!". What Apple has managed to cultivate over the years is quite amazing - it's really a modern marvel of marketing.

However...

I've noticed that Apple's extreme brand loyalty seems to be directly inverse of their marketshare. For instance, when it comes to iMacs and Macbooks, which in the overall world-wide market-share are quite tiny, you see a lot of loyalty. People who use OS X seem to really love OS X. Ditto for the iPhone (also a very small player world-wide). But when you look at iPods, you see something different: massive market share, but less brand loyalty. I've seen more comments on my Zune YouTube videos than I can count from iPod owners who are saying they're sick of their iPods, how often they break, etc. It seems like there's a lot less brand loyalty with iPods - the only market where Apple is truly the 800 pound gorilla. Worth noting though is that Microsoft, SanDisk, and all the others haven't managed to do much with that. :rolleyes:

[virain]

high cost... are we talking about Apple or Microsoft here? I lost track :(

Yes, High Costs... if you include all the law suites MS has to settle, including with Apple

[unxmully]

Yes, High Costs... if you include all the law suites MS has to settle, including with Apple

Well if they didn't keep getting found guilty of abusing a monopoly position...

[Cybrid]

There are people who firmly believe that Windows is little more than a bad copy of Mac OS.... Microsoft needs to re-evaluate it's position, products, and strategy and do something in a timely manner. A "Me too" tactic won't work.And OSX is a so-so copy of Linux.... :)
But in truth you're right...

[MAK11]

http://solution.allthingsd.com/20080903/htc-cant-disguise-windows-mobile-flaws/
This illustrate what I've said in my first post.
Lying doesn't seem to bother the reviewer either. (note what is said about Opera not rendering web pages correctly etc..)
It's a shame IMO :mad::mad:

[onlydarksets]

http://solution.allthingsd.com/20080903/htc-cant-disguise-windows-mobile-flaws/
This illustrate what I've said in my first post.
Lying doesn't seem to bother the reviewer either. (note what is said about Opera not rendering web pages correctly etc..)
It's a shame IMO :mad::mad:
A shame, but not shocking. You saw this at the end, right?
Edited by Walter S. Mossberg

[MAK11]

A shame, but not shocking. You saw this at the end, right?
Yup, but he didn't write it, Katherine Boehretdid. Who the hell she is , I don't know. She sure is on Apple's payola tho..

[Dyvim]

Lying doesn't seem to bother the reviewer either. (note what is said about Opera not rendering web pages correctly etc..)
And what lie did the reviewer tell? I read something about Opera rendering pages differently from the desktop (and the review continues on to describe exactly how it is different), not anything about Opera not rendering correctly. Just because you may not agree with the reviewer, doesn't make her a liar or even biased for that matter.

[Dyvim]

Yup, but he didn't write it, Katherine Boehretdid. Who the hell she is , I don't know. She sure is on Apple's payola tho..
Here's a newsflash: you don't have to be on Apple's payroll to think the HTC Touch Diamond is a me-too device that just slaps a very nice coat of paint on the pig's ear that is Windows Mobile's UI (sorry about the mixed metaphor there). Of course the Touch Diamond has much more functionality at its core than the iPhone (as do all modern high-end WinMo devices), but the reviewer makes a very valid point about how the Touch Flo 3D doesn't go far enough when you end up dumped back into WinMo's built-in mail app (which looks little different now than when it debuted in its Pocket PC version in 2000) every time you want to compose an email.

Maybe one day, HTC (or someone else) will figure out how to completely skin Windows Mobile so that everything has a clean, modern-looking, finger-friendly and easy-to-use UI. Or perhaps MS will finally fix their UI with WinMo 7. Until then, they deserve the criticism they get for a UI that isn't quite up to snuff in 2008 (or 2007 for that matter).

[MAK11]

And what lie did the reviewer tell? I read something about Opera rendering pages differently from the desktop (and the review continues on to describe exactly how it is different), not anything about Opera not rendering correctly. Just because you may not agree with the reviewer, doesn't make her a liar or even biased for that matter.
I can't take screenshots right now on my Diamond so I'm posting Surur's comment from engadget:

“Unlike the iPhone, Web sites that are opened on the Diamond’s browser don’t resemble the actual site as you would see it on your computer. I opened CNN.com and WSJ.com, two sites that are packed with text and graphics on a regular browser. On the Diamond, they quickly were rendered in list format with mostly text-only. I easily touched the screen to follow links to full stories.”
—————————-

What crap. Here’s screenshots from CNN and WSJ, and except for the absence of flash, they look near identical.

WSJ - HTC Touch Diamond
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/929/wsjhx5.png

WSJ - Desktop
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4471/wsjdtzv2.png

CNN - HTC Touch Diamond
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/801/cnnmc3.png

CNN - Desktop
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7127/cnndtvl7.png

She complains about the keyboard, when the Touch Diamond has 3 finger-friendly versions built-in, one with gigantic keys. She complains of WM popping up all the time, and gives the example of e-mail, when thats the only place where it goes straight to the wi-mo (very powerful) e-mail client.

She is basically full of crap. (btw its not Walt who did the review, but his secretary)

[MAK11]

Here's a newsflash: you don't have to be on Apple's payroll to think the HTC Touch Diamond is a me-too device that just slaps a very nice coat of paint on the pig's ear that is Windows Mobile's UI (sorry about the mixed metaphor there). Of course the Touch Diamond has much more functionality at its core than the iPhone (as do all modern high-end WinMo devices), but the reviewer makes a very vaild point about how the Touch Flo 3D doesn't go far enough when you end up dumped back into WinMo's built-in mail app (which looks little different now than when it debuted in its Pocket PC version in 2000) every time you want to compose an email.

Maybe one day, HTC (or someone else) will figure out how to completely skin Windows Mobile so that everything has a clean, modern-looking, finger-friendly and easy-to-use UI. Or perhaps MS will finally fix their UI with WinMo 7. Until then, they deserve the criticism they get for a UI that isn't quite up to snuff in 2008 (or 2007 for that matter).
If this makes you feel better about you iPhone, iPods purchase, good for you. :)

[Dyvim]

I can't take screenshots right now on my Diamond so I'm posting Surur's comment from engadget:
Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen that one yet. You're right, there is no significant difference between the desktop and Touch Diamond screenshots. So, I have to call B.S. on that one, provided that that's how Opera on Diamond behaves out of the box (without having to upgrade or adjust a single setting).

However, I still don't think that makes her a liar, although clearly she is incorrect (and may well be lying, but I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt).

[MAK11]

Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen that one yet. You're right, there is no significant difference between the desktop and Touch Diamond screenshots. So, I have to call B.S. on that one, provided that that's how Opera on Diamond behaves out of the box (without having to upgrade or adjust a single setting).

However, I still don't think that makes her a liar, although clearly she is incorrect (and may well be lying, but I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt).
Maybe not a liar I agree that I may have used a strong word. But it is starting to get old, sieng so called reviewers bashing avery non Apple prodcut just because it's the cool thing to do. :(

And yes this is how Opera works out of the box.
And like Surur said, The only time TouchFlo 3D reverts back to plain WM interface is in Outlook Mobile (mail/sms, calender, contacts) and even then everything is bigger now (fonts,menus etc) and usable with the finger or the capcitive touch wheel (touch scroll). Everything else is through TouchFlo 3D (photo, video, music library, weather, programs,ringtones etc)

[Dyvim]

If this makes you feel better about you iPhone, iPods purchase, good for you. :)
Ho, ho! Who's being a biased fanboi now?:cool:

I don't have to feel one way or the other about my iPhone purchase- I'm a mobile device programmer (specializing in Windows CE since 1999) and as such my company buys me any device I ask them for and picks up the cell phone and data plan too. So I can use pretty much any device I want and switch at will. At the moment, the iPhone best fits my usage pattern (admittedly light these days- I'm a recovering power user). Next month, who knows? I had blindly dismissed the iPhone last year, until I bought one for my wife and spent a couple days getting it fully configured and loaded with media for her. Only then did I realize how tired I was of Windows Mobile and how little it has progressed since 2004 (IMO, the last major UI changes were support for VGA and orientation switching in WM 2003 SE). Within 2 weeks, I had to get one for myself. So, yeah I was ready for something different, maybe anything different. (Interestingly enough, my bosses who are huge MS fans since we are purely a Windows/Windows Mobile software development house, are now both on iPhones too as is our IT guy- none of these folks are strangers to Windows Mobile, they're just ready for something that's easier to use on a day to day basis and being easier on the eyes doesn't hurt either.)

As far as the iPods go, my first iPod (the mini) was a gift. I had dismissed iPods simply because they were so popular (without ever having seen or used one) and was proudly using WMP on various WinMo devices when my wife gave me an iPod mini in 2004. Suffice it to say that I enjoyed it enough to buy a couple more in 2005, mostly because of the iPod accessory ecosystem and iTunes for music management.

Just because I'm currently on an iPhone and own a few iPods doesn't mean I'm not a WinMo fan (check my history on these sites and Brighthand going back 3.5 years). But just because I'm a WinMo fan, doesn't mean I can't be a critic either. As a mobile device programmer I'm pretty familiar with the good, bad, and the ugly of Windows CE in its various incarnations. And yeah, I've been expecting something more from Microsoft in recent years.

[MAK11]

Ho, ho! Who's being a biased fanboi now?:cool:

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

:p I was just teasing you! :(
This reminds me that My first PDA was an iPAQ 3800 (600$!) that I bought in Vegas during COMDEX 2001. It lasted exactly 24Hours before dying! I had to send it back to Compaq (Comdex was finished and I bought it at mobilplanet's booth IIRC) and go back to europe. I waited 3 months to get it back from them (they basicaly gave mea new one. Now that sucked!
I own 2 iPods btw

[onlydarksets]

Yup, but he didn't write it, Katherine Boehretdid. Who the hell she is , I don't know. She sure is on Apple's payola tho..
He edited it, which, at the WSJ, means she is basically a shill for Mossberg. Mossberg's impartiality is completely shot with respect to the iPhone or anything competing with it.

[joker]

Maybe one day, HTC (or someone else) will figure out how to completely skin Windows Mobile so that everything has a clean, modern-looking, finger-friendly and easy-to-use UI. Or perhaps MS will finally fix their UI with WinMo 7. Until then, they deserve the criticism they get for a UI that isn't quite up to snuff in 2008 (or 2007 for that matter).You do that in one year? Than I will make you a millionaire.



Btw, Underwater Mike, re-read my post you complained about.
Go back to page 3, you aren't even worth a new post.

[Jason Dunn]

http://solution.allthingsd.com/20080903/htc-cant-disguise-windows-mobile-flaws/ This illustrate what I've said in my first post.

I'm working on a front page post about this article actually...

[Jason Dunn]

And what lie did the reviewer tell? I read something about Opera rendering pages differently from the desktop (and the review continues on to describe exactly how it is different), not anything about Opera not rendering correctly.

She either used IE Mobile, or she used Opera on site that detects the mobile browser and serves up a mobile/WAP site. Same thing with the keyboard - she must have gotten the tiny WinMo keyboard up instead of the more finger-friendly HTC keyboard.

So it's either lazy reporting, or wilful deceit. Take your pick. :) Either way, it's baseless criticism - except, perhaps, if she were trying to make the point that having two Web browsers or two keyboards on the device could be confusing because you could launch the wrong one and not realize it - but she didn't mention that, so I really doubt that's her point...

Walt and his flunkies are so Apple focused that they really don't take the time they need to understand/appreciate things that are different. They shoot first and ask questions...never.

[Cybrid]

She either used IE Mobile, or she used Opera on site that detects the mobile browser and serves up a mobile/WAP site.
Or had the "One Column" Wrap to fit setting.

Same thing with the keyboard - she must have gotten the tiny WinMo keyboard up instead of the more finger-friendly HTC keyboard.Or she had "Man hands"... :) I found the Touch and my co-workers Diamond keyboards small.


So it's either lazy reporting, or wilful deceit. Take your pick. :) Either way, it's baseless criticism - To a large degree...yes. In addition,...as with "The truth about Vista'' article, the best way to boost readership is to tell the reader a sensationalist version of what they want to hear.
"Palm, Apple are sooo stable...Windows needs resets every 20 minutes."
"Who cares if their simple interface leads to a seriously inferior level of functionality...It's just sooo pretty"
"Bill Gates is the devil...and Steve Jobs is an Angel...even his farts smell like rose sherbet" :D

[joker]

Oh damn, on that mentioned site this person Katherine Boehret looks so ugly.
Must be ugly persons to ugly websites that take ages to fully load.

In that unqualified article the text string "iPhone" is sown 11 times.

What made me laugh, besides her ugly face, is this:The HTC Touch Diamond ... tries to hide Windows Mobile software.
and this:
outdated operating systemOdd, the CE/WM platform is much more developed and flexible than the iPhone OSX.

This is a lie:
This screen lacks the iPhone’s multitouch functionalityThe Diamond display sure is multitouch capable.
Not using them or not yet, is another story.

Obviously she is too lame to handle the professionalism of WM. That's why she gets frustrated over the professional interface that is way too complicated for her simple mind which only wants to toy around with something that Apple can feed her.

But some of the comments on that article are even more idiotic and also a good laugh. :D
It started right away with the first comment, from this "research and development" guy.
I just thought what a restricted horizon he must have.


Btw I just equipped my Diamond with a locking software which locks and unlocks the device by rotating it in the hand.
What does the iPhone do again?


Now I ask myself: Is this really worth posting or just ignore the teasers and go ahead with the right stuff?

[Jason Dunn]

Or she had "Man hands"... :) I found the Touch and my co-workers Diamond keyboards small.

I found the on-screen keyboard on the Touch Diamond hard to get used to, but it's virtually identical to the iPhone keyboard, so it seems silly to say that one is so much worse than the other. I'm willing to bet she was using the Microsoft mini stylus-based keyboard.

[Jason Dunn]

Oh damn, on that mentioned site this person Katherine Boehret looks so ugly. Must be ugly persons to ugly websites that take ages to fully load.

Criticizing the way someone looks instead of their ideas is a cheap shot and it completely nullifies any further comments you might have.

[joker]

Your worst mistake here is that you really dare to judge your readers, Jason.
But you didn't manage to warn the person that attacked me personally in this thread, did you?.

I saw the whole article from that unqualified girl as a joke anyway,
so my ranting phrases weren't meant seriously, just like I cannot take her person seriously.

And to be honest, her ideas are even more uglier than her face is.
She is unqualified and incompetent, and most of the people here seem to think the same about her.

By the way, she really doesn't have to use a photo for her editor profile, does she? :)
You also don't have a real photo on your avatar, Jason, instead you're using a robot's face.

I like some of your articles, Jason, but I really don't care about your opinion.
Go on, get over.