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View Full Version : Is Windows Mobile Turning Into Palm OS From a Development Standpoint?


Jason Dunn
07-11-2008, 07:00 PM
<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.pocketinformant.com/Forums/index.php?autocom=blog&blogid=1&showentry=54' target='_blank'>http://www.pocketinformant.com/Foru...=1&showentry=54</a><br /><br /></div><p><em>"A few years ago Palm was at the top of its game and had thousands of applications. But quickly developers started leaving and going to the more stable Windows Mobile. It had little to do with the operating system or zen of Palm or whatever. It had to do with the fact that the OS was becoming fragmented and becoming difficult to deal with as each device that came out broke this or that. You no longer were writing software for the Palm, but instead for the Palm Zire, or the III or whatnot. Each device had a custom PalmOS that required some custom coding for. Mostly due to HTC, Windows Mobile is slowly going that same way. In the past we could write to the Windows Mobile spec and mostly everything worked on any device. Now HTC is doing so much custom stuff and breaking so many things its ridiculous."</em></p><br /><p>Alex Kac, head guru over at <a href="http://www.webis.net/index.php" target="_blank">WebIS</a>, raises some interesting points about the dangerous cliff that Windows Mobile is heading towards - or perhaps has already gone over if you ask Alex. Looking back to the first generation of Windows Mobile devices, you had three devices with 320 x 240 screens, no physical keyboards, and similar RAM/CPU configurations (although there was that whole MIPS/SH3/ARM thing). From a development standpoint, that's a about as easy as it gets. Remember though that Microsoft was criticized for being too strict in their requirements for the hardware, and many of us wanted to see more variation in the designs we were seeing. Boy did we get it! Fast-forward eight years, and we have a staggering array of devices with huge variations amongst screen resolutions, CPUs, RAM, and input methods. That's enough to give any developer a headache.</p><br /><p>Has Windows Mobile gotten out of control in this regard? A platform isn't really much of a platform if, from a development perspective, you have to code for every variation of device. We don't really want to go back to the world of having only <a href="http://www.apple.com/iphone/" target="_blank">one choice</a> of devices, do we? What should Microsoft do about this?</p>

txa1265
07-11-2008, 08:35 PM
I'm not sure what they *can* do - heck, they can't do it for Windows! (play a PC game lately?)

But I do recall on the few Palm devices I had that as I advanced fewer and fewer things worked - different screens, etc ... and the same has been somewhat true with Pocket PC devices, though it got better when the processors converged ...

JesterMania
07-11-2008, 09:26 PM
Probably the root of the problem is that too much is left for device OEMs to implement with regards to Windows Mobile. Every time a new OS version comes out, we have to wait for the OEM to release their version of the OS specific for that device. That in itself is asking for big trouble due to a large part of development being pushed to manufacturers. Why is it that we cannot buy a CD containing a generic WM6 OS and flash to any WM-based device as long as it meets the system requirements (but we can buy a generic Vista DVD and install on most PCs)? It also seems there is no control for driver certification. In Windows, you have WHQL and you are supposedly guaranteed trouble-free operation as long as you stuck to the WHQL driver but I suspect none of these controls are in place for Windows Mobile.

alex_kac
07-11-2008, 10:48 PM
Probably the root of the problem is that too much is left for device OEMs to implement with regards to Windows Mobile.

That's actually the root that I'm talking about. The screen sizes, the different formats - I don't mind those. Its the fact that things break - Microsoft APIs break. One one device SMS APIs break. On another, MAPI APIs break. On another contact pictures are different formats.

So for me its the fact that OEMs have way too much control over drivers and quality.

Jason Dunn
07-11-2008, 11:20 PM
I'm not sure what they *can* do - heck, they can't do it for Windows! (play a PC game lately?)

I don't quite follow - are you referring to certain games requiring a certain level of graphics performance? I don't know if that's the same thing: the game will install, and work, just not as smoothly as you'd hope. That's a different thing...or are you referring to something else?

Pdaholic
07-11-2008, 11:30 PM
Check out the folks over at Treo Central with their spanking-new Treo 800w phones...Most of the software out there isn't compatible with the 320x320 screen.

TOCA
07-12-2008, 01:26 AM
Well I think that MS should ask their OEM's to stop make lookalikes and start making WM devices.

The first devices, up untill WM2003 was 2:3 form factor screens with 4 hardware buttons and a 5 way navigation button underneath, and maybe a 5th button on the side for recordings or what ever. Then came the Blackberry wannabe era, where all new WM machines needed to have square screens and a small QWERTY keyboard underneath, and today they all have to be Iphone wannabe lookalikes.

The added hardware keyboards are not the issue for programers, but the many layouts of hardware buttons and lack of them, plus non programable ones is a big issue, as is the many form factors of the screens (QVGA, WQVGA, VGA, WVGA, Square, Rectangular........) and different graphics accelerators.

Let's figure out what a WM PDA should look like, and stick to it, you can still make lots of variations to the design, even if there is only one type of screen (please let it be VGA) and one button layout (the old one please, maybe with the Record button replaced by a scroll wheel). But that would leave the Smartphones out and require going back to two versions of WM, and we can't do that now, can we :?

On the other hand, we could ask: Is there a problem for WM, or is it Apple who are walking the Plam line now?

Palm designed both hard and software, and decided what went where, making the Palm Pilots work so flawless, which was why they had that edge over WM for a long time (4 years is a looong time in hight tech business), isn't that exactly what Apple is doing now? We decides what is good for you, and what you need, if you want to have a say about it, go somewhere else????

amitregev
07-12-2008, 02:11 AM
I think we should remember that MS and Apple are selling a different products. MS are selling a platform for OEMs to build their mobile "Smart-phone" on top of their platform as a base layer, while Apple are selling a phone to end-users - the regular consumers, without trying to offer it as a solution to OEMs.

To continue selling the Windows Mobile platform to OEM companies MS have to keep the platform flexibility and allow OEMs to implement this level of customization with their devices and probably even more. If all Windows Mobile devices will be the same and will be shipped with the exact similar content then there isn't any need for such competition model between the different OEMs as they will all be forced to ship the exact same phone.

MS business model in this case is structured on the fact that they generate a complete market relying on their platform of different OEM companies that also compete between them on different implementation of MS OS - just think about the great position that such structure puts MS in!

I doubt it if the third-party applications market actually include more than 5% or so of all of Windows Mobile users since most of WM users simply buy a device to use the built in features that arrive with the device. This means that when HTC adds a new weather solution with their device they are offering a completely new feature that other companies doesn't have on their device (with the understanding that most users aren't familiar with the existence of third-party application option for their mobile device or they simply won't know how to install it).

Since I believe the third party applications market is relatively small from the large MS eyes, I don't think that the fact that there are lots of different variations for Windows Mobile devices is effecting MS too much, nor the majority of the Windows Mobile users.

Due to the difference in the models and target market between MS and Apple I don't think that we will see any changes soon since both companies simply have a different path in their hand and the only question is simply when one of MS OEMs will be able to produce something that will run on WM that will offer a better mobile solution from what Apple are offering at this stage.

Cheers! :)

Kirkaiya
07-12-2008, 07:54 PM
I don't blame HTC at all for "breaking" WinMo. I just recently bought a Touch Diamond, and (after updating the ROM to 1.37.456.2), it's an amazing device. My only complaint, in fact, is that the ugly, difficult and annoying Windows Mobile 6.1 interface is not more completely hidden. Every time I drop from TouchFlo 3D into Windows (to answer an email, or change my alarm, etc), it's a reminder of the ugly beast that still lurks beneath the slick, fast, and finger-friendly interface that HTC grafted on top of it.

However, since it's not really ideal having a great interface that isn't used for any programs I install, the solution is simple:

Microsoft needs to completely re-think, re-design and re-create the GUI for Windows Mobile. Not just another point-release, not yet another evolutionary change.

Far too many functions have been added to Windows Mobile devices since my Cassiopeia E-11, and my iPaq 3650 (the original Pocket PC shell) to be easily accessible thru that interface. My Diamond has a phone, sms, MMS, email, instant-messaging client, GPS, multiple network settings (3G, EDGE, WiFI, Bluetooth, etc), mobile versions of office apps, pocket Outlook for contacts and calendar...

That requires a different kind of interface. All I can say is, Microsoft better have *something* that seriously learns, and adopts where appropriate, from the iPhone, which has a very fluid and intuitive (but not perfect) user interface.

Having so many functions is pointless if they're difficult for people to get to, to change, and to configure, and Windows Mobile - even 6.1, which my Diamond has - looks not much different than my very first iPaq did back in 2000.

Windows Mobile 7 needs to provide the kind of interface natively that HTC and other companies - Samsung, etc - are being forced to put on top of WM 6.x. If Microsoft's UI was compelling, simple, attractive, and flexible (not an easy thing I know, but ****, they have BILLIONS to invest in this ), then HTC and others would not be forced to hide the beast under a pretty custom interface.

That's my 2 cents. I really like TouchFlo 3D, since at least *somebody* is trying to improve the user experience, and it sure as heck doesn't seem to be Microsoft lately. Maybe they should buy HTC, and learn a bit about aesthetics.

goofy166
07-13-2008, 12:46 AM
I agree with the basic argument that WM is just too far behind to catch up with the iPhone's GUI and that it needs to be completely made over. BUT I think we are forgetting the power the carriers wield. They have kept 3rd party apps off cell phones, pretty much stopping the development community. Apple changed the rules of the game and they drove the party not AT&T. So it seems to me that MS needs to sit down with Verizon and Sprint and T-Mobile and say "What are we doing guys? What is our answer to the iPhone? It better not follow the same history as the iPOD or we are toast. We did a fairly good job with the Zune. Why can't we do that with a phone?"

caywen
07-13-2008, 03:53 PM
Microsoft bringing over Win32 was, IMO, a double-edged sword that I think is proving to be a mistake. It lacks elegance and simplicity of any sort, and it puts too much burden of compatibility on the device and driver makers and the developers. I'm disappointed MS didn't make more progress with a more useable SDK on handhelds. Microsoft will find themselves in the same quagmire they found themselves in with Vista. Testing for compatibility will become a nightmare as Microsoft scrambles to match the capabilities of more nimble and well-executed competitors.

Cybrid
07-14-2008, 07:15 PM
While I cannot imagine a developers frustration of having something work on nearly everything and then fail on one device thus requiring additional time to fix and then have something break on another requiring even more time allocated to fixes. I have to honestly say there is no solution. Nor can there be.

The iPhone hardware "One size fits all" is not a solution. I like the variety in hardware. It gives me options. If my needs change and I require a quick BB keyboard style solution or if I wanted to keep my current Touch setup. I want that choice. To not have that is just wrong! I'd move to a company and OS that would give me that choice really quickly. Having had more devices than sense has taught me how some devices are better at something as opposed to others.

The iPhones lack of multitask ( Source (http://www.mikeash.com/?page=pyblog/deconstructing-the-iphone-sdk-no-multitasking.html) and Source (http://gizmodo.com/365327/iphone-sdk-limitation-only-one-user+made-app-running-concurrently-no-background-processes) .
C'mon! If you guys remember, we all laughed as Palm died since Garnet couldn't truly multitask. It is "Win Mo's" strength. D'you really wanna go back? :?

Competition means HTC et al are forced to add customizations to stand out. TouchFlo made the HTC Touch a *Star. This leads to the TouchFlo 2.0 on the Diamond and Raphael. Is that wrong? No!

In all, the real issue is really better code and better documentation. Isn't it?
HTC could do a much better job of building their drivers and writing cleaner apps with better documentation "PS we changed this because...so work around it by ...." Is that likely? Prolly not.

Having MS certify apps? You're kidding right? Remember in Win Mo 5.0? How many apps in certain device couldn't/ wouldn't even install since they weren't digitally signed or certified? Here we go again! (http://dukelupus.wordpress.com/2008/07/10/silent-installation-to-windows-mobile-5-and-6-security-question/)

acharn
07-16-2008, 02:21 PM
I've been a WM fan for many years. I had a smartphone before anyone knew what a smartphone was. I showed off my phone to others and even spent countless hours formatting movies to play on my devices, just to say I did.
But all that has changed with the iPhone. I took the leap and bought one this past week, and I am sad to say, I don't regret the decision at all. In fact, it's like drinking a cool glass of water when you've been walking in the desert for a long time. I never thought I'd see a phone/computer so insanely easy to use and look so good.
I hope Microsoft reimagines WM, but I dare say that they won't.