The Fool Still Doubts The Zune

[David Tucker]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.fool.com/investing/value/2008/05/06/leaving-so-zune.aspx' target='_blank'>http://www.fool.com/investing/value...ng-so-zune.aspx</a><br /><br /></div><em>&ldquo;Walk away from the Zune, Microsoft. There are only two scenarios in which I can see this as a battle worth fighting: one, if this is the platform that will be used to take on your video-game console rivals in the portable handheld market; or two, if it will bring something new to the wireless communications space. If the Zune is going to evolve into the next DS or PSP, blessed with a ton more storage capacity, great. If this is going to be a cell phone, in a brazen attempt to take on the iPhone, at least you have a strong enough mobile-operating-system pedigree to have a shot.&rdquo;<br /></em><br />I&rsquo;m sure that <a href="http://www.fool.com/investing/value/2008/05/06/leaving-so-zune.aspx">Rick Munarriz over at The Motley Fool</a> generally knows what he&rsquo;s talking about (and with a middle name like &ldquo;Aristotle&rdquo; I would hope so!) but I&rsquo;m going to have to respectfully disagree with him here. For one thing, he compares Zune sales to Sansa sales in his article. That&rsquo;s like comparing Vaio sales to an eMachine. Not really the same class of device. Sandisk crashed the market with low end players when it came in. Microsoft is taking a long term approach with quality.<br /><br />His other argument was that Apple&rsquo;s iPod sales stalled; therefore, Microsoft missed the boat because the market isn&rsquo;t growing. I have to wonder how exactly that analysis works out. If Apple sold 10 million players in Q1 and 10 million players in Q2, it sounds to me like the market grew by about 10 million people. Unless he really thinks those were all the same people! I&rsquo;d say this is still a booming market. There are a lot of people who don&rsquo;t own MP3 players still and this market will continue to grow and evolve. Microsoft doesn&rsquo;t need to go anywhere and I don&rsquo;t think they plan to.

[txa1265]

Your analysis is completely right, and it is amazing how many smart people are talking stupid about this. Stalled *sales growth* and stalled *sales* are two VERY different things.

[inteller]

I think you are REALLY discounting the Sansa. Zune is better "quality"? Let's talk about that quality for a sec. The Sansa supports Asian character sets.....Zune? Yeah right. I also noticed the Sansa supports wi-fi now....so much for that feather in Microsoft's hat. Thirdly, you can buy a Sansa in just about any country you want AND be able to put music on it (Canada...oh wait no music store!)

Microsoft has proven to me that Zune is really just a bunch of marketing hacks with no ability to execute on technical vision. You can talk about "social" all you want but its really just a big vision that is unattainable because they lack the programming knowhow to make it happen.

[Jason Dunn]

I think you are REALLY discounting the Sansa. Zune is better "quality"? Let's talk about that quality for a sec. The Sansa supports Asian character sets.....Zune? Yeah right.

I have a Sansa Clip, and while it's a fine little device and does what it was meant to do, there's really nothing particularly impressive about it - and I sure as heck don't like using Windows Media Player 11 to load it up (it felt backward compared to the Zune software). Asian character sets don't matter to me, but if that's critical to you, then it's good that SanDisk has you covered. :)

Microsoft has proven to me that Zune is really just a bunch of marketing hacks with no ability to execute on technical vision. You can talk about "social" all you want but its really just a big vision that is unattainable because they lack the programming knowhow to make it happen.

I'm curious then - what other MP3 player on the market today has anything like the Zune social/cards/sharing stuff? Have you seen the 2.5 update yet? It's quite impressive with the updates for the social aspects.

[Janak Parekh]

I have a Sansa Clip, and while it's a fine little device and does what it was meant to do, there's really nothing particularly impressive about it - and I sure as heck don't like using Windows Media Player 11 to load it up (it felt backward compared to the Zune software). Asian character sets don't matter to me, but if that's critical to you, then it's good that SanDisk has you covered. :) How about the Sansa Connect? That still seems to be the only device on the market that bothers to use its integrated WiFi in any useful way. Even Apple only has the a-la-carte store over WiFi, and the Zune, well... the WiFi sync was nice, but when are they going to truly take advantage of their existing subscription system? :(

--janak

[David Tucker]

I still think WiFi for use of anything outside your home is pretty limited in its usefulness (ie...a store)

99% of the time I'm not anywhere that I could get any use from that.

[Jason Dunn]

I still think WiFi for use of anything outside your home is pretty limited in its usefulness (ie...a store)

Yeah, I agree. I like that the SanDisk people have pushed into some interesting territory with the Sansa, but I haven't seen anything on it that makes me go "Wow, I totally need that!". Maybe when we have WiMax everywhere and devices can use it we'll see more "wide area" scenarios made possible.

[Janak Parekh]

I still think WiFi for use of anything outside your home is pretty limited in its usefulness (ie...a store) Well, I disagree with you. I have blanket WiFi access at work, and had blanket WiFi at my university. The latter is a nontrivial market. :)

(Plus there's plenty of open WiFi networks around here. University aside, my perception may be colored by NYC, a far more pedestrian (and dense) environment.)

--janak

[Stinger]

His other argument was that Apple’s iPod sales stalled; therefore, Microsoft missed the boat because the market isn’t growing. I have to wonder how exactly that analysis works out. If Apple sold 10 million players in Q1 and 10 million players in Q2, it sounds to me like the market grew by about 10 million people.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Who here is still using the first mp3 player they ever bought? From anecdotal evidence, I'd say that the average iPod user upgrades their iPod every two years. There's a lot of replacement players in that figure of 10 million, even if they're not all replacement devices.

There's certainly reason to suggest that the market is saturated in western markets.

[David Tucker]

Oh, yeah, don't take that to mean I think this is the same market it was a few years ago. When sales growth slows its much harder to break in, which is where we're at now. But I think that there's still a lot of new customers in there. I can't go by MY personal use of MP3 players since its not the norm. In 3 years I've gone through 3 MP3 players (iRiver T10, Zune 30 and currently my Zune 80)

But most of my friends who have their MP3 players have had them a while. My friends with Nanos that I can think of have had them 2 or 3 years. I know people with iPods that have had them longer than 3 years. People with non iPod players have all had them a while.

[inteller]

I'm curious then - what other MP3 player on the market today has anything like the Zune social/cards/sharing stuff? Have you seen the 2.5 update yet? It's quite impressive with the updates for the social aspects.

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

listen, there are PLENTY of website forums where I can get "social" or read an XML stream to build a stupid playlist card. That crap is pure marketing fluff....which fails miserably if there is no one else around you to be "social" with. When was the last time you shared a song from your zune with a stranger? The "Social" should have been an open ended framework that other vendor devices could have participated in....I bet the only place the "social" lives up to its name are highly dense areas like new York Metro where you MIGHT bump into someone else using a Zune.

When you set out to compete in a market, do some basic research and find the benchmarks your device needs to have. The Social is an answer to a question no one asked. However, BASIC UNICODE SUPPORT should have been a requirement. It is dumbfounding coming from a company that stresses Unicode support in its software.

[Lotheric]

I went through a Rio Volt and an iRiver iFP-790 and now I'm looking to buy a Zune 80 in june...

[Adam Krebs]

When was the last time you shared a song from your zune with a stranger?

Just last week, actually. Maybe I have the advantage of being in a densely populated area, but I actually think it's kind of cool. Sure it's a gimmick, but the player is solid, and the wireless/Social experience is fun. As long as future updates don't have such a heavy reliance on Social (things with Social should be fairly modular from now on), I'll be a happy camper. If, however, they try to do to much with the service and start pumping out these acheivements (focusing less on the fun aspect and making it more of a competition to see who as the coolest music), then we'll have some problems.

But let's not talk about standards. Have you ever tried to minimize a whole bunch of windows at once in Vista? 9 times out of 10 I accidentally hit the (?) button on the Zune software because they stupidly placed it in the exact same position as the standard minimize button. That said, Unicode is a must, and it can't come soon (Zune?) enough.

P.S. 200th Post!

[David Tucker]

I have plenty of anime soundtracks on my Zune while it'd be nice if the text rendered correctly...that one definitely isn't at the top of my list of things I care about.

[yslee]

I have a Sansa Clip, and while it's a fine little device and does what it was meant to do, there's really nothing particularly impressive about it -

Heh, I see not many audiophiles visit this site, else you'd have been chewed out for that comment. The Clip has been lapped up by them as one of the best players for sound quality. Of course I personally think they take things too far...

[Jason Dunn]

But most of my friends who have their MP3 players have had them a while. My friends with Nanos that I can think of have had them 2 or 3 years. I know people with iPods that have had them longer than 3 years. People with non iPod players have all had them a while.

Really? I thought Steve Jobs had all iPods designed with built-in hardware failures that happen one week after the warranty expires, combined with the release of a nerve gas agent that compels the user to purchase another iPod. :D:D:D

[David Tucker]

My brother may be subject to that nervegas agent. I didn't count him because he went from an iPod to an iPhone. :p

[Jason Dunn]

Heh, I see not many audiophiles visit this site, else you'd have been chewed out for that comment. The Clip has been lapped up by them as one of the best players for sound quality.

Well, I've heard that same thing about Audiophiles and the Zune, so if I have the Clip and the Zune, and both have great audio, I don't know what bad audio sounds like to compare it to. :D

[Janak Parekh]

Sure you do. Some of the Pocket PCs we've owned have terrible audio. ;) The HTC Space Needle and the Treo 700w were amongst the worst...

--janak

[Jason Dunn]

Sure you do. Some of the Pocket PCs we've owned have terrible audio. ;) The HTC Space Needle and the Treo 700w were amongst the worst...

Ask me when the last time I used a Pocket PC or Smartphone to listen to music was...I haven't done that in over three years.

[Jason Dunn]

listen, there are PLENTY of website forums where I can get "social" or read an XML stream to build a stupid playlist card. That crap is pure marketing fluff....which fails miserably if there is no one else around you to be "social" with. When was the last time you shared a song from your zune with a stranger?

Yeah, I understand the problems with building a network from scratch (http://www.zunethoughts.com/news/show/134/zune-networking-the-rough-road-ahead.html) - and I think the Zune team does too. But it has to start somewhere. I've just spent the last 10 minutes in vain searching for an article I wrote on this site about how the Zune wireless sharing feature is largely misunderstood, but I can't find it. <sigh> The short version is that WiFi song sharing is like any other social activity - you're not going to do it with a random stranger. You'll share songs with your friends when you're hanging out with them - and that's exactly what I've done with my friend who has a Zune many times.

When you set out to compete in a market, do some basic research and find the benchmarks your device needs to have. The Social is an answer to a question no one asked. However, BASIC UNICODE SUPPORT should have been a requirement.

Ok, so pretend you're Microsoft and you have enough resources for one last feature - you know you're only releasing the Zune officially in the United States...so do you spend your resources on Unicode support for the incredibly small number of people who live in the US but are connected with music from other cultures with languages that require unicode support?

Or do you spend it adding a wireless sharing feature that, even if rough around the edges and not terribly useful from day one, give you a unique selling point? I think you know the answer to that.

[yslee]

Well, I've heard that same thing about Audiophiles and the Zune, so if I have the Clip and the Zune, and both have great audio, I don't know what bad audio sounds like to compare it to. :D

What? No no no, the Sony A600 and A800s are now their latest darling. Zune what? :P

[Jason Dunn]

What? No no no, the Sony A600 and A800s are now their latest darling. Zune what? :P

Those fickle audiophiles - always changing their minds. :rolleyes: