The Day The MSN Music Died [Archive]

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Jason Dunn

05-06-2008, 09:25 AM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9931304-7.html?tag=newsmap' target='_blank'>http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-99...tml?tag=newsmap</a> </div><img hspace="5" border="1" align="left" alt="" src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com/resizer/thumbs/size/500/dht/auto/1210042090.usr1.jpg" />"The Electronic Frontier Foundation says that Microsoft has "betrayed" MSN Music customers and wants the company to make things right by issuing an apology, refunds, and eliminate digital rights management technology from the Zune music player. Microsoft stirred some controversy last week by announcing that it would no longer issue DRM keys for defunct MSN Music after August 31. This effectively will prevent former customers from transferring their songs to new devices after the deadline. Customers could potentially lose their music if they get a new computer or if the hard drive crashes on their current one. EFF, an advocacy group for Internet users, said in a statement that it sent a letter to Microsoft Chief Executive Officer Steve Ballmer on Tuesday outlining steps the company should take, such as issuing refunds and launching a publicity campaign to educate former MSN Music customers about their options." The above quote speaks for itself - for my own opinions on this topic, I'll refer you to a collection of comments that I posted in a private forum where this issue was being discussed: <ul> <li>"Sadly, that's the great hoax of DRM - you think you "own" the music, because you probably paid just as much for the digital album as the CD, but what you really bought was limited-usage rights to listen to that music until the company in question decides they don't want you to be able to listen to it anymore."</li> <li>[Responding to a question wondering why people were upset] "You can't understand how someone, thinking that when they bought their Creative Zen Vision and bought $200 or more in music over a period of years wouldn't be COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY PISSED OFF to be told that their music they bought is forever tied to their computer, never to be transferred or activated again? Microsoft does make legitimate, bone-headed mistakes sometimes, and this is one of them."</li> <li>[Responding to a question] "You and I know that, and so should John but the average person does not. They don't understand DRM, or care to understand it. You know what they'll understand now? That MSN Music, and Microsoft, completely screwed them over. This move by Microsoft is completely idiotic and will push even more people to the iTunes model (even though their normal DRM is just as bad, if not worse) or turn people off purchasing music in digital form."</li> <li>"...how realistic is that to tell an average consumer "Hey, that computer you're using? It's the only thing that will be able to play your music, forever. Better make sure it doesn't break down!" That's completely ridiculous and utterly unrealistic." <MORE /></li> <li>"MSN Music is the vendor that told the music, they're responsible for what they do to their customers. If Microsoft *really* wanted to make this right, they'd give people transfer credits to get the same tracks on the Zune Marketplace. But they don't care because they're not Apple - MSN Music only had a small piece of the pie, and they know they can screw over MSN Music customers and get away with it."</li> <li>"See if you can use <a target="_blank" href="http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=114916">FairUse4WM to strip the DRM</a>. If that doesn't work, go the burn and re-rip route. It's a pain in the ass and slow, but because MSN Music sold 160 kbps WMA files, the quality is really high and re-ripping to 192 kbps MP3 should allow you to retain most of the quality. You can't restore bits that aren't there to begin with, but a 160 kbps WMA is roughly the same quality as a 256 kbps MP3 (my purely subjective opinion), so a 192 kbps MP3 should do the trick. I do not support piracy or IP theft in *any* way, but when a big company tries to screw over the rights of their customers, the customer has to protect themselves."</li> <li>[Responding to the comparison of  people expecting Microsoft to continue to support Windows 98] "Completely the wrong analogy and it seems to indicate to me that you don't really understand the issue here. Windows 98 doesn't require product activation that, if you can't activate, you can't use the OS. Supporting an OS with patches and updates is completely different from stopping someone from using the OS. Yes, this might be an issue with Vista if, five years from now, Microsoft says they'll no longer activate Vista. But even then, it's not the same, because it's unlikely someone would take an old OS and put it on a new computer...operating systems get dated, and people move on. Not so with music. I refuse to believe that keeping a few activation servers online to hand our DRM tokens would be an overly expensive proposition. Yes, the root blame in all this is the entertainment companies for requiring DRM in the first place, but it's MSN Music (Microsoft) that's making the decision to (sooner or later) destroy the music collections of their customers. The onus for this decision is on Microsoft's head."</li> <li>[Responding to the comparison of this to HD-DVD being discontinued] "Another completely wrong analogy. HD-DVD is a new *format* of next-gen DVD. There's nothing "next-gen" or unique about MSN Music WMA tracks - your analogy would only work if Microsoft somehow removed every software player that played WMA files out there, or more accurately, removed the ability to play WMA files from future versions of Windows, removed WMP from download sites, and said "Ok, if you want to play WMA files you have to keep using the computer you're on now...forever." And as long as there are HD-DVD drives on the market (and you know there will be used units available for years and years), you can play your content. It's not like HD-DVD has an online activation component that, now that the format is dead, would stop working. It's absolutely not the same issue in any way, shape, or form.</li></ul>So, any questions on how I feel about this move by MSN Music?

David Tucker

05-06-2008, 04:53 PM

ptyork

05-06-2008, 06:16 PM

Thing is...Microsoft is giving people months of notice. They also told people how to remove the DRM if they choose by burning & ripping. The only thing that this move does is provide an inconvenience to people. But its a much lesser inconvenience than when tapes went to cd, imo. The argument that if someone's computer crashes then they're SOL is pointless. You could own a CD and step on it and have the same problem.

The solution in BOTH cases is the same...make backups. Nothing is keeping people from backing up their music so I guess I fail to see the issue. The DRM isn't so draconian to prevent the music being used pretty much until someone deletes it by accident.

I'm not a fan of this argument at all. When moving from tapes to cd's you have a choice. You can STILL buy tape players if yours breaks and the tapes you have will function. If your computer breaks, you're SOL. Burning and ripping is lossy and requires that the average user be above average in technical prowess in order to retain the music that they purportedly own. And the step on a CD argument is completely invalid. You can be careful with your tapes and CD's and never have a problem. You can be careful with your PC and still lose everything due to a hard disk crash that is not your fault.

To me this is the fundamental problem with DRM. Microsoft should have provided either 1) a way to strip the DRM entirely in a way that was easy for my grandmother to do, 2) automatically "
"purchase" and distribute the DRM'd songs to a replacement service, or 3) maintain the authorization services indefinitely.

Note that this problem is much more pronounced for other media types. Especially e-books. I got royally screwed by Amazon when I purchased a PDF--based book from them and have subsequently lost all access to the book because they stopped supporting the unlock. I'll never buy another e-book again. I'm also sitting on another potential disaster related to my 100's of Audible.com e-audiobooks should Amazon decide to do some major plumbing changes to Audible now that they have purchased them. I'm still looking for a viable means of stripping the DRM from these. Caveat emptor, I suppose, but to me a few more high profile screw-jobs like this will DESTROY electronic distribution of purchases for years to come.

PS - Incidentally, does anyone know of a way of ripping and burning that doesn't require a physical CD-R? I'm thinking of a virtual CD-R drive that records to an ISO that can then be mounted and re-burned all without having to deal with physical media. It seems like this would be a good method of automating the DRM removal, and although lossy, might be simplified to the point of grandmotherly usage.

David Tucker

05-06-2008, 06:22 PM

Not true though. CDs are susceptible to 'just dying' same as anything else. (Its happened to me many times) I just don't believe its the responsibility of the person you purchased the music from to make sure you never lose it. I find it very unlikely that people who are technically incapable of creating a backup CD are buying digital music either.

Janak Parekh

05-06-2008, 06:36 PM

Not true though. CDs are susceptible to 'just dying' same as anything else. (Its happened to me many times) That analogy still doesn't fly:

1. CDs, properly preserved, can last 30+ years. I have yet to lose a single music CD, i.e., since I started buying them 15 years ago. It's worth pointing out that I ripped the majority of them years ago, so I don't play them as much -- heavy play will cause holes to form in the CD -- but with proper care it is definitely possible to make them last.

2. You can trivially make an exact, bit-for-bit, DRM-free copy of a CD. You can't do that with MSN Music. Either it's gotta live on CD forever, or there's quality loss if you rerip.

I just don't believe its the responsibility of the person you purchased the music from to make sure you never lose it. Wait, what? Let's say I am a good citizen, back up my digital music tracks and my licenses, etc. Then I want to reinstall or replace my computer. Well, I can't in this scenario, unless what you're saying is that I'm obligated to make CD backups of everything. That's a really lame solution. With iTunes, I merely backup the audio tracks (there's no way I'm going to burn all those CDs), and I'm done.

I find it very unlikely that people who are technically incapable of creating a backup CD are buying digital music either. Well, that's a debatable point, but keep in mind that, even for the technically savvy, it's a lot more work. Unbelievable amounts of work if you consider both the burn and rip cycles. I remember you saying that you don't own a lot of tracks/CDs, and that you use the Zune subscription stuff. You have to understand, though, that for people who own all these tracks, you're making them go through a lot of hoops.

Look -- Microsoft isn't being illegal here, and one can debate whether they're in the wrong or not. But consumers who used the service are not going to have a good feeling about it. And it definitely won't convince people that Microsoft "PlaysForSure" is indeed, playing for sure.

--janak

David Tucker

05-06-2008, 07:14 PM

Janak Parekh

05-06-2008, 07:25 PM

I think the best solution would have been for Microsoft to transfer the licenses to a Zune marketplace license in the interest of customer relations. But there are probably reasons they couldn't do that (or anything else) Then they should be open and discuss those reasons. Why be like Apple and super-secretive? ;)

Its somewhat moot as DRM free music is becoming more common. Well, I think most of us that post here probably buy from Amazon MP3 now. That's not the problem in this case -- it's the existing music that was bought.

Believe me, I'll be thrilled when we don't need to worry about this crap anymore. We're not quite there yet.

--janak

Jason Dunn

05-06-2008, 10:59 PM

Thing is...Microsoft is giving people months of notice. They also told people how to remove the DRM if they choose by burning & ripping.

Burning and ripping is a manual, slow process, that results in a drop in quality. I've done it with MSN Music, and the results are OK, but why should customers have to jump through hoops like that?

The argument that if someone's computer crashes then they're SOL is pointless. You could own a CD and step on it and have the same problem.

I don't know how often you step on your CDs, but I've had more hard drives fail or operating systems get corrupted than I've had CDs get stepped on. I have CDs that are 10+ years old...I have no computers that old.

The solution in BOTH cases is the same...make backups. Nothing is keeping people from backing up their music so I guess I fail to see the issue. The DRM isn't so draconian to prevent the music being used pretty much until someone deletes it by accident.

Umm...It think maybe you misunderstand the issue. :confused: A backup will not help in this instance. Their DRM servers are shutting down, so let's say you back up your MSN Music, a year from now your PC crashes and you have to re-load Windows or get a new PC. You transfer the MSN Music from your backup onto the new PC...and it doesn't work because the DRM servers no longer exist. Your music will NEVER work again. That's the root of the problem.

Jason Dunn

05-06-2008, 11:24 PM

Not true though. CDs are susceptible to 'just dying' same as anything else. (Its happened to me many times)

Who are you, Mr. Edward Sandpaperhands? :D I've never had a CD just stop working - I believe you when you say you have, but I don't know if it's as common as you think it is...

I just don't believe its the responsibility of the person you purchased the music from to make sure you never lose it.

You're stuck on this backup thing - it's more like you buy a CD, you put it on your shelf, but once a month when you want to play it you have to dial a 1-800 number to get the password to open the CD case. Then the 1-800 number goes out of business. You have the CD, you know the music is there...but you can't play it. Does that seem fair to you?

Jason Dunn

05-06-2008, 11:26 PM

I think the best solution would have been for Microsoft to transfer the licenses to a Zune marketplace license in the interest of customer relations.

I agree, that would be a nice solution - even if it's Zune DRM'd content, at least they'd still get to keep their music...for a while at least. :rolleyes:

Phillip Dyson

05-06-2008, 11:40 PM

I agree, that would be a nice solution - even if it's Zune DRM'd content, at least they'd still get to keep their music...for a while at least. :rolleyes:

But if people were using MSN, isn't it likely that they don't have Zunes?

Jason Dunn

05-06-2008, 11:45 PM

But if people were using MSN, isn't it likely that they don't have Zunes?

Yeah, that's the Catch-22...but at least they can play it on their computer, if not their mobile player. I guess the best solution would be for Microsoft to purchase credits that the MSN Music users could use at Rhapsody or another PlaysForSure partner.