Merits of iPhone vs PPC

[Cybrid]

This is a split off from another thread found here:
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=450043#450043

Rather than hijack a thread, I figure lets get an open discussion here instead.

Cybrid, do you really think an iPHONE has not been truly innovative? What Pocket PC competes with it that can be bought new today for $300? Can the average college grad set up a Pocket PC on their wireless network at home? The iPHONE is easier in many areas. My point is that WM & Palm would be smart to learn from the strengths Apple has instead of attacking the weaknesses. As I read your post, it appears you think WM is superior in every way to the iPHONE which seems awful one sided.
Mikey, lets start a list of questions within the post. I'll answer them one at a time.

do you really think an iPHONE has not been truly innovative?

It does have some innovative aspects. I did concede that the use of an accelerometer was innovative. So is the scratch resistant glass. Those touches were brilliant. Are they worth a crippled BT stack? The lack of a memory slot? The lack of 3rd party apps. Yes, I know there's an SDK coming but I also hear "unsigned" apps won't work...So no freeware, no apps unless "approved by Jobs".

Case in point: At my work, we do on-site digital photo development. Several times a day, we get "Can you print this picture off of my phone?"
My Photolab PC's support all memory cards, BT, irDA, USB, DVD, CD. No email or internet access, sorry. What if you managed to get a picture of a hit and run car?
Are you going to go home and transfer your pictures to a cd, then come back? Where's the ease of use?

What Pocket PC competes with it that can be bought new today for $300?

The iPhone is $300 + NEW 3yr contract. The HTC Touch? $99 + 3yr , paid $70 for my 8Gb card. $130 saved buys more. A BT GPS for one ;)

Can the average college grad set up a Pocket PC on their wireless network at home?
I haven't even seen the inside of a college classroom. I did finish high school...barely. 8O
There quite a few kid PPC'ers out there. Are you admitting we are smarter than y'all? ;)
The iPHONE is easier in many areas.
Yeah? Anyone?... feel free to point out some examples. Mean time, hurry home and burn those pics to a CD for me. Clocks ticking!
My point is that WM & Palm would be smart to learn from the strengths Apple has instead of attacking the weaknesses. Yes! Similarly Apple should have capitalized on WM's flaws and not turned some of those strengths into their own weaknesses.
Apple would have won me over easily with a complete BT stack or an IO slot and the ability to run whatever app I wanted.
Oh! A co-worker mentioned getting a refusal warning in iTunes which steadfastly resisted attempts to convert a DVD to her iPod. This due to DRM. Ease of use? show me!
As I read your post, it appears you think WM is superior in every way to the iPHONE which seems awful one sided.
I don't but if someone were willing to point out one thing...one thing...that iPhone does that was just...gosh darn it...amazing...I'd think about it.

[Sven Johannsen]

I can think of one thing the iPhone does that is truely amazing. It makes folks that would normally never consider it, part with $300 and lock themselves in with AT&T for 3 years at $60+ a month. Hasn't been that long ago you could get a decent used car for those 'payments'.

Actually the only thing that really impresses me is the size of the device. Of course if you don't have to handle memory slots, removable batteries, buttons, keyboard, stylus silo (?) you can cut down on the volume.

There really isn't anything the iPhone does that I can't do with WM, and have been able to for some time. As far as ease of use...Apple has always been excellent at that aspect, but always at the expense of flexibility. If you control every aspect, it is easier to integrate things. I have nothing at all against Apple, BTW, spent 5-6 years as an Apple User Group president in the past.

As far as the college grad goes..I would expect that any college grad that set up their home WiFi network could probably get their WM device working on it. I turn on WiFi, it offers me networks to join, and prompts for a key if required, when I pick one. Works that way at the coffeee shop too. Is the iPhone somehow simpler than that, or are college grads somehow less competent today than they were when I graduated. Reality is that I rarely turn on WiFi. With HSPDA on my WM phone, I can get throughput that is perfectly acceptable without having to hunt up a hotspot. The iPhone isn't exactly state-of-the-art when it comes to wireless data connectivity is it.

[r@dimus]

I think the issues are a bit bigger than iPhone vs PPC. This article is of interest:

http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/02/06/Apple-beats-Microsoft-Motorola-in-phone-sales_1.html

To summarize it, in the US market Apple single-handedly pushed WM to third place by the end of 2007. RIM finished the year with 41% of the US market, Apple with 28%, and WM with 21%. Another source I found mentioned that Palm holds the remaining 9%. So think about that for a minute. Two companies have, on their own and from scratch, push Microsoft, HTC, HP, and company to third place. Love them or hate them, that says something. We can banter on about why we think the PPC is better than the iPhone or whatever, but I think its is of interest to look at this and see where the market is headed.

For example, 70% of the market has decided that they like Blackberries and iPhones. What do these customers tell us? Here's my thoughts:

- They don't want to be bothered with a styuls.
- They prefer an icon based homescreen and don't care about something like WM's Today.
- They don't care about the fact that they cannot drastically customize their device with third party apps and such.
- They want devices that they perceive are simple to use and stable.

Personally, I think Microsoft really needs to get on the ball here or risk seeing WM become another bit player like Palm has become. From what I've seen of the WM 7 screenshots it looks like they are working on that, but I think more needs to be done. There seems to be a looming perception that WM is unstable and slow, and quite frankly I don't think the reputation is completely undeserved. I have a Tilt, and from my experience it pauses and hangs a whole lot more than any PPC I have ever had. My Dell Axim x51V is much faster and way more responsive, and it's pushing 4x the pixels with a VGA screen. My Tilt's CPU is 224Mhz slower, but with only a QVGA screen and twice the system RAM of my Dell there is no excuse for it's performance. Even my wife's old HP 4150 runs circles around the Tilt. HTC should have never allowed the Tilt to go to market like this, and if the device makers are not going to take the time to release properly functioning devices than Microsoft needs to hold them to doing so.

Is the iPhone more stable than WM? Probably, but then that's easy to achieve when you have complete control over what apps are available for it. Once the SDK is out that could all change. Is the Blackberry? In truth, I doubt it, but it's perceived as such. I've had several, and Blackberries tend to tend to be fairly stable when all you ask of them is PIM, phone, and email. Starting adding third party apps and using the web browser a lot and you can end up with a BB that hangs on occasion and needs a reset evey few days. However, most Blackberries are tied to BES and a lot of those probably have IT policies that prevent the installation of third party apps among other restricitons.

In short, I think WM is at a turning point. Microsoft either needs to pull out all the stops and do this right or just take their ball and go home.

[schmenge]

To summarize it, in the US market Apple single-handedly pushed WM to third place by the end of 2007. RIM finished the year with 41% of the US market, Apple with 28%, and WM with 21%. Another source I found mentioned that Palm holds the remaining 9%. So think about that for a minute. Two companies have, on their own and from scratch, push Microsoft, HTC, HP, and company to third place. Love them or hate them, that says something. We can banter on about why we think the PPC is better than the iPhone or whatever, but I think its is of interest to look at this and see where the market is headed.

My guess is that MS lost very little business, but that Apple dramatically grew the market. That's what the iPod did to MP3 players. I'm amazed how many people ask me what the difference is between their iPod and a MP3 player. Not that not losing business is no cause for concern for MS, it should be.



- They don't want to be bothered with a stylus.
- They prefer an icon based homescreen and don't care about something like WM's Today.
- They don't care about the fact that they cannot drastically customize their device with third party apps and such.
- They want devices that they perceive are simple to use and stable.


Personally, I don't think many people care about the stylus one way or the other. I do think the third point is the big one. The bulk of users just don't care about other apps and tweaking. They got their device for some purpose, want it to do that and to do that well (making stable pretty important as well).


In short, I think WM is at a turning point. Microsoft either needs to pull out all the stops and do this right or just take their ball and go home.

I agree. People ask me all the time when they see me on my 8125 "Is that a Blackberry?" BB is almost synonymous with wireless handhelds for a lot of people. iPod is synonymous with MP3 and I am sure that is where Apple wants to go with iPhone. MS will need to move faster than the speed of Vista. :)

[r@dimus]

I think you're right about Apple growing the market. I seem to recall an article where it was stated that most iPhone buyers had never owned a smartphone before.

[Cybrid]

I can think of one thing the iPhone does that is truely amazing. It makes folks that would normally never consider it, part with $300 and lock themselves in with AT&T for 3 years at $60+ a month. This mainly because of a marketing blitz which made it "cool". An iPhone? you're cool. A WM device? you're a geek. A RIM*berry? You're middle management. Sigh.


Actually the only thing that really impresses me is the size of the device. Of course if you don't have to handle memory slots, removable batteries, buttons, keyboard, stylus silo (?) you can cut down on the volume. Yes, I think silo is correct. It's not much smaller than the X50's but the rounded edges are very slimming.


There really isn't anything the iPhone does that I can't do with WM, and have been able to for some time. As far as ease of use...Apple has always been excellent at that aspect, but always at the expense of flexibility. If you control every aspect, it is easier to integrate things. I have nothing at all against Apple, BTW, spent 5-6 years as an Apple User Group president in the past. Exactly. I'll elaborate on this next post.


Is the iPhone somehow simpler than that, or are college grads somehow less competent today than they were when I graduated. As a person with hiring/ firing responsibility...I'd say yes, they actually are far less competent.


The iPhone isn't exactly state-of-the-art when it comes to wireless data connectivity is it.On the thread it split off from. One user did mention EDGE...made me laugh.

...Article...Apple beats...WM, Moto... I think that article is misleading. I think it meant sales in Q4 2007 rather than iPhone vs. all WM phone devices total.
However, even assuming that iPhone reaches the domination Apple has in the MP3 player market. Who cares? They are still not getting my money for a product that is in reality a half backed prototype. To paraphrase a recent PPCT article re: iPhone development. "Mr. Jobs, you still don't have a product"

[Cybrid]

The iPhone doesn't have BT. *Perhaps this might change if they add a few profiles and don't bugger their stack.
iPhone supports exactly 2 profiles. You can connect headsets only, and mono-aural at that only.
The whole 8Gb, iPhone media player, cover flow, blah blah was to play media. Music! Video! Wow! but you'll need your wired headset. Which essentially negates the need for having even those two profiles. Would a user carry both? or use it as a phone only. So the # of BT users on iPhone is effectively 0. Sorry Apple fans, BT is too much powerful mojo for you. Ok. I think that covers their BT. Similarily, you can extrapolate on the Camera, using post one of this thread.
Video needs restatement: With the select few codecs/ file containers Jobs has decided to support...How is that a superior media player? YouTube converted their entire repository from .FLV flash* whatevers to RTSP for this. Jobs has charisma and big Cojones I'll give him that. Add to that the iTune DRM related DVD conversion fiasco, how useful is that? In fairness were it not for TCPMP, this would be a tie. Ideally a user shouldn't have to convert a single thing. It should play.
If conversion is needed, easily done and quick would be nice. Like Fair Use Wizard 2 and TCPMP. Convert, Transfer and Play. I'm not going to purchase multiple copies of a movie. Bleep the DRM groups. Undoubtedly, some one is going to point out but the iPhone media player has this or that GUI enhancement...If that was superiority then WM Media players prettier GUI makes it superior to TCPMP. That ain't so. :roll:

A computer to me is a device that helps manage, process, store data. PIM, Music, Video, Everything is all data. All little bits making up the Gigabytes of my life's trivia. A WM PDA, Smartphone is a mobile extension of that data management. An iPhone isn't.

[Russ Smith]

Just an amplification of what others have said in detail:

The iPhone _appears_ simple when you consider what it does out of the box and compare that to doing the same thing on a PPC. However, the PPC adds functionality in nearly every dimension. The more you want to do, the better a PPC looks.

The iPhone is exactly the way Steve Jobs wants it to be. My PPC is a lot more like I want it to be.

[Cybrid]

There seems to be a looming perception that WM is unstable and slow, and quite frankly I don't think the reputation is completely undeserved. I have a Tilt, and from my experience it pauses and hangs a whole lot more than any PPC I have ever had... Even my wife's old HP 4150 runs circles around the Tilt. HTC should have never allowed the Tilt to go to market like this... Stock Tilt? or perhaps an app not playing nice. I haven't had a single lockup or need to soft reset my Touch yet. Perhaps the Tilt's a lemon.

Is the iPhone more stable than WM? Probably, but then that's easy to achieve when you have complete control over what apps are available for it. Once the SDK is out that could all change.
Objection, facts not entered into evidence ;) You may be right but we have nothing to support it other than anecdotes. Those wafting in the fragrances of the iFart haven't given any indications they are willing to argue this yet.

Is the Blackberry? In truth, I doubt it, but it's perceived as such. It's not and even a few minutes is enough to demonstrate how uselessly outdated they've become.

[Cybrid]

The iPhone _appears_ simple.
The iPhone is exactly the way Steve Jobs wants it to be. My PPC is a lot more like I want it to be.Exactly. Jobs' smoke and mirror trick seem innocent enough but here's a product that no where near lives up to its promise and everyone "Oohs and Aahs" all over it.
Remember Verizon crippling BT stacks? Out came the pitchforks.
Dell X50v's WM5 leaving broadcomm BT for MS. MS's BT not being capable of A2DP? Out came the torches.
iPhone? I can't even elicit a sheep like "baaa".
How iPhone users/ supporters suddenly became scarce?

All in all, you are right. It's about who controls your data. You or Jobs.

[whydidnt]

This debate really centers on what you want to do with your device. If you simply want a decent phone with a great web browser and media player the iPhone is simply a better device than any WM device out there. Find me a WM device with 32 GB of storage, a HVGA screen, Internet Browser that actually works and fits nicely in the palm of your hand. It doesn't exist. I think there are many people who find that's what they are looking for.

WM obviously provides more flexibility, but the OEM's cranking out hardware have been stuck in 2002 for last 5 years. The difference in the Safari browser and PIE would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Today, there is not a SINGLE browser available for WM that provides near the experience Safari does on the iPhone or Touch. Opera Mini comes closest, but that relies on a third party server. Perhaps the forthcoming NetFront or Opera Mobile releases will bridge the gap, but until those become reality, Apple wins this battle.

I think the discussion about WM being complicated and unstable is just marketing hype carried over from Palm, who couldn't compete on features so spend years trying to pain WM as complicated and unstable. My experience just doesn't fit that. And PLEASE, whoever said connecting to WiFi with WM is difficult has serious issues. Turn on WiFi, say yes you want to connect, enter key and you are connected. It's about as identical to the process on the iPhone or Touch as you can get and shows the power of marketing.

One other thing, I think this was posted on PocketNow previously -- about the intuitiveness of the iPhone. It's really not as "easy and intuitive" as we are led to believe, however, we've all been trained by the commercials. If you'd never seen a commercial and just turned it on, you probably wouldn't find it near as easy to use as everyone that drinks the kool-aid is led to believe. For example, how do you change the volume? There isn't a speaker icon, how do I get back to the home screen?

The lack of BT profiles on the iPhone is another real issue. I love my Motorola stereo BT headphones, but you can't use them with the iPod since they don't support the appropriate profile.

Of course, good luck getting 32 GB into our HTC touch anytime soon, oh and you still don't have a decent browser available. However, using something like AgendaOne or PocketInformant for PIM functions makes that task SO much better on the WM device. I keep waiting for a WM OEM to step up and really deliver hardware that will compliment the software, but here it is 10 years into it's life and we are STILL waiting.

[Sven Johannsen]

To add an interesting data point to this thread, there was a post on Engadget Mobile this morning, http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/02/24/google-wigged-out-by-volume-of-iphone-traffic/ The gist is that a lot of iPhone users are actually doing searches from their devices. The stats may be a bit skewed, as not all WM, or other, devices always report as to what they actually are, but the disparity in iPhone launched searches as opposed to other mobile launched searches is substantial.

Just as I find it fascinating that when Apple produced a 'converged' device, many more folks decided they had to have one, I find it interesting that they are apparently doing more than treating it as an iPod with a phone.

I postulate that it is because of the demographic that is buying iPhones is technically savvy...the internet generation..but never got the Blackberry and WM marketing. The latter two were clearly targetted at business. While those buying iPhones may be in 'business' I expect many would like to downplay that aspect of their life. Same folks probably wouldn't buy an Oldsmobile or a Buick, just because of what they represent.

[r@dimus]

Stock Tilt? or perhaps an app not playing nice. I haven't had a single lockup or need to soft reset my Touch yet. Perhaps the Tilt's a lemon.

It's more than just the Tilt, unfortunately:

http://www.htcclassaction.org/

Aside from this problem, the Tilt is very nice. I plan to stick with it for the time being and see if HTC makes good on fixing the problem. But, yes my Tilt is pretty much stock. It's running on the ROM just previous to the one that was just released, but without AT&T's "enhancements". It's not an app because it acts like this even before I install anything.

Is the Blackberry? In truth, I doubt it, but it's perceived as such. It's not and even a few minutes is enough to demonstrate how uselessly outdated they've become.

Become? The Blackberry was outdate when it launched and it's still behind the curve. RIM is just now adding features that WM has had for years.

[Cybrid]

This debate really centers on what you want to do with your device. If you simply want a decent phone with a great web browser and media player the iPhone is simply a better device than any WM device out there.
First allow me to thank you for counterpoint to my arguments. It was sorely needed. Please keep it up.

First the media player: The superior media player is one that can play anything. TCPMP or VLC are therefore superior. I mean " Media player cannot play *.wmv or *.Avi" would be just as annoying as I find "Cannot play *.mov".
The GUI is nice but really doesn't make it superior.

Yes, Safari is indeed a work of art. It is a highly capable and robust Web Client. This I gladly will concede to you. Opera Mini is closest.

Find me a WM device with 32 GB of storage, a HVGA screen, Internet Browser that actually works and fits nicely in the palm of your hand. It doesn't exist.
Not natively but that's like me saying " show me a iPhone that can accept a 32 GB CF card, VGA screen, and has USB host or TV out?" I believe the lack of IO slots is a grievious error by Apple. Advantage WM.


WM obviously provides more flexibility, but the OEM's cranking out hardware have been stuck in 2002 for last 5 years. Yes, but that could be a due to a number of things and I'd betcha a dollar that if the same hardware was introduced as a WM device. It'd die from lack of interest.
128Mb RAM
520Mhz CPU
HVGA
Camera
EDGE
Accelerometer
16 Gb but no slot.
I don't see a big "whoo hoo!"


I think the discussion about WM being complicated and unstable is just marketing hype carried over from Palm, who couldn't compete on features so spend years trying to pain WM as complicated and unstable. My experience just doesn't fit that.
Thank you for saying that. Through honest discussion, we could get a lot further.

[Cybrid]

Of course, good luck getting 32 GB into our HTC touch anytime soon, oh and you still don't have a decent browser available.
Of course, I should mention the iPhone has max 16Gb. The 32 Gb CF from newegg ($135.99) was a counter to ... " I have 16 Gb... ".
Have you noticed you used the browser 3 times in your argument?
Is that like " My pet rock is so amazing at playing dead that even if your dog can shake hands and kinda sorta play dead. The rock is better?"
Similarily I wish you luck with getting an office suite (Word, Excel, PowerPoint or Similar on your iPhone. ;)

[Cybrid]

To add an interesting data point to this thread, there was a post on Engadget Mobile this morning, http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/02/24/google-wigged-out-by-volume-of-iphone-traffic/ The gist is that a lot of iPhone users are actually doing searches from their devices. The stats may be a bit skewed, as not all WM, or other, devices always report as to what they actually are, but the disparity in iPhone launched searches as opposed to other mobile launched searches is substantial. 50 times is more than substantial. 8O Mind boggling.
In this though I wonder how much of that is true iPhone vs. iTouch? Just the same way as WM devices don't distinguish themselves in browser string agents from...well, other WM devices. Even so with a 14 million WM PIE to 2 million iSafari ratio. The disparity is huge.
I would also question the data as in rather than technically savvy, is this the "surf by Google" phenomenon? My wife likes to browse kijiji for the deals and yet cannot seem to remember the site or even wish to learn how to bookmark. She'd rather open google and type kijiji canada. She's lovely and far saner than I but Gawd! :oops:

[whydidnt]

Of course, I should mention the iPhone has max 16Gb. The 32 Gb CF from newegg ($135.99) was a counter to ... " I have 16 Gb... ".
Have you noticed you used the browser 3 times in your argument?

Similarly I wish you luck with getting an office suite (Word, Excel, PowerPoint or Similar on your iPhone. ;)

Well actually, I have an iPod Touch with 32 GB built in. But even so, today it is impossible for you to even get 16 GB of storage into your HTC touch at one time, even with removable storage. Last I saw you couldn't use that CF card in the Touch or ANY other WM phone at this point so it's a meaningless point. Almost every current WM phone has a MicroSD slot, and last I checked you are currently limited to 8 GB of storage. Only if you upsize to something like the non-converged iPaq 210 do you get a full size SDHC or CF slot.

While it is true you have more choices for video/audio formats with WM, that is only really true with third party software. The built in media player is severely limited in functionality (another bad decision on MS part IMO). It remains to be seen if that changes in Apple land when the SDK is released. However, it's not much of an issue for many of us. My music is all in MP3 format, since I know that works just about anywhere, and any video I bring along typically has to be converted to a mobile friendly format, even for use with my Tilt. I simply convert all videos to MP4 now, instead of .avi and they happily work in both devices. A vast majority of people that use these devices for video will probably find the ease of "renting" from iTunes a superior way to acquire videos, though, despite what you and I think about that value proposition.

The iPhone has a decent Word, Excel and PDF viewer, but you are correct, there isn't currently an all encompassing office suite. There is a third party app to edit word documents, and for many users, including myself that's really all I need on my mobile device. I need to view Excel docs, but don't have need to edit them, and let's be honest, the WM Excel editor has a tendency to mangle worksheets in the conversion process anyway, at least in my experience, so simply having an office suite doesn't necessarily mean it's used or usable for that matter. I also suspect that once the SDK is released we will see a full fledged office suite on the Apple devices.

Now having said all of this, don't mistake my comments. My primary mobile device is currently the AT&T Tilt - I NEED my exchange Push email. I just am extremely frustrated by the lack of innovation in the WM world over the last several years, and the Iphone/iTouch are living, breathing examples of what WM should have evolved to by this point in time. Apple has show MS that their is a large consumer market for "smartphone" like features. If only MS hadn't almost purposely ignored that market for so long.

Why can't I get a WM device in the size of an iPhone with as much Memory, a nice mobile browser that actually works (built-in), supports a hi-resolution screen, and is also fast and stable?

[Cybrid]

Well actually, I have an iPod Touch with 32 GB built in. Nice, did they fix the inability to edit appointments on the go?


But even so, today it is impossible for you to even get 16 GB of storage into your HTC touch at one time, even with removable storage. You can get 16 Gb Micro SD cards. Too pricey for my budget.
Last I saw you couldn't use that CF card in the Touch or ANY other WM phone at this point so it's a meaningless point. Almost every current WM phone has a MicroSD slot, and last I checked you are currently limited to 8 GB of storage.
Yet you can argue your iTouch has 32 Gb...? It's not a phone therefore if we can argue non-convergent devices, then even my Casio E-125 with a 32 Gb CF card renders that moot. :)
Only if you upsize to something like the non-converged iPaq 210 do you get a full size SDHC or CF slot. In which case even 32 GB could be surpassed.
The built in media player is severely limited in functionality (another bad decision on MS part IMO). It remains to be seen if that changes in Apple land when the SDK is released. However, it's not much of an issue for many of us. Yes, as a matter of fact it is. .. I'll reserve comments for now.

My music is all in MP3 format, since I know that works just about anywhere, and any video I bring along typically has to be converted to a mobile friendly format, even for use with my Tilt.
I simply convert all videos to MP4 now, instead of .avi and they happily work in both devices.

As my non- smartphone interested brother would say " I'm not gonna spend 6 hours to watch a two hour movie" Honest to Gawd real life quote ... It should just play.

A vast majority of people that use these devices for video will probably find the ease of "renting" from iTunes a superior way to acquire videos, though, despite what you and I think about that value proposition. Yes, My brother certainly would. Is that however a function of the iPhone? or iTunes? That it should have been a function of Windows Media PC, XBox Live Market place is an article Jason Dunn has covered.

The iPhone has a decent Word, Excel and PDF viewer, but you are correct, there isn't currently an all encompassing office suite. There is a third party app to edit word documents, and for many users, including myself that's really all I need on my mobile device. I need to view Excel docs, but don't have need to edit them, and let's be honest, the WM Excel editor has a tendency to mangle worksheets in the conversion process anyway, at least in my experience, so simply having an office suite doesn't necessarily mean it's used or usable for that matter. I also suspect that once the SDK is released we will see a full fledged office suite on the Apple devices. I hope so too.

My primary mobile device is currently the AT&T Tilt - I NEED my exchange Push email. I just am extremely frustrated by the lack of innovation in the WM world over the last several years, and the Iphone/iTouch are living, breathing examples of what WM should have evolved to by this point in time. Apple has show MS that their is a large consumer market for "smartphone" like features. If only MS hadn't almost purposely ignored that market for so long. Why can't I get a WM device in the size of an iPhone with as much Memory, a nice mobile browser that actually works (built-in), supports a hi-resolution screen, and is also fast and stable? The iPhone didn't just drop out of a tree. Apple looked at WM, Symbian, Palm et al and developed from there. " That I have seen so far...is that I have stood on the shoulders of giants" Isaac Newton
*4th mention of browser.
You mention lack of innovation and what MS should have evolved too. What miracle innovation would that be? <Dreads 5th mention of browser> LOL

[whydidnt]

Nice, did they fix the inability to edit appointments on the go? [/quote]
Yep, you can edit appointments on the go.

Yet you can argue your iTouch has 32 Gb...? It's not a phone therefore if we can argue non-convergent devices, then even my Casio E-125 with a 32 Gb CF card renders that moot. :)
If all you want to go but is an add on card fine. But the iPod has a higher resolution screen and is probably about 1/3 the size of the E-125. Not much of a comparison in my opinion.


Yes, as a matter of fact it is. .. I'll reserve comments for now.
Actually it's not --- do you suppose those 2 million people that bought an iPhone in the last 9 months thought it was a huge issue? You should really learn to look at things from perspectives other than your own.


As my non- smartphone interested brother would say " I'm not gonna spend 6 hours to watch a two hour movie" Honest to Gawd real life quote ... It should just play. Agreed, however unless you're downloading from iTunes you will most likely have to convert your content for any mobile device, Unless you are downloading illegal copies of movies and shows off the internet.

Is that however a function of the iPhone? or iTunes? That it should have been a function of Windows Media PC, XBox Live Market place is an article Jason Dunn has covered.
It's actually a function of both, they work together quite well, unlike WM devices and the abomination known as Mobile Device Center. True story - I purchased an iPaq 210 and 32 GB CF card thinking that would be a potentially better solution for media than the iPod Touch-- it was such a pain in the a$$ to sync my music and playlists that I just gave up. It would disconnect for no good reason in the middle of each sync after about 10 minutes. I could NOT get my entire music collection to sync, had to manually copy using a card reader, which off course meant my playlists, counts etc. aren't in sync any longer.


The iPhone didn't just drop out of a tree. Apple looked at WM, Symbian, Palm et al and developed from there. " That I have seen so far...is that I have stood on the shoulders of giants" Isaac Newton
*4th mention of browser.
You mention lack of innovation and what MS should have evolved too. What miracle innovation would that be? <Dreads 5th mention of browser> LOL Spoken like a true Microsoft Fanboy, and I thought Apple Fanboys were the worst. :lol: Once again you miss out on the fact the iPhone has TWICE the resolution of your WM converged device. You will laugh at the mention of a browser, but if you like to browse when mobile you should be crying at how poorly WM devices perform in this area. The fact that Google is showing 50X more searches from the iPhone than any other mobile device should tell you what you are questioning. I can tell you that having the iPod Touch available while traveling has made it so I can actually travel withouth my laptop. I would NEVER do that when I was just carrying a WM device -- not enough storage available, and the internet and email experience sucked. I couldn't do it. For me, the Touch has meant freedom. So once again, since you didn't seem to get it the first time -- HI RESOLUTION Screen, true web browser, fast, stable, easily syncs with the desktop, oh and the multi-touch is also quite user friendly as well, small, pocketable size. An easier to use interface, you can actually function quite well with just the one button, something I might ind difficult on the WM device, a nice scratch resistant glass screen without an big ugly bezel sticking up over the side of it, so you can use the whole screee, etc. etc. The fact you find none of these earth shattering shows just how EASY it would have been for both MS and it's OEM partners to deliver a better experience, if only they had cared to try. The fact that we are 9 months later and STILL no OEM has released any sort of true competitor is quite surprising.

Now what's wrong with the iPhone/Touch and why I still carry the Tilt -- Missing Bluetooth Profiles, no 3G connectivity, no built in Task list. No third party apps/games/eWallet, sorry Web-based stuff doesn't cut it for most this stuff, true Exchange support. As I mentioned in my original post both platforms have their advantages and disadvantages. The fact you find it impossible to accept that the iPhone has many of these tends to ruin your credibility. You would do well to try one for longer than 30 minutes, as you may be surprised by how useful and usable it really is. I know I surprised myself. :wink:

[Cybrid]

If all you want to go but is an add on card fine. But the iPod has a higher resolution screen and is probably about 1/3 the size of the E-125. Not much of a comparison in my opinion.
Oh, I was simply pointing out GB wasn't as huge a deal as everyone makes it out to be.


Agreed, however unless you're downloading from iTunes you will most likely have to convert your content for any mobile device, Unless you are downloading illegal copies of movies and shows off the internet. Naw simply pointing out that its not the superior player but... I would have to say, had MS managed to talk 100's of content providers into allowing distribution of movies in perfectly formatted .wmv's ...It'd be a non issue. Like the YouTube scenario, Jobs influenced change. All hail Jobs! Naw seriously the guy did good there.


It's actually a function of both, they work together quite well, unlike WM devices and the abomination known as Mobile Device Center. True story - I purchased an iPaq 210 and 32 GB CF card thinking that would be a potentially better solution for media than the iPod Touch-- it was such a pain in the a$$ to sync my music and playlists that I just gave up. It would disconnect for no good reason in the middle of each sync after about 10 minutes. I could NOT get my entire music collection to sync, had to manually copy using a card reader, which off course meant my playlists, counts etc. aren't in sync any longer. Ok. This is good. Believe it or not, I have been listening and churning away at everything everyone has said. This shows one thing. Apple designed a great user experience.


Spoken like a true Microsoft Fanboy, and I thought Apple Fanboys were the worst. :lol: Once again you miss out on the fact the iPhone has TWICE the resolution of your WM converged device. You will laugh at the mention of a browser, but if you like to browse when mobile you should be crying at how poorly WM devices perform in this area. Actually, I use Opera. I do bemoan PIE's deficiency. As for fanboy, uhm ok. I just want my device to do what I need.
Remember, no-one including you has yet sucessfully argued against the lack of slots and how that could affect the "ease of use". You did mention going on vacation with it...were you able to put your camera pictures on or get them off the iTouch without a PC?

You also admitted, the BT is crap.


The fact that Google is showing 50 X more searches from the iPhone than any other mobile device should tell you what you are questioning. That more iPhone users surf by Google? ;) No, that data is indeed mind boggling.


I can tell you that having the iPod Touch available while traveling has made it so I can actually travel without my laptop. I would NEVER do that when I was just carrying a WM device -- not enough storage available, and the internet and email experience sucked. I couldn't do it. For me, the Touch has meant freedom.Sure, A memory slot means freedom to move data at will to me. YMMV. As for internet and email, Opera Mini and Flexmail have done ok.


So once again, since you didn't seem to get it the first time -- HI RESOLUTION Screen, true web browser, fast, stable, easily syncs with the desktop, oh and the multi-touch is also quite user friendly as well, small, pocketable size. An easier to use interface, you can actually function quite well with just the one button, something I might ind difficult on the WM device, a nice scratch resistant glass screen without an big ugly bezel sticking up over the side of it, so you can use the whole screen, etc. etc. The fact you find none of these earth shattering shows just how EASY it would have been for both MS and it's OEM partners to deliver a better experience, if only they had cared to try. The fact that we are 9 months later and STILL no OEM has released any sort of true competitor is quite surprising.
Ok. See my summation.

Now what's wrong with the iPhone/Touch and why I still carry the Tilt -- Missing Bluetooth Profiles, no 3G connectivity, no built in Task list. No third party apps/games/eWallet, sorry Web-based stuff doesn't cut it for most this stuff, true Exchange support. As I mentioned in my original post both platforms have their advantages and disadvantages.Thanks for an honest review.


The fact you find it impossible to accept that the iPhone has many of these tends to ruin your credibility. You would do well to try one for longer than 30 minutes, as you may be surprised by how useful and usable it really is. I know I surprised myself. :wink: Maybe I will. I'll wait until there is a memory slot and uncrippled BT. Said so in Post 1.

Ok so, in summation. A device doesn't need to be extremely capable. Adaptable. Easily configurable...or really innovative.

You could take otherwise run of the mill hardware, put a few apps with a serious ease of use bent, fancy shmancy the heck out of it and bang. its a hit. I get that. Really I do. I just feel amused by it. You yourself make up for its shortcomings by dual devices. But it's easy to use.

[whydidnt]

You yourself make up for its shortcomings by dual devices. But it's easy to use.

Actually, you could put it the other way. I make up for WM's shortcomings by carrying two devices. See, neither is the end all, be all. Depending on your needs at any given time one or the other works better. Of course I will say the Touch is so small and light, bringing it along is not a terrible hardship. 8)

[Sven Johannsen]

50 times is more than substantial. 8O Mind boggling.
In this though I wonder how much of that is true iPhone vs. iTouch? Just the same way as WM devices don't distinguish themselves in browser string agents from...well, other WM devices. Even so with a 14 million WM PIE to 2 million iSafari ratio. The disparity is huge.

There is also the issue of what came on the device. I would venture a guess that Google is 'bookmarked' on the iPhone and iTouch out of the box. My WM phones didn't come like that. Each provider had some favorites in PIE and they included some search. AT&T has a Media Net link, and that has a search right at the top. You certainly can use Google, but you have to type it in at least once and save it as a favorite to make it convenient. I'd say there is a better than average chance the WM users aren't using Google, and Apple users are, because of what they shipped with. For what I look for, I tend to pop open Live Search.

[Cybrid]

Actually, you could put it the other way. I make up for WM's shortcomings by carrying two devices. See, neither is the end all, be all. Depending on your needs at any given time one or the other works better. Of course I will say the Touch is so small and light, bringing it along is not a terrible hardship. 8) Yeah. I agree to that unequivocally. Both do have serious short comings.
I guess the thing that I don't get is the WM gives you infinite choice, you could literally recreate the iTouch over top (admittedly this well beyond even most power users) but the average person will give up freedom of choice over to Apple for ease of use. Even with real world examples of how that lack of choice is bad for them. Silly isn't it?

[Dyvim]

I guess the thing that I don't get is the WM gives you infinite choice, you could literally recreate the iTouch over top (admittedly this well beyond even most power users) but the average person will give up freedom of choice over to Apple for ease of use. Even with real world examples of how that lack of choice is bad for them. Silly isn't it?
I think you're having trouble accepting that other users' wants and needs may differ from your own. For someone who doesn't need any of the extensibility of Windows Mobile and just wants a phone that organizes your contacts, does simple email, surfs the internet, and plays music & video why would they put up with all the baggage that is Windows Mobile for no benefit to them? Now that my friend would be not only silly but downright masochistic.

You seem to be a power user- more power to you- so by definition I think iPhone will never be for you.

I used to be a ppc power user (not because I had any need to, but strictly for the W?BIC factor), but since I became a father, I no longer have nearly as much time for tinkering around on my devices. I just need something that does the things I listed above and does them as simply as possible. And I need something sturdy with good battery life and a pocketable form-factor (while still having a screen big enough for mobile video watching). I don't ever edit Office docs on my phone- I hardly ever even open them up to view them on my phone (BTW, iPhone has a better Office document viewer than Windows Mobile IMO- go figure), I don't need any 3rd party apps, I don't need Exchange ActiveSync, I live in an area without 3G coverage (although they say it is coming) so EDGE is fine for me for now, I don't own BT stereo headphones and the only BT profile I use is the hands free profile in my car (which both iPhone and Advantage do fine), and all my media are in .mp3, .aac, or h.264 format, so support for additional codecs is irrelevant to me. So all of the major shortcomings of the iPhone don't matter to me (or at least not enough to make WM a better solution for me). Since I switched to the iPhone as my daily driver I hardly touch my Windows Mobile devices any more- I have no need of them. They just sit there collecting dust. The last thing I needed WM for- reading eBooks even has a workaround on the iPhone that is acceptable to me: Readdle.com.

[Cybrid]

I think you're having trouble accepting that other users' wants and needs may differ from your own. Dyvim! [ /b]Glad you came. :) and no, I fully understand that other s have wants diametrically opposed to mine. I just think the sacrifice in this scenario is too great. But more on this in a sec.

For someone who doesn't need any of the extensibility of Windows Mobile and just wants a phone that organizes your contacts, does simple email, surfs the internet, and plays music & video why would they put up with all the baggage that is Windows Mobile for no benefit to them? Now that my friend would be not only silly but downright masochistic.
Absolutely, my kids have no interest in pocket pcs. I did buy them older ipaqs but games and media were key. Instead they'd rather carry a Nintendo DS and a video/mp3 player. Also the older one has a mp3/phone. My current complement of PPC's and hardware would more than streamline my " Dad, Could you show me how to...?" problems.

You seem to be a power user- more power to you- so by definition I think iPhone will never be for you.
Post 1. Easily won over with ....


I used to be a ppc power user (not because I had any need to, but strictly for the W?BIC factor), but since I became a father, I no longer have nearly as much time for tinkering around on my devices. I just need something that does the things I listed above and does them as simply as possible. And I need something sturdy with good battery life and a pocketable form-factor (while still having a screen big enough for mobile video watching). I don't ever edit Office docs on my phone- I hardly ever even open them up to view them on my phone (BTW, iPhone has a better Office document viewer than Windows Mobile IMO- go figure), I don't need any 3rd party apps, I don't need Exchange ActiveSync, I live in an area without 3G coverage (although they say it is coming) so EDGE is fine for me for now,Ahh! The joy of fatherhood. Occasionally. :) Once a fellow PPC'er showed me how to run TodayPlus... A superb Today app which did everything but fetch coffee. I tried it but stopped using it because it took too much time to configure and learn. You could just as in ppl make it do anything. I just didn't want a special ized skillset for little gain.

I don't own BT stereo headphones and the only BT profile I use is the hands free profile in my car (which both iPhone and Advantage do fine), Case in point. You've got 16Gb of potential music. How would You listen to it? If your car supported it you could link the two.
So picture getting in your car, linking with one touch, listening to your playlist of choice, answer calls, have the music resume seamlessly.

Or would you rather, unplug the wired set( you came back from the gym) Put on the BT set. One touch connect. Fiddle with the radio or CD player. Turn the radio down to answer the call then turn it back up...
Believe me setting up a stereo headset is as simple as a mono set. You can do it! :)

Admit it, if the iPhone supported stereo, You'd consider buying the headphones.


and all my media are in .mp3, .aac, or h.264 format, so support for additional codecs is irrelevant to me.As you, I've converted my media. But isn't that time better spent pushing your kids on a swing?

What about interoperability, my kids mp3 players? All of which support dad approved codecs. Or should they have to?

What happens when some indie. high school rock band IM's him a codec he's never heard off?
Google and find a player. Want to port it? google a converter. A lot of work. Now of course that isn't going to change but I could dream. :/


So all of the major shortcomings of the iPhone don't matter to me (or at least not enough to make WM a better solution for me). Since I switched to the iPhone as my daily driver I hardly touch my Windows Mobile devices any more- I have no need of them.
Then yes, that would qualify as an ideal solution.

[b]But, As I shown, use of BT on an iPhone is effectively 0.
I could think of numerous scenarios where anyone not just me, would need Input/ Output.
The camera scenario is only one.
I'll give you a non iPhone scenario, how's that?.
For purposes of work, I also carry a USB key. I have at any given time, over 10Gb of memory cards on me. Ask me why?


They just sit there collecting dust. The last thing I needed WM for- reading eBooks even has a workaround on the iPhone that is acceptable to me: Readdle.com.Bookmarked. Thanks. Who knows I might need it if iPhone V2. or higher does have IO.

[Dyvim]

Case in point. You've got 16Gb of potential music. How would You listen to it? If your car supported it you could link the two.
So picture getting in your car, linking with one touch, listening to your playlist of choice, answer calls, have the music resume seamlessly.

Or would you rather, unplug the wired set( you came back from the gym) Put on the BT set. One touch connect. Fiddle with the radio or CD player. Turn the radio down to answer the call then turn it back up...
Believe me setting up a stereo headset is as simple as a mono set. You can do it! :)
My car already handles turning the radio down ... and it all links with zero touches. It's not a BT headset, it's built into the car. Answer calls from the steering wheel or make them from the touchscreen in the dash. The microphone is hidden somewhere and the call comes over the car's stereo. It automatically lowers the radio for incoming calls and raises it when the call ends. And this works with any music played over the car's stereo whether it's FM/XM/CD or aux-in from an mp3 player. I don't actually own a BT headset.

I admit it would be cool if I my car stereo supported A2DP or AVRCP but it doesn't. If I get a new car or car stereo, I'll have to re-evaluate my mobile device options. Do these profiles work well with the hands free profile? i.e. allowing you to both broadcast your music and field calls?

Admit it, if the iPhone supported stereo, You'd consider buying the headphones.
Uh ... no. Thanks but no thanks. I already own WM devices that support the profile and never felt the need to purchase BT headphones. About the only time I use headphones at all is when I'm on a plane where BT is a no-no and I have a so-so pair of noise-canceling headphones. Otherwise I'm playing music through one of several speaker docks. Besides, the last thing I need is yet another gadget to charge.

As you, I've converted my media. But isn't that time better spent pushing your kids on a swing?
While I agree that the time could be better spent, if I never converted my media from CD, I would have to use a CD player. I've had regular iPods for a few years now, so I already had an extensive music library in iTunes ready to be synched. Yes I do convert the video from my video camera from mpeg2 to mpeg4 but I would have to convert it regardless as the raw footage is ~1MB/sec (i.e. ~8Mbps) and I've never had a mobile device, WM or otherwise that could handle that. So, I fail to see how that is a differentiator between WM and iPhone if I wish to take my home movies with me (which I do).

What about interoperability, my kids mp3 players? All of which support dad approved codecs. Or should they have to?

What happens when some indie. high school rock band IM's him a codec he's never heard off?
Google and find a player. Want to port it? google a converter. A lot of work. Now of course that isn't going to change but I could dream. :/
I'm a new father. By the time my kid is ready for a media player there'll probably be some new-fangled thing we haven't even thought of yet and in any case my iPhone will have long since been replaced by some newer, shinier gadget. :D

As I shown, use of BT on an iPhone is effectively 0.
No, you've only shown that it is 0 for you. For the only thing I've ever used BT for on a WM phone, which is pairing with the built-in hands free system in my car, the iPhone behaves identically. I agree that Apple should be ashamed of themselves for releasing an iPod with BT but no stereo profiles, but really I couldn't care less. Honest. I'm not trying to pull one over on you.

Yeah a USB port or a memory card slot could be useful if you needed to do a quick file transfer. But until Apple opens up the iPhone's file system with an SDK (if they ever do), there's little point in it. And let's face it, I don't think there'll ever be an unsightly memory card slot in an iPhone- that's just a pipe dream. It would keep them from selling you a new device every year when they bump the capacity. But as I've said, that's a trade-off I'm willing to make for the time being. If the iPhone platform stagnates as I feel WM has done, then in a year or 2 I may be back on WM 7 or Android or something new. For now I'm enjoying my phone, which is something I've never been able to say about any of the several WM phones I've had. I did enjoy my stand-alone e830 but hated my Motorola dumb phone (SLVR). Now, I'm finally converged and content (for the time being).

[Cybrid]

If I get a new car or car stereo, I'll have to re-evaluate my mobile device options. Do these profiles work well with the hands free profile? i.e. allowing you to both broadcast your music and field calls?...
Yes, While it isn't gapless the way it oughta be... I could be listening to anything and have a chirp announce the call. Tap and it switches to the call. Tap to end and the music kicks in exactly where I was earlier. Just the way your car does.


No, you've only shown that it is 0 for you. For the only thing I've ever used BT for on a WM phone, which is pairing with the built-in hands free system in my car, the iPhone behaves identically. I agree that Apple should be ashamed of themselves for releasing an iPod with BT but no stereo profiles, but really I couldn't care less. Honest. I'm not trying to pull one over on you.

I understand that you don't want a healthy dose of BT radiation next to your ear. :lol: But in essence anyone with music on their iPhone and would be listening to it regularily would be carrying a wired set. No if and or buts. You know that.
If your car didn't support it. Would you buy a headset and then swicth between wired and BT?


Yeah a USB port or a memory card slot could be useful if you needed to do a quick file transfer. But until Apple opens up the iPhone's file system with an SDK (if they ever do), there's little point in it. And let's face it, I don't think there'll ever be an unsightly memory card slot in an iPhone- that's just a pipe dream.
Exactly. For me this is important. I don't care what memory card...even a Sony memory stick... :puppydogeyes: While I do have 3 PC's, I need my portable to be as stand-alone as possible. I need functions Apple doesn't want me to have...

Now, I'm finally converged and content (for the time being).
While I wish you well there, I just hope the need for what I have said doesn't come up.

If the iPhone platform stagnates as I feel WM has done, Well, if they don't start adding better hardware and supporting that hardware's capapbilities...then that day is Today. You can do a lot with software. You could make a device seem new and add apps to maximize your usage but true additional functionality would require hardware.
GPS,
TV Out
A nice set of gaming oriented buttons :devilboy:
Whatever.

[Dyvim]

If your car didn't support it. Would you buy a headset and then swicth between wired and BT?
No, if my car didn't support it then I would never use BT. :D I hate BT headsets. But then again I rarely listen to my iPhone with headphones either (just as I rarely listened to my WM devices with headphones). I'm more a speaker dock kind of guy but really don't use my iPhone that much for music. For me it's more browsing, sharing photos and sharing home videos (for which the crappy monaural excuse for a built-in speaker works well enough), checking email and fielding the occasional phone call.
While I wish you well there, I just hope the need for what I have said doesn't come up.
If it does, I have many WM devices handy ready to come to the rescue and am acquiring more on a regular basis as I program for them for work. I just chose to do something different for my main personal device since I don't need all the WM bells & whistles at this point and really don't need all the hassles either.

[LabResearcher]

I am new here and new to the mobile "smartphone" market. I have a RAZR, and I am looking to buy a smartphone. I have been googling a lot and learning a lot. Earlier today, I went to the store and played around with the Blackberry 8310, Moto Q 9, and LG Voyager. I like that the Blackberries can also function as a modem for my laptop (a feature that I would definitely use). Unfortunately, none of the demos were connected; so I couldn't try out the IE. Later, as I was driving home, I decided to look at the iPhones while the Blackberry and Moto Q 9 were still fresh in my head. I liked that the Apple had a large screen and displayed web pages like a real computer, BUT it was SLOW!!!!!!!!!!! The three things I would be using it for MOST would be phone, SMS, and the web browser to QUICKLY look up information on dictionary.com, wikipedia, and google. If I want to look something up QUICKLY on google, I don't want it to take 3 minutes! I want it to take 30 seconds! Oh, and that little touch screen keyboard on that Apple was driving me crazy ... "anyone have a stylus?" I kept thinking the whole time. My ideal phone would have a large screen like the iPhone, the "two finger touch" browser functionality of the iPhone (except be IE or better yet, Firefox), be able to perform a google search within 30 seconds, and maybe have a non-touch keyboard that slides out ... in fact, if the phone opened like the LG Voyager, that would be SWEET!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

Seeing my "needs" above, can anyone recommend a phone that I should take a look at?

(currently, I am waiting for the competition to respond to the iPhone, and then I'll buy that product)

CES 2009: Bill Gates walks on stage and says "I would like to Introduce the Zune Phone 3000 2.0Z turbo! It fits in your pocket, yet if you unfold it eight times and waive your hand in front of it, it is a full laptop computer! Better yet, you don't even have to take it out of your pocket ... it has voice command from your bluetooth headset, and in the headset is a lens that you can look into and see the screen. You will look cool with the headset on, like me. People will want to be your friend. Even better, it doubles as your own personal EMT. In the event of an emergency, it has a built in defibrillator - here, let me demo it..." :wink:

(you guys typed a lot of good stuff above. thank you)

[Cybrid]

Update: It happened! The scenario I foresaw did really happen!
Guy came in with a jailbroken iPhone and 2 CD's with his pictures to print.
He even asked me what to do about the "The picture you have selected has a resolution of 640x480. This is too low ...for the selected size of print...The recommended size is 800x600, Do you want to print anyway?" yes or no window. Not that that has anything to do with iPhone users in general... :D

I nearly crapped myself laughing. I forgot to ask him if he uses BT as part of the non scientific anecdotal survey statistic, to support my contention iPhone BT users = 0

[Russ Smith]

Past experience has shown that successful marketing often allows a "lesser" product to succeed over another, more capable device. WM devices really do have quite a few capabilities that the iPhone lacks but Apple is nothing if not a good marketing company. (The success of the iPod is, in my mind, much more due to Apples successful marketing than any merits of the device per se.)

What I'd like to see happen is for Microsoft to get shaken out of their current mindset. If they want to successfully compete with other phone OSes, they need build on where they're already superior. They need to vastly improve PIE and add other features that might make WM "compete" with Windows on the entry level. I'm not holding my breath waiting though.

[uzetaab]

First of all, can I just say thank you?

All I seem to hear about these days is what a wonder the iPhone & iPod products are, & I find it really frustrating. It's nice to know that some people in the world haven't been suckered in by the hype & marketing.

In my opinion, the single biggest flaw with these devices is that the average user simply doesn't realise that by buying their music from iTunes, they are locking themselves into iPods in the future. What happens when someone comes along & topples these products from the top of the heap? It will eventually happen. I seem to recall Palm toppling Casio & Sharp in the organiser business. Palm, obviously, has since been toppled itself.

What was that law suit that a few years ago with microsoft? Something about it being unfair practice to have internet explorer preinstalled on windows machines? I never really understood it since web browsers are free anyway. But the point I want to make is that it seems pretty unfair for apple to have a format that is not compatible with anything else. People seem to be blinded by this fact due to whole DRM issue.

Sigh. I know this is a little off topic, I'm sorry. I just had to vent a little steam.

[Russ Smith]

sort of off-topic, but taking up where uzetaab left off:

Apple seems to make all the right moves when it comes to marketing (except for the Lisa and Mac III, which are pretty much ancient history) where Microsoft's marketing constantly shoots the company in the foot. Vista was phenominal in beta, before marketing got ahold of it and forced the development team to create a 32-bit version, which in turn forced the removal of the new file system. The success of the iPhone is largely predicated on integration with iTunes and other services. It may still founder if the Safari-based apps don't work well or fail to come out in sufficient quantity.