HTC To Users: No New Video Drivers For You!

[Jon Westfall]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/01/22/htc-chimes-in-on-video-driver-controversy/' target='_blank'>http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/...er-controversy/</a><br /><br /></div><i>"So there's been a relatively weighty grassroots effort the past few weeks to convince HTC that there's something horribly flawed with its Qualcomm MSM7xxx-based devices -- essentially that video acceleration isn't nearly as well off as it could be because the company isn't taking advantage of the chipset's ATI Imageon circuitry. HTC has weighed in on the hullabaloo today, and in short, the news isn't good for anyone hoping to get a software update out of the deal: "HTC believes the overall value of its devices based on their combination of functionality and connectivity exceeds their ability to play or render high-resolution video. These devices do still provide a rich multimedia experience comparable to that of most smartphones and enable a variety of audio and video file formats," reads the official response, in part. Furthermore, the company has officially confirmed that Imageon drivers are not in use on the affected devices, but that it "plans to include video acceleration hardware in future video-centric devices that will enable high-resolution video support." To be totally fair, HTC never promised Imageon acceleration to begin with"</i><br /><br />A response is better than no-response right? Well, perhaps not in this case. The rather heated issue of video drivers for the latest wave of HTC devices has come to a rather abrupt official resolution - HTC isn't going to release new drivers. However here is where the community can pick up the ball that ODMs do tend to drop on occassion.

[JonnoB]

This is really too bad. While HTC did not specifically promise drivers, it was certainly implied with the lead up to the product's release. The sad thing is that only power users are going to complain and that is not enough for HTC to take notice. What they do not realize is that these same power users are very influential in the Windows Mobile community and it will leave a bitter taste to consume another HTC gadget.

If HTC somehow did not have the ability or the silicon by design (purposely or not) was unable to be accessed, than that would be a better explanation than this. Even something as simple as - in evaluating the performance of the hardware, we determined that the effect on battery life was too much. Something... rather than this statement which I read to say to all HTC customers who thought they would get something of equal or better value than previous generation devices: 'screw you'

Sound harsh? I think that is how many people feel right now.

[nosmohtac]

This leaves a sour taste in my mouth!!! :evil:

Even though HTC never promised or implied the support for this part of the processor, it is ridiculous that my Mogul doesn't even play video as well as my previous three Pocket PCs.

They may not have promised drivers, but a huge step backward in features is not something anyone expects when purchasing the latest PPC phone.

[JesterMania]

It seems like everytime I want to consider an HTC device, there are some flaws to it. For example, I had my eye on the HTC TyTN for a long time but the sliding keyboard loosening up and the stylus silo issues prevented me from getting it. I considered the HTC Trinity (P3600) for a while but over on xda-dev, there was a very long thread where numerous users had issues with the Trinity overheating and rendering the touch screen useless.

Now that I consider the Kaiser/Polaris, it appears it is plagued with poor video rendering. I'd like to use my device for more than just PIM, and the lack of support for multimedia just amazes me, in the age of the iPhone, N95, etc. It's things like these that make me not regret getting a Nokia N95. If HTC's stance is that their phone is good-enough just because it meets the limitations of other smartphone devices, then they had better re-think their strategy.

[bigray327]

Typical response from HTC. Check two stories down; their sales will exceed 2 million units this year, so until something like this hits them in the pocketbook, they won't do anything about it.

The way they have treated the Mogul community is simply criminal.

[hamishmacdonald]

I'm completely enjoying my HTC Touch Cruise, and I must have used a dozen other models over the years. I know people want to demonise HTC over this 'cause they've got their righteous consumer indignation on, but I feel like my machine does everything that was promised and more.

Maybe they don't perform like older devices (which were bigger and single-purpose, not converged), but my experience is that they're really not "crippled" or horrible like these dramatic messages imply.

It's a shame, really, because this is getting a lot of press, which might deter people from buying HTC devices, when they'd probably all be perfectly happy with them -- and those extra sales mean more focus on the Windows Mobile platform, which means more software solutions and better integration between other systems and these devices. So the community is kinda shooting itself in the foot with this.

I know the horror of having a new device malfunction or be a disappointment, so I get it. But I'm just not experiencing this like a dead pixel or bad screen or that first dreaded scratch. It's a comparison rather than a flaw, and in all aspects of life comparison is the path to misery.

[packetstorm]

I don't like arrogance and even though HTC builds devices for numerous companies, there still are several other alternatives. :evil:

[tnels!]

I own a Mogul, but purchased it from Sprint. Isn't Sprint the 'customer' here? Why isn't Sprint putting presure on HTC to deliver a product that meets a minimum of 'implied' specifications?

[JesterMania]

Maybe they don't perform like older devices (which were bigger and single-purpose, not converged), but my experience is that they're really not "crippled" or horrible like these dramatic messages imply.

I think the point people are trying to make is if the hardware is capable, why is the software being the limitation? I'm sure HTC has their reasons but it would make them sound a lot better if they came clear with a specific reason and not "These devices do still provide a rich multimedia experience comparable to that of most smartphones and enable a variety of audio and video file formats".

It's a shame, really, because this is getting a lot of press, which might deter people from buying HTC devices, when they'd probably all be perfectly happy with them -- and those extra sales mean more focus on the Windows Mobile platform, which means more software solutions and better integration between other systems and these devices. So the community is kinda shooting itself in the foot with this.

I'd sooner have the truth and everyone's opinion revealed than to have anything hidden. There are those such as yourself who do not mind the device in its current state and that's great. However, there is hard cold evidence on the internet of many people who have bought devices such as the TyTN II and were disappointed with what they got and this should be revealed - good or bad. Instead of looking at this as the "community shooting itself in the foot", you should realize that criticism such as this happens to everything from video games and computer hardware to anything the consumer can buy. This is no different than any other review and I have lost count of how many WM devices have gotten bashed in one way or another due to lackluster features, reliability issues, etc.

and in all aspects of life comparison is the path to misery

I tend to disagree. My belief is comparison leads to competition, development, and progression. :mrgreen:

[JKingGrim]

To those who say that HTC did not advertise that part of the chip, this is really not true. The specs of the devices say Qualcomm MSM7x00 Chipset. They do NOT say Qualcomm MSM7x00 Chipset minus the graphics acceleration features. Some product descriptions even went as far as boasting the capabilities of the Qualcomm chipset that they did not even deliver on. If you buy a motherboard with a certain chipset, dont you expect all parts of that chipset to work?

I don't think this if over. I think the above is an argument worthy of a lawsuit. I can't wait for the imate 9502 to come out so I can be rid of HTC devices hopefully for good. The imate uses the same chipset and I fully expect it to run circles around the tilt. Even if it is pushing a VGA screen, having video drivers is a major gain.

[JonnoB]

I read recently a description of this situation comparable to a situation like this:

If Dell sold a PC with a high-end nVidia graphics card but included only a generic VGA driver, would that be acceptable?

HTC advertised that this would be the newest multimedia capable device eluding to the greatness of the Qualcomm chipset solution and then did not deliver what the Qualcomm solution was capable of. Even worse, the baseline performance in general purpose video affecting all aspects of the device is a step backward when compared to other converged devices that have been on the market for years... even when compared to older HTC devices.

[Menneisyys]

BTW, guys, CP 1.1.3 has just been released: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=1850451

At least, the non-WMV(?) video playback issues are solved. Of course, you MUST purchase CP to be able to play videos and this won't help with, say, playing back videos that CP can't handle (RealPlayer, the full YouTube TCPMP plug-in etc). It doesn't fix any other, system-level issues either - solely (non-WMP?) videos played back INSIDE CorePlayer.

Otherwise, I agree with all the people in there and would also like to add the touchscreen CPU usage issue on all non-Xscale devices, which I've been constantly reporting to HTC for TWO years. They haven't fixed it either...

[yet_another_guest]

Let's face reality: Who care's about that problem?

HTC? No! HTC is selling most phones through operators. So if a few people complain to them, that HTC's devices doesn't live up to their expectations, HTC doesn't care. Why should they? Those people who complain are not HTC's customers.
So if people want to complain,ask your carrier, not HTC.

Carriers? No. Most people who buy such phones only seek for a business or e-mail tool. Only a few people use the multimedia capeablities of WindowsMobile. A friend of mine is computer scientist, and he does not care about multimedia on his (HTC) phone. He owns an iPod for this purpose.
I have a PocketPC (non-phone) for the classic PIM usage (still the best companion for Outlook :ppclove:), supported by an N-Series Nokia. The perfect solution for me.

And actually, I think the comparions on the HTCCLassAction are not representative: If they wanted to show a real comparison, they would have compared the Tytn2 to an LG KS20 (both are said to be poweredby the MSM7200); but comparing a PocketPC2003, Intel PXA 272 powered Magician against a WindowsMobile6, Qualcomm MSM7200 powered Tytn2 is not representative at all.

But the question remains:
Has anyone promised fast video, or even hardware accelleration? No. HTC just stated on the website that the device is powered by an MSM 7200 processor. No information about any hardware features there. Only on Qualcomm.com you found (read: past tense) a info stating what certain chips could do; this does not neccessarily mean all MSM7200 have this features.
Compare it to the label Core2Duo: If this is the only information you get,you don't no much about the real processor.
I think the same is valid for the MSM7200: If you have a look at the PDF with the MSM7200 features from Qualcomm (before Qualcomm removed it from the page, and I think I know they removed it :devilboy: ), it shows different flavours of the MSM7200 at the bottom page. Those flavours are (here) only devided by their baseband module (at least that's the only differentiation shown here) (i.e. what frequencies can those devices receive) , but it is also possible that there is a version of the MSM7200 (perhaps only produced for HTC, like the Samsung chip only made for Apple) with out graphics accelleration. So maybe there is this ATI-style chip, maybe not. We don't know until someone has a real proof.

But even if there is this ATI chip: Do you have the right to demand graphics accelleration? I don't think so. HTC, or the carriers, never advertised it as a multimedia machine, leave alone graphics accelleration. It should be the ultimade connection tool (it actually is: tri-band 3g, quad-band GSM, bluetooth, WLAN, Exchange and Outlook sync, what do you want???), and that's actually what most customers of a Windows Mobile phone expect.
They want a business tool, expect e-mails, calendar and office to work, but usually they don't care about movies or games.

If I want a multimedia centric handset, I go for an iPhone, an N95, or one of these funky Walkman phones. But not Windows Mobile. Those device were always great for work, but actually they are usually quite ugly (except for Samsung's BlackJack, or Motorola's WinMobile phones), and to be honest, I think even Microsoft does not really care about WindowsMobile as a non-company-customer solution.

So the only people caring about WindowsMobile as a multimedia system are the hardcore fans of WindowsMobile, who use it for more than just work. But since WindowsMobile phones (I simply drop the two remaining non-phones out of my equation) are only a niche market of the cellphone industry, and people who use their PocketPC for more than e-mails are a fringe group of those, the carriers had to care about a small group within a minority, and, I am really sorry to say that, that makes economically absolutely no sense.

I don't think this dicussion will do any harm to HTC's sales, since "normal people" (like my parents, my sister, my girlfriend), who also might buy such a device, will never know about this discussion, nor understand it, when they hear about it. They never read such sites like engadget or the register, leave alone Modaco or PocketPCThouhts.

So, sorry for the lengthy text, but I hope you get why I think there will be never a solution for this problem (if there is any).

regards

[Underwater Mike]

I own a Mogul, but purchased it from Sprint. Isn't Sprint the 'customer' here? Why isn't Sprint putting presure on HTC to deliver a product that meets a minimum of 'implied' specifications?

You're kidding, right? Have you kept up with Sprint's tribulations during the last two years? They may still be the third-ranked carrier, but they're hemorrhaging customers, in large part because of lousy customer service. It would be totally out of character for Sprint to do anything about this.

[JKingGrim]

But the question remains:
Has anyone promised fast video, or even hardware accelleration? No. HTC just stated on the website that the device is powered by an MSM 7200 processor. No information about any hardware features there. Only on Qualcomm.com you found (read: past tense) a info stating what certain chips could do; this does not neccessarily mean all MSM7200 have this features.
Compare it to the label Core2Duo: If this is the only information you get,you don't no much about the real processor.
I think the same is valid for the MSM7200: If you have a look at the PDF with the MSM7200 features from Qualcomm (before Qualcomm removed it from the page, and I think I know they removed it :devilboy: ), it shows different flavours of the MSM7200 at the bottom page. Those flavours are (here) only devided by their baseband module (at least that's the only differentiation shown here) (i.e. what frequencies can those devices receive) , but it is also possible that there is a version of the MSM7200 (perhaps only produced for HTC, like the Samsung chip only made for Apple) with out graphics accelleration. So maybe there is this ATI-style chip, maybe not. We don't know until someone has a real proof.MSM7200 is the model number of a chipset. Core2Duo is a product line. If you want to make an analogy lets make it a fair one. I will rephrase the above statement for you:
"Compare it to the label Core2Duo T5450: If this is the only information you get,you don't no much about the real processor."
Now that we have made this analogy accurate you will find your statement false. If a computer advertised that it came with a T5450 processor, wouldnt you expect that processor to have a 2MB cache, 1.66GHz clock speed and 667Mhz FSB?

Lets make a better analogy. Afterall, the MSM7500 is a chipset, not just a processor. Say you bought an intel motherboard that advertised it had an Intel G965 Express chipset. Isnt it safe to ASSUME that the motherboard has an Intel GMA X3000 integrated graphics chip?

Do I need to spell it out any more clearly to you? Its bad enough that companies get away with this crap without people like you who think it is okay. The HTC devices advertised a Qualcomm MSM7x00. There was no mention that features of the chipset were disabled.

And since you believe this problem does not affect HTC's customers since they are buisiness users, lets take a look another angle. The Tilt has GPS built in. The following GPS software will not run on the tilt (or my mogul) because HTC decided direct3d drivers were not necessary:
http://www.pdafun.net/
A bit odd, huh? Satisfied that its not just ipod hippies that are affected?

[yet_another_guest]

I am really sorry. I did not want offend you or anyone else. I did not realize that people put so much passion into this subject.

What I assumed from the Qualcomm PDF was that there exists more than one version of the MSM7200 chipset. Since there are versions with different baseband modules I assumed that there might exist different main-chips as well.
What I actually got wrong was the problem of the Tytn2 owners: I thought your main problem focus is that you think your device is not fast enough, especially in the entertainment and gaming sector. But from what you are saying I get the impression that some features (that any PocketPC includes, read: drivers) are missing. That makes much more sense. But that's not the impression I get by reading this HTCClassAction website; there it seems like a few nerds are disappointed because their favorite toy doesn't live up to there expectations (by comparing speed in games, writing stuff about missing FPS and slowdowns in certain situations => stuff any PocketPC owner encounters now and then).

But if drivers are missing, that's definitely a problem I understand.

regards

P.S.: there is no need to put it in such a harsh tone if you want to correct me. After all, we are talking about a PDA, nothing that really matters.

[yet_another_guest]

One more thing from the Qualcomm features PDF:

PA PCS Information shown in this document is only exemplary of QUALCOMM products. QUALCOMM reserves the right to make changes, at any time and without notice, to its products that may cause its products to differ from the information shown in this document. NOTE: Alternative GPS antenna configurations are available.

[yet_another_guest]

current development from Engadget Mobile: (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/25/htc-further-responds-to-video-driver-issue-will-improve-future/)

in short: HTC will not enable video co-processor

[Menneisyys]

current development from Engadget Mobile: (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/25/htc-further-responds-to-video-driver-issue-will-improve-future/)

in short: HTC will not enable video co-processor


Funny they want to lose a LOT of their customers. This is very good news for both Nokia and Apple....

[Underwater Mike]

HTC will utilize hardware video acceleration like the ATI Imageon in many upcoming products. Our users have made it clear that they expect our products to offer an improved visual experience, and we have included this feedback into planning and development of future products.

Ah, the functionality you want will be available in future products -- which, of course, you are free to obtain at the then-market price! Silly consumers! :roll:

[JayP]

I'm completely enjoying my HTC Touch Cruise, and I must have used a dozen other models over the years. I know people want to demonise HTC over this 'cause they've got their righteous consumer indignation on, but I feel like my machine does everything that was promised and more.

I don't yet own an HTC product, and I'm quite interested in knowing how such a company supports its customers and products. I am all for consumers keeping companies in check and on top of best-practices, and I wouldn't call it "righteous consumer indignation," though having it might be a good thing, since companies should be doing the "right" thing.

Let's face reality: Who care's about that problem?...
But even if there is this ATI chip: Do you have the right to demand graphics accelleration? I don't think so. HTC, or the carriers, never advertised it as a multimedia machine, leave alone graphics accelleration. It should be the ultimade connection tool (it actually is: tri-band 3g, quad-band GSM, bluetooth, WLAN, Exchange and Outlook sync, what do you want???), and that's actually what most customers of a Windows Mobile phone expect.
They want a business tool, expect e-mails, calendar and office to work, but usually they don't care about movies or games.

It's true that I personally am much more concerned about using my handheld device to manage my calendar, contacts, documents, and spreadsheets than anything else, but I am quite interested in my device having the capability to play video smoothly. It's overreaching to say that Windows Mobile users don't care about movies or games (read: video performance), especially when programs such as GPS mapping is crippled (Don't you think business users want smooth, uninterrupted performance of their navigation software to get them to the next meeting?).

If I want a multimedia centric handset, I go for an iPhone, an N95, or one of these funky Walkman phones. But not Windows Mobile.

Hmmm, did we move backwards in our expectations of our handheld devices? I'm glad we're past the days of having to choose between a Commodore 64 or Amiga for gaming or an IBM for business tools. I've been a WM user since 2000 and have seen video performance improve on the platform and am glad for it, even if I don't seek to watch video often. Sure each unit has strengths and weaknesses, but it's a crock for someone to say that I can't expect some level of performance in all areas, particularly if the unit has the capability, but it's not supported by the company. Do I need to choose a "multimedia centric handset" in order for the video to be acceptable? I don't see users as being so limited in how they use their device. Also, there are references to people carrying multiple devices, a WM for PIM and another for media...I thought that convergence was to get away from multiple devices. Why should we just shrug off lack-lackster performance and pick up a second or third device to fill in the gap?

I've seen a few people talking about "normal users" not caring and not affected by this issue; however, it seems to me that normal users still want their devices to work well. Decades ago, normal users didn't play video games on their PCs, nor watch movies, nor edit home movies. I don't buy the argument that "normal users" aren't interested in things beyond PIM and Office. YouTube recognizes that many of their users are interested in visiting the site on the go, so they recently released a mobile-version of the site. Those YouTube users who want to watch video on their mobile device, are they "normal users"? Might they also want a Windows Mobile device? However they are classified, they are prospective HTC customers. Should those prospective customers be wary of this issue of drivers? I believe so, for it could affect them.

What I actually got wrong was the problem of the Tytn2 owners...But if drivers are missing, that's definitely a problem I understand....P.S.: there is no need to put it in such a harsh tone if you want to correct me. After all, we are talking about a PDA, nothing that really matters.

Yet_another_guest, I actually got the impression that you had a harsh tone for others here who are dissatisfied with the HTC performance. It's true that life is much more important than a gadget, but customers give up their hard-earned money to companies and expect that those companies will in-good-faith provide good service. If a company is only true to itself, then it will wait until a larger mass of people complain to take action, for it affects the bottom-line. If a company is true to it's customers, then it will take the step to resolve the issue because it is the right thing to do. Even if HTC sees those complaining as a very small minority, I would bet that many of them are early adopters and opinion leaders, people that a company should not ignore. I am very interested to see how this company continues to address this issue, not just out of curiosity, but to see whether I'll become an HTC customer.

Jay

[nosmohtac]

Very well put, Jay.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[V-iPAQ]

I too don't own any HTC stuff. And I don't intend to use a PDA for games or video. But I DO use GPS nav, and if like the youtube video the cruise is going to be more jerky than my 4yr old PPC, then I'm certainly not going to buy it.

[Jason Lee]

My HTC TyTN II playes video that my 8125 would never render. It plays faster and smoother. I consider this an improvement or an upgrade.
I was only slightly confused when TCPMP didn't play video well using direct draw. But GDI and raw frame buffer work just fine. And work better than even direct draw on my 8125. Sure maybe it could perform better but i have little roome to complain myself as it way out performs my previous pocket pc.

Just wanted it to be known that the new qualcomm devices play video just fine. Beter than any OMAP device that is for sure. I just wanted to clarify as i had a friend at work ask me if my device would even play video after reading this thread. ;)

What people are complaining about is that the devices don't play video as well as they potentially could if they had proper hardware drivers instead of having the main CPU decode it.