CES 2008: Interview & Demo of the REDFLY Mobile Companion

[Jason Dunn]

The <a href="http://www.celiocorp.com/">REDFLY Mobile Companion</a> is one of the more interesting devices I saw at CES 2008, but being aware of the community commentary on it heading into CES, I was aware of the controversy around it's Foleo-like aura and the complaints about the high price point. Here are three videos for you to watch: two interview videos with their President &amp; CEO, Kirt Bailey, and him walking me through a product demo.<br /><br /><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tPxSd4YDD0g&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPxSd4YDD0g">CES 2008: REDFLY Mobile Companion Interview [Part 1]</a><br /><br />Two more videos after the break.<!><br /><br /><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hnG9Y4so-e4&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnG9Y4so-e4">CES 2008: REDFLY Mobile Companion Interview [Part 2]</a><br /><br /><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/O5HtetqGumU&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5HtetqGumU">CES 2008: REDFLY Mobile Companion Hands-On Demo</a>

[r@dimus]

Kirt claims a 9000mA battery? What does that mean? 9000mAH? That translates to 9AH. I'll have to see that verified before I believe it. If his spec of an 8 hour battery life is true that is impressive, but if the battery is of the capacity he stated it's going to take a while to charge it back up.

The way it resizes the resolution for apps could be problematic. Although the way it handles Excel Mobile looks nice. If Softmaker's WinMo suite translates over the to the Redfly's screen they might be on to something.

It will be interesting to see how hackable the Redfly is. I could see someone hacking up a driver for Windows XP and turning it into a BT console for a desktop or server.

Boo on Jason for not grilling Kirt on what his why anyone should pick this product over an EeePC. The question comparing the Redfly to a full laptop makes little sense.

So, why buy one of these over an EeePC?
- Battery life that may possibly be better than any subnote on the market.
- The ability to work directly with the files stored on the PPC with a full keyboard without sacrificing an ActiveSync relationship.
- One less full-blown computer system to manage.

Why buy an EeePC instead?
- You can access the internet via standard apps instead of scaled down stuff
- You can work on your files in their native apps if they'll fit on the Eee (OpenOffice or , if XP is installed, MS Office).
- The Eee is more flexible for handling the different remote access methods (VPN, Juniper, CSG, etc).
- You can rip DVD's to a Eee and play them back at full screen
- I could think of a plenty more.

I still don't know about the Redfly. From my experience supporting non-technical users, I suspect most WinMo users out there don't know a quarter of what their devices are capable of. They know how to get their email on it, keep a calendar and address book, make phone calls, but don't really understand that it can do much more. When they really want to do work they automatically think of pulling out the laptop. The geek set will look at the Redfly, then look at the Eee, and go for the Eee.

Seems to me you'd have to be a hard-core PPC nut who spends a lot of time away from AC outlets to want to spring for a Redfly. Remote field workers come to mind.

[r@dimus]

Okay, I just reminded myself on the capacities of modern laptop batteries. His claim of 9000mAH is probably pretty accurate. Never mind.

[Russ Smith]

SoftMaker's suite worked fine on VGA screens before WM2003SE and I can't see why they would have changed the dynamic screen extents sensing. So, I think it would work on a REDFLY as well.

The REDFLY does look like an enterprise niche device to me. I could see it in warehouse and other inventory operations where the data could be gathered on location and then taken to a common filing/reporting station with a REDFLY attached to some large storage devices and/or a network. I could also see something like the REDFLY in a shop that provides WM devices to their work force. They could buy a few of these that people could use when there's a need. That's far easier to do than buying laptops and dealing with all the multiple synch situations that would ensue. Actually most "thin-client" applications could work reasonably well with a REDFLY-type setup. Still, the only way this makes sense is to use a single REDFLY with multiple MW devices.

[RobrechtV]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see a big problem using this with vga or wvga devices that use the double resolution graphics.

The Tytn II used in the demo has a qvga (320x240) screen. Translate that to the RedFly's 800x480 and you get a great result: low-res (i.e. small) top and bottom bars, fonts and graphics on a big screen give you lots of space to display information.

Take, on the other hand, my Toshiba g900 which has the same resolution as the RedFly (wvga, 800x480) on a much smaller screen. I'm afraid the RedFly will not be able to substitute its high resolution fonts and graphics with low-res ones. It will just display exactly the same screen as my g900 would, only bigger. Result: huge fonts, graphics and toolbars.

The only solution would be to use "realvga" software on your device, but that kinda complicates the "plug and play" lure of the RedFly. You can't easily toggle between different resolution modes; it usually involves a soft reset, many programs use vga- or qvga-specific themes that would need to be switched etc.

Too bad, because that demo actually made the RedFly look interesting, especially the Excel Mobile part. For qvga users only, I guess.

[jeisner]

Myself (gadget geek) I just can't see myself buying this device over my eeePC, it has some advantages but not enugh to outweigh the advantages of the eeePC for me..

At work (corporate environment) it has promise but still not everyone uses WM phones, I think we are going to be buying quiet a few eeePCs to give people portable computers when out of the office(instead of laptops), this device just isn't quiet right for that situation, as they want to use VPN and windows apps not WM apps...

Cool device, but just overpriced IMO when compared to the hardware in an eeePC, and really only practical for a rather small niche group..

[Russ Smith]

RobrechtV: I'm not sure I understand what you're thinking. It looks to me that the REDFLY's rendering routine essentially fools the device into thinking it has a much larger screen (which it does on the REDFLY). I don't see how the resolution of the WM device would matter at all.

[RobrechtV]

RobrechtV: I'm not sure I understand what you're thinking. It looks to me that the REDFLY's rendering routine essentially fools the device into thinking it has a much larger screen (which it does on the REDFLY). I don't see how the resolution of the WM device would matter at all.

Well, because on the vga models every graphical element and font is double the height and width (resolution wise). If an icon is 16x16 pixels on a qvga device, a vga device will have a 32x32 version of that icon. In practice, however, vga and qvga screens are more or less the same physical size (because the pixels are much smaller on vga screens) so the higher resolution translates to sharper, not larger graphics.

Now the RedFly's screen is larger and has a higher pixel count than a qvga device, but compared to the Toshiba g900, its pixel count is the same (800x480). So it will be able to fit exactly the same info on that screen as the g900, only a lot bigger (because the RedFly's pixels are larger). The icons will be 32x32, not 16x16 like those from a qvga phone. Same goes for fonts and toolbars. You won't have more space to fit information, just a display for the visually impaired... :)

If you want to see what I mean, just compare screenshots from a qvga and a vga device side by side on your desktop monitor.

[Bacco]

Did anyone attending the show see how an internet browser is rendered? Is it resized as Excel was? Opera specifically, but the question is equally applicable to PIE as well.

After seeing the demo, I this device has potential. There are those occasions where you're in meeting or just out of the office and having the flexibility to use the extra workspace comes in handy.

Thanks.

[Ed@Brighthand]

The REDFLY does look like an enterprise niche device to me.
That's exactly what it's going to be, and it seems to me this is Celio business plan.

What it comes down to is that this device doesn't make much sense for most consumers because to you a $500 laptop costs $500, while to a large company a $500 laptop costs, on average, $3,900 each and every year in software, upgrades, repairs, training, etc.

The Mobile Companion, on the other hand, will have a far lower TCO because it doesn't have the overhead of a laptop.

I think this product makes a great deal of sense for companies who have already setup their executives, salespeople, etc. with WM smartphones, or are thinking about doing so.

[Ed@Brighthand]

Did anyone attending the show see how an internet browser is rendered? Is it resized as Excel was? Opera specifically, but the question is equally applicable to PIE as well.
Yes, I had them show me Brighthand. It was resized to the full screen and the rendering was fine. As good as you get with PIE, anyway.

The Celio people are aware of PIE's limitations and say they are in talks with Opera. Exactly what will come of this I don't know, but I'd suggest anyone who is using a Mobile Companion to give Opera Mobile a try.

[Bacco]

Thanks Ed.

Personally, I really like the concept of having a small, instant-on device that allows me to extend the features of my TyTN II to the next level. I looked at UMPCs, but they're costly and don't have the instant on feature that I crave. Yeah $500 is a lot of money, but come on people...how many times a year do we spend $800 for a new phone? I can really see this along w/the TyTN II lasting a little longer than 9 months :)

[indiekiduk]

I smell a big fat flop. If WE can't even decide if this keyboard/mouse/screen/charger is useful then it has no chance.

Personally I see it just as a bulky keyboard. The extra screen real-estate is useless in 90% of apps - look at the video it just looks silly everything is in the top left. And a bluetooth fold out keyboard is probably much cheaper than this.

[egarayblas]

Was he able to demo how games work on the mobile companion? If it doesn't stretch the screen, then PPC games will just display on a corner portion of the mobile companion's screen?

[Russ Smith]

Well, because on the vga models every graphical element and font is double the height and width (resolution wise).
Not exactly. What you're referring to is (incorrectly) called pixel-doubling which is how Windows Mobile deals with QVGA programs on a VGA-resolution screen. However, if a program is marked as HiDPI to begin with, there is no pixel-doubling.

That means it's all in how the REDFLY renders the screen. If it passes it through the HiDPI/LoDPI resizing, then you might actually get the kind of thing to which you're referring to, but the images that show the REDFLY in action don't appear to be doing that. On the contrary, it's clear from the displays shown that the REDFLY is showing more information than what would fit on the handheld's screen. The image on the handheld screen is the upper-left of the REDFLY's full screen with images and screen elements appearing in their natural size.

That's why I don't think it matters one bit what the extents of the handheld screen are.

It'd be a good question to direct to REDFLY, to be absolutely sure.

[Jason Dunn]

Kirt claims a 9000mA battery?

The battery is actually 4500 mAH - they corrected this after the fact with me via email.

[RobrechtV]

Well, because on the vga models every graphical element and font is double the height and width (resolution wise).
Not exactly. What you're referring to is (incorrectly) called pixel-doubling which is how Windows Mobile deals with QVGA programs on a VGA-resolution screen. However, if a program is marked as HiDPI to begin with, there is no pixel-doubling.

That means it's all in how the REDFLY renders the screen. If it passes it through the HiDPI/LoDPI resizing, then you might actually get the kind of thing to which you're referring to, but the images that show the REDFLY in action don't appear to be doing that. On the contrary, it's clear from the displays shown that the REDFLY is showing more information than what would fit on the handheld's screen. The image on the handheld screen is the upper-left of the REDFLY's full screen with images and screen elements appearing in their natural size.

That's why I don't think it matters one bit what the extents of the handheld screen are.

It'd be a good question to direct to REDFLY, to be absolutely sure.
I wasn't referring to "pixel doubling" but to the actual native (OS) icons on vga devices. Trust me, all graphical elements on a windows mobile vga screen may look the same size as the ones on a qvga device, but they're all twice as high and wide in terms of resolution.

I'm just wondering if the RedFly will be able to resize them on the fly (making them smaller, not bigger) so they don't take up too much screen space. As you said, there's no graphical resizing going on in that demo: it just gives a qvga phone with qvga (small, low res) graphics a lot more screen space (pixels) to play with. If I'd hook up my wvga g900, the RedFly wouldn't be able to make a difference because its screen doesn't have more pixels: they're both 800x480. It would have to resize everything to (smaller) qvga size in order to get the results from the demo.

This is all speculation of course and we'll have to wait for more hands-on reports, but I think it's an interesting question. The qvga/vga difference in windows mobile devices is notoriously complicated...

[alese]

I still think it's overpriced, but there are couple of things that are quite interesting.

With Redfly you can hook any PPC to an external monitor via their VGA out port and you can connect (some?) USB devices, like thumb drives as mass storage again to aby PPC not only the few ones that support VGA out and/or USB host. That can be really usefull...

I also agree that this could be a good device (cheap in terms of TCO) for companies that deployed WM devices to their workers especially if they rely on some custom built software or if they don't need "full" applications.

For all others it comes down to price and the fact that "normal" PPC applications normaly don't cut-it for "real" use, there is just too many compromises and incompatibilities...

[Nurhisham Hussein]

Not exactly. What you're referring to is (incorrectly) called pixel-doubling which is how Windows Mobile deals with QVGA programs on a VGA-resolution screen. However, if a program is marked as HiDPI to begin with, there is no pixel-doubling.

Russ, RobrechtV is absolutely right here. What the HiDPI marker does is tell the OS that a particular program already has the appropriate (double-sized) graphical elements, which will then be rendered as is.

[Russ Smith]

Not exactly. What you're referring to is (incorrectly) called pixel-doubling which is how Windows Mobile deals with QVGA programs on a VGA-resolution screen. However, if a program is marked as HiDPI to begin with, there is no pixel-doubling.

Russ, RobrechtV is absolutely right here. What the HiDPI marker does is tell the OS that a particular program already has the appropriate (double-sized) graphical elements, which will then be rendered as is.

OK. That helps me understand what the real issue is. I thought originally that he was referring to the scaling that's built into Windows Mobile to render LoDPI on the HiDPI screen. I see now that he's referring to the VGA-sized icons that many developers put into their HiDPI aware programs so that the icons are large enough to see well on a VGA-resolution screen. So the salient question is whether the REDFLY driver has the intelligence to recognize HiDPI and LoDPI programs and render the icons appropriately. I can't tell from the displays shown in the demos whether the REDFLY is resizing icons at all or whether it simply renders them into a larger window. I'm also not sure which icon size I'd prefer. QVGA icons at native size would be quite small on an 800x600 screen I'd think. Since VGA-resolution has been around since 2002, I'd hope that the REDFLY designers made some consideration to how to render icons with different native sizes.

Someone needs to ask the REDFLY folks about this to get some definative answer.

[RobrechtV]

Thanks for helping me explain -- I get the feeling I was only making it more and more complicated! :oops: Sorry!

The main attraction of the RedFly-TytnII setup in the demo movie is that it combines the Tytn's LoDPI output with a much larger screen. Small QVGA graphics on a large screen = lots of room to display more content.

Combined with a HiDPI device, however, that advantage would be largely lost. All the icons (from the OS as well as 3rd party programs) would be VGA size. You wouldn't be able to fit much more information on the RedFly's screen than on your ppc's, because despite their physical size difference, the RedFly screen's pixel count is little more than that of a VGA ppc (and in the case of the 800x480 Toshiba g900, it's exactly the same). It would be like watching the same show on a bigger tv: you don't see more, everything just gets bigger.

[Russ Smith]

It does look like the g900 screen would essentially be duplication, only with a larger surface area. The only thing you might be able to gain is to use a smaller magnification in Word or Excel to see more of your document... not really compelling.

What I'd really like to see is a way to leverage the driver and the connection hardware so you could use a much higher resolution screen and with your own mouse, keyboard, etc. Much as I like the tidy, transportable unit, it does seem a bit limiting.

(Almost) totally off topic: Did I read correctly that there is a smartphone that already supports video out? Mobile PowerPoint isn't anywhere near the capabilities of its desktop namesake, but for some presentations, it would work just fine. That was one of the things I like about the REDFLY: It supports external video out.

[Nurhisham Hussein]

(Almost) totally off topic: Did I read correctly that there is a smartphone that already supports video out?

There've been quite a few standalone PDAs with VGA out over the years, including the Axim x50/51v. As of now smartphones with VGA out include, off the top of my head:- HTC Advantage, O2 Flame, the whole i-Mate Ultimate line.