Chris Pirillo on the iPhone vs. Windows Mobile for Business Use [Archive]

Jason Dunn

11-07-2007, 09:00 PM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://chris.pirillo.com/2007/10/30/iphone-vs-windows-mobile-pocket-pc-for-business/' target='_blank'>http://chris.pirillo.com/2007/10/30...c-for-business/</a> </div>"I was a Windows Mobile device user for about seven years. I was against the iPhone at first, thinking my Windows device suited my needs just fine. Then Ponzi bought me the iPhone. MajorDef wrote in to ask which is better for business… a Windows Mobile device, or an iPhone? I am a product tester for Sprint, and recently got my hands on their new HTC Touch mobile device. It’s not a bad device. It’s very small and lightweight. It does everything I need it to do. But it just doesn’t compare to my iPhone. I get frustrated trying to push a button that doesn’t work on these Windows devices. After playing with this Sprint HTC Touch for about five minutes, I literally shook my head and said out loud “How did I ever DO this?”. Keep in mind that for seven years, I was perfectly happy with my Windows devices. Enter my iPhone. It’s not just an amazing media device, it’s a joy to use. It’s smooth, it’s functional, it works the way I never thought it could work. It syncs perfectly with my Outlook, which is where I primarily live with my work. It can share my contacts, calenders and tasks. I can connect it to Exchange. It’s just magic. Is it perfect? Hardly. But, it’s the closest to perfect that any mobile device has ever come." <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Gn5zldAc6sE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed> This is from last week, but I thought it was worth sharing - on a dedicated Windows Mobile site like this one, you might consider this flame bait, but I'm hoping we can have some intelligent discussion on what Chris is saying. As a long-time Windows Mobile user, I think Chris' criticism of the platform has significant merit - he's not just some random user that picked up a Windows Mobile phone for five minutes and said he didn't like it. He's used it for years, is aware of the good and bad, and finally decided he couldn't put up with it any more. That's significant. From my perspective, I've only had about five minutes of hands-on time with an iPhone so I'm not the best person to compare the two. But in my hands on time with the product, it's impossible to deny the beauty and fluidity of the product. Apple did a great job with the design. But look deeper from a business user's perspective: can you process a significant amount of email with no physical keyboard? I know I can't - I absolutely need a keyboard. Can you use it as a business tool without third party applications? No, browser-based widgets are not applications. Perhaps some people can, but I know many of you rely on powerful third party software to get more done. And what about the whole Exchange issue? Chris' comments about how great Outlook/Exchange works with his iPhone were news to me - he didn't really go into details, but mentioned Plaxo. I know some people who won't use Plaxo because it's such a potential privacy nightmare. That's my brief take on the subject - what's yours?

hang5lngbd

11-07-2007, 09:46 PM

He made some excellent statements on the current state of Windows Mobile. Although each new version gets better, the developer's reliance on the previous version really holds the OS back. Why change the appearance of the "ok" button, when Settings / Connections is so confusing, that without a power user to help, most people would never learn how to switch from using wifi to cellular data.

Although the current iPhone is missing crucial components that would make me a purchaser, I'm definately more interested in what the second generation iPhone will bring. With a better keyboard, faster processor, bigger HD, and most importantly 3G. The 2nd iPhone could be my next device if MS doesn't clean up their OS before Apple fixes their 1st gen problems.

-curious side note: Something didn't seem right about his "simple" syncing solution. Does it seem that he may be using plaxo to sync his Outlook to his Mac that syncs with his iPhone. And what part of exchange is syncing with the iPhone if you need plaxo for your contacts and calendar?

ctitanic

11-07-2007, 09:48 PM

I found his video last week and this is what I posted there.

But iPhone is a close platform. Right now there are developers working in the Windows Mobile platform that mimics most of the things that you have seen in iPhone. I know that Apple is thinking about to open the iPhone for developers but so far what I have seen is a closed platform with a locked phone. T-Mobile and AT&T are releasing now phones with windows ce that already include features like the ones in the iPhone.

I would ask Chris just one question, why I should put my business in the hand of a company that I do not trust any more and that is selling a locked phone? Forget about iPhone, why should I buy a locked phone? All my phones are unlocked and I have brought it to T-Mobile and they have helped me to configure them to have it working in their network. Something that is completely the opposite of what I lived in Cingular/AT&T.

If you call their tech support asking for the configuration to set any Windows Mobile Phone to work in their network they simple don't know. And all you are asking is for the IP, Proxy servers, servers and Ports. All that information can be found freely in T-Mobile site. AT&T doing the impossible to lock back the iPhones in every firmware release. Sorry, but I like to own my phone, I do not want to lease it.

(Somebody replied to me that there were hacks to unlock the iPhone so I replied this)

Yes, and I have read enough news when the last firmware was released about people with problems and unlocked companies running to rush a fix to get the iPhones unlocked again. We are talking here about a business. A business can't be going around the web looking for a solution everytime that AT&T release a new firmware. ;)

mikemcw

11-07-2007, 09:55 PM

My first windows mobile device was an ATT Motorola MPX200. Actually, I had an old IPAQ with one of those PC card holders and a Verizon Wireless Aircard deal but I don't count that. I then bought an MPX220, then A samsung I700, then a Samsung I730, then a Tmobile Dash, then an Iphone, then a Samsung I760. Suffice it to say, I have a lot of experience with Windows Mobile and now my Iphone.

Now to the point.

I use both my Iphone and my I760 on a daily basis. There Iphone can do things that Windows Mobile can only dream of, but the Windows Mobile phone is still a more powerful business machine. I love being able to download songs right from Itunes. I have over 1600 contacts and they are very easy to find using the contact app in the Iphone. The small apps in the Iphone are functional and easy to use. The Iphone is intuitive. The data plan for the Iphone is much less, 20 bucks versus 44.95. Plus, I have to pay more to verizon for text messaging. People old and young love my Iphone. They want to hold it, and play with it, it never ceases to amaze me the reaction I get when people see me use it. People don't look twice at the I760. My experience with the Iphone will drive me to buy my first Mac, even though I have three machines already running Vista Ultimate.

I can open and edit documents with my I760. The Voice Command app is built right in and I never knew how handy that darn thing is. I've loaded Pocketinformant, Pocket Diary, and Pocket Plus and they make the I760 a joy to use. The current lack of third party support for the Iphone is a bummer, but it is coming. In my business, I conduct tons of observations of power plant workers and I take all of my handwritten notes in my I760 using phatnotes and phatpad. My IT department supports the I760, not so much the Iphone. Stereo bluetooth is a plus. Iphone does not support it but my I760 does. I love the onscreen keyboard of the Iphone but I also like the tactile feedback of a real keyboard.

Here's the bottom line. The main features that I use on the I760 are mostly software related. As soon as Apple incorporates some of them or opens the phone up to third party developers, I think they have the potential to blow the Windows Mobile device out of the water. But until then, I will be using both phones.

BTW: I still have my Dash! :lol: The Tmobile plan comes with unlimited use of tmobile hot spots and I visit starbucks a lot!

Mike

fmcpherson

11-07-2007, 10:04 PM

Ironically though, many businesses are not adverse to vendor lock-in when it comes to mobile devices. The companies who standardized on Blackberry are often standardized on one carrier that provides that Blackberry service for them and seem to have no problems with the prospect that if they switched carriers they may have to replace all their Blackberries because most have no intention of switching carriers.

Many companies have already established relationships and/or contracts with various carriers and I doubt that a company that has a deal with Verizon is going to dump Verizon just to be able to provide iPhones to their employees. Consequently, the iPhone's lock-in to AT&T is going to be as much of an impediment, perhaps even more of one, than the lack of built-in integration to Exchange.

What I think will be interesting is to see whether the traditional PC-standardization model holds for mobile phones. For the longest time it has held that the computer/environment that a person buys for their home is what they use at work, so if they use Windows at work they'll get Windows at home. It seems that Microsoft is expecting the similar thing to happen with Windows Mobile, though I am skeptical that will be the case. Even the PC model is changing as people are getting fed up with the extra tech support Windows seems to require and are starting to buy Macs even if they use Windows at work.

Dyvim

11-07-2007, 10:07 PM

I have to agree with Chris as to the usability of iPhone vs. Windows Mobile. I recently got an iPhone for my wife (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=57130&highlight=) and it's awesome. It's just so much easier and smoother to use. Now as to whether you can really use it for business, I guess that depends on what your business needs are. I found the Outlook sync to be primitive- it only syncs contacts in your "Contacts" folder (i.e. you can't pick which Contacts folders you wish to sync, it only syncs the default one), and same for Calendar. And if you need some specific 3rd party app, then of course your choice is obvious: the iPhone isn't for you. But 3rd party app support is supposedly coming next year, so the business use scenario for the iPhone may improve.

Example of ease of use of iPhone: Monday we were moving in to a new house and we decided we wanted to order pizza for ourselves and the movers. We have no phone book and don't know any pizza places around here. So I whip out the iPhone, turn it on, go to Maps, pull up our new home address from a bookmark, type "pizza near " before the address and press "Go" (or whatever the button is labeled). And a few seconds later it shows a map with a bunch of pizza restaurants near our house. I find the closest one that isn't a Pizza Hut and select it. It shows like a contact- with name, address, phone #, web page, etc. I tap the phone # and it dials up the pizza place and I order my pizza. How easy is that? I know I could do the same thing from my HTC Advantage or any one of my many Windows Mobile devices using either the Google Maps application or through PIE or other browser, but it would have taken way more screen presses, typing, stylus use, etc. and the results wouldn't have been presented nearly so nicely and it wouldn't have been as easy to dial up the resulting phone #. The iPhone is quite simply a joy to use (in most scenarios). Using my Windows Mobile devices now feels clumsy and awkward, when just a couple weeks ago I was pretty happy with them (in blissful ignorance to the fact that there was something better out there).

My 3rd party app use is mostly limited to apps that fix the sorry built-in apps that Microsoft provides (Like CorePlayer for WMP). But the iPhone's built-in apps suit most of my needs as they are, so I might not need 3rd party apps like I do on my WM devices.

And Chris is also right about Word docs looking way better on the iPhone than in Word Mobile on Windows Mobile. True, you can't edit them without web apps (yet), but they render very similar to how they render in desktop Microsoft Office Word. So it's a great way to check out document attachments to email.

peterf

11-07-2007, 10:18 PM

Wow, There has been a couple times when I wanted to register for this site to say something, but I didn't really feel like it. But this is it. Get this **** off here. He sounds just like those douches on their commercials. **** the iPhone! No one is paying him? Yeah right!

And to Dyvim, have you heard of Windows Live Search? Same exact functionality, it doesn't take a million keypresses either. This site is about Windows Mobile, if you love your iPhone so much and dont like Windows Mobile, why are you even here?

unxmully

11-07-2007, 10:38 PM

Wow, There has been a couple times when I wanted to register for this site to say something, but I didn't really feel like it. But this is it. Get this s**t off here. He sounds just like those douches on their commercials. f*** the iPhone! No one is paying him? Yeah right!

With any luck this will be both your first and last post.

And to Dyvim, have you heard of Windows Live Search? Same exact functionality, it doesn't take a million keypresses either. This site is about Windows Mobile, if you love your iPhone so much and dont like Windows Mobile, why are you even here?

I suspect most people who read this site are grown up enough to see that competition is a good thing. If the success of the iPhone forces Microsoft to get off their backsides and do something with their smartphone dominance other than give it away then everyone will be better off.[quote]

pivaska

11-07-2007, 10:48 PM

I would consider the iPhone if Verizon would handle it. Right now I need my phone in parts of the country where iPhone providers can not or do not reach. Slick, yes but I need the ability to use it when I want.

ctitanic

11-07-2007, 10:51 PM

I'll consider an iPhone if it's sold unlocked and opened to any other service provider. That's my main problem with iPhone. The second problem is being a close platform something that is already in the way to be fixed thanks to Apple because AT&T does not have enough brain to think something like that.

tabi13

11-07-2007, 10:55 PM

I understand how the iPhone interface can totally WOW people. Its fluid and all and has the appeal for smartphone newbies to get attracted to smartphones (though a closed platform that needs to be hacked or jailbreaked for external apps is not really a smartphone otherwise my PSP can also be considered smart!) but a old time Windows mobile user saying this? Its sad!
Yes Windows Mobile can be intimidating for a non power user initially but can a non power user really easily set up his iPhone to work with Exchange? How can a device that is built around a media player be seriously considered a business tool. I ask the Chris to answer these questions.

1. Can you really use the iPhone as a tool for your exchange emails with powerpoint attachments, excel attachments, word attachments. (to edit, make changes, manipulate data in XLS files like you can in Pocket Excel and mail it back: this is linked to point 4)
2. Can the iPhone support voip and be your cell number as well as your office extension over SIP (and or your Voip local number)
3. Can the iphone integrate with GPS to REALLY give you directions relative to your EXACT position?
4. Can a non power user use the iPhone to view, edit excel and word documents (i know a lot of non power WM users that buy WM devices for this purpose alone)
5. Can your iPhone be remotely wiped in case of being lost so company data is not compromised. Can you set up the iphone to sms you if an unauthorized sim is put in?

Yes, the Windows Mobile platform is not perfect and has its glitches but can the iPhone REALLY be used to do even half the things that WM users can do without jailbreakng the device and then using clumsily written applications that are not optimized for the platform since no SDK is available?

Critisize the WM platform, suggest improvements, reiterate EVERYTHING wrong with it, even compare it to Symbian S60 like on the Nokia E Series for a business mobile platform but FOR GODS SAKE DO NOT compare something like the iPhone to it as a business device unless your business is talent scouting for new MUSIC talent just cuz you can use 2 fingers at a time to zoom in to picture and webpages!!

EDIT
And whats all this about Contacts being easy to find in iPhone. It just scrolls through the whole list in a fluid motion. What else? Is everyone forgetting the smartdialer that comes builtin with WM Standard devices and can be installed on WM Professional devices that not only matches your contact names through T9 style input but at the same time, also the phone numbers (incase you just start dialing a number from memory) and it ALSO searches in your received, dialled and missed call list for numbers that are not in your contacts. I yet have to see anything as useful in ANY other Contact search/integration. This is an area WM wins HANDS down (even if functionality is not builtin, alteast we are not waiting for someone to unlock the platform, release the SDK so that this functionality can be provided)
How can someone who has been using WM for 7 years fall for gimicks like a scrolling list for contacts and declare it the better alternate unless they were paid for it!! (And to Chris and all other like him, get SPB Pocket Plus 4 and Smart Scroll all you like but tell me if its better than Smart Dialer)

Dyvim

11-07-2007, 11:04 PM

This site is about Windows Mobile, if you love your iPhone so much and dont like Windows Mobile, why are you even here?

Chill out peterf. Why don't you check my posting history to see why I'm here. This thread should be about comparing the 2 platforms and whether or not there is a valid case for use of the iPhone as your business device instead of Windows Mobile.

And it's not my iPhone.

And yeah, I have heard of Windows Live Search. It's a step forward but still behind the iPhone IMO.

netboy

11-07-2007, 11:15 PM

Iphone is a joke! Iphone is for computer lliterate! When my bro or coworkers see me playing with my windows mobile. they said this to me, "wow! is this the iphone?" just cus it' has a touchscreen on it!
Greeks and business men dont use iphone! Iphone is just a toy!
name 1 thing that iphone can do and my windows mobile cant.
and i can name 10 things windows mobile can do, and iphone cant.

unxmully

11-07-2007, 11:31 PM

netboy

11-07-2007, 11:35 PM

Jason Dunn

11-07-2007, 11:37 PM

Get this s**t off here. He sounds just like those douches on their commercials. f*** the iPhone! No one is paying him? Yeah right!

If you've been a long-time reader, I thank you for that, but you should know that f-bomb dropping in our forums isn't appreciated or appropriate. I'm sure you can make your point without resorting to cursing.

This site is about Windows Mobile, if you love your iPhone so much and dont like Windows Mobile, why are you even here?

I enjoy using Windows Mobile, but I believe it can be radically improved on many levels, and if the success of the iPhone forces Microsoft to improve their OS, then I welcome it and so should you.

unxmully

11-07-2007, 11:37 PM

Iphone is a joke! Iphone is for computer lliterate! When my bro or coworkers see me playing with my windows mobile. they said this to me, "wow! is this the iphone?" just cus it' has a touchscreen on it!
Greeks and business men dont use iphone! Iphone is just a toy!
name 1 thing that iphone can do and my windows mobile cant.
Does visual voicemail work on a windows mobile phone?
and i can name 10 things windows mobile can do, and iphone cant.

Good lord. The PocketPCThoughts.com gene pool could definitely do with a dose of chlorine.

unxmully

11-07-2007, 11:40 PM

People drive Mercedes to do business. i guess this site should talk about Mercedes too?

Nope. I read that a couple of times and each time it made no sense.

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

Jason Dunn

11-07-2007, 11:40 PM

Let's try to keep this thread polite people, even if we're disagreeing with each other. Thanks.

seaflipper

11-07-2007, 11:43 PM

As a long time WM Smartphone and WM PPC Phone user I have to agree with Chris's points - he speaks to exactly how I feel after getting an iPhone on Sunday and putting my Treo 750 aside.

Sure there are lots of things that could be better (way better in some areas) on the iPhone but with the SDK being released in February I am very confident a lot of those things will get addressed. Additionally I expect Apple to make significant improvements to the device as time goes along.

There are so many things about the iPhone that just make it a killer device. Sure, some of the are the first time "wow" factor things that eventually fade away but I can't bear to pick up my Treo 750 anymore. It's not just my typical device honeymoon period here. There are some truly innovative things about the iPhone that make it so intuitive and easy to use.

I am an Exchange Active Sync Push Email User and that along with the keyboard were my biggest fears in switching. However, I have not found it to be that painful - in fact the keyboard is actually going to be faster to use with a little more practice and IMO way more flexible than a physical keyboard - the idea that the keyboard can adjust based upon the type of typing you are doing is amazing - web vs. email usage etc, it makes so much sense when you start using it. Certainly true Exchange Active Sync would be awesome on the iPhone but even without it the other enhancements that apple has made outweigh these shortcomings - AT LEAST FOR ME. I certainly understand that the iPhone is not for everyone however.

I spent about 2 weeks reading through iPhone forums and finding out what folks thought about the device and what issues they had with the device. I bought the iPhone understanding the limitations and in the end decided that I could live with those limitations for now until 3rd party apps start coming out in the spring.

Mark Larson

11-08-2007, 12:12 AM

Windows Mobile has stagnated, and MS needs a righteous kick in the seat. Hopefully the iPhone and OHA will be the ones to provide that kick.

ddwire

11-08-2007, 12:37 AM

I have been playing with a Sprint touch for a couple hours and am writing this post on it. I think the usability thing is over played. I was always told that Palm was so much easier than WM. I had a Treo 700p for 6 months total hog wash.. then switched to the 700wx.I have been using WM since the begining 1997. Compaq C140.Philips Nino. Casio E200. Hitachi G1000. PPC6601. Treo700WX. I think this touch is a winner but an on screen keyboard or hand writing recognition will never be a better replacment for a physical keyboard. You I phone lovers should give the Sprint Touch a try.

RogueSpear

11-08-2007, 12:44 AM

Windows Mobile has stagnated, and MS needs a righteous kick in the seat.
Thank God there are others out there who feel this way. I feel like I've been screaming at a brick wall for years now about this.

I've never even tried out someone's iPhone for five minutes, never even had one in my hand in an AT&T or Apple store, but even so I think it's the greatest and most influential device to come out in years. If for no other reason than the competition it represents. It wasn't that long ago that Palm had over 80% market share. And there I was with my HP clamshell WinCE v1.0 device (like an idiot). Palm stagnated and were quite content with themselves for a long time. Hopefully there are a couple of people in Redmond that remember this.

I really like a lot of things about the WM system such as the huge amount of software (Palm had this at one time) and the ease of development of software for the WM environment (not sure how easy it was for Palm). But for the love of God, Microsoft has advanced it's mobile operating system and even the hardware specs at a rate that makes the continental drift seem downright speedy.

The iPhone as we know it today is VERSION ONE! And it's already pretty good. Just imagine what version 2 will bring. Just imagine what would happen if Steve poked a hole in his belly button so he could see that 100% of iPhone users want third party apps without resorting to hacks. How many years has it been since CE 1.0? Ok giving the benefit of the doubt, how long has it been since PocketPC 1.0? Now where do you think Apple will be that many years from now?

Lastly, I am especially eager to see what Android will bring to the table. Lots of advertising I'm sure, but I'm also fairly confident that it will bring a wealth of free and open source third party applications which will be a welcome relief from having to spend several hundred dollars on what I consider to essential applications and utilities as a WM user.

Yata

11-08-2007, 12:51 AM

I'm not a business user but here's my perspective...

I've played with one and been totally blown away by the interface. It's beautiful and it follows every UI best practice in the book. It's simply a joy to use. It's also very clear that it's a v1 product and it's made by a very US-centric company. There's too many features that I regularly rely on for me to consider it. This ranges from the big and well-known issues like the lack of 3G and Bluetooth profiles (apart from headset). But there's way too many little niggles too - such as not being able to forward SMS and send SMS to multiple recipients. Things that an American might not find important but many people around the world expect on even a $30 phone.

I'm waiting for the 2nd generation iPhone. Hopefully we'll see GPS, HSPDA and 3rd party applications. Hopefully Apple will also tightened the security.

But even then I'll still be hesitant about buying one. For a company whose motto is "think different", Apple seem hell-bent on making people do things their way. I like the freedom of an unlocked phone and I like the freedom of choosing my carrier. I can't imagine spending £269 on a phone either, not when phones like the Nokia N95 8GB are available for free.

I wonder how HTC's new Google Phone will shape up against it? :)

tabi13

11-08-2007, 01:32 AM

Janak Parekh

11-08-2007, 01:44 AM

Having said that I would admit that there is NO way would I make a claim that WM make better Media Devices specially since right now WM is a platform and the different devices have different audio quality and playback potential depending on hardware whereas the iPhone is a ACTUAL device which has been PERFECTED for media use.
That is precisely the reason we're having a discussion about the iPhone vs. WM in the business setting. In the media setting, there's really no competition.

The discussion was about whether it is a better BUSINESS device than the devices based on WM platform which is MOST definately is not!
As long as we have a good debate on why this is the case, it's fine. However, let me give you one simple, incredibly critical scenario that the iPhone does, reliably, that is key for business purposes -- and that Windows Mobile does not:

Reliable alarms.

I. Simply. Don't. Get. Microsoft. On. This. One. Microsoft has done an excellent job adapting WM for business on many, many other use cases. But this is simply unforgivable at this point.

(Disclaimer: this comes from about 7 years of experience with every Pocket PC from 2000 to WM5. I haven't used WM6 devices extensively enough to gauge the reliability of alarms there.)

--janak

Mark Larson

11-08-2007, 01:47 AM

Here's a fact for you arguers - Windows Mobile can not stay stuck in business-land for ever, people want consumer devices. 95% of the population is not assigned phones from their work, and even if they are, they usually have a personal cell as well.

Staying in the mindset that catering to the .biz environment is NOT going to help WM. I can count on one hand the number of people I've seen who had phones assigned to them, and almost all of these were Blackberrys or Nextels. Guess what, most people hate these phones and don't buy them for personal use, that's why RIM has come out with the Curve, Pearl, BIS etc.

Its time for MS to evolve.

And I do agree that the MS SmartDialer is the best thing to happen to contacts, ever.

Mark Larson

11-08-2007, 01:49 AM

Janak Parekh

11-08-2007, 01:49 AM

But look deeper from a business user's perspective: can you process a significant amount of email with no physical keyboard? I know I can't - I absolutely need a keyboard.
Forget that -- triaging email with the iPhone Mail app is extremely cumbersome even as a touch UI.

And what about the whole Exchange issue? Chris' comments about how great Outlook/Exchange works with his iPhone were news to me - he didn't really go into details, but mentioned Plaxo. I know some people who won't use Plaxo because it's such a potential privacy nightmare. That's my brief take on the subject - what's yours?
As an extensive user of both WM and iPhone, I think it boils down what you call business "business". In the enterprise scenario, there is no contest, and I doubt there will be one in the immediate future -- WM's integration with Exchange is killer. In the SOHO environment, however, I think the iPhone, as a simple, reliable "smartphone" may jive well with users. To some extent, this will also depend on how much Apple opens up the API.

(In some sense, this is very similar to the Mac platform. Macs are great for home environments and in some business contexts. They actually interoperate decently in Windows environments, too. But when you need a large-scale, Active Directory+Exchange-driven corporate workflow, standardized and flexible PC inventory management, etc., they don't scale quite so well. And, I say this as someone who doesn't use Windows at work.)

--janak

cipher64

11-08-2007, 02:27 AM

iPhone is the best thing that might have ever happened to you if you are moving up from a dumb phone. But, compared to windows mobile iPhone just offers a better user interface. Can you really compare static maps to real time GPS navigation? Live search is great, it can even recalculate routes, available with speech recognition. Seriously besides a touch interface what new does iPhone provide :-/

RogueSpear

11-08-2007, 02:40 AM

That is precisely the reason we're having a discussion about the iPhone vs. WM in the business setting. In the media setting, there's really no competition.
This whole seperation of business from media just seems a little bogus to me. I use my 3975 for both. I will not purchase a PMP, MP3 player, iPod, dedicated GPS device like a TomTom, or anything else because I think a WM device should be able to handle them all. As you may have guessed I really don't want an iPhone on side of my belt and a Tilt on the other.

stuxstu

11-08-2007, 03:45 AM

Yes the iPhone is neat. Yes it has a slick interface. Yes it is a pretty cool design. I care nothing for those things. My phone does not need to be a status symbol. At this point I just want to come back to WM from BlackBerry hell. I need the BB to get company email (40-100 a day).

Most of the business people I know live on their phone. Email, Contacts, Calendar, informaion. I need activesync, because I don't like having to tell my phone to sync. I just pop it in the cradle and a few minutes later I am done. All these things are what companies find important, not whether it is a conversation piece. I don't have time to sit and listen to music.

So I am happy that the iPhone came along, MS will now need to step up and improve the interface. Apple will never really open up thier devices to the world. Haven't done so with the MAC, iPod and will not do so with the iPhone. They like a closed system.

Just my worthless opinion.....

whydidnt

11-08-2007, 04:53 AM

I think if the question is can the iPhone replace my WM phone for business use the answer is "It depends". If you define business use as OTA Exchange Sync, Send and receive a lot of email and need to edit documents on the fly the a WM device with a hard keyboard is going to provide a lot better solution. If however, you can rely on IMAP for email, and primary email use is to read and provide short replies and only really need to sync to Outlook for contacts and such, then the iPhone could be a decent solution. For me business refers to the first description above and I don't see anyway the iPhone would meet my business needs. However, in my not too distant past my use would have fit into the iPhone category.

Let's not forget that we can now purchase WM devices with built in GPS, and you can't do that with an iPhone. For me that's a huge benefit when traveling for business. AND don't get me started on the difference in connection speeds using a 3G WM device compared to the iPhone. I needed to download an almost 10 MB presentation last week, I can't imagine how long that would have taken on the iPhone.

I think many of the WM UI issues are caused by the ever smaller screens we are dealing with. If we had a nice WM phone with a 3.5" VGA touch screen, then the internet, document viewing, email reading experience Chris mentions in his video become much more enjoyable on the WM device. Once again, I think it's the OEM's fault as much as MS's. I've have an HTC Advantage and for portable email and web access it's very good. It's too big for me to use as a daily driver though. If they could shrink similar WM functionality into an iPhone sized device it might be a winner. There are already on-screen keyboards that provide similar functionality to the iPhone, I'm certain they aren't as refined, but also suspect we would see enhancements there if there was a higher demand for on-screen keyboard usage.

Finally, the latest version of Windows Live Search is a huge winner, especially on a device with built-in GPS. I was in Houston last week and my ATT Tilt quit charging. Between client visits I simply lauched WLS voice searched for Cingular and was promptly routed to an ATT Wireless store about 2 miles from where I was. At the store they determined it was the phone not the battery that was the culprit, but the phone itself, they pulled a charged battery from another Tilt box and swapped it with me so I at least had a phone to use for the rest of my trip. I think the GPS integration makes this device even more useful than what you can do with the iPhone application.

tnels!

11-08-2007, 05:49 AM

I am an old guy. That said, I remember people saying that DOS PCs were never going to be good for business because they where underpowered didn't communicate well with the mainframe. Then I remember people saying that graphic user interfaces like the Apple Lisa was not necessary for business use, after all, who needs a mouse for heads down data entry?! Then who needs Windows when DOS and Novell works just fine?

So what is my point? Computer purchasing decisions are >95% emotional. The iPhone may not yield a good ROI, but who cares? After all, it is the coolest gadget out there right now. Jobs seems to be a genius at knowing what pulls that the consumer's heart strings. He seems to understand that the best way to sell something is to have the customer fall in love the product. It sure appears that people love the iPhone! Congratulations to Jobs for competing and winning!

I will stick to my Sprint Mogul right now because of the $15/mo all you can eat data plan and the WM6 3rd party software. But I have installed Pocket CM and have fallen in love the touch interface.

Dyvim

11-08-2007, 05:51 AM

I think many of the WM UI issues are caused by the ever smaller screens we are dealing with. If we had a nice WM phone with a 3.5" VGA touch screen, then the internet, document viewing, email reading experience Chris mentions in his video become much more enjoyable on the WM device.

I respectfully disagree. I have been a big user of and fan of VGA devices since they first arrived (moving from a Toshiba e800 to e830 to HTC Advantage this year). I won't even consider a QVGA WM device to be my daily driver any more and I don't care for a screen less than 4". But none of the aforementioned WM devices can compare to internet, document viewing and email reading on the (effectively HVGA at 480x320) iPhone. Certainly the pixels do make a difference and an iPhone with a 240x320 pixel screen would not look that great, but it's also the rendering. And iPhone renders these 3 things better than WM 6 or any prior WM version. And all of the VGA devices I have used suffer from screen lag- there are times when there is noticeable lag while the device repaints. I guess this is the hardware manufacturer's fault for not using fast enough CPUs or GPUs or whatever, but in this day and age there's simply no excuse for it. The HTC Advantage is no better with screen lag than the 2004 model e830 and probably worse than the 2004 model Dell Axim x50v (which had a nice graphics card).

For fairness, I repeated my iPhone Google Maps pizza ordering test using Google Maps on my Advantage. The Google Map on the Advantage looks much worse than on the iPhone despite having twice the pixels to work with (although I suppose this is Google's fault and they didn't put the same effort into the WM version as into the iPhone version) and the UI in the maps (in terms of displaying the results and not allowing you to dial or browse the search results) is crude in comparison.

Windows Mobile clearly has much more potential than the iPhone. That's what kills me- the potential has been there for about a decade now, but it still has yet to be fully realized. I really want MS to get crackin' and come up with some real improvements to their mobile OS, which I feel they've really let languish for the past 4 years.

I suppose as a developer for WM, I should be happy with the clunkiness and other issues- they mean more work for me to provide solutions to people. But as a fan of the platform, WM has been disappointing me of late. Especially after Apple has shown just how cool and slick a mobile OS UI can be. Does it do half of what a WM device can do? Not even close. But what it does do, it mostly does extremely well and it does have a few tricks that WM cannot do (such as visual voicemail and properly rendering websites).

signothefish

11-08-2007, 07:20 AM

The iPhone has several things going for it, namely:
* Elegant styling
* Beautiful and easy-to-use UI
* Big high-resolution screen
* Marketing

Some may argue that Windows Mobile's shortfall is the smaller screens and QVGA, however even VGA and larger screens have not proven popular. Pocket Office apps are a joke, and the UI is not user-friendly. All of the WM devices I've ever used are chock full of performance and functionality problems. The OS itself has bugs that are years old, and yes WM6 STILL contains the alarm bugs Janak mentioned earlier.

Some have claimed that Smartdial is better than the iPhone contact scroller. While I tend to agree, a friend of mine at a party last Saturday showed me his new Blackberry, which has voice recognition for contacts WITHOUT needing to record a voice command for them. Microsoft seems to have picked up on this technology with their latest Live Search that includes voice recognition, which shames Google Maps. Maybe the next generation WM devices will have this capability for more than just Live Search. Like the Blackberry, I would like to see it for contacts, but would also like to see it for appointments and tasks, and eventually notes.

But even more, Microsoft needs to change their direction. I really think the blame lies on both Microsoft and HTC, both for lack of innovation and vision, as well as marketing. I'm really hoping the iPhone has awoken the sleeping giants, and they're currently working some things that will help you fall in love with THEIR new generation of devices. Otherwise, WM will go the direction of Palm (it already seems to be doing so).

halamjin

11-08-2007, 07:31 AM

Reliable alarms.

I. Simply. Don't. Get. Microsoft. On. This. One. Microsoft has done an excellent job adapting WM for business on many, many other use cases. But this is simply unforgivable at this point.

(Disclaimer: this comes from about 7 years of experience with every Pocket PC from 2000 to WM5. I haven't used WM6 devices extensively enough to gauge the reliability of alarms there.)

Heh, heh. Posted today: http://www.smartphonethoughts.com/news/show/23421/wm-6-alarm-clock-grrr.html

i dont want to register at smartphone thoughts but i would like to help Pete Paxton - this is how i solve the alarm problem... after editing the alarm and pressing the ok button - leave the ppc so that it turns off by itself - the new settings should stick

bout the iphone debate - i dont have an iphone but i do have an ipod touch and the htc touch - i have to say that one of the advantage of iphone/ipod touch is the sensitivity of the touch screen - typing on the ipod touch is way much better than the htc touch with phonepad or pocketcm keyboard

jeasher

11-08-2007, 08:07 AM

I just bought a new phone from AT&T and for me the choice was clear. I bought a Tilt (after using a QTEK 9100 for two years) because:

1. I like a physical keyboard.
2. I want to be able to view and edit Office docs.
3. I like having 3rd party software available if I choose.
4. I like having a removable battery and not paying Apple's BS exchange fee.
5. I wanted a 3G phone.
6. I liked the idea of having GPS should I ever need it.
7. I wanted to be able to use Slingbox Mobile (coolest software ever).

I'm sure future versions of the iPhone will give WM devices a run for their money, but right now the iPhone is for the masses and not for people in the know. There's no question the iPhone does a lot of things right but it's just not enough for a business/power user at this time.

unxmully

11-08-2007, 12:34 PM

How can a device that is built around a media player be seriously considered a business tool.

Help me out here, I seem to have missed something. When did this site become PocketPcsAreOnlyAllowedToBeUsedForBusiness.com?

My boss just bought his wife an iPhone for personal use, not business. I don't use my phone to access mail because it then becomes hard to separate work from life. The other three people in my house don't use phones for work.

So why is it that you can only see the iPhone as a business tool and not a phone with an in-built iPod/an iPod with an in-built phone? Apple certainly don't sell it that way.

I WILL help you out cuz you HAVE missed something. At the very start of the post there is "Then Ponzi bought me the iPhone. MajorDef wrote in to ask which is better for business… a Windows Mobile device, or an iPhone?"
and
"Apple did a great job with the design. But look deeper from a business user's perspective: "
and finally
"but I'm hoping we can have some intelligent discussion on what ..."

OK, I'll give you that one. I missed that one sentence out of the whole page of discussion of the relative merits of the devices.

However, the original point is still flawed. The ancestors of the current Windows Media SmartPhones had their abilities to play music and Video as significant elements of their usability over Palm devices. Why should different rules be applied to Apple when they make essentially the same move?

And of course, I'm sure Apple and Nokia plus all the other non-MS aligned mobile manufacturers will be more than happy for WM to continue to be seen as a business only platform. After all that probably leaves them with only 90%+ of the available market.

But how can an intelligent discussion be had with someone who can not even read.

I'll ignore that.

Having said that I would admit that there is NO way would I make a claim that WM make better Media Devices specially since right now WM is a platform and the different devices have different audio quality and playback potential depending on hardware whereas the iPhone is a ACTUAL device which has been PERFECTED for media use.

No, I don't think that's right. Apple under Steve Jobs clearly has a philosphy that says just good enough is not good enough. Everything they ship has to work as well as it can or the won't ship it. Look back at what he did to the Newton for an example.

Microsoft has a philosphy that says good enough to beat the opposition is good enough. And that's why there are so many regular posters on here, including the site owner, expressing a desire that the iPhone will make Microsoft work harder at making WM better.

The discussion was about whether it is a better BUSINESS device than the devices based on WM platform which is MOST definately is not!

AND PLEASE read entire posts and origin of discussion before you start replying picking up 1 line in someone's post!!!

I quote one line from your post because it was the only line I wanted to comment on. if I'd included the whole thing, it would have been cut down by a moderator. Just because I only quoted one line don't get on your high horse and assume I didn't read the rest of your message.

hamishmacdonald

11-08-2007, 12:52 PM

From what I can tell (being in the UK and not having seen an iPhone yet), the iPhone is meant for consumers. Literally: it's meant for people who want to consume. It's for browsing, searching, and especially buying.

As someone who wants to create on my mobile device (e.g. write articles and novels), I have no use for the iPhone in its current form.

virain

11-08-2007, 01:05 PM

Question of the century - What is better for business? Is it iPhone or WM PPC? I would have to say they both are excellent business tools, even 5 years old dumb phone can be a very good business tool, if you use as it was meant to be used. I am telling it as a business owner. FYI: investments, financial services. I use WM PPC phone, my partner has a Motorola RAZR, and he is more productive with this thing, then I could ever be. He does most of sales and public relations stuff, I do all the back office, and manage portfolio. Someone mentioned Mercedes as a business tool. Yes it is, when you need to impress a client. So the right question would be: What is better in this particular situation, iPhone or PPC?
Yes, iPhone has a better interface, but I do like "Today Screen" of WM, it can be customized, I use SPB Mobile Shell, I like it, it's very useful. Someone may disagree with me? The beauty is in hands of a beholder. Get over it. But WM DOES need not just a facelift but a major plastic sergery. It's been pretty much unchange since CE 1.0
What do I think about iPhone? It's a trendy thing. Give it sometime, people get use to it, it is not going to impress anyone, just another phone, another OS. We have WM, Symbian, Palm still there, iPhone OX, Sidekick's Danger, Google's Android is comming up. As far as topic of how many clicks would it take to find a pizza near by, why to ckick? Live Search has voice command imbeded (not sure if this is the right word but you got the point) just say "Pizza". Another interesting thing I have noticed, and it is not only users of this forum: Some so called WM enthusiasts are ripping their bear chest with their bear hands to bloody mess "Gimme QWERTY keyboard or give me death!" (read I would never buy one without it) That, of course, goes for WM devices, but when it is about iPhone, there's nothing better than on-screen keyboard! Of course, how many input options does iPhone have? Maybe if you put as much effort into learning how to use Transcriber, you wouldn't be so enthusiastic about a keyboard. Yes, iPhone's keyboard better suited to use with fingers, but WM's one was ment to be used with stylus from the begining, and there are options for finger use are available let's say the same PocketCM keyboard. And after all, it is, like I said before, trendy thing to admire iPhone, it is trendy thing to hate Microsoft. I mean read topics, if I was a new to the market, after reading all of the posts I would never want anything to do with WM devices!
As far as developers, visiting this site, I don't understand, MS gives you opportunity to do whatever you what with interface, Change it! improve it! Put your imagination and skills to work! Make money, after all! And some do. Others, somehow, prefer to complain in blog rooms, demanding from MS to do what they could do themself and cash in on it! Of course it would take some knowledge beyond "Hello World!" in C#. I can do that too, but it doesn't qualifies me as a Developer.
And at last. I've noticed that whenever something new comes up in WM world, all you can hear is Outcry to bring the "good old times" back, that of course if it doesn't come from MS competitors s.a. Apple. So, if MS people reading these blogs, they would probably think why bother to make changes, nobody wants them anyway. So, maybe if we were concentrating on things that WM team at MS does right and help them to improve our favorite OS, instead of bashing them with sometimes unexplainable conservatism, we would see better interface already.
Cheers.

virain

11-08-2007, 01:20 PM

Some have claimed that Smartdial is better than the iPhone contact scroller. While I tend to agree, a friend of mine at a party last Saturday showed me his new Blackberry, which has voice recognition for contacts WITHOUT needing to record a voice command for them. Microsoft seems to have picked up on this technology with their latest Live Search that includes voice recognition, which shames Google Maps. Maybe the next generation WM devices will have this capability for more than just Live Search. Like the Blackberry, I would like to see it for contacts, but would also like to see it for appointments and tasks, and eventually notes.

Have you heard about Voice Command from Microsoft? It's beem out for a few years, and it goes even as far as to application and device status such as signal strenght and battery

michaelalanjones

11-08-2007, 01:59 PM

My wife has an iPhone. I have a Treo 750. I considered the iPhone for myself, but I am a developer, and I need to be able to read/modify Excel, Word and Powerpoint.

For example, I recently was assigned to a new project, and I was given 50(?) or so documents to look at, e.g., use cases, requirements, vendor stuff, demos (in Powerpoint). On the weekend, I am not interested in lugging my notebook around to read those docs. But I can read one or two docs, or watch a slide show, while I wait for my wife to shop. That works for me.

But my wife? She owns an antique business that doesn't revolve around spreadsheets and word docs. Heck, she doesn't even sync her iPhone to her Mac - she never has. I activated her iPhone on my PC at work. She is not interested in having MP3's on her phone - she has none! She enters phone numbers into her phone by hand, instead of syncing them from Entourage (Mac's version of Outlook). She just wanted a nice phone that works and is easy to use.

If Apple updates the iPhone so that it will read Word docs, Excel and Powerpoint, I would probably buy one, but then again, I also need a keyboard, which is why I chose the Treo. And I am simply not interested in the Tilt-style (landscape) phones. I like the portrait format - heck, I don't want another notebook.

signothefish

11-08-2007, 03:01 PM

Have you heard about Voice Command from Microsoft? It's beem out for a few years, and it goes even as far as to application and device status such as signal strenght and battery

You know what, virain? As long as I've owned WM devices, I've never used Voice Command. Thanks to your description, I think I'll read up on it. Something inside me said "I bet Microsoft actually does have that capability", and sure enough I should have listened to it.

whydidnt

11-08-2007, 03:54 PM

For fairness, I repeated my iPhone Google Maps pizza ordering test using Google Maps on my Advantage. The Google Map on the Advantage looks much worse than on the iPhone despite having twice the pixels to work with (although I suppose this is Google's fault and they didn't put the same effort into the WM version as into the iPhone version) and the UI in the maps (in terms of displaying the results and not allowing you to dial or browse the search results) is crude in comparison.

I suggest you try the same search using the latest version of Windows Live Search on your advantage. If you are looking for a nice map, with the ability to dial your results, it's all there, and with your Advantage the GPS integration is fantastic. Point your mobile browser to wls.live.com and check it out. The latest version of WLS absolutely crushes Google Maps as far as functionality/usability, IMO.

Also, have you enabled hi-resolution support in your web browser? I have not extensively used an iPhone browser (only about 5 minutes at an ATT store) but I found all the tapping and scrolling a bit distracting on the iPhone. My biggest complaint about browsing on the Advantage is the relatively slow page rendering time - compared to a full PC. I don't think the iPhone with EDGE only support is going to help me there, though. :mrgreen:

Dyvim

11-08-2007, 04:53 PM

I suggest you try the same search using the latest version of Windows Live Search on your advantage. If you are looking for a nice map, with the ability to dial your results, it's all there, and with your Advantage the GPS integration is fantastic. Point your mobile browser to wls.live.com and check it out. The latest version of WLS absolutely crushes Google Maps as far as functionality/usability, IMO.

Ok, gave the latest version of WLS a try. I agree that it is cool and beats Google Maps hands down.

I said "pizza near ### STREETNAME CITY ZIP" and I got:

Did you say this location?
1 ###01

so it picked up the ### from the street address ok but flubbed everything else. And I have no idea where the other digits came from. Great.

But once I mapped to my home and then said "pizza" it did work properly. But here's the thing: In typical Windows fashion, the UI is kind of a pain in the butt: The results shows the pizzeria I want with the phone # in green. I tap on the phone # expecting it to dial, and it then brings up that single result full screen, again with the phone # highlighted in green. So I tap the phone # again expecting it to dial. Then a message box appears asking me if I want to call the #, Yes or No? Arggh! Well, duh- yes please dial the # for me finally. And it does. So yeah it does the same thing as the iPhone and more- the voice stuff is cool when it works plus I can use the Advantage's GPS (if I can get a signal, but that's another issue), but it's just not as easy to use. The pizza search takes longer when you're doing it for the first time. The cool thing about the iPhone is that there's a low learning curve and you can do it all with your finger and no stylus (but yes there are times when I wish I had the option to use a stylus on the iPhone for more exact tapping).

Also, have you enabled hi-resolution support in your web browser? I have not extensively used an iPhone browser (only about 5 minutes at an ATT store) but I found all the tapping and scrolling a bit distracting on the iPhone.
Yes, I've enabled hi-resolution support. It's not a question of the resolution, which on the Advantage is clearly superior. It's a question of the browser's web page rendering engine. And I find I have to scroll around more on the Advantage than on the iPhone. Or maybe it just seems that way because I have to use the stylus on the scroll bars (fat fingers and no jog dial on the Advantage and the VueFlow thingie on the Advantage always scrolls too fast [lowering the sensitivity helps] and in the opposite direction of how I intuit it should go) and can only scroll either horizontally or vertically at a time, not diagonally at any angle as I can with a simple finger swipe on the iPhone. So maybe I actually do scroll more on the iPhone, it just takes me less time and less effort to do it, so I don't notice it as much.
My biggest complaint about browsing on the Advantage is the relatively slow page rendering time - compared to a full PC. I don't think the iPhone with EDGE only support is going to help me there, though. :mrgreen:
In my 3G-less area, Advantage with 3G support and no 3G available still only uses EDGE. :mrgreen: I haven't tested browsing with EDGE on the Advantage too much, but in a head-to-head over WiFi vs. iPhone and Opera on the Advantage (with Opera set to identify as a desktop) I did just now, iPhone wins hands down. (More importantly, the web page rendered by the iPhone is easier to browse through than on the Advantage regardless of the load time- which was still faster.) So the Advantage seems to have slow page rendering times compared to iPhone as well as to a full PC. But yeah, waiting for pages to load on the iPhone via EDGE can be a pain - but I'd guess they'd only be worse on the Advantage. Clearly gen 2 of the iPhone needs to have 3G support for those areas that are lucky enough to have 3G networks.

CTSLICK

11-08-2007, 04:58 PM

Have you heard about Voice Command from Microsoft? It's beem out for a few years, and it goes even as far as to application and device status such as signal strenght and battery

And yet MS has not updated Voice Command to work without issues on WM6. Odd. I am very impressed with it on my wife's 700WX with WM5. Not so much on my Mogul.

Back to the original question...WM or iPhone for business. For me the iPhone was DOA due to the lack of a clear solution for Exchange and support for Office files. That and the fact the our IT Dept simply will not do anything to support an iPhone kind of leaves one with little choice. My Mogul performs reasonably though it does have some warts (bluetooth problems most notably and some memory management issues). But again, it handles everything I have thrown at it for business purposes to an acceptable level. Not outstanding...just acceptable.

But make no mistake that the iPhone is a brilliant piece of hardware and the interface has some very nice stuff. The things Apple chose to bring to market on the iPhone are really polished high end stuff. Not acceptable...outstanding. I am thankful that Apple brought it to market... Microsoft, HTC etc etc can and should take some lessons from it and copy them unabashedly.

LordFuzzy

11-08-2007, 06:35 PM

Wow people some of you are really passionate about your mobile devices. I have used one form or another of a WM Device since my freshman year in college over 7 years ago. I think we have wandered away from the true purpose of these devices which was organization. I was able to track my classes, take notes, send IM's (with the use of a compact flash wifi card), and get reminders of stupid things that i forgot. Then came the introduction of the Smartphone/PDA Hybrids. As most of us can agree those earlier device, although ground breaking, were HORRIBLE DEVICES. In the past 2 years there has been a flood of new devices and uses for our Hybrid Phones. I say Hybrid because thats what they are. They are no longer a phone, no longer a PDA, and no longer a simple MP3/Video Player. We are a society of gadgets and just because Apple came up with a great interface does not make the iPhone the all superior Hybrid Phone. I can do 10 times the amount of things with my WM device then i could ever do with an iPhone (i borrowed a friends for a week to try it out, gave it back in 2 days.). Having a built in MP3 player is a great feature but thats all it is. I have my phone for the purpose of work and play, but i also know that i can't allow my phone to go dead because i need it. On a plane the other day i turned on Windows Media Player to listen to music during the flight and i have 80% battery or more. By the end of the 1hour and 30 minute flight my battery was at 20%, i then stopped the media player. By the time i got to my car it was 10%. At what point do you say i need a seperate MP3 player because my phone is always dead.

I am an IT Consultant/Developer so my Phone is my life. I have an ATT 8525 and i use it to test new applicaitons i've designed, mobile websites, and when needed i can turn it into a diagnostic tool to determine whats wrong with a network or computer. And before everyone jumps down my thoat about the so called SDK that Apple is releasing. Do you really think it will have the power of the Compact Framework or have the development tools out there to help you with your development. That will do nothing but open the doors for hackers to mess with the iPhone more.

For my final thoughts all i have to say is it is just an interface. Wait till Microsoft releases WM6.1. That might all of a sudden turn the tables on the ease of use of an iPhone. The only thing different between the iPhone and WM devices is the iPhone has a larger harddrive and you can't swap out batteries if yours goes dead. WM devices have the expansion slot but its just not the same. If there is one thing i would change about WM devices (Not the software but actual devices) is that they should have a minimum of 1gb of storage instead of this 256meg crap. If the iPhone can have 8gb of storage we should at least be able to gave a gig. If you want a phone buy a phone, if you want a Phone/PDA Hybrid buy a Hybrid, and if you want a MP3 player then buy a stupid MP3 player.

Jason Dunn

11-08-2007, 07:31 PM

But here's the thing: In typical Windows fashion, the UI is kind of a pain in the butt: The results shows the pizzeria I want with the phone # in green. I tap on the phone # expecting it to dial, and it then brings up that single result full screen, again with the phone # highlighted in green. So I tap the phone # again expecting it to dial. Then a message box appears asking me if I want to call the #, Yes or No? Arggh! Well, duh- yes please dial the # for me finally. And it does.

That's a great example of how Microsoft needs to give their heads a shake and think more about making things fast and simple for the consumer. I see the same sort of mentality in Vista - waaaaay too many clicks.

Jason Dunn

11-08-2007, 07:34 PM

But my wife? She owns an antique business that doesn't revolve around spreadsheets and word docs. Heck, she doesn't even sync her iPhone to her Mac - she never has. I activated her iPhone on my PC at work. She is not interested in having MP3's on her phone - she has none! She enters phone numbers into her phone by hand, instead of syncing them from Entourage (Mac's version of Outlook). She just wanted a nice phone that works and is easy to use.

I find this *fascinating* because the iPhone is pretty large compared to most of the slender feature phones out there that would do what your wife wanted - and is also more prone to damage (being a wide candybar phone with a touch-screen that needs protecting). If she doesn't sync her iPhone, doesn't use it for media playback...then why an iPhone? Or does this have nothing to do with rationality and everything to do with how pretty the iPhone is? ;-)

Jason Dunn

11-08-2007, 07:36 PM

By the way, GREAT discourse in this thread - it's excellent information for me to bring up at the next Mobius event in Amsterdam later this month...

possmann

11-08-2007, 07:43 PM

I look and answer this question much like I would look and answer a question regarding what type of operating system do you want to use in business?

WM has a lot to learn - Apple has ALWAYS been better in UI, simplicity, ease of use and especially design (take a look at the ugly boxes we deal with on the Windows side compared to Apple's..).

I am not at all surprised at the success of the iPhone and I hope it scares MS enough to continue to move their OS and applications to improve.

As for me though I'm an MS guy - integration, plorifation of applications and use globallyb in personal and business - can't beat it. Can it improve - oh yeah - and I think MS recognizes that with the following examples:

Palm Pilot - Windows Mobile
MAC OS - Vista
iPod - New Zune 2.0

The iPhone is a god-sent to the Windows Mobile marketplace...

figers

11-08-2007, 09:24 PM

It's got a good design as all apple products do and it's tiny, but it doesn't compare to a good windows mobile device. It doesn't have a 3G connection, I couldn't image going back to EDGA, it doesn't have 3rd party apps (I'll see their worth when they come out), you can't replace the battery (so when you travel and you can't plug in you can't toss in a spare battery, battery dies and you have to bring it to an apple store). I own the HTC advantage phone, It's got TV-Out for powerpoint presentations, It syncs over my cellular connection to my exchange server (even syncs my RSS feeds now from Outlook 2007) Skype installed to save money on phone calls anywhere I get wifi, Slingplayer installed to watch TV from anywhere over 3G or Wifi, TomTom for GPS navigation, google maps and Microsoft Live search for location searching, I even have a bittorrent and IRC client running on my device. If you really utilize your windows mobile device the iPhone (aside from it's looks) seems old school

txcas

11-09-2007, 12:04 AM

Apple was definitely very innovative with the iPhone and its user interface. Unfortunately not having 3G makes their device not attractive at all for true business applications. The next version might fix that, but it will also have to fix a lot of other things to make their phones a business class device. Keep in mind that Apple's target market is not the business market, it is consumers that don't know much about technology. Apple does great in that market because most consumers don't know the difference between GPRS and HSDPA, and they don't care. Most consumers like the bling, the coolness factor, and the pretty UI. Businesses on the other hand care about the security of their data and intellectual property, and about the return on the investment they make on mobile devices. They want a device that makes their mobile force more productive. Business email on an iPhone is a security risk for any company. You cannot protect that email and you can not remotely wipe out the iPhone if it gets lost or stolen. The argument that email does not look as it should on a Windows Mobile device, completely takes away any credibility that Chris Pirillo might have. The Sprint Touch device he was testing runs WM6, and it supports HTML email. Email on a WM6 device looks exactly as it looks in Outlook. I would be happy to take Chris on his 3 for one trade any day, I will be happy to trade with him one iPhone for three AT&T Tilts or 3 HTC Kaisers. The HTC Kaiser is a great example of what a business device should be:

1. Secure email.
2. Encryption support on removable storage media.
3. Built-in GPS
4. Touch screen or slide keyboard, your choice.
5. Not locked to any wireless provider.
6. 3G HSDPA support and can be used as a wireless modem for laptop users.
7. Built-in WIFI
8. Media player - supports video and music
9. Support for Office documents and PDF documents.
10. Open platform with applications to manage pretty much anything; from hospital patients, to tuning pianos.
11. VoIP support.
12. I could go on…

I paid less than $200 for the Tilt. The more I use it, the more I feel people are getting screwed when the buy an iPhone. I have no doubt that if Apple wants to get in the business user market, they can do it and they will do it right. Today, they are not even close.

tabi13

11-09-2007, 02:13 AM

TXCAS My Man! Now thats well written. Forget getting pizzas and listening to music. Bring ANYONE who claims that the iPhone is a better business device and tell him to negate TXCAS' list of pros in favour of WM devices.
Having said that TXCAS I dont even need a 3 to 1 trade. I will buy Chris an iPhone for just 1 HTC Kaiser (TYTN II) (and that offer is up for ANY iPhone supporter. Any takers? Didnt think so...)

eugarps

11-09-2007, 03:11 AM

All,

After many years of trying to use my Windows Mobile and Palm Treo phones as notebook replacements, I've given up. I'm a Civil Engineer, so much of my on-the-road work is done by accessing my office desktop remotely. I cannot, realistically, do AutoCAD on my office machine using a smartphone, no matter how sophisticated. I've tried using various Windows Mobile CAD products with minimal success and forget doing hydraulics and hydrology on anything but a notebook.

This, for this "business user," something a bit more functional than a RAZR, is just the ticket and the smaller the better. So, even though I still am using my Treo, I'm strongly considering an iPhone for my next phone. Since my home system is a G5 Mac, I'm pretty familiar with OS 10 and there will be no problem with syncing.

From at least one "business user."

Best,

Bill

Docwiz

11-09-2007, 04:44 AM

After many years of trying to use my Windows Mobile and Palm Treo phones as notebook replacements, I've given up.

So if you can't do what you want with a WM or Palm, how do you plan to do this with a closed platform which is even less flexible?

It's great that the iphone is slick and quick to get to things, but what about the programs that are not included. What about missing functionality?

What about not being limited to a really horrible service such as AT&T?

iphone is nice, but it has a long way to go before I would purchase one.

1) Has to be available on networks such as Sprint and Verizon (I pay for quality, no dropped phone calls).

2) Has to have expandability and flexiblity with software. Should be easy to develop for and an open platform. I want to customize my own interface for the iphone, I want to build applications easily from Visual Studio or other IDE/languages and be able to sell or put them out as open source and free.

3) Has to have the same features that I can already get on phones like the Tilt or Mogul.

4) I want the software library to be expanded so I can try different things and do things like Remote Terminal to my PC. It should have an expansive software library.

Windows Mobile already offers features that are the same (ie. DeepFish and Opera web browsers) and can already do the same touch stuff through a huge selection of programs.

Having the software I want to run is why I don't buy macs.
I love to have the freedom to run what I want to run and have
the ability to do it. I don't want to have to run applications that Apple tells me it is okay to run on my phone.

I don't mind the iphone and I think it is great to turn some attention on the PDA/phone market and I encourage Apple to come to this market and compeition makes things better, but iphone has a long way to go before I would even think about buying one and like I said, there are more negatives and positives about one for me right now.

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

eugarps

11-09-2007, 05:13 AM

Docwiz,

I'm saying I'm not going to use any of the features on WM or Treo like Word or Excel. I've had those functions on my expensive toys for years and never really used them to any great extent. Unlike most on this forum, I'm not a power user. I just want to make calls, check my email, and text with relative ease. I carry a Thinkpad X61 for the rest. I find I have plenty of time in airport WiFi areas to get more serious about 'work' than I ever could on a smartphone. I'm not arguing with anyone but having used an HP200LX, various Palms, WinCE, then WM 5, I've declared the arms race over and going back to the simple life. It probably won't work for 99% of the folks here but it does for me.

Best,

Bill

11-09-2007, 03:08 PM

Mark Larson

11-09-2007, 06:43 PM

whydidnt

11-09-2007, 10:32 PM

goofy166

11-09-2007, 11:21 PM

I've been an avid Pocket PC and SmartPhone user since they came on the market. I have used at least 10 WM PDAs and phones.

I have an iPhone as well and use it a lot.

Recently I bought a Samsung i730 from Verizon. WHAT IS MICROSOFT DOING UP THERE. This phone is a freaking disaster. Syncing it is almost impossible becuase of the terrible design of ActiveSync. Search the net and there are hundreds of messages about syncing issues.

The iPhone is not a business device as many have pointed out.

But once you have used one (for at least a few weeks) its almost impossible to use a PPC and not laugh and then cry at what an opportunity Microsoft missed. I will never go back to a PPC unless it matches the Mac (I mean iPhone) interface.

The days of Windows Mobile are nearing an end. Look at what HP did with there entire line of PPCs. Sure HTC and others will make devices with features of the iPhone but until they stop relying on the Windows Mobile OS they will never work anywhere as good as an iPhone.

Chris was right on but he held back. This is a serious stake in the heart of Windows for devices. Jobs will slowly open it up to 3rd party apps and every PPC developer will jump on it. He'll allow there to be external keyboards and eventually will build in a slider. The guy just hates buttons and so do I.

Mitch

unxmully

11-09-2007, 11:50 PM

"Better business device" my @ss. Maybe if you're an IT support monkey.

Are you serious? I can see where the iPhone can work as a business device for some people. But do you really think the iPhone is a better business device than a WM6 converged device with true push email and a built in hard-keyboard?

I'm based in London and we seem to have a very different definition of a "business phone" over here. For example, the IT consultancy I work for doesn't provide phones so we all use what works for us, mainly SE and Nokia from what I can see.

I'm currently working at a large Oil company. Which does provide some Blackberrys and is pretty open about people using WM/PPC but doesn't provide them.

So my experience is that apart from the Blackberry which seems to be the provided device of choice, you can use anything as a business phone - SE K800i, iPhone, N95 whatever. Oh, and I saw my first Windows Mobile device in the office today for a long time.

My point is, the business market is not one size fits all and unless companies provide mobile phones as part of the job, and my last three permanent roles in London haven't provided a phone, I'm going to chose what suits me.

If you read my earlier comments, I think the iPhone can make a decent business device for SOME, but I don't see too many ways on could say it's a BETTER business device.

Spot on. It's not better, it's different and will work for some not for others. When people don't have a choice forced on them by an employer, they'll use what suits them as a business phone. In my case that's an SE K800i but this time next year when my Orange contract has expired it'll likely be a second generation iPhone.

tabi13

11-10-2007, 12:03 AM

TXCAS My Man! Now thats well written. Forget getting pizzas and listening to music. Bring ANYONE who claims that the iPhone is a better business device and tell him to negate TXCAS' list of pros in favour of WM devices.

Are you for real?

Really, truly for real?

Just how many people are you trying to alienate with that comment?

"Better business device" my @ss. Maybe if you're an IT support monkey.

Right... VERY intelligent! I love how many valid points you have mentioned with well thought out arguments to support them. You really seem to have understood what "intelligent" discussion was all about. Did you research your overwhelming volume of material?

Pete Wilson

11-10-2007, 12:53 AM

Contacts on the iPhone: You don't have to scroll - there is an alphabet down the RHS, just tap to jump to that letter. When you do scroll, it is similar to a Logitech MX Revolution mouse - you snap the screen, it scrolls and you tap to stop. Simple and elegant.

Newton: The Newton 2000 is still the best PDA I've ever used.

My latest PDA is an iPAQ 5500 - I never upgraded past that due to lack of biometric security or compelling features. It recently lost USB sync with my PC, stopped charging through USB and crashed. When I recharged it, it still is an unrecognized device and lost all information and programs. I plugged in my Newton and turned it on after sitting on the shelf for two years, found some information I needed in 20 seconds and turned it back off. PocketPC has been such a pain on it that I stopped carrying it.

The iPhone is a better SmartPhone than a WM device because it does limited things well. The WM device tries to be a small computer and does very little well. Especially out of the box.

iPhone SDK: OS X programming is based on an Object-Oriented framework called Cocoa programmed in Objective-C. It is done with a free visual designed called XCode. The iPhone uses a version of Cocoa for programming, and if the iPhone SDK works with the XCode environment, it will definitely give C#/Visual Studio/Compact Framework a run for their money. And it runs fast and is low power/lightweight compared to CF which is what a portable device needs.

rlieving

11-10-2007, 05:08 AM

WM is terrible.

As a PPC-6700 owner and longtime WM owner, I am glad to see these posts.

WM5 is horrible. First, there is the 'hidden' expenses to make the phone usable. PocketInformant (because, let's face it, the out of the box interface stinks as bad as Palm), Opera (because PIE is terrible), SK Tools (because I don't have time to clean up what WM cannot), MS Voice Command (because the interface is so laborious that without MS Voice Command I would surely chuck the thing in the Chicago River), and SPB Pocket Plus/Mobile Shell (again to make the interface tolerable).

And who at Microsoft thought that 8 hours of battery life (when using some internet) would be acceptable? As a frequent traveler, I am constantly annoyed that I have to RACE to the wall socket to make sure I don't run out of juice before the end of the day.

Syncing? Wow, it works great! But if I let the PPC pick up the mail when it arrives, my battery drains even faster. I had to buy a cradle for work so it can sit there and be an expensive paper-weight. When an email arrives on my PPC, the device wakes up and if it is in the holder on my belt...well...the battery just goes that much faster. Who at Microsoft thought it would be a good idea for a touch screen device to wake up and activate the touch screen when an email arrives? That person should be fired.

I feel like for every advance in 'functionality', there are 2 or 3 things that hold the device back. I HATE IT!

So I was glad to see this post and this conversation. No lie...I called Sprint last week to see when my contract expires. Because when it does, I am going to RUN to the AT&T store and buy the iPhone.

I will NEVER, EVER own a WM phone again. It's horrible! So, you can open and edit Word/Excel on a phone. I rarely do it. I would trade that for battery life any day. So it can sync contacts...I admit this has it's uses, but I can also store them on GMail and look them there.

WM is terrible. The interface is terrible. The costs of ownership are REALLY high. I cannot wait to ditch my PPC-6700 for anything...iPhone (or possibly Blackberry) or maybe even a browser enabled phone that lasts a reasonable amount of time and doesn't drain my wallet, post-purchase.

Everyone who talks about the great 'advances' in technology for WM is fooling themselves. I might miss Voice, but then again, with voice-enabled web services such as Jott or GrandCentral, I probably won't miss it as much as one would think. I certainly won't miss the dead batteries or the 15 steps it takes to dial a number (fixed with SPB Mobile shell, I'll admit), or the fact that when I use the phone it takes 2 EXTRA STEPS TO GET THE KEYPAD BACK!!!!!

Finally, why, or why can I not just push a button to sync my mail? Is it that hard to program? Why isn't there a 3rd party application that does this? It makes no sense, WM makes no sense...believe me, I've spent a lot of time working with it, patience and money trying to get it to work, and now I throw in the towel.

For all the reasons above, I say WM is terrible and I look forward to the sweet release of death for my PPC-6700.

jimtravis

11-10-2007, 07:53 AM

My daily use phone is the PPC-6700, which I enjoy using unlike a previous poster. I looked at the iPhone, but it is missing too many features I want in my Smartphone like a real keyboard, ftp client, text editor, 3G, Bluetooth syncing, ability to edit Office documents, and true databases. I did purchase an iPod touch so I could get extensive hands-on experience with the overhyped touch interface. The iPod touch's interface, and hardware are cool looking. Apple basically took the the 3.5" screen that was available on some Palm / WM PDA's for years, used large icons like the Palm, increased spacing between menu items (a nice feature), incorporated glitzy eye candy transitions, and wrapped it in a sleek looking device. Safari is nice, but I have mobile devices with third party browsers (Opera / NetFront) that render full web pages just as well as Safari, and the much aligned Pocket IE's one column layout option sometimes renders readable webpages with less effort than Safari. If a page is formatted in columns, Safari does an excellent job with double tap zoom. If a page is not formatted in columns, too much double tapping, horizontal scrolling, and pinching may be required to get a readable web page. I have also encountered web pages where double tap zoom did not work with Safari. The only way to zoom was pinching, which I dislike more everytime I am forced to use it.

After using the iPod touch extensively, I am not impressed with scrolling by finger, or multitouch zoom. Yes, those two features will impress the coffee shop crowd, but I find them to be glitz designed more to impress than be productive. I much prefer scrolling using the hard navigation buttons on my other devices than the finger scrolling on the iPod touch. Although it looks cool in the iPhone, and iPod touch commercials, the constant finger scrolling necessary to read webpages gets old very quickly. I can also find a contact just as fast on my PPC 6700 using my finger as I can on the iPod touch which has the same app as the iPhone. It would be nice if the alpha index at the top of the contacts listing on the PPC-6700 had larger text, but I can tap the correct letters with minimum effort. I do like the increased space between menu items on the iPod touch.

The iPhone is cool, and sexy looking, but I will take a less attractive, bulkier device that has a slide-out keyboard, wireless syncing, replaceable battery, 3G, and proven third party apps any day. I am looking for a device that does what I want, not a fashion accessory.

In 2004, I purchased a Sony Clie TH55 PDA that had a 3.5"- 320 x 480 screen, WiFi, Bluetooth, camera, wireless syncing (both WiFi, and Bluetooth) and a NetFront browser that rendered full intermet pages extremely well. It may have problems with pages that incorporate more recent standards, but it did a real nice job with 2004 HTML standards. I have also had excellent web surfing experiences using NetFront on WM PDA's. The Toshiba e830 with its VGA resolution screen, and NetFront for WM was one of my best mobile internet experiences. The TH55, and VGA resolution WM devices also connected with my Bluetooth enabled phones with ease. When Mr. jobs showed the iPhone during his MacWorld keynote, I immediately thought that the iPhone looked a lot like the TH55 that had gone on a diet.

That being said, of course there is room for improvement in WM. I prefer using finger navigation with my PDA's / Smartphones, and have used finger navigation more than a stylus for years. I would welcome larger spacing between menus, and between menu entries in future versions of WM (and third party apps), and of course, would welcome snappier performance. Overall, all my WM devices have been stable, Bluetooth ActiveSync works well (I am syncing databases to the record level), and, although the WM interface needs improvement, I don't dislike it as some earlier posters have indicated they do. I respect the opinion of other posters, I just have a different opinion of the iPhone, and WM devices.

I have an extensive blog posting about the iPhone at:
http://www.jimtravis.com/gadget.html#iphone At the top of that same page, there is an extensive entry comparing the iPod touch to the Archos 605. Safari, multitouch, finger scrolling, and double tapping zoom are included in that posting as well.

whydidnt

11-10-2007, 03:28 PM

WM5 is horrible. First, there is the 'hidden' expenses to make the phone usable. PocketInformant (because, let's face it, the out of the box interface stinks as bad as Palm), Opera (because PIE is terrible), SK Tools (because I don't have time to clean up what WM cannot), MS Voice Command (because the interface is so laborious that without MS Voice Command I would surely chuck the thing in the Chicago River), and SPB Pocket Plus/Mobile Shell (again to make the interface tolerable).

Admittedly, I'm now using WM6, and don't remember where some things have changed, but in the context of this iPhone vs. WM for business debate, I'm not sure I follow your line of thought. The stock PIM apps in WM are pretty comparable functionality wise to those on the iPhone. The advanced features PocketInformant brings are impossible to duplicate on the iPhone as you can't install third party apps. Opera Mini is available for WM, it's free and does a great job of rendering most sites I visit. I've never been a Voice Command user, and don't see the benefits, but I would say at least WM gives you the option to use a program such as this. Where's the voice support on the iPhone?

And who at Microsoft thought that 8 hours of battery life (when using some internet) would be acceptable? As a frequent traveler, I am constantly annoyed that I have to RACE to the wall socket to make sure I don't run out of juice before the end of the day. Unfortunately, the device you are using is generally considered one of the worst WM device as far as battery life, but for a few bucks you could buy a 2nd or even 3rd battery and swap them when your device runs out. If the iPhone's battery drains (and it will) you don't have this option. Hope you have a charger with you when it happens!

Syncing? Wow, it works great! But if I let the PPC pick up the mail when it arrives, my battery drains even faster. I had to buy a cradle for work so it can sit there and be an expensive paper-weight. When an email arrives on my PPC, the device wakes up and if it is in the holder on my belt...well...the battery just goes that much faster.
My WM6 device does NOT do this. When push mail arrives, it gives me an audible warning, but the screen doesn't wake up. I'm not sure if this is a WM6 enhancement or if there is a setting in the notifications applet you can use to changes this behavior.

So I was glad to see this post and this conversation. No lie...I called Sprint last week to see when my contract expires. Because when it does, I am going to RUN to the AT&T store and buy the iPhone.
Man if it's really that bad, just pay the ETF and move on, it's just a phone, your obviously willing spend $400 for an iPhone, what's another couple hundred to be "free"? :wink:

For all the reasons above, I say WM is terrible and I look forward to the sweet release of death for my PPC-6700.

Well, based upon your comments I would say WM isn't the right device for you, you don't seem to have a lot of need for the things WM does well. I still don't understand why you might not try a 2nd battery and just swap when the primary goes bad, that would solve a big issue for you, you've already invested in third party apps that seem to address many of your other concerns and the issue with the screen waking with email arrival has been addressed.

I have several concerns about WM and how slowly MS and their OEM's have been evolving this platform. I've often thought that I would abandoned WM with my next purchase due to concerns that are different but along the same vein as yours. However, at the end of the day, I still haven't found a solution that meets MY needs better than WM, so I've stuck with it. For that reason I'm glad the iPhone is out in the market and hopefully will push MS and it's partners to innovate more quickly. However, the worship of the iPhone many have posted in this thread is incredible. It's funny how many iPhone supporters see this as a "black and white" thing where the iPhone is all powerful and near perfect and WM is the next coming of Satan. I think it just shows how well Apple has connected with peoples emotions by using a pretty interface.

txcas

11-10-2007, 03:38 PM

WM is terrible.
And who at Microsoft thought that 8 hours of battery life (when using some internet) would be acceptable? As a frequent traveler, I am constantly annoyed that I have to RACE to the wall socket to make sure I don't run out of juice before the end of the day.

You should definitely get an iPhone since you fall in the consumer market. You fail to understand that Microsoft did not make your phone; they just wrote the core operating system. The hardware manufacturer designed an 8 hour phone. On top of that the cell company adds a bunch of bloat ware to the phone that sometimes makes the device unstable. When that happens we blame Microsoft. The initial release of the Cingular 8125 was the most bug infected WM device I have ever used. I got rid of all the junk Cingular put on the phone, and it became the first device that really made me more productive when on the road. I still remember the day I was taking my wife to a post surgery doctor appointment I and got email from a customer requesting help. From the doctor's office I was able to reply to the email, ask for more info and logs, extract the compressed logs, open them with Pocket Word, and find the culprit. I was able to provide them with a solution within minutes, and it was completely invisible to them that I was not in my office. That day I realized the value of my WM device and its purpose. I want it as a tool to take care of business. If I wanted to play games, browse the Internet for hours on a tiny screen, watch movies, etc.; I would probably get a PSP.

whydidnt

11-10-2007, 04:08 PM

I'm quoting from PocketNow regarding the iPhone:

"I won’t even compare this to trying to find a contact on an iPhone which does not include any kind of contact search capability at all. Okay, maybe I will... on the iPhone you have to tap the phone icon, the contacts button, flick-scroll for five minutes to find the person you’re looking for, tap their name, then tap their number to make the call. All while looking at the screen since there’s no tactile feedback and no way to build motor memory. "

Is this is accurate? Who in there right mind would say that the iPhone is great for business use, if it is? I've got nearly 500 contacts on my device. Having to scroll through a long list of them to dial one is just insane. I just tried this using a "Touch" interface on my Tilt. Clicked RST, and then scrolled for what seemed like for ever to find the contact that began with an S. If i had to do that every time I looked up a contact I'd rip my fingers off. :twisted:

Docwiz

11-10-2007, 10:58 PM

I was a WM user for 7 years. From the jornada 548 to the iPAQ rx3715. I had two 6315 smartphone ipaqs - And a treo 600 in between. 9 devices total. I loved WM for that time. But NONE of them compared to my nokia e62... or to my next phone, the e61i. :lol: Why? Cause is frustranting to press buttons again and again, cause the interface is 7 years old and almost the same as ppc 2000...

So, i decided not to use any microsoft products anymore... (save windows at work, and it´s a pain :() and i´m happy the way i am now. :twisted:

Let me guess, those phones that you have
use an interface based off the Linux OS?

Geez, some of the trolls on here are transparent.

We get it that you don't like Microsoft, now go play
with your toys and quit trying to post on a forum, nobody
cares that you like linux.

I really wish we could go back to the late 80's and early
90's when the internet did not have people like this.

"I hate Bill gates, I hate Microsoft, I run linux!"
- My answer, who gives a crap. It's like a kid who is trying
to get attention from their parents about nothing.

RogueSpear

11-10-2007, 11:22 PM

Geez, some of the trolls on here are transparent.

We get it that you don't like Microsoft, now go play
with your toys and quit trying to post on a forum, nobody
cares that you like linux.

I really wish we could go back to the late 80's and early
90's when the internet did not have people like this.

"I hate Bill gates, I hate Microsoft, I run linux!"
- My answer, who gives a crap. It's like a kid who is trying
to get attention from their parents about nothing.

So who's the troll here? The fact of the matter is that whether or not you're a fan of Microsoft or not - I consider myself a "recovering Microsoft supporter" - having some competition in the form of the iPhone and potentially from some Linux based handsets can only server to better future offerings from Microsoft.

As a previous poster had mentioned, it is absolutely maddening to see the lackluster efforts Microsoft has made when you know full well what the potential of WM really is. And try to keep in mind that not everybody cares one wit about connecting to an Exchange server or getting roped into any of the Live! offerings.

eugarps

11-13-2007, 12:59 AM

All,

Here's hoping that Microsoft reads this website. I, personally, think some good arguments are being presented in favor of other OSs. Yes this is a Pocket PC site and as such I would expect a number of WM power users to disregard and look at iPhone adopters with disdain. However, I believe Microsoft has provided mediocre upgrades to their OS, because they can. Now, with some serous offerings by Apple and Linux, they can no longer rest on their laurels.

I for one believe the following: A Palm device running Documents to Go is a much more capable Word and Excel platform in a hand held than was my last WM5 device, an HP iPAQ 6945. If I care to, I can compose Word and Excel documents on my Palm Tungsten T|3 with many more formating options than I ever could on my iPAQs.

I've had Palms since the Pilot and Windows CE devices since the Compaq Aero, so I have a pretty broad range of experience. As I said in another forum response recently, I still have and use my HP200LX 32MB Double Speed Pocket PC. That little machine truly is a Pocket PC, since it runs DOS 4.2 really well and I have Word 1.0 running on it along with Lotus 123 which is built in! And how about 40 hours of battery life on 2 AA's?

The evolution of Windows Mobile has stagnated. Yes some newer devices take better advantage of the OS but by-and-large WM6 is not really much of an upgrade from WM5. It fixed a number of bugs in WM5 and, like always, Microsoft managed to get us to pay for the upgrade by buying newer, slicker WM6 machines. I'm out of the arms race until Microsoft comes up with something really new and innovative. My guess is that they won't because they don't have to. HTC and others will continue to tempt us with more and more capable machines and we'll keep buying them and Microsoft will continue to make money from OS license sales.

Please Microsoft, show me something new.

Bill

stsanford

11-13-2007, 06:30 AM

iPhone sure is cool. It looks great, it's slick however:

I consider myself a business user. I have a Palm Treo 750. It's my 8th or 9th Windows Mobile phone. Some of the previous models I remember:
Cingular 8525, 8125
Motorola MPX200
Palm-Based Treos,
Cingular SX 66
yadda yadda....

Anywho,
I use a mobile invoicing program, a time tracking program
I sync my Franklin Covey tasks
I have Pocket Quicken
I use Direct Push

I don't believe the iPhone really can do the above.

I can look up food and locations really easy, it's probably because the Palm interface for WM is slick and includes the search bar (so does Live Search come to think of it) and I dial contacts (I have over 3000) by starting to type their name.

I also use AvantGo and have a number of other programs (Pocket Informant is one) that I use along with the bundled apps.

WM6 has helped with formatting documents as well as e-mails, so I dont' see much of an improvement.

I'm interested but not wooed, I don't trust Apple, I think their socialist and I resent them turning peoples' phones into bricks because they dared to "free them" I can tell you, if I had the iPhone and even though I use AT&T, I would still unlock it. Especially if I bought it the way I buy all of my phones: Unsubsidized...

Nurhisham Hussein

11-13-2007, 09:09 AM

I for one believe the following: A Palm device running Documents to Go is a much more capable Word and Excel platform in a hand held than was my last WM5 device, an HP iPAQ 6945. If I care to, I can compose Word and Excel documents on my Palm Tungsten T|3 with many more formating options than I ever could on my iPAQs.

If comparing against the built-in Office apps, I'd agree. I'm not sure the comparison would hold up with a WM device using Softmaker Office (http://www.softmaker.com/english/). One point in Palm's favour though is that D2Go was usually bundled together with the devices.

Having said that...

Please Microsoft, show me something new.

Amen.

txcas

11-15-2007, 04:32 PM

Do you want to see a good Touch vs. Iphone comparision? Check http://www.wmexperts.com/reviews/smackdowns/htc_touch_vs_iphone_part_2_vid.html.

rlieving

11-27-2007, 04:10 AM

The iPhone is not a business device as many have pointed out.

But once you have used one (for at least a few weeks) its almost impossible to use a PPC and not laugh and then cry at what an opportunity Microsoft missed. I will never go back to a PPC unless it matches the Mac (I mean iPhone) interface.

I took some heat (as I knew I would) for posting 'WM5 is terrible'. I think the above quote says it all. (To be fair, I thought that WhyDidnt was nice...but missed the point.)

I complained about battery life for my PPC-6700, he said 'the device you are using is generally considered one of the worst WM device as far as battery life, but for a few bucks you could buy a 2nd or even 3rd battery and swap them when your device runs out'.

I complained that I had to buy a bunch of extra software to make the thing functional and - gasp - look better than a Palm. I was told 'The stock PIM apps in WM are pretty comparable functionality wise to those on the iPhone.'

I said that I couldn't use my phone for Push email because it wakes up in my pocket and the screen rapidly drains the device. The answer? 'My WM6 device does NOT do this. When push mail arrives, it gives me an audible warning, but the screen doesn't wake up.'

The final argument? Pay more money to move on.

Don't you see? It's not that I feel like the iPhone will do ALL the things my PPC-6700 does...it's just do the things I NEED it to do without a hassle. (Or a Blackberry, but I was trying to keep on task.) All I want it to do is get my email, surf to my mobile sites, and have a decent battery life. I don't care if it's Microsoft's problem or the manufacturer's problem or whoever's problem for selling me this phone, but IT DOESN'T WORK. (For the record, the Q, which is another MSFT disaster has a similar record for battery life.)

I just want a phone that will deliver my email and last more than 24 hours. I don't want to get a phone, only to be told that this one (no others, mind you) has a 'reputation' for bad battery life...or that I need to get a registry cleaner so it keeps running at a decent speed. Once bitten, twice shy. I am now OFF the WM kick. MSFT (or HTC or Audiovox or Motorola, if you want to blame them, although I do not care) has lost me PERMANENTLY as a customer.

Like goofy166, I weep at the missed possibilities.

But I want to leave you with a couple of other reasons WM stinks.

* Why does my phone pad disappear when I make a phone call? Who's idea was it to hide the numbers and go to some other stupid screen that has useless features on it? Haven't the people of Microsoft heard of touch-tone options?

* We established that push mail drains my battery. So why can't I have better power management like the awesome memory management that is the X at the top left part of the screen? Why can't I have one-touch email like people on the Palm instead of navigating through the complex menu structure? (Dare I bring up the non-close/close button?)

* When I push a soft-menu on my phone, why does it go to a disabled menu option (mute)? Why are the menus so complex in the first place?

* Has anyone compared the surface of the iPhone to the surface of a touch-screen like the PPC-6700? Why does it look like I rubbed a french-fry on my screen when I touch it, yet the iPhone looks very clear?

* Who's bright idea was it to activate the screen when email arrives to drain the battery? (Per the previous post, this issue has been resolved in WM6, but that doesn't help ME.)

* Does anyone but me fear losing the back battery door of the PPC-6700? Despite the awesome prospect of spending more money on a product I already hate, I fear the battery door would not last through multi-day swaps.

* Memory, memory, memory. Why do WM apps need so much, yet the devices deliver so very little.
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The bottom line is that the PPC-6700 is an interesting device, but a failed device. It does a lot of things, but not too many of them well. I give MSFT props for awesome wireless syncing ability, but take away almost all the points for terrible battery life.

To the previous poster I will admit that my phone might have a poor reputation for battery life, but NO WM phone (to my knowledge) lasts as long as the iPhone or Blackberry.

I will not predict the end of WM like others. But I can say that arguments of 'just throw more money/buy more hardware/etc' for a deeply flawed product don't carry any water with me. That's why most corporations use Blackberries or Palm OS...they are flawed too, but they better live up to the promise of the software/hardware combination.

This generation of WM devices has hurt the brand - and for good reason. WM is terrible. Nothing the other people have said have convinced me otherwise.

jimtravis

11-27-2007, 06:20 AM

I have a PPC-6700 for 13 months now, and although not perfect, it has met my needs quite well. I use Slingbox, and Pocket IE / Opera extensively, so I do frequently run the battery down. I purchased a spare battery on eBay for $6.50, and regularly swap it out when using the above applications for hours. I have not lost, and have no fear of loosing, the plastic cover.

I do not own an iPhone because it just doesn't do what I need a smartphone to do. I did purchase an iPod touch. When I use Safari extensively on WiFi, the battery drains, and I have no spare battery option like I do with the PPC-6700. Although I have drained the touch's battery when out, overall the touch does have excellent battery life. It did take Apple four versions of the iPod to get the battery life acceptable in their mobile devices.

The touch interface is nice, but grossly overrated in my opinion. The more I use finger scrolling, and multitouch zooming, the more I dislike those features. They look cool in the commercials, but got old very quickly for me, and are not the quickest way to accomplish what I want. I have used the PocketPlus add-on for WM for years, and the newest version supports finger scrolling as well. Don't like it there either.

For me, the contacts app on the PPC-6700 is fine. I don't have any 3rd party contact app because the built-in app works fine for me. The contacts on the touch is ok, but not better for what I need than the PPC-6700. I have tried a friend's iPhone to ensure the contact application is similar to the iPod touch.

Safari is nice on the touch as long as you are viewing pages formatted in columns. NetFront on Palm OS and WM have displayed full internet pages quite well for long before the iPhone was introduced, and the latest version of Opera work well on WM as well. NetFront on a Clie TH55 in 2004, did a nice job displaying full internet pages. The TH55 still does a nice display job, but does not support standards introduced after 2004. The problem with Safari is when you view an older webpage not formatted in columns. When you double tap to zoom the page to a readable text size, it does not work, so you have to do the multitouch pinch. When you use the multitouch pinch to zoom a single column page, the page does not wordwrap, and you have to horizontal scroll to read every line which gets old after about 1 line. The default view in Pocket IE wordwraps those older webpages fine, as does every desktop browser I have used (including Safari desktop), and other mobile browsers.

The iPhone, and its sibling the iPod touch, are definitely sexy, elegant, and thin devices. The iPhone just has too many feature deficiencies to be my main smartphone, at least version 1. Overall, my experience with the PPC-6700 has been positive, and I use databases, spreadsheets, slingbox, ftp clients, html editors, and other third party apps regularly.

Although the iPhone / iPod touch interface is slick, and sexy, I have no problem switching among the PPC-6700, touch, and Palm OS devices. Although slick, I am just not that impressed with Apple's mobile interface, and actually now dislike the finger scrolling, and pinching. I do not find myself wishing my other mobile devices had Apple's interface.

If the iPhone meets your needs, and you enjoy using multitouch, finger scrolling etc, then I wish you the best of luck with the device. I intend on keeping my PPC-6700 at least until my current Sprint contact expires. At that time I will evaluate what is available. If the contract were expiring now, I would purchase a WM6 device such as the Tilt or HTC Touch.

rlieving

11-29-2007, 03:54 AM

I think most people have made good points about the iPhone not doing everything a WM phone does.

I just want the following 'features':
* Make phone calls - and make it easy to call
* Get email
* Look at my calendar
* Get to my mobile websites
* Store passwords
* Be easy on the eyes
* Have a reasonable battery life (because a dead device can't do any of the above)

To the person who pointed out that voice is not available on the iPhone I say, good point. I'm not watching TV, am content to email my Google Docs account (or blog) to make 'documents', I'm not logging into servers. In fact, I would say I'm more representative of the average
WM user than people who do all those things. And that spells trouble for MSFT.
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RE: Battery.
The PPC-6700 is known to have a very weak and ineffective battery door. Mine slides off quite frequently. I had to tape my previous door on before trading it in (with Sprint's insurance). I HAVE 2 (maybe even 3) batteries, but this swapping batteries is not a viable long-term solution as I think it will make the door problem even worse.

I should not have to swap batteries twice a day to receive emails on my device. WM5 is flawed in that the device 'Wakes Up' and starts draining my battery even more.

To the person who said that most devices do not have this problem, I wanted to leave this link.

http://www.mydigitallife.info/2006/11/09/prolong-and-extend-battery-life-of-windows-mobile-5-devices-by-enabling-power-management/#comment-424026

I tried these registry hacks to extend my battery life and they had no noticeable impact. Many other devices have the same problem - please read comments below the post.